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Catherina

(35,568 posts)
Sat May 18, 2013, 12:48 PM May 2013

4 Board Members of Enne Superstores Arrested in Venezuela for Food Hoarding

Northwestern Venezuela, especially the extreme northwestern state of Zulia, is an anti-Chavez stronghold, noted for its opposition. It borders Colombia to the east and the state of Tachira (another opposition heavy town) to the south. It's an import/export zone with lots of smuggling activities.

Supermarket executives arrested

By Manuel Hernandez Z.
Saturday, 18 May 2013

Company sources confirmed the arrest of William Chacin, Enzo Chacin and two others not identified. The arrest occurred after a subpoena from the Public Ministry. The representatives of the chain remain in custody of the GNB near the Port of Maracaibo

(Picture not showing here)
The arrest of the four executives happened the day after a supervisory committee seized 50 tons of food. (File: Vannyver Viloria)

...

The incident comes a day after officials from Zulia's Ministry of Security and Public Order, and from the Public Ministry and the Institute for the Defense of People's Access to Goods and Services (Indepabis), visited two stores of the chain and seized 50 tons of hoarded food.

...

Noris Marquez, Indepabis regional representative, stated that no fine was imposed on the chain that day but he mentioned Articles 111 and 112 of the Law on Defense of People's Access to Goods and Services (Depabis). He highlighted article114, which states that illegal hoarding shall be punished severely. "The case has been transferred to the criminal branch. There have to be criminal sanctions," he told our newspaper.

Inventory stored

Among the items confiscated on Thursday by the supervisory committee, there were 7,700 liters of oil, 441 sacks of precooked corn flour, six thousand kilos of sugar, 50 boxes of margarine, 12,000 cases of toothpaste and 450 units of bathroom soap bars.

http://www.laverdad.com/economia/27698-detienen-a-directivos-de-supermercado.html


In another article about this seizure, Jairo Ramirez, Secretary of Public Safety and Public Order, stated: "The hoarding was of staples such as milk, sugar, flour, rice, cooking oil and margarine, items that were hoarding in quantities above the 20 day supply limit."

Some pictures from this incident











https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.620856224609363.1073741867.140256176002706&type=1

Thousands of kilos of sugar, hundreds of sacks of precooked cornflour, cooking oil etc no wonder the opposition *cares* so much that common people had to wait 8 hours in line just to get sugar, cornflour and other goods
48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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4 Board Members of Enne Superstores Arrested in Venezuela for Food Hoarding (Original Post) Catherina May 2013 OP
Supermarkets have warehouses naaman fletcher May 2013 #1
Wow, from obtuse denial to unsubstantiated ct woo, all in one post! Warren Stupidity May 2013 #2
I see, naaman fletcher May 2013 #3
Hey, you know what else causes shortages? ocpagu May 2013 #7
in every case naaman fletcher May 2013 #8
Yep, Polar had something to do with this. joshcryer May 2013 #28
Over 1000 tons of basic foods seized, 6000 kilos of chicken in downtown Maracaibo (Zulia), Catherina May 2013 #4
Very worth the time investigating. Since they won't consider their fellow Venezuelans, Judi Lynn May 2013 #5
Just like our multimillion dollar exploiters need some encouragement Catherina May 2013 #9
Maybe they should sell business and leave? Socialistlemur May 2013 #31
Video report of the confiscation in the 2 Enne stores. Manufactured "shortages" Catherina May 2013 #6
Stores which actually corner the market on essentials & don't deal fairly Judi Lynn May 2013 #10
I have to wonder - why would these distributors hoard? I can think of a few reasons. Flatulo May 2013 #11
Also, naaman fletcher May 2013 #12
No. If anything, they've demonstrated a staggering level of incompetence about all things monetary. Flatulo May 2013 #13
? ocpagu May 2013 #14
Well, in my relatively uneducated opinion, the government of VZ has taken a decidedly Marxist Flatulo May 2013 #15
Being so white, they are "incredibly industrious." Say, that's good news! Judi Lynn May 2013 #16
Fuck their skin color, look at their GDP! Flatulo May 2013 #18
Well, I'm familiar with Latin American private sector complaints... ocpagu May 2013 #17
Beautiful. We do know you know exactly what you're saying. Thanks. n/t Judi Lynn May 2013 #19
I'm not an advocate of laissez-faire capitalism, and the European social democracies Flatulo May 2013 #21
I think it's more the case that those who've relocated here are less risk-averse and thus less Flatulo May 2013 #22
Perhaps... ocpagu May 2013 #24
The adjusted GDP closely tracks the price of oil. It's not like they increased their productivity, Flatulo May 2013 #25
Oh, I almost forgot. ocpagu May 2013 #20
My initial impressions of Chavez were indeed shaped by mainstream media depictions, and Flatulo May 2013 #23
2 would make no sense for the company, of course. joshcryer May 2013 #29
I don't think the state is asking them to pay less. They're allowed to make a profit, but a fair one Catherina May 2013 #32
It's more than 20 items naaman fletcher May 2013 #33
Looks like it covers 616 items: joshcryer May 2013 #36
"The controlled price for toilet paper is $8.20(USD) for 12 rolls." naaman fletcher May 2013 #34
Is there any genuine competition in the retail Flatulo May 2013 #48
k/r Dawson Leery May 2013 #26
Hang a few CEOs mwrguy May 2013 #27
Do you work to just break even? If I pay for your gas and Flatulo May 2013 #30
They can still make a profit. Catherina May 2013 #37
I'm glad you agree that a reasonable profit is not a bad thing. People need some incentive Flatulo May 2013 #39
The problems is the different definitions of reasonable Catherina May 2013 #41
"400% ? That's price-gouging" naaman fletcher May 2013 #42
I more or less agree with you on executive compensation and corporate governance. Flatulo May 2013 #43
FWIW naaman fletcher May 2013 #44
Abso-fucking-lutely. Flatulo May 2013 #45
Why do we need stock portfolios? What's wrong with good old-fashioned pension plans? Catherina May 2013 #46
Pension plans are great, if you can find them anymore in the private sector. Of course, the Flatulo May 2013 #47
Canada has the right idea on medicine. Most of their medicines are under price controls Catherina May 2013 #35
Yes, shelter and water as well mwrguy May 2013 #38
Manufacturing drugs is relatively straightforward. It's the massive R&D that goes into bringing Flatulo May 2013 #40
 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
1. Supermarkets have warehouses
Sat May 18, 2013, 12:52 PM
May 2013

news at 11.

EDITED TO ADD:

Now we know the deal Maduro struck with Polar. Take out all Polar competition. I wonder what percent of the profits Maduro is getting.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
2. Wow, from obtuse denial to unsubstantiated ct woo, all in one post!
Sat May 18, 2013, 01:04 PM
May 2013

Even for our small cadre of Latin American rightwing enthusiasts, that is pretty spectacular.

 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
8. in every case
Sat May 18, 2013, 03:09 PM
May 2013

where governments who don't know econ 101 and they cause shortages they ALWAYS blame hoarding.

Now, think this through a bit: What could this grocery store gain by hoarding? Remember, the stuff was in their warehouse so they paid for it.

They are out good money to just let products rot in their warehouse. To what end? OK, maybe they want to bring down the government. So they keep product in their warehouse. What happens then? People go to other stores and buy from there and they lose market share.

None of it makes sense.

What would happen in the US if Walmart did that? People would go to target. OK, maybe target wouldn't be prepared so there would be shortages for a few weeks as Target has to double it's orders from suppliers, but that's it. Just a few weeks. Meanwhile Walmart would have run itself out of business.

It doesn't make sense. It doesn't happen. It is basic economics.

The far more likely scenario is that these guys simply had a warehouse, and maduro needs someone to blame. Of course, Maduro just made a deal with Polar so a different scapegoat had to be found.

None of it makes sense if you know econ 101.


EDITED TO ADD: To be clear, hoarding can cause short run supply problems, but not long run. The hoarding causes prices to shoot up, causing producers to produce more which fixes the problem.

joshcryer

(62,269 posts)
28. Yep, Polar had something to do with this.
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:41 AM
May 2013

They were accused just a few days ago, as the OP well knows. Now they found a good scapegoat. I even said that if Polar was behind it there would be arrests. That sort of thing is illegal even here.

Looking at this case, it's clear it's a small time thing if that, and at worst was a real operation on the black dollar market.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
4. Over 1000 tons of basic foods seized, 6000 kilos of chicken in downtown Maracaibo (Zulia),
Sat May 18, 2013, 01:20 PM
May 2013

6000 kilos of chicken confiscated in downtown Maracaibo. 600 government officials conducting inspections
may 16, 2013

The Secretary of Security and Public Order in Zulia state, Jairo Ramirez, reported that a total of 600 staff are inspecting the Simon Bolivar Market, located in the historic center of the city and so far have seized several sacks of sugar, oil , flour, rice, diapers.



Also during the inspection six thousand kilos of chicken that were in a truck cellar were confiscated. Vivian Olivera, regional coordinator explained that SADA was confiscated due to irregularities in the transportation: "The transportation documents had one route but this was diverted". The chickens will be sold at regulated prices tomorrow, pointed Olivera.

For his part, Secretary of Security and Public Order state appealed to all traders to work according to the law: "I call on to all traders and entrepreneurs to sell products according to law, those who adhere to the law will have no problem. "

He mentioned that this is all part of Operation "Antibachaqueo" that began this week in which ​​over a thousand tons of basic foods have been seized: "The plan has been implemented as it was designed, everything we've found was a shortage item, "said Ramirez.

...



http://noticiaaldia.com/2013/05/600-funcionarios-inspeccionan-mercado-simon-bolivar-en-el-centro-de-maracaibo/

Judi Lynn

(160,515 posts)
5. Very worth the time investigating. Since they won't consider their fellow Venezuelans,
Sat May 18, 2013, 01:39 PM
May 2013

they will be needing some encouragement to get honest, and honorable for a change.

If business owners don't feel they can make the profits they prefer doing business legally, maybe they are not well suited to legitimate business, and should consider dropping the pretension of legitimacy, and simply become full time criminals, and run the risk of spending the rest of their pathetic lives in prison.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
9. Just like our multimillion dollar exploiters need some encouragement
Sat May 18, 2013, 03:49 PM
May 2013

I hope the Venezuelan people never see the kinds of headlines you see in the US about rising food, healthcare, housing and tuition prices that never factor in multimillion dollar bonuses, salaries and price-fixing (like this example or these)

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
31. Maybe they should sell business and leave?
Mon May 20, 2013, 05:03 PM
May 2013

I don't know, but it seems tat country sure is having a crisis. If I were a shop owner I would sell it and leave. Or maybe close it and open a bingo parlour.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
6. Video report of the confiscation in the 2 Enne stores. Manufactured "shortages"
Sat May 18, 2013, 02:41 PM
May 2013

Last edited Fri May 31, 2013, 12:43 PM - Edit history (2)

The inspection took place in the wee hours between Wednesday night and Tuesday morning



Milk, sugar, rice, oil, margarine....


It's all very planned.



First barely stock the shelves with certain items keeping these shortage items in storerooms instead, then cause a run on the markets (this is the famous bachaqueo) (with a dash of smuggler friends swooping in too for good measure)





Then broadcast the manufactured plight to the world with pictures like this crying that there are no supplies!



Lol. The picture below, again from Maracaibo, was taken early Wednesday morning after the government sent in 600 officials to conduct *surprise inspections* on these border areas where Uribe swore he'd attack Chavez from. Sacks of flour, oil, milk, mayonaise, coffee and (surprise surprise) toilet paper, all of it over the 20 day supply limit permitted in warehouses



And the same right wing *business* community that causes so many problems in the US, blames the government for the lack of love they feel from the little people. It's the same scam everywhere, like Enron's artificial gas shortages where hospitals had to rely on generators and streetlights on busy expressways weren't working and people died in car accidents for greed.

The toilet paper was a cute touch but it's not fooling anyone except those who think they're fooling anyone with their talk of how great the Free Market is and if Venezuela would only play ball, they'd have plenty of... toilet paper. No free education, no housing, no free healthcare, no strong labor laws, but they'll have... toilet paper lol.

Make them scream

Judi Lynn

(160,515 posts)
10. Stores which actually corner the market on essentials & don't deal fairly
Sun May 19, 2013, 03:26 AM
May 2013

need to be put out of business the moment their real motives are revealed.

This is a crime against the society itself, not the government they want to overturn, They need to be removed from their weapons immediately.

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
11. I have to wonder - why would these distributors hoard? I can think of a few reasons.
Sun May 19, 2013, 07:30 AM
May 2013

1. The State is asking them to sell goods below the price they paid for them.
2. There is a concerted conspiracy to destabilize the government and create social unrest.
3. A twenty-day stockpile is simply unreasonable for logistical and planning purposes.

As for 1), selling goods below your cost guarantees self-destruction. Is the State asking private retailers to do this? If so, then I can understand their holding out for a higher price., everyone needs to make at least a small profit to stay in business.

I suppose 2) is possible, although cartels are usually undone by one or more members breaking ranks, then the whole scheme falls apart.

Item 3) - I have no way of knowing this. If retail distributors cannot get a good price for a less than twenty-day supply, then I can see them ordering in larger quantities to get a better price, and holding some back so as not to run afoul of the law.

I eagerly await more information about this matter.

 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
12. Also,
Sun May 19, 2013, 08:24 AM
May 2013

Who is making the calculation of a 20 day supply? Do you trust that chavistas, who we know have never taken econ 101, are able to make the simple calculation of what a 20 day supply is?

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
13. No. If anything, they've demonstrated a staggering level of incompetence about all things monetary.
Sun May 19, 2013, 11:51 AM
May 2013

Like all Marxists, they need to rely on force to get the producers to hand over their wealth for less than it cost to create. That's easy to do if you a) don't produce anything and b) have all the guns.

I absolutely love it when Marxists decry the material wealth and prosperity of others, when their only goal is to transfer it to themselves without all the bother and fuss of having to produce it. LOL.

Look at the picture of those "inspectors" who are out in droves confiscating toilet paper. It would be funny if it weren't so tragic. Expect the laws and penalties for these "hoarders" and enemies of the state to increase exponentially as VZ slides further towards the inevitable failure that faces all Marxist economies".

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
15. Well, in my relatively uneducated opinion, the government of VZ has taken a decidedly Marxist
Sun May 19, 2013, 01:55 PM
May 2013

tilt starting with Chavez. At least their actions strike me as Marxist. Collectivism, redistributionism, central planning of the economy, the vilification of private property owners and other capitalists, and expropriation and nationalization of major industries.

They seem to have a major flaw that other Marxist states have suffered from - idolization of the head of state. I know that is not a tenet of Marxism, but it always seems to take a powerful, if not outright totalitarian, figure to implement the wrenching changes needed to transition from a colonial society to a socialist or communist one.

This is not to say that all centrally planned economies are failures, or that there aren't some things that the government can't do better than the private sector. Some examples are air and water and possibly energy resources. But the private sector with its robust competition and strong profit motive is needed if you want to enjoy large screen TVs and iPods and BMWs.

I spent my entire career as an engineer working with people from the former Soviet bloc, and they all had very interesting stories to tell about how people devolve into uninspired drones under a system that guarantees them employment and basic resources for living but not much else, no matter how hard one strives. Shortages are a fact of life as fewer and fewer people produce beyond the bare minimum. It's an all-around pretty bleak and shitty existence.

I'm talking about colleagues from Russia, Poland, Serbia, Albania, Romania, etc. Now these were all educated people, so maybe they had more natural drive than others, but to the last one, they all loathed their homelands and considered themselves very fortunate to have made it to the States and would never return in a million years.

So that's my basic education on Marxism. If I'm wildly off-base, please educate me. But I've known enough expats to have formed a strong opinion about the matter.

Now, on the other hand, I've also worked with colleagues from Denmark, Finland and Germany, and they all loved their home societies. Strong private sector with high taxes and a good social safety net works well for them. They're also incredibly industrious people who work like maniacs until its time to go home, then they don't work another minute. They also poll as the happiest people on earth, for what it's worth.

Judi Lynn

(160,515 posts)
16. Being so white, they are "incredibly industrious." Say, that's good news!
Sun May 19, 2013, 03:42 PM
May 2013

That's a real education in a post.

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
18. Fuck their skin color, look at their GDP!
Sun May 19, 2013, 04:40 PM
May 2013

You act as if there is no other attribute besides skin color that defines a culture. Fuck that rascist shit. You've been doing that schtick for years now and it's unimaginitive.

Germany was completely and utterly pulverized in 2 world wars yet today is an economic superpower. Why is that? Use your imagination.

 

ocpagu

(1,954 posts)
17. Well, I'm familiar with Latin American private sector complaints...
Sun May 19, 2013, 03:55 PM
May 2013

They L-O-V-E to blame "the government" for everything - from "high taxes" (LOL) to labor rights - and preach about neoliberalism and how satanic the state intervention in economy is...

But the truth is: most of them are incompetent, lazy, and hypocritical. If they were living in a "economically liberal" country (savage capitalism) as they desire so much, most of them would be out of business already - except for the financial sector, maybe. At the first sign of a crisis in their business, they immediately forget their "bla-bla-bla" about the diabolic state intervention and beg their governments to... use the "worthless", "unproductive" working class' money to save their asses...

Crocodile tears. The private sector in Venezuela won't convince anyone that they were in better conditions prior to Chávez election, with almost 100% annual inflation, anemic domestic market with a decadent purchasing power, high unemployment, etc. That's why I say it doesn't make any sense to call Venezuela a "marxist" or "communist" country. What kind of marxist revolution makes the private sector become stronger than they were previously? The "savage capitalism" policies are those that almost destroyed the private sector in Venezuela - and elsewhere in Latin America. The same in Brazil. The private sector keeps yelling about how the Workers' Party is destroying the Brazilian economy, when the truth is they have never made as much money as now! I know the script.

As for immigrants... I would be careful with generalizations. The Brazilian community in Florida is very, very different from the Brazilian community in Massachusetts, for example. I assume your colleagues are engineers, also. I don't know about Eastern Europe, but the huge majority of engineers from Brazil are hardcore right-wingers. Perhaps you would hear different accounts from Polish teachers?

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
21. I'm not an advocate of laissez-faire capitalism, and the European social democracies
Sun May 19, 2013, 05:07 PM
May 2013

are not either. I believe they're far more regulated than those in the US, especially after a series of embarrassing corporate governance scandals in the eighties and nineties. We've just barely survived a brush with three decades of deregulation, so please don't assume that I'm an Ayn Rand libertarian.

I worked for a Danish company (Vestas Wind Systems) and their processes all stress the highest levels of ethical behavior imaginable. Being even slightly disingenuous with customers, coworkers or business partners will get you immediately fired. You are requird to be honest, even when honesty would harm the business or cost money.

Now, I can't explain away private sector problems in Brazil, or anywhere for that matter. But I have observed that the Euro states that I mentioned are thriving, and Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy are all on life support.

I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on why countries so geographically close to each other are experiencing such drastically different outcomes. My opinion? The failing states have oversized and ineffective governments that are sucking up resources and giving back nothing in return. I mean, there must be some optimum size for the government, right?

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
22. I think it's more the case that those who've relocated here are less risk-averse and thus less
Sun May 19, 2013, 07:06 PM
May 2013

dependent on assistance to survive, rather than professional status. Perhaps it's tied in with the predisposition towards curiosity and challenge that risk-takers seem to intrinsically possess. Either way, I have known LA engineers from Bolivia and Brazil, and they were indeed quite conservative. I don't know any Venezuelans.

As to LA's per capita GDP and growth rates pre and post colonial influence and pre and post socialist reforms, I'd like to see the data. And if there was growth, how does one decouple it from the sale of petroleum, most of which was certainly extracted by Western interests? By all accounts, as the state has assumed greater control of the oil, production as dropped. Can you refute this?

 

ocpagu

(1,954 posts)
24. Perhaps...
Sun May 19, 2013, 08:15 PM
May 2013

... but I think this reflects classism in Latin America. Higher education was pretty much restricted and elitist not so long ago in Latin America. Most engineering student attending public universities still come from the upper classes, and private engineering courses are expensive. This may change in the future since governments are expanding the offer of public courses and financing students from lower classes. But so far, this persists: professionals such as engineering, doctors, lawyers, economists tend to be more conservative, while the working class, Humanities academics, and professionals devoted to public or social service (teachers, social workers, historians, etc.) tend to be more progressive.

As for growh rates, here are the charts of Venezuela's GDP growth from 1998 to 2008:





 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
25. The adjusted GDP closely tracks the price of oil. It's not like they increased their productivity,
Sun May 19, 2013, 11:02 PM
May 2013

at least it's not shown in this data.



Regarding my LA engineer buddies, yes, they were very much of European descent. Shame really, as we need more diversity in engineering. It's currently dominated by male whites and Asians. I met very few African-American engineers, and only a few Puerto Rican.

 

ocpagu

(1,954 posts)
20. Oh, I almost forgot.
Sun May 19, 2013, 05:07 PM
May 2013
"They seem to have a major flaw that other Marxist states have suffered from - idolization of the head of state. I know that is not a tenet of Marxism, but it always seems to take a powerful, if not outright totalitarian, figure to implement the wrenching changes needed to transition from a colonial society to a socialist or communist one."

It has nothing to do with marxism per se, most totalitarian figures come from the right. Powerful figures are needed to implement totalitarian states. And Chávez was a strong leader, definitely, but the opposite of a totalitarian. A totalitarian wouldn't held 17 elections and referenda, including calling the people to decide, in the middle of his term, if they wanted him to continue. A totalitarian also wouldn't call the people to build, vote and referend their constitution.

As for 'idolization', a lot of people link it only to the Stalinist-style propaganda. But there is a much more efficient idolization being used for a long time in favor of the American 'establishment', conducted by entertainment and media groups, that seems to seek the acceptance of specific cultural patterns and "half-truths".

Hollywood movies and TV series will always portray CIA as a legion of heroes saving the planet from nuclear attacks, terrorists, communists, Russians, druglords, aliens, evil businessmen, corrupt politicians, instead of doing what they do in real life, such as destabilization and covert criminal operations worldwide... the armed forces will be fighting the good cause and risk their lives to give freedom to people somewhere else, instead of invading a foreign land to assure access and control to resources. These versions will be oftenly reaffirmed by "free" (LOL) press. There's a false narrative being broadcast in a mainstream manner. That's propaganda based in idolization.
 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
23. My initial impressions of Chavez were indeed shaped by mainstream media depictions, and
Sun May 19, 2013, 07:19 PM
May 2013

I've since moderated them quite a bit based almost entirely on what I've read here on DU in the LA forum.

I challenge you to find any post in which I've ever advocated anything other than the US minding its own fucking beeswax in LA and elsewhere. What they do is none of mine or anybody else's business.

What I have averred, and continue to stand by, is that I would not want to live in a society so completely and overwhelmingly dominated by any Dear Leader, with his or her endless blathering over the airwaves and wall to wall posters and propaganda as Chavez has plastered himself over every aspect of life in VZ. Such is the slavish devotion to the man that certain posters here stand ready to fight to the death defending his successor based on nothing other than the fact that Chavez picked him. That's just irrational hero worship.

joshcryer

(62,269 posts)
29. 2 would make no sense for the company, of course.
Mon May 20, 2013, 02:05 AM
May 2013

Simply because they will have paid for the goods beforehand and sitting on goods that there is an undeniable demand for is a bad business practice and would quickly bankrupt the company if they thought they could keep on doing it for months at a time. Such a "destabilizing effort" would not happen overnight (unless we really believe that the chavista held government is that weak, teatering on the brink, which I think is preposterous). If a small group of people did intend to sell the foodstuff on the black market it would've been very risky and it would have been easily noticed by top level managers and executives because X amount of goods bought didn't get sold. You could trace it directly back to the conspirators in no time. I suspect if there's a case here top execs, boligarchs, were checking their records and saw an opportunity to make a show. They give up their bribes to turn a blind eye, and then the chavistas get a scapegoat for the countries.

As far as item 3 it's very possible that they did do that, however, we're talking about a very very small amount of foodstuff. This is not a lot of food. Having worked in distribution warehouses before I've seen scenarios where a pallet of food didn't go out (due either to shipping issues or payment issues). Here we're looking at a a couple of truck loads worth of stuff. Since the price control regulations have a lot of paperwork this would've been so trivial to track it's a joke. For the amount of foodstuff to still be laying around require I think a conspiracy where the top level execs were knowledgeable is a more likely scenario.

The price controls are definitely a guaranteed way to get shortages since the markets will adapt. Even Paul Krugman agrees that price controls are a disaster in competitive markets. The price controls are the reason for the shortages. Items 2 and 3 are basically far too complicated and irrational to be the reason for the shortage overall. (Though I think a black market deal would be the most likely scenario and one shouldn't forget Polar was taking the brunt of the blame just a few days ago, and of course they were vindicated because Polar seems to run their business well and keep good records.)

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
32. I don't think the state is asking them to pay less. They're allowed to make a profit, but a fair one
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:03 PM
May 2013

There aren't even that many controls. There are only about 20 products on the price control list despite all the gnashing of teeth you hear. Toilet paper is one of them. The rest are baby food, diapers, personal hygiene products, mineral water and pasteurized fruit juice. You can check this for yourself at the SundeCOP website and click on the red box "Consulto los precios maximos de venta al publico" to see how few items are on the price control list. Or better yet, here's an easier list straight from the Price Control Branch

The controlled price for toilet paper is $8.20(USD) for 12 rolls. Is that so unreasonable? Especially in a country where 60% of the population is very poor and 80% would be classified poor by US standards?

The other place to check for agricultural price controls is the govt website of Gacete Officiel Here's the bulletin for May. I noted with amusement that again, there are few items on it (chicken, powdered milk, cheese, basics what).

My take, as you know is item #2.The business community is still angry that Chavez took oil money to subsidize a livable diet for the poor and selling them food at a discount in special markets in poor neighborhoods. Wealthy food producers and importers, almost all of them tied to the opposition, don't like that so they're trying to raise prices by hoarding. If they can make the government subsidies appear meaningless economically and cause political unrest while they're at it, they're guaranteed cheap labor and huge future profits again.

They've been caught doing this too many times and several times in Venezuela. Before the 2002 coup, they were hoarding all the basic goods too thinking it would get more people on their side when they tried to oust Chavez. They failed miserably. And they've failed every single time. If you really want to know about this subject talk to the Magistrate. He's an expert on it and can give you the whole sordid history. And talk a long look at these charts which explain why the private sector is so pissed off.

Your reasoning that maybe they're just not producing the stuff because there isn't enough profit would make sense if they hadn't been caught hoarding the same items for which there was a shortage. No government, anywhere in the world, can be expected to tolerate that.

And it's not just hoarding, it's also smuggling for profit. Venezuela's subsidized gas, for example, is probably the cheapest in the world. So what did certain people do? They went hog crazy for profit and started smuggling it into Colombia so Chavez had to introduce gas rationing on the border states. They do the same thing with the food too, smuggle it into Colombia for profit, like the US/Canada cigarette smuggling rings.

They're not being asked to produce good without a profit. This is where the Venezuela model got a lot of criticism from Socialists and Communist. Private business can make a profit there. It just can't be obscene. Think of our banks for a good comparison.

Another thing is that only certain items have price controls in Venezuela. Those 'certain items' are basic things people need to live. There are price controls on cars too because car dealers were fixing the prices and flipping them for several times their worth, gouging the consumers again.

Look at this company, it was allowed to produce and sell food in Venezuela. These are the kind of vultures who want the price controls gone. And why? For multimillion dollar salaries, bonuses and stock market speculation. So a CEO can sit in the boardroom and tell his officers he wants a 10% increase in profits next year so they squeeze the consumer dry. Now the shoes on the other foot with the consumers dictating the terms and they don't like it.

========

Mérida, March 5th 2009 (Venezuelanalysis.com) -- Following a week of inspections of privately owned rice processing facilities aimed at assuring the supply of essential foods at regulated prices, the Venezuelan government initiated expropriation procedures of a plant owned by the multi-national food company Cargill that was found to be modifying all its rice so as to evade price controls on basic food items.

“Initiate the process of expropriation of Cargill, and with that a legal investigation, since what they are doing is a flagrant violation,” Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez declared on national television Wednesday.

Vice Minister of Agriculture and Land, Richard Canán, reported the results of the investigation, which was carried out by Venezuela’s Institute in Defense of People’s Access to Goods and Services (INDEPABIS) at the request of rice producers in the region around the processing plant in Portugesa state.

“Cargil is not even producing one single kilogram of regulated rice, but they do produce 2,400 tons of pre-cooked rice, which is not subject to regulation” said Canán. Also, INDEPABIS found approximately 18,000 tons of non-modified rice stored in the plant’s warehouse.

...

Last Sunday, the government took temporary administrative control of a Polar plant in Guárico state that was also enhancing its rice to avoid price controls. With the support of the workers, the plant is now processing rice that Polar had stored away, and the government is in discussions with the owners about next steps, according to INDEPABIS.

State inspectors found no irregularities at another private rice plant in Guárico state, so the government did not intervene in that plant.

After ordering the Cargill expropriation, Chávez told his ministers to begin inspections of producers of flour, oil, and toilet paper. He said the state “will take decisive measures in favor of the people against those who do not abide by the law.”

...

Cargill produces food and provides agricultural, financial, and industrial services in 67 countries, according to the company website. It reported nearly $4 billion in net earnings in 2008, a 36% increase over the previous year, while the number of people suffering hunger worldwide increased to a record 923 million.

This work is licensed under a Attribution Non-commercial No Derivatives Creative Commons license

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/4267


These people are not honest Flatulo. They're no more honest than Archer Midland Daniels in the US who now own about 80% of our food supply and keep blaming Mother Nature but never their billions of dollars worth of salaries, bonuses and perks. They cry about price controls, never mentioning that they are making a profit, and never mentioning any illicit activities.

...

As we drive past the sugar mill belching a large plume of grey smoke, Franco waves his hand out the window at the miles of sugar cane extending in every direction. “How is it possible that we had a shortage of sugar here?” he asks with more than a slight tinge of anger in his voice.

I shrug. “You had a shortage of sugar?”

He looked at me with alarm. “Don’t tell me you didn’t hear about it,” he said, “yes, sugar — and milk and oil. And even, for a time, coffee, believe it or not. All this went to Colombia, and then we had to buy it all back.”

I ask him to explain.

“It happened last year just before the referendum. Polar, Alfonso Rivas y Compañia, Cargill and some other companies related to Purina and others, were sending all this stuff out of the country to be sold at market prices in Colombia. You see, the prices were being controlled here in Venezuela to make food available and affordable to working people. So what happened was these companies sent all this out, truckload after truckload: caravans of all this food, into Colombia. And we had to buy it all back.”

We pass through another alcabala where there is a National Guard truck with an x-ray machine and a conveyor belt attached. We dutifully roll down the tinted windows and turn off the air conditioner. We’re hit with a blast of dry air as we smile at the guards, who smile back, and then wave us through.

The overriding reason the corporations shipped food to Colombia was, of course, profiteering: a liter of milk sold in a transitional socialist economy won’t command the same price as the same liter sold in Colombia’s “free trade” capitalist markets. But there was also a political reason, and that was the referendum of December 2, Chávez and the Bolivarian Revolution’s first electoral defeat. The shortages, engineered by the very same opposition which decried them, then blamed them on Chávez, ironically boosted dissatisfaction sufficiently to defeat the initiatives for the further socialization of the economy. The referendum lost by less than one percentage point.

Franco waves his hand in front of him again. “Chavez is a plainsman and he has a long vision. He’s a great chess player who turns defeats into victories. And so he set up these checkpoints to stop what was really highway robbery by the big corporations, and then he began to nationalize the food industries.”

...

Franco orders a small black espresso and a small espresso with milk, a café marrón. He dumps a packet of sugar in each of the two little plastic cups, the sizes of large thimbles. I ask him if there are still shortages. He laughs.

“Not any more. Not since Chavez started nationalizing the food companies. Lacteos Los Andes, which represents over forty percent of the market in milk and milk products, is now state owned. He also created Pedeval, a PDVSA (Venezuela Petroleum Company) project which buys food from overseas and sells it here in Venezuela at very low prices. Then, to give a little to the capitalists, he also raised the maximum price for milk and suddenly there was milk everywhere. So he used the carrot with one hand, and the stick with the other.”

...

“Look at that. Smart business people know they can do good business with Chavez,” he says. Someone honks at us and quickly passes, the roar of an engine temporarily drowning out Franco’s words. “If they push too hard and disrupt the country with another attempt at a golpe (coup) then he nationalizes them. Otherwise, if they cooperate with the new socialist economy, they win and make their money. Either way he has stopped them at the checkpoints.”

“That may be true, Franco, but then, what makes this a “socialist” economy?” I ask.

To my dismay, Franco takes his eyes off the road to look at me. “Making food, housing and education accessible to all as a top priority. Profit has to be a second priority,” he replies.

Check, mate.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3580

 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
33. It's more than 20 items
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:21 PM
May 2013
There are only about 20 products on the price control list despite all the gnashing of teeth you hear.

That's just not true.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/business/Venezuela-expands-price-controls-to-new-products-

http://venezuelanalysis.com/tag/price-controls


The controlled price for toilet paper is $8.20(USD) for 12 rolls. Is that so unreasonable?

Is it? I don't know. The price controls are at three different levels, the manufacturing, wholesale, and retail levels. It would only take one of those to be off to disrupt the whole supply chain.


But, more importantly, where do they manufacturers get the dollars to buy the raw materials?

joshcryer

(62,269 posts)
36. Looks like it covers 616 items:
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:02 PM
May 2013
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6905

In any event I am displeased that poster complained about regular folks smuggling gasoline. Fill up a gas tank in Venezuela for $1 (subsidized to the tune of something like $25 billion a year when only 15% of Venezuelans have cars), drive over the border to Colombia for a "visit" to friends or something, siphon it off at half market rates, buy food, clothing, and other essentials. It really does show a disconnect there because these people aren't exactly mobsters or thugs, they're everyday people who've found a way to make money. It reminds me of people chastising people on food stamps for selling their food stamps for cash (or as when I was a kid and we were on food stamps and they gave you back change, I was sent in to stores to make change, buy a coke, get back 75 cents, etc). Yes it is illegal, but it is not immoral, people do these things for a reason.

Look at these criminals:



The really immoral, unethical, cronies, are those who fill up tanker trucks and ships with gasoline and whom the national guard turns a blind eye to. Such an operation is mind bogglingly insane and it requires the knowledge (and bribes) of top level chavistas for it to go on (either in the military or in the government).
 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
34. "The controlled price for toilet paper is $8.20(USD) for 12 rolls."
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:31 PM
May 2013

Which conversion rate are you using? The actual one that people have to pay for dollars, or the government one?

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
48. Is there any genuine competition in the retail
Thu May 23, 2013, 04:27 PM
May 2013

sale of these commodities that are in short supply?

I believe only two things can lower prices in an organic way - competition and oversupply (or low demand).

And the only way that competition can flourish is if monopolies are prevented from forming. Do the commodity suppliers there have monopoly power?

mwrguy

(3,245 posts)
27. Hang a few CEOs
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:32 AM
May 2013

Or at least put them in prison.

There should be no profit motive tied to anything necessary for life, such as medicine or food. The people have a right to those things.

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
30. Do you work to just break even? If I pay for your gas and
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:57 PM
May 2013

vehicle depreciation and lunch, will you come work for me and we'll call it even ?

Why should farmers be denied a profit? It's hard work.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
37. They can still make a profit.
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:21 PM
May 2013

They just can't gouge the consumers at will like they're used to, especially the transnationals. If they weren't making a tidy profit, they would have left long ago.

...

Thanks to Prolesa, local milk farmers now have an alternative source to sell their milk to rather than being at the mercy of prices set by profit hungry multinationals that often exported the product for higher profits.

Instead, local farmers can now earn more for their milk and also produce quality products at fair prices for the local community and surrounding areas.

In an effort to keep prices as low as possible for consumers, Prolesa members work with other farmers, communal councils and workers at the local Ministry of Agriculture and Land (MAT) office to promote a campesino market.

This allows producers to sell their produce directly to the consumer, cutting out intermediaries.

Venezuelan campesinos like Alfredo are in an almost unique position of counting on the support of their government in this struggle for food sovereignty.

The goal of food sovereignty is enshrined in Venezuela’s constitution, which was adopted in a 1999 referendum.

...

This work is licensed under a Attribution Non-commercial No Derivatives Creative Commons license

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/6214

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
39. I'm glad you agree that a reasonable profit is not a bad thing. People need some incentive
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:49 AM
May 2013

to do the hard jobs. We are an inherently selfish species.

Personally, I think the tax code can be a more effective tool than price controls. Do you want to defy your shareholders and pay your CEO a billion $$$ for picking his ass? Fine, we'll claw back 98% of it through taxes.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
41. The problems is the different definitions of reasonable
Tue May 21, 2013, 12:43 PM
May 2013

Pharma execs in the US think it's reasonable to have multimillion dollar bonuses every year and mid-level managers wouldn't dream of flying economy class. Their executive management wouldn't dream of flying commercial. They wouldn't dream of living in less than a mansion (look what happened to real estate prices in Silicon Valley as a result, where needed workers like cops, teachers and fireman have to commute 4 hours a day to get to work now).

They've created a vicious model and consumers pay for this because we let them. And we can't stop them either because they own almost everyone who could.

I don't know what your definition of reasonable profit is but mine isn't Colgate's or Archer Midland Daniel's. And tax codes haven't been a great help. We swore for eons that was the answer but look where we are. Huge profitable multinationals like GE pay no taxes. They hide their money overseas, in GE's case [link:$108 Billion Overseas - priva|108 Billion] after you and I bailed them out, and gets excused with tripe like this "GE is often derided for its minimal or non-existent federal tax bill, yet it employees tens of thousands of people who all pay some income tax."

Meanwhile, Venezuelan Vice President Elias Jaua stated that the regulated prices would be implemented gradually, first in large supermarket and pharmacy chains, and then at all levels of businesses. He further qualified the fixed prices measure as “fair and necessary”.

Granadillo explained that the 19 products had been chosen for regulation due to their importance for family budgets and after a study found that from 2007 - 2011 they had increased 400% in price, well above inflation.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6905


400% ? That's price-gouging. No responsible government can tolerate that. Tax codes don't work very well because of who writes the tax codes. I prefer what the Latin American governments are doing, negotiate fair prices or kick them out and do it yourself. Brazil, for example, regularly breaks US patent laws regularly on medication because drug manufacturer's idea of *reasonable profits* make no sense for the citizens it has a responsibility to protect (one case).

There was a time when people made huge discoveries, developments, without the profit motive.

If Polio was practically eliminated, it's because Salk was horrified at the idea of putting a patent on his vaccine. ( "There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?&quot Same with the Curie's arduous R&D into radium. We're not all selfish and things weren't always like this. A very good biologist friend of mine, an old man with many discoveries and achievements once very sadly remarked that his field died out in the US when people started doing things for profit instead of doing them for the love of biology. Kill the profit motive. A reasonable profit ok, if we must, but not what's going on now.

"This is a law to protect the people from capitalism," Chavez said to a crowd of officials and government supporters gathered in the capital's poor 23 de Enero district. "We have a tough battle ahead."

While price controls already exist for some basic foods such as cooking oil and rice, the law taking effect Tuesday extends them to a wider range of goods and gives the government more enforcement authority.

...

Chavez accused large transnational companies and local monopolies of "exploiting the people" by unjustifiably boosting prices.

"Whenever we increase salaries, they immediately raise prices,"

http://www.startribune.com/printarticle/?id=134352313

They have a tough battle ahead because the selfish ones, the greedy ones won't give up their profits without a fight. They'd rather see working class families before giving them out. They've made that clear all over the world. Including Venezuela where this charming attitudes is rife: (the caps are all Conchita's)

HOW LONG DO WE OF THE WORKING MIDDLE CLASS HAVE TO GET SCREWED BECAUSE OF THE POOR CLASS. WORK, THAT’S WHAT GOD GAVE YOU ABILITIES FOR. DON’T STICK YOUR HAND OUT TO GET ALMS, BECAUSE THEY’RE GOING TO MAKE YOU PAY FOR IT LATER. DON’T BE MORE IGNORANT AND GET GOING WORK AND DON’T BE BEGGARS AND WHAT’S WORSE DON’T GO AROUND SAYING THAT ALL THE POOR ARE WITH THE REVOLUTION.. THAT IS A LIE AND CHEEKY. WHAT SEVERAL DO IS TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE REVOLUTION AND WHAT THEY’RE CALLED IS BOLIBOURGEOISE. STOP BEING THIEVES AND WORK.

http://infosurhoy.com/cocoon/saii/xhtml/en_GB/features/saii/features/main/2013/03/22/feature-02
 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
42. "400% ? That's price-gouging"
Tue May 21, 2013, 12:50 PM
May 2013

It depends on the circumstances. What is supply is down (due to price controls) and demand is up due to, as you point out, Venzeulans having more money?

You could very easily in that situation have prices go up far higher than inflation.

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
43. I more or less agree with you on executive compensation and corporate governance.
Tue May 21, 2013, 04:44 PM
May 2013

It's gotten so out of control in the past twenty years - these people are utterly shameless. I saw freshly minted VPs go from making maybe 2X what a senior engineer made in the '80s to 20X in the '90s and '00s. We'd get a new VP of engineering every six months or so. They'd come in and sing a wonderful song about how they were here to develop cool products and grow the business, but within six months they'd wiped out a division and moved all the jobs and assets to the Far East, and pick up $10,000,000 or so in stocks and bonuses. Executive talent has become measured not by how much one can build, but by how much one can destroy. In fact, most of the companies I worked for throughout my career have been destroyed - not because they weren't profitable - they were - but because the new breed of Harvard MBA is no interested in making things, just destroying them.

American Capitalism, as it exists today, is a cancer that is slowly eating the host.

But I think much of the problem can be fixed. The whole executive compensation problem is ripe for a shareholder revolt, plus some needed regulation. We need to take control of our own stock portfolios rather than dump everything into the laps of so-called financial gurus like Fidelity. Mutual funds don't give us enough resolution and control over which companies we want to correct. Members of a company's board should not be able to have any financial stake in the company whatsoever. And restore the 90% tax rate on incomes over $1m or so.

As far as pharmaceuticals go, I do have some disagreements with you. There has to be intellectual property protection so that researchers can profit from doing all the hard work required to develop a new drug/device/procedure. It's not fair that XYZ Pharma spends $b bringing Lipitor to market, only to have the recipe stolen a month later. There needs to be a protection period of xx months during which generic products may not be produced. I know this is unfair to people who need the brand name product but can't afford it, but who said life was fair?

If you wrote a wonderful novel and I found the manuscript and copied it under my own name and went on to become rich, that would be theft, correct? Well, why is intellectual property any less deserving of legal ownership protections? I think that the patent protections may be too generous now, (Lipitor was protected for 20+ years) but that can be fixed with legislation that protects the owner of the patent.

As for Dr. Salk and others, yes - they may have been great humanitarians, but the days when a single researcher can have a breakthrough like the Polio vaccine working mostly on their own are gone. It costs millions and sometimes billions of dollars to develop, test, approve and market a new drug. No one can do it on their own, and no one can do it for free.

 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
44. FWIW
Tue May 21, 2013, 04:59 PM
May 2013
But I think much of the problem can be fixed.

I do too. Here is the thing, in my opinion: Let's not focus on every single last regulation right now. Almost all the market abuses come from market size. The gutting of the FTC and the Sherman Anti Trust act are the real problem. The banks, drug companies, defense contractors, etc. should never have been allowed to get so big. Were they not so big, they would not have gotten away with most of the abuses.

How did they get so big? Lobbying.

So, the real fight is campaign finance reform. After that if you bring back the old rules that prevent oligopolies, a lot of the other problems would solve themselves.

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
45. Abso-fucking-lutely.
Tue May 21, 2013, 05:05 PM
May 2013

If we don't fix the problem of corporate money deciding - well, everything - then this great experiment will fail. Not because the ideas were bad - they were brilliant - but because we failed in the implementation.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
46. Why do we need stock portfolios? What's wrong with good old-fashioned pension plans?
Tue May 21, 2013, 06:05 PM
May 2013

I agree with what you wrote about what you saw in engineering because I saw the same thing, and worse I think.

I don't agree with you about pharma. They recycle the same scientists, biologists, lab techs, chemists, engineers to do the same work. Much of the equipment is reused or could be. What costs so much is all the new management, strategy and marketing teams, liaison teams, they bring in and then fancy new buildings to house them. The number of workers in R&D barely ever changes unless they build a new site but instead they get layers upon layers of new management teams to "direct", to "guide", to "advise". Layers and layers of lawyers to protect patent rights, economists to do worldwide pricing and some of the most dishonest tricks you ever saw to get drugs on the market. There's a reason Donald Rumsfeld and some of the worst corporate thieves in history love the pharma boards so much. They recycle a lot of medications too. One day it's for HIV and when that patent runs out, they tweak it and launch it for something else, all to protect the patent.

I know so many people who worked in R&D but can't take it anymore because they don't get to do their work. They're constantly having to update a bunch of MBA's who come up with expensive solutions to "fix" problems they never said they had. There's a lot of mismanagement going on in pharma. It's happened in all industries.

The almighty profit drives the whole thing now and when they decide it's not profitable enough, or could be more profitable offshore,. they pull up stakes and don't care how many lives they destroy.

Can capitalism can be fixed? That's above my paygrade but I believe what we're seeing now is its natural denouement. There was no where else for it to go except where we are right now. Where does the profit come from in the first place? And how do you stop a cancerous growth, that looks benign at first, that needs more and more profit to survive?

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
47. Pension plans are great, if you can find them anymore in the private sector. Of course, the
Wed May 22, 2013, 07:57 AM
May 2013

funds in pension plans are mostly in equities anyway, so you're still subject to the whims of the market. The difference is that 401Ks put all the risk on YOU and removes it from the employer, so it was a great move from their perspective.

Public sector pension plans for federal, state and local are also tied to the market, and given the somewhat regular annihilation of those monies, these plans are currently under-funded to the tune of a trillion dollars or so. So it seems to me that with either fixed annuities (pensions) or 401ks, the money is either there or it isn't. The taxpayers will have to bail out the under-funded public pensions, so I suppose those could be considered "safe" for public sector workers, whereas the private sector folks will have to absorb the losses, and in addition pay out to make whole the public sector plans. Is it all sustainable? I doubt it. People are living longer, and I don't see how one can work for forty years and then retire for thirty-five years, drawing 80% or whatever of their salary plus health care.

It further seems to me that what is breaking the whole system is health care costs, which the ACA does very little to address. We're still on a trajectory of having medical expenses consume every dollar of our economy on a long enough timeline. For that reason alone I fully support pushing the whole thing onto the government. Take the profit completely out of it. Time magazine did a good exposé of where all the money is going, and surprisingly, it wasn't the insurance companies. It was the hospitals. Markups of 1000x are the norm, with absolutely no value added. The insurers are forced by law to pay, and we're forced by law to pay the insurers. Medicare is the only insurer that has the heft to negotiate 'reasonable' prices. With hospital conglomerates, private insurers can no longer negotiate for the best prices, because all the hospitals are owned by the same people. There really is no competition.

It's a mess for sure. But as I've stated elsewhere, the Northern European states seem to have found a balance of public and private investment that works very well. They're happy, healthy and prosperous. If we can get the money out of our election cycles, we can elect people who will implement the changes needed to save our system.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
35. Canada has the right idea on medicine. Most of their medicines are under price controls
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:37 PM
May 2013

Add shelter and water to your list, and we're in full agreement.

 

Flatulo

(5,005 posts)
40. Manufacturing drugs is relatively straightforward. It's the massive R&D that goes into bringing
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:52 AM
May 2013

a new pharmaceutical to market. It can cost billions. How do you incentivize big pharma to develop new (and needed) meds while imposing price controls? I really haven't figured this one out.

I don't hear of many Canadian companies developing new treatments. They seem to come mostly from the US and a few European companies.

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