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Related: About this forumU.S. should not interfere in Venezuela
U.S. should not interfere in Venezuela
By JUAN BLANCO PRADA
McClatchy-Tribune News Service
February 27, 2014 Updated 26 minutes ago
The United States should stop meddling in Venezuela.
Since the death of President Hugo Chavez, Venezuela has gone through two elections. The ruling coalition led by Chavez's successor, President Nicolas Maduro, won both of them.
In April 2013, Maduro won the presidency against the leader of the united opposition front, Henrique Capriles. The narrow margin of this victory, 1.6 percent of the vote, prompted a challenge by Capriles, but international observers certified the results as fair and clean.
In December, Venezuela held municipal elections. The opposition, boosted by a deteriorating economic situation, decided to turn the election into a plebiscite on Chavez's Bolivarian revolution.
To the consternation of the opposition leadership and supporters, the pro-government parties won a decisive victory, by a margin of 11 percent.
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http://www.mercedsunstar.com/2014/02/27/3520015/us-should-not-interfere-in-venezuela.html#storylink=cpy
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Demeter
(85,373 posts)the blowback is killing us, as is the cost. It's inherently unAmerican in spirit, by nature, even if it's been policy since Monroe. It's always backfired on us, but we are a nation of slow learners.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Rubio-F, and Menendez-NJ, both are wanting the US to meddle.
In Florida, there is a group openly advertising they are training students to oppose the elected government.
Given the history of US government meddling, there most certainly is a fair amount of covert activity taking place.
Not only that, since Chavez sent free heating oil to some poor citizens of the US, and took over some oil fields in his home country, Big Oil is not friendly to Venezuela's Bolivarian government.
There are many US based organizations working to destabilize Venezuela. Anyone arguing otherwise is just plain deceitful, or very uninformed.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)
delrem
(9,688 posts)esp. in the realm of health care, where Cuban doctors are doing wonders to upgrade and jumpstart the Venezuelan universal health care system. That isn't *quite* the same thing as traditional US involvement in Latin American politics, which hasn't progressed since the days of Kissinger.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)government claims the US is meddling in everything else. The RW blogs support the former claim, and the LW the latter.
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, I suspect. Both sides have shown a remarkable willingness to blatantly lie about the actual situation on the ground.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Which explains the Plan Estratégico Venezuela, which, conveniently for the fascists who wrote the plan, you deny exists.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Govt. I said I don't rely on far-left blogs as scholarly sources, and neither should you.
I respect the choice of the voters , even though I think it's a bad one. I also support the rights of hue students to protest without getting the crap beaten out of them.
No doubt there are many parties who would like to see Mr. Maduro twisting in the breeze. But I see lots of people who are just asking that basic services be restored. It's not traitorous to do so.
delrem
(9,688 posts)It's rather too late for that.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)are very well-known as obsequiously pro-Chavez, pro-Marxist. The exact same things that we acknowledge about Fox News can be truthfully stated about your sources. It's not news - it's propaganda. If the regime were to televise live hangings of puppies and babies, your sources would praise the actions.
It's almost as bad as the fawning love poetry that the Chavistas here vomit forth.
It's always instructive to look at alternate sources of information, to question your assumptions.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)We are acting lik87e tantrum throwing two year olds, not just in Latin America where we have been told to stop trying to return their countries to the dark days of CIA backed coups, installed puppets like Pinochet and cruel poverty for the people of the region as their resources were shared among the plunderers.
We haven't exactly shown the world that we have good intentions for these countries. See Iraq, Libya, Honduras, Afghanistan, Syria, Somalia and show us one country that is better off AFTER we invade or back their coups. Things are so bad in all of these nations since we 'intervened' that people looking for a better life, have often stated that they do not want 'US Style Democracy' and point to Iraq or any of the other countries to which we 'brought democracy'.
What is WRONG with this country, we COULD be such a force for good, but most of our ALLIES are Dictators or puppets who are willing to sell their own countries to the highest bidder at a tragic cost of their people.
The world knows the US is behind the 'protesters' in Venezuela, backing the toppling of a real democratic system. It is criminal and needs to stop before we become so hated around the world, we will have zero moral authority, not that we have much left right now.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)On the contrary, Venezuela's oil is a national resource and the Venezuelan gov't enters into deals so the Venezuelan people benefit from their ownership of that resource. The Venezuelan people who, once again, elected to power a Bolivarian gov't.
Have you ever read Karl Marx? You throw the term 'Marxist' around a lot, no doubt in the belief that red-baiting is an adequate substitution for actually making a point in a debate. Perhaps in your circles that's true, but then your circles, which includes the team of lovely campers who wrote the Plan Estratégico Venezuela, have a rather narrow self-interest. A self-interest that coincides with that of the Koch Bros.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)to characterize anyone who is critical of the heavy-handed LA leftist governments, as being in the far-right wing. Is there no position in the Democratic Party even a smidgen to the right of, say, the Castro style of governance? This is Democratic Underground, not Socialist Underground. When Skinner changes the name, I'll make my exit bow. Until then, I'll continue to argue in favor of free enterprise and individual liberties.
I see this as a common tactic - to claim that one's position is the same as Koch or Fox News. This is a logical fallacy. I could just as easily claim that because you and Hitler both enjoyed soup, that you're ideological soul mates.
You seem very bright. I hope you can do better than this.
I have read Marx, and I've also read Rand. I don't believe in centrally managed economies. There is a long trail of failed states as evidence that they don't work. I also believe that American- style capitalism is doomed.
I think the Danes and other Scandinavian states have got it about right. They have market economies with strong social safety nets and high taxes, and their people poll as the happiest in the world.
What I don't like about the VZ model is that I see a lot of support here for the kind of tactics that the Chavistas have used to stay in power. Using state resources to promote a 24/7 cycle of pro-government propaganda. Vilifying the West for every ill. Armies of red- shirted civilian militias taking to the streets to make sure everyone has 'their mind right'. You see this behavior over and over again in collectivist states.
Would I give up my rights to dissent for straight teeth and a free education? Never.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I don't believe that you've read Marx. If you had, you wouldn't be so ignorant of what he actually wrote.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Since I honestly don't respect your opinion on the situation there, what makes you think that your words would be hurtful to me in any way?
My background is engineering, not polysci or history. This may have had a profound effect on my political views. I made a shitload of money in my 37 year career as a machine design engineer. I've spent my whole life creating new things and being well-paid for my brains and ability. I've never been particularly interested in redistributionist schemes, but I do recognize that a progressive tax structure is needed to prevent excessive amounts of money from bunching up in places.
In one of my sophomore humanities classes, both Marx and Rand were required reading. Big whoop.
A thorough reading of Marx is not necessary to see they both Cuba and VZ are complete and utter failures. All one has to do us watch which way the rafts are going.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)predatory Capitalism has been, first for the third world nations it invaded, now even first world nations, such as Europe, with its IMF and its World Bank and Austerity 'policies'.
How about these Globalists mind their own business? The world made it before we existed.
Capitalism, Communism, or any other 'ism' that has claimed to be the 'best system in the history of the world', all have utterly failed the people who have been subjected to their 'policies'.
How about letting countries sort out their own problems, I have a feeling they might actually be capable of doing so without any help from whatever 'ism' is the latest 'fad'.
All those resources though, are so tempting. So it's unlikely Venezuelans will be allowed to sort out their own problems. Or any other country with valuable resources.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)That's why I've stated here before that I believe the Scandanavian states have gotten things about right. They're fiercely competitive and shrewd business people, but they have a very high and progressive tax code with a robust safety net.
We're also in complete agreement that there should be absolutely not one red cent of American money put towards destabilizing VZ, or any other states, in any way. I believe to do so is about as bad as an act of war. There's is no doubt we've done things this way in the past LA; these days I'm not sure.
Lastly, I just want to make something clear. The biggest issue I have with the current regime in VZ is what I perceive to be their wielding of various real and metaphorical blunt instruments in 'protecting the revolution'. Don't you find it just a little creepy seeing citizen militias, clad in revolutionary red, out patrolling on motorbikes? It's their country, but if that were happening here, I'd be stockpiling guns and ammunition.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the Scandanavian countries getting it about as right as is possible.
Re citizen militias, we have had them here, the Guardian Angels eg come to mind. And no, I'm not fond of them, though they are apparently or were, very popular here for a while.
I can see why people might feel they need some protection, eg, in NYC where people felt unsafe riding the subways, crime at the time, was a real factor in people's lives.
These kinds of things are a sign that people feel threatened. Fear drives people to accept things they normally would not. All sides in Vz need to start thinking of the future of the country and the protesters need to distance themselves from anyone who is associated with past attempted coups which only enhances the fear of the other side.
But all that aside, this is their country and THEY need to resolve their issues without outside interference. I'm sure they are capable of doing so and we need to start worrying about our own country, stop throwing much needed money away on all these foreign adventures while claiming that services have to be cut for the most vulnerable and /or property taxes have to be raised, a real threat to the elderly here who believed once their mortgages were paid off, they would be fine as far as keeping their homes. If you can't keep your own house in order, there is no chance you can put someone else's in order.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)even though I've never seen it actually settle an argument.
I'd like to draw a few comparisons between the Guardian Angels and the red shirts; first, the Guardian Angels are apolitical. Granted, their founder Curtis Sliwa is a bit of a kook and publicity hound, but other than public safety, they've never pushed an agenda that I'm aware of. Second, they're not supported in any way by government at any level, especially the locals, since their very presence sends a message that the cops can't do their jobs.
I do seem to recall Chavez himself announcing the creation of the red shirts as 'guardians of the revolution', and answerable only to the Executive branch. Plus, I recall that Maduro last summer pledged to double their size, which are estimated to be between 400,000 and 1m members, which makes that vastly larger than the Angels, especially per capita. Also, they're armed, which the Guardian Angels expressly forbid. So what is their mission? Ostensibly, protecting the revolution. What does that really mean? Who knows. Do they have a charter? By laws? Articles of incorporation? Would I be intimidated if the red shirts were hanging around polling places?
I do want to acknowledge that I agree that the protesters need to distance themselves from the boligarches and former RW opposition. If their issue is truly public safety and basic goods and services, they can surely organize around these specific issues and avoid being tainted.
I confess that in any dispute between any government and university students, my first impulse is to support the students. I grew up in the Vietnam era and saw firsthand the abuses our own government subjected the protesters to, and also how effective the protests were. That's why I have to raise my eyebrows when I see the regime supporters here trying to discredit the students in so many ways... Like being rich and white, and stooges of the boligarches. Maybe the regime supporters are right and the students are all agents provocateur, but I highly doubt it.
Lastly, I'll reiterate my strenuous objections to any US interference of any kind - financial, political or military. With so much need in our own country (I hear you about property taxes - it's our single biggest expense and almost 1/4 of our after tax income), it would be criminal to spend money destabilizing other regimes, especially when history shows us that it always, always, always comes back to bite us in the ass.
VZ seems to be a polarized society right now, much like we are. The last thing they need is outside interference. Hopefully they can come together and avoid civil war.
delrem
(9,688 posts)even those who support Capriles and his wish to redistribute Venezuela's natural resource wealth into the hands of folk like the Koch bros, seem compelled to announce some socialist bona fides so as to take the sting out -- as in this case a nod toward Norway's socialist system, which, by the way, doesn't bow to the Koch bros. But then Norway isn't in Latin America, the US's "backyard", so isn't vulnerable to the kind of coups that characterize US backed right-wing "opposition to the left" of the kind that Capriles counts on.
So it makes for a nice story, esp. when accompanied with panaceas that suggest that demonstrations being promoted by the right ought not be astro-turf tea-hadist concoctions that they are.
delrem
(9,688 posts)There's something about the very meaning of the word 'honesty' in that sentence.
I doubt that you'd qualify to be my "friend", Flatulo, that I would respond to you in kind.
Just being honest, here.
I say again:
Venezuela isn't being "raped of its oil by a Marxist state".
On the contrary, Venezuela's oil is a national resource and the Venezuelan gov't enters into deals so the Venezuelan people benefit from their ownership of that resource. The Venezuelan people who, once again, elected to power a Bolivarian gov't.
Have you ever read Karl Marx? You throw the term 'Marxist' around a lot, no doubt in the belief that red-baiting is an adequate substitution for actually making a point in a debate. Perhaps in your circles that's true, but then your circles, which includes the team of lovely campers who wrote the Plan Estratégico Venezuela, have a rather narrow self-interest. A self-interest that coincides with that of the Koch Bros.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)shown any great capacity to solve our own, let alone anyone else's. Americans cannot afford these foreign adventures, all of which have failed spectacularly as far as the people are concerned.
Perhaps I have more respect for people in other sovereign nations than those who for some inconceivable reason considering the evidence to the contrary, somehow still think the US is superior to these countries who NEED their interference in order to survive.
Utter nonsense, the only reason any Western nation gets involved in the affairs of oil producing countries is for profit, it sure isn't because they CARE. The don't even care about Americans most of the time.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)
