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Judi Lynn

(160,631 posts)
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 03:14 PM Sep 2012

Venezuelan Opposition Prepares for Non-Recognition of Chavez Victory

Venezuelan Opposition Prepares for Non-Recognition of Chavez Victory
Posted: 04/09/2012 09:24

Venezuelans go to the polls on 7 October to elect their president. The main choice is between the incumbent Hugo Chavez and Henrique Capriles Radonski, a right-wing state governor with strong ties to the country's elite.

Yet with more than a month to go, sections of Venezuela's right wing opposition coalition seem to have made up their mind about the outcome. With substantial poll leads for Hugo Chávez they appear to be preparing to decry the official results as a fraud.

Ricardo Hausmann, a key Capriles economic adviser, recently said his campaign will announce their own results to the world before the official announcement is made by Venezuela's independent National Electoral Council (CNE), the equivalent of Britain's Electoral Commission. Their approach seems to be that unless the results go their way, the CNE's official results will be rejected by the opposition.

As Eleazar Diza Rangel, editor of Venezuela's main national newspaper Ultimas Noticias - broadly sympathetic to the anti-Chávez opposition - recently explained the purpose of attempts "to claim fraud at the coming presidential elections of 7 October (would be) in order not to recognise the people's will".

More:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-francisco-dominguez/venezuelan-opposition-pre_b_1853398.html

17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Venezuelan Opposition Prepares for Non-Recognition of Chavez Victory (Original Post) Judi Lynn Sep 2012 OP
Same old, same old, then. bemildred Sep 2012 #1
No! That's how it should be done! Are you kidding me? joshcryer Sep 2012 #2
I have no idea what you are going on about or why. bemildred Sep 2012 #5
I'm saying simply that the reason the opposition is being slandered... joshcryer Sep 2012 #6
I think they are enemies, so of course they are going to attack each other. bemildred Sep 2012 #7
Too much Western Media propaganda and a complete ignorance of the history of other sabrina 1 Oct 2012 #13
I don't really know enough about Morsi. bemildred Oct 2012 #15
As well they should. joshcryer Sep 2012 #3
This is from a key Capriles adviser and is typical of Venezuela's rightwing... Peace Patriot Sep 2012 #4
I can't believe there are people in this website that support Chávez without ever being in Venezuela Marksman_91 Sep 2012 #8
I support human rights and gov'ts who better the lives of their people everywhere. nt. polly7 Sep 2012 #9
So do I, which is why I'm against the person in charge during the murders of 100k Venezuelans. joshcryer Sep 2012 #11
I downloaded it with a program called JDownloader. Watching now. joshcryer Sep 2012 #10
I'm appalled that there are any on this site who support the Right Wing in Venezuela sabrina 1 Oct 2012 #14
I have been to Venezuela a number of times. I support Chavez & the PSUV. Mika Oct 2012 #17
Where's the beef? joshcryer Oct 2012 #12
Heh. nt bemildred Oct 2012 #16

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
2. No! That's how it should be done! Are you kidding me?
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:58 PM
Sep 2012

You look at Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood won. Yes it sucked, but it was a totally legitimate win. Now ideally they shouldn't have been allowed to win if the west had its way. But they were able to have a superior ground game to the point that when the election was called the numbers they had on the ground were right on target.

Read this: http://technosociology.org/?p=1064


Whatever else went into the apparent results, I’d like to suggest that the Muslim Brotherhood (or Ikhwan as Egyptians refer to them) made it harder for the election to be stolen because they combined a superior ground game with active and sophisticated online presence to control the narrative and force a level of transparency. (In other words, they forced it such that if the elections were going to be stolen, it was going to be “in-your-face” stolen which is a very different method with greatly different political implications than “under-the-rug” stolen).


That's all the opposition is proposing here. The spin is just preposterous. The only way to steal the elections in Venezuela is in your face obvious stealing. Stealing so obvious to anyone that only the most chronic of liars would believe the results.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
5. I have no idea what you are going on about or why.
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 05:06 AM
Sep 2012

MB has been a political player in Egypt for 100 years and more, nobody else has the political credibility to even attempt to rule democratically, as opposed to ruling by force, hence they offer the only possibility of genuine orderly civilian rule.

They started out as a nationalist/anti-colonial political movement, and that is what they are now. Morsi seems inclined to get right on with it too, he's been moving fast, but conciliatory to the old guard. What is happening now in Egypt is the contnuation of the wane of Western "influence", i.e. the restoration of local rule after a period of outside conquest/occupation/colonization.

The situation in Venezuela is quite different in some respects, similar in others, and not at all in the same stage of historical and cultural development.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
6. I'm saying simply that the reason the opposition is being slandered...
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 02:27 PM
Sep 2012

...is because they have a ground game that is going to have monitors in every polling station.

The basic argument is this: "They can't trust the CNE to run the election without monitors they are going to call fraud!"

If you read the article it's loaded with weak arguments like "seem to be" and "appear to be." The author doesn't actually have evidence the opposition is going to cry fraud.

I made no connection to the Muslim Brotherhood other than that they have a similar ground game and presence in every polling station. If you think it's "wrong" for the opposition to not have people in every polling station I don't know what to tell you. An unmonitored poll may as well be a fraud magnet. All sides in an election should have their party monitors in the polls.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
7. I think they are enemies, so of course they are going to attack each other.
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 05:21 PM
Sep 2012

As they have been all along.

I am totally cool with everybody having monitors at the polls, it's public business and it should be public.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
13. Too much Western Media propaganda and a complete ignorance of the history of other
Mon Oct 8, 2012, 01:42 AM
Oct 2012

nations is what causes this attitude toward the Muslim Brotherhood and Chavez, and of course, bigotry.

So far, Morsi, who is extremely intelligent has seemed like a breath of fresh air after decades of the Western backed dictatorship of Mubarak.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
15. I don't really know enough about Morsi.
Mon Oct 8, 2012, 08:19 AM
Oct 2012

I know the relevant history fairly well for a civilian.

Based on what little I do know and what he has done so far I think he is sharp and knows the score, he seems to have magicallly reconciled the Egyptian military-state-apparatus and the MB for example, yet I've been ridiculed here for suggesting that it would be a mistake to underestimate him.

I will leave it to you to infer what conclusion I draw from that.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
3. As well they should.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 10:00 PM
Sep 2012

However, Chavez can only steal the election openly, and with force and violence. It's not possible to do it clandestinely.

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
4. This is from a key Capriles adviser and is typical of Venezuela's rightwing...
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 03:42 AM
Sep 2012

...as the article points out.

The article is written by Dr. Franco Dominguez, head for the Centre of Brazilian and Latin American Studies at Middlesex University, in England. He reminds us that Capriles won a state governorship in an election run by the same National Electoral Council (CNE) that his adviser, Hausmann, is now saying he doesn't trust. The CNE also ran the primary that Capriles recently won and all elections in Venezuela including Chavez losses in one of the legislative elections and on a package of constitutional amendments.

To be fair, this was not an official Capriles campaign statement, as far as I can tell. Dominguez attributes it to "key economic adviser" Hausmann and to "sections of Venezuela's right wing opposition coalition." He doesn't make clear how widespread this tactic is, nor if any other high profile advisers or Capriles aides (or Capriles himself) agree.

But it's true that the rightwing opposition has been crybabying about "election fraud" for over ten years--in the face of the unanimous opinion by the best international election monitors that Venezuela's election system is honest and transparent (the Carter Center, the OAS, the EU and others).

---

"Rejecting the results in the face of a Hugo Chavez victory would be totally consistent with the Venezuelan right-wing's record of resorting to undemocratic means. Most well known is the short-lived coup against the democratically-elected Chavez government in 2002 which abolished democracy altogether until it was overturned by popular demonstrations. Soon after in 2003, they unleashed a 64-day oil industry lock-out that saw GDP collapse by a third with the declared aim of ousting President Chavez. They then claimed fraud at the 2004 recall referendum to decide if Hugo Chávez would continue as President, which he won 58% to 42%. The opposition promised to provide the evidence but eight years on they have yet to produce it. And faced with certain defeat, they decided to boycott the 2005 parliamentary elections to distract from their unpopularity, a move opposed by the Organisation of American States." --from the OP (my emphasis)

---

Dominguez doesn't mention that there was evidence of a Washington DC-based plot to overthrow Chavez's victory in the '04 recall election, using false exit poll results (which were to be used to stir up rightwing riots). The poll, by a Washington firm, was discredited. And there was a repeat of this threat in the '06 election (which Chavez also won, hands down).

He also doesn't mention that what Hausmann is proposing may be illegal, according to CNE rules, which forbid publication of private exit poll results (which we know, from Venezuela '04, and from the '04 Bush (s)election, can be rigged) before the CNE announces official results. Venezuela has a very efficient system which reports results quickly. It is an electronic system which uses OPEN SOURCE programming code--code that anyone may review--and is attended by a whopping 55% audit (comparison of ballots to electronic results). A 55% audit is more than five times the minimum needed to detect fraud in an electronic system.*

Venezuela's election system is based on "best practices" rules as recommended by international monitoring groups and as utilized by the best European and Latin American systems. The ban on TV ads in the weeks prior to the vote (to prevent "hit pieces"--false allegations that there is no time to counter) is one of these. The ban on private exit poll releases, prior to official returns, is another. And possibly the most important "best practice" is that all contending political parties are included in the set up of the system and the rule-making and all major political groups are included on the Council.

Venezuela's rightwing has often been irrational in their anticipation of and response to Chavez victories. They have been very "Mad Tea Party"-like. They often don't make sense, even from the point of view of their own interest--for instance, their boycott of the 2005 legislative election and their crazy opposition to fingerprinting for voter ID. The CNE has bent over backwards to accommodate them--but the rightwing's bottom-line, really, is that they--Venezuela's rich elite--were "born to rule." They think they have a RIGHT to rule Venezuela, as evidenced in their many undemocratic attempts to overturn the will of the majority of Venezuelans.

The U.S. feeds this "born to rule" mentality with money and political support and with USAID "training" and other help, given exclusively to the rightwing. The U.S. and transglobal corporate media also feed their delusions by NEVER crediting the Chavez government with its significant achievements and ALWAYS dissing the Chavez government, in a relentless echo campaign of rightwing "talking points." Venezuela's rightwing apparently thinks that, because AP and Reuters and the New York Slimes and all the rest, repeat their "talking points" and ONLY their "talking points," and ONLY report news that SUPPORTS those "talking points," that what they are saying is true and everybody should believe them. This is the basis of their childish shitfits about Chavez's popularity and electoral wins.

But unlike many of our people, Venezuelans have long memories and a native suspicion of corporate media propaganda. They do not let events like the '02 coup attempt and '03 oil bosses lockout slip into the corporate media "river of forgetfulness." They seem to have judged Capriles as a "wolf in sheep's clothing"--an airbrushed version of the "born to rule" crowd-- whose real agenda is to undo Venezuela's "New Deal" rather than supporting it (as he claims). And they KNOW--in their own lives and the lives of other Venezuelans--how big an improvement the Chavez government has been for most people. Statistics overwhelmingly support that improvement. And recent history overwhelmingly points to rightwing greed, neglect of the poor, contempt for democracy and fairness and collusion with the U.S. government and corporate monsters like Exxon Mobil.

Dominguez concludes--and I agree...

"The truth is that any opposition attempt to cry fraud is really about covering up its own political failings. Polls carried out by the major companies indicate a clear win for Hugo Chávez, with leads of between 15-27% in each of the 8 major polls carried out in July. August's polls give similar results." --from the OP (my emphasis)


----------------


*(Our system, by comparison, is extremely non-transparent. It is largely (70%) run by one, private, far rightwing-connected corporation--ES&S, which bought out Diebold--and uses 'TRADE SECRET' code--code that the public is forbidden to review--with ZERO auditing in half the states and a miserable 1% audit in the others. It is easily--EASILY!--riggable. Thus, we can never again elect an FDR as president, for instance, among other curtailments of our rights and power as a democratic people. We get nothing but corporate presidents and, lately, endless unjust war (including official U.S. murder of "suspects" around the globe by anonymous U.S. personnel conducting war-as-video-game)--in addition to outright fascists like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, and fascist governors and legislators. I do NOT advocate not voting, however. There is always a chance that an overwhelming turnout can scare off the rigsters. And it's clear that what the bad guys want is for us to give up on voting. Voting is our most precious democratic right and power. We MUST exercise it, lest we forget that we have this right and power, and we MUST fight for the transparency of our elections, lest we lose our democracy altogether, which is what the transglobal corporations who are running things here clearly have in mind.)

 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
8. I can't believe there are people in this website that support Chávez without ever being in Venezuela
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:20 PM
Sep 2012

Please watch this video. Mind you, it's about 40 minutes long, but well worth the watch.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtjiwd_extreme-world-venezuela_news?start=1

Let's see if anyone here keeps supporting Chavez after watching it.

I'm Venezuelan myself, lived my whole life in Caracas, and I am just appalled by the amount of people that support him in this site. How about you actually go live in the country he's the president of before making any judgments?

You might've heard about Chávez having ordered the Venezuelan consulate in Miami to be shut down simply because he was butthurt. He plays dirty with elections, and knows that 99% of the people in Florida and its surrounding states would vote against him. Now what was once a small drive for many is gonna be almost a day worth of driving just to vote, since we've all been relocated to vote in the New Orleans consulate. But I assure you, MANY people are mobilizing anyway to go vote there, including myself. It's time we elected somebody new. Chávez had his chance for 14 years now, and he blew it big time. It's time for a change.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
10. I downloaded it with a program called JDownloader. Watching now.
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 10:32 PM
Sep 2012

Most people here who support Chavez dismiss the violent crime and they never attempt to address it.

Capriles is going to win and when he does it is going to be interesting to see the reactions from the Capriles haters here.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
14. I'm appalled that there are any on this site who support the Right Wing in Venezuela
Mon Oct 8, 2012, 01:51 AM
Oct 2012

This is a Democratic site fyi where the Far Right used to never be popular. But we've seen an increase in Right Wing support in Latin America over the past few years.

I have friends in Venezuela who fully support Chavez and disagree with your assessment completely. They are determined that their country will never again end up in the hands of the Western Backed Right Wing who will return it to the poverty and illiteracy it experience before Chavez was elected.

You must really be upset at how popular Chavez is with the people of Venezuela who do actually live there.

Just so you know, we are very good at detecting Right Wing propaganda here. We have had lots of experience with it in this country also.

 

Mika

(17,751 posts)
17. I have been to Venezuela a number of times. I support Chavez & the PSUV.
Mon Oct 8, 2012, 03:02 PM
Oct 2012

As to the rest of your doggerel ...

Former US President Carter: Venezuelan Electoral System “Best in the World”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-us-president-carter-venezuelan-electoral-system-best-in-the-world/




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