Economy
Related: About this forumSTOCK MARKET WATCH -- Friday, 22 November 2013
[font size=3]STOCK MARKET WATCH, Friday, 22 November 2013[font color=black][/font]
SMW for 21 November 2013
AT THE CLOSING BELL ON 21 November 2013
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Dow Jones 16,009.99 +109.17 (0.69%)
S&P 500 1,795.85 +14.48 (0.81%)
Nasdaq 3,969.15 +47.88 (1.22%)
[font color=green]10 Year 2.78% -0.04 (-1.42%)
30 Year 3.89% -0.03 (-0.77%) [font color=black]
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[font size=2]Market Conditions During Trading Hours[/font]
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[font size=2]Euro, Yen, Loonie, Silver and Gold[center]
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[font color=black][font size=2]Handy Links - Market Data and News:[/font][/font]
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Economic Calendar
Marketwatch Data
Bloomberg Economic News
Yahoo Finance
Google Finance
Bank Tracker
Credit Union Tracker
Daily Job Cuts
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[font color=black][font size=2]Handy Links - Economic Blogs:[/font][/font]
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The Big Picture
Financial Sense
Calculated Risk
Naked Capitalism
Credit Writedowns
Brad DeLong
Bonddad
Atrios
goldmansachs666
The Stand-Up Economist
The Automatic Earth
Wall Street on Parade
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[font color=black][font size=2]Handy Links - Essential Reading:[/font][/font]
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Matt Taibi: Secret and Lies of the Bailout
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[font color=black][font size=2]Handy Links - Government Issues:[/font][/font]
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LegitGov
Open Government
Earmark Database
USA spending.gov
[/center][font color=black][font size=2]Handy Links - Videos:[/font][/font]
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Charlie Rose talks with Roubini
Charlie Rose talks with Krugman
William Black: This Economic Disaster
Bill Moyers with Kevin Drum and David Corn
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[font color=red]Partial List of Financial Sector Officials Convicted since 1/20/09 [/font][font color=red]
2/2/12 David Higgs and Salmaan Siddiqui, Credit Suisse, plead guilty to conspiracy involving valuation of MBS
3/6/12 Allen Stanford, former Caribbean billionaire and general schmuck, convicted on 13 of 14 counts in $2.2B Ponzi scheme, faces 20+ years in prison
6/4/12 Matthew Kluger, lawyer, sentenced to 12 years in prison, along with co-conspirator stock trader Garrett Bauer (9 years) and co-conspirator Kenneth Robinson (not yet sentenced) for 17 year insider trading scheme.
6/14/12 Allen Stanford sentenced to 110 years without parole.
6/15/12 Rajat Gupta, former Goldman Sachs director, found guilty of insider trading. Could face a decade in prison when sentenced later this year.
6/22/12 Timothy S. Durham, 49, former CEO of Fair Financial Company, convicted of one count conspiracy to commit wire and securities fraud, 10 counts of wire fraud, and one count of securities fraud.
6/22/12 James F. Cochran, 56, former chairman of the board of Fair, convicted of one count of conspiracy to commit wire and securities fraud, one count of securities fraud, and six counts of wire fraud.
6/22/12 Rick D. Snow, 48, former CFO of Fair, convicted of one count of conspiracy to commit wire and securities fraud, one count of securities fraud, and three counts of wire fraud.
7/13/12 Russell Wassendorf Sr., CEO of collapsed brokerage firm Peregrine Financial Group Inc. arrested and charged with lying to regulators after admitting to authorities he embezzled "millions of dollars" and forged bank statements for "nearly twenty years."
8/22/12 Doug Whitman, Whitman Capital LLC hedge fund founder, convicted of insider trading following a trial in which he spent more than two days on the stand telling jurors he was innocent
10/26/12 UPDATE: Former Goldman Sachs director Rajat Gupta sentenced to two years in federal prison. He will, of course, appeal. . .
11/20/12 Hedge fund manager Matthew Martoma charged with insider trading at SAC Capital Advisors, and prosecutors are looking at Martoma's boss, Steven Cohen, for possible involvement.
02/14/13 Gilbert Lopez, former chief accounting officer of Stanford Financial Group, and former controller Mark Kuhrt sentenced to 20 yrs in prison for their roles in Allen Sanford's $7.2 billion Ponzi scheme.
03/29/13 Michael Sternberg, portfolio mgr at SAC Capital, arrested in NYC, charged with conspiracy and securities fraud. Pled not guilty and freed on $3m bail.
04/04/13 Matthew Marshall Taylor,fmr Goldman Sachs trader arrested, charged by CFTC w/defrauding his employer on $8BN futures bet "by intentionally concealing the true huge size, as well as the risk and potential profits or losses associated."
04/04/13 Matthew Taylor admits guilt, makes plea bargain. Sentencing set for 26 June; faces up to 20 years in prison but will likely only see 3-4 years. Says, "I am truly sorry."
04/11/13 Ex-KPMG LLP partner Scott London charged by federal prosecutors w/passing inside tips to a friend in exchange for cash, jewelry, and concert tickets; expected to plead guilty in May.
08/01/13 Fabrice Tourré convicted on six counts of security fraud, including "aiding and abetting" his former employer, Goldman Sachs
08/14/13 Javier Martin-Artajo and Julien Grout charged with wire fraud, falsifying records, and conspiracy in connection with JP Morgan's "London Whale" trade.
08/19/13 Phillip A. Falcone, manager of hedge fund Harbinger Capital Partners, agrees to admit to "wrongdoing" in market manipulation. Will banned from securities industry for 5 years and pay $18MM in disgorgement and fines.
09/16/13 Javier Martin-Artajo and Julien Grout officially indicted on charges associated with "London Whale" trade.
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[font size=3][font color=red]This thread contains opinions and observations. Individuals may post their experiences, inferences and opinions on this thread. However, it should not be construed as advice. It is unethical (and probably illegal) for financial recommendations to be given here.[/font][/font][/font color=red][font color=black]
mrdmk
(2,943 posts)It may be a good time to start shorting some stocks. This is not a recommendation.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)In reality it will be unelected, largely un-named trade representatives supported and surrounded by a legion of lawyers, advisors and lobbyists, nearly all of whom will be recently seconded from or still in the pay of global corporations, who will meet behind closed doors to negotiate in secret. Whose interests will they be fighting for?
They, with the help of a largely supine and grovelling media, will claim to be there for you. They will be decked out in flags and called by the names of our nations or national groupings, such as the EU. But the truth will be otherwise. Behind the national name plate a largely unseen machinery will be almost entirely corporate. Both sides will be there to seek advantage, not for you the people, not for the nations whose flags they use as camouflage , but for the corporations who pay them. The US delegation will seek advantage for US based global corporations and the EU delegation will seek advanage for EU based global corporations. Both sides will be hailed victorious. The real question very carefully never ever raised by the compliant media will be who lost? And the answer, studiously unreported, will be the ordinary people of both sides.
The object of the whole endeavour is to roll back soveriegn protections and powers in favour of an unregulated, unfettered, free market. How can I make such a sweeping claim? Because we have seen the results of over 200 previous Free Trade Agreements which these same people have negotiated and agreed previously. Just think of NAFTA...
/... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-21/guest-post-new-world-order-%E2%80%93-part-1-betrayal-nation
xchrom
(108,903 posts)BANGKOK (AP) -- The Dow's first close above 16,000 pushed most world stocks higher Friday but gains were kept in check by worries the Federal Reserve will cut its monetary stimulus soon.
Asian and European markets were roiled earlier this week by Fed minutes suggesting the U.S. central bank will start reducing its $85 billion of monthly bond purchases in coming months.
The super-easy monetary has kept interest rates low to support economic recovery in the U.S. but also propelled money into higher yielding stocks. Frequent shifts in expectations about when the stimulus will be withdrawn have sparked gyrations in markets, up and down.
Stan Shamu, market strategist at IG in Melbourne, Australia said the "buoyant" performance of U.S. markets encouraged investors back into stocks even as the Fed guessing game remains on the radar.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)LONDON (AP) -- The scientist credited with inventing the World Wide Web says a growing tide of surveillance is threatening democracy's future.
Tim Berners-Lee, who developed the Web in 1990, has been a vocal critic of Internet surveillance. He said Friday that as more people use the Internet and social media to "expose wrongdoing," some governments are feeling threatened.
He said the result is a "growing tide of surveillance and censorship" that threatens the future of democracy, warning that "bold steps" must be taken to protect privacy rights and the freedom of opinion online.
His remarks came ahead of the launch in London of a report ranking which countries best use the Web. Sweden was ranked first, followed by Norway, the U.K. and the United States.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)WASHINGTON (AP) -- Eager to draw contrasts with Republicans, the White House is pushing its economic agenda as it attempts to give Democrats something to talk about other than the troubled health care rollout.
The White House is deploying Vice President Joe Biden and Cabinet members across the country, drawing attention to improvements in the still sluggish economic recovery and detailing the costs of last month's partial government shutdown.
On Tuesday, Obama will address the economy during a visit to the DreamWorks film studios in Glendale, Calif., and next month he plans to host a summit of college presidents and business leaders to push for more college access for disadvantaged students.
The offensive comes as Republicans plan a continuing assault on the health care law by building an anecdote-based indictment of the Affordable Care Act as it goes through its critical enrollment period.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)BRUSSELS (AP) -- Finance ministers from the 17 nations that use the euro currency are meeting for their first time to critique each other's spending plans for next year.
The Friday gathering in Brussels is supposed to help prevent the government overspending and miscalculation that plunged much of Europe's economy into recession. The ministers will be reacting to criticisms the European Union's executive branch issued of each country's proposed 2014 budget last week.
Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch finance minister, will chair the session, and told the French financial daily Les Echos he's looking forward to some frank talk.
He said: "I expect a real clash of ideas. The ministers must explain what they intend to do."
xchrom
(108,903 posts)PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told a gathering of 10,000 advocates for green construction Thursday that sustainability must be one of the country's top priorities.
Clinton, considered an potential contender for the 2016 Democratic presidential nomination, pulled on her experience as first lady, a U.S. Senator and the nation's top diplomat during a speech in Philadelphia at a conference at a conference presented by the U.S. Green Building Council. She told the conventioneers that they should continue to talk about their ideas in hopes of swaying more people that it makes ecological and financial sense.
"At the top of any agenda about America's future, sustainability has to be viewed as one of the key goals," she said in the speech at Temple University.
She talked about how she and her husband, former President Bill Clinton, had windows, heaters and even light bulbs replaced to make the White House more energy efficient. As a senator, Clinton said she supported green school buildings and, as secretary of the state, required new embassies and consulates to meet environmental standards while also encouraging other countries to impose environmental regulations.
antigop
(12,778 posts)women's rights, sustainability.....
Does she talk about wealth inequality, prosecuting banksters.. any economic issues?
Demeter
(85,373 posts)antigop
(12,778 posts)Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Exclusive: Li Keqiang says Beijing firmly supports European integration and wants to grow its economic ties with the region, targeting $1 trillion of trade with the EU by 2020
/... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/businesslatestnews/10466511/Chinese-Premier-We-want-bigger-ties-with-Europe.html
9:00PM GMT 21 Nov 2013
... I am pleased to see that many European countries are leaving recession behind them and the EU economy is being put on a more stable footing; China also has a good report card for its economy.
At the beginning of this year, the tough, complex situation, both domestically and internationally, placed mounting downward pressure on the Chinese economy. Some were predicting, as reported overseas, a hard landing for the Chinese economy and some even claimed it would go bust. We faced up to that pressure and stuck to the policy of not allowing either the deficit to grow or monetary expansion or contraction. Instead, we adopted a holistic approach based on innovative macro-economic management... We generated the internal driving force of economic growth, improved supply and boosted domestic demand through structural adjustment...
... As the world watched closely, the third Plenary Session of the 18th Communist Party of China Central Committee last week adopted a series of decisions aimed at comprehensively deepening reform in China. These decisions will not only speed up Chinas social and economic development, but also help address resources and environmental constraints, as well as uneven development between urban and rural areas and among different regions, thus bringing greater prosperity to the Chinese people and creating new opportunities for our relations with the outside world.
Chief among these are the growing ties between China and Europe...
/... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/10466545/A-stronger-China-Europe-partnership-will-bring-us-all-greater-prosperity.html
xchrom
(108,903 posts)To a certain kind of liberal, it's self-evident that the government should spend more money on universities. Cheap higher education for all has been a standard item on the left's wish list for decades. Since a degree is the only sure ticket to the middle class, the thinking goes, the government should do its best to make education accessible to all.
But is it possible that the left has gotten things upside down? Could it be that by more heavily subsidizing public colleges, we would inadvertently be taking state tax money from the poor and giving it to the rich? A few writers say that's the case. Our own Conor Friedersdorf called the idea of universal free college a "regressive scandal." Atlantic contributor Matt Bruenig has essentially argued the same.
This line of argument rests largely (though not entirely) on the idea that students who attend four-year state colleges skew wealthy. This sounds like a common sense point. Affluent children fare better in high school, are more likely to graduate, and usually have parents who themselves pursued higher education. And if we look at the population we typically think of as traditional college students (as Bruenig does in his analysis), it seems true enough. Just under a third of dependent college studentsdependent meaning that their parents are technically expected to help pay for schoolcome from families earning more than $104,096 a year, putting them in the richest 20 percent of U.S. households. Barely more than a third come from the bottom half of all households.
So is that case closed? Is State U. overfull of upper-income kids? Well, not quite.
The trouble is that a huge chunk of college goers aren't actually 18-year-olds living off an allowance from mom and dad. At four-year public institutions, about 36 percent of students are considered financially "independent," which is a catch-all category for people who break the typical undergraduate mold. How so? You can qualify as independent a few ways, including if you're married, over the age of 24, an orphan, are a military veteran, or have your own children. But the key part is this: Everyone assumes you'll be paying your own way through school (and as a result, you might receive more financial aid).
xchrom
(108,903 posts)All the drones, synthetic biologists, and self-driving cars notwithstanding, the story of how companies quantify, analyze, and try to predict your job performance may be the most important story in technology.
That is to say, when we look back in 20 years about what has changed in our lives, we will be able to find this thread of data-driven personnel decision making as the thing that's changed people's lives the most.
My colleague Don Peck has an unnerving feature in this month's magazine on precisely this issue: "They're Watching You At Work." I highly encourage you to absorb this tale's anecdotes and data.
After reading it, your gut may feel optimistic, like his, or queasy, like mine. Because the "Moneyballing" of human resources and corporate management has already begun, and who is going to stop it?
Demeter
(85,373 posts)and their lunch gets eaten by the people they reject.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)xchrom
(108,903 posts)China, the world's largest energy consumer, on Friday took a step towards launching a market of its own for crude oil futures -- which foreign investors may be allowed to trade.
Authorities and an existing exchange in Shanghai set up a company to operate a trading platform for the planned future contracts in the city's new free-trade zone (FTZ), state media and officials said.
The location -- separate from the financial hub's stock exchange and futures exchanges -- is a sign that foreigners may be allowed to take part in the market, which could eventually challenge Singapore's dominance in Asian energy trading.
China has pledged freer capital flows and the introduction of more financial products in the FTZ, which was established in late September.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/china-plans-to-launch-its-own-crude-oil-futures-market-2013-11#ixzz2lNj3nOyF
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Dan Greenhaus of BTIG (@danBTIG) includes this chart in his latest nightly email. It shows the current market aligned with the market in the days before the Depression.
What does the chart mean?
Dan has the best take:
Indeed, we recently devoted an entire conference speech to pushing back on the idea of an equity bubble. How do we know the story remains? The chart below, overlaying the S&P 500 today against equities in the 20s/30s is now starting to make the rounds. Without getting too personal, chart overlaying is lazy and this is no less so. But it does remind us that as much as everyone thinks everyone else is all bulled up, these views still persist and have shown no indication they are going away any time soon.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-comparing-now-to-great-depression-crash-2013-11#ixzz2lNjsAPY5
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Nowhere in the world have we seen prices surge more violently than in India.
"The recently released WPI for October 2013 shows Indias food inflation jumped by 18.2% yoy, the fifth straight month of double-digit inflation," noted Societe Generale's Kunal Kundu.
Food price fluctuations are usually a function of supply, which is often linked to natural forces, and demand, which is often linked to changing tastes.
Societe Generale
It's only going up.
In India, however, food price inflation is tied to dysfunctional government policy. Kundu explains:
An important contributor to this is high and rising MSPs (Minimum Support Price). The MSP is used as a tool to incentivise farmers to produce food grain and help them during periods of crop failure. However, like all other social sector spending, it has become a tool to appease farmers as their votes influence the final election outcome. While MSPs are supposed to be used as a tool to compensate farmers in particular during periods of stress like dough and/or flood (which means that during normal periods, MSPs ought to be lowered or even suspended), in reality MSPs in India have always moved in one direction, up!
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-india-food-inflation-is-high-2013-11#ixzz2lNkOHMLB
Demeter
(85,373 posts)due to GMO seeds and Roundup costs, drought, etc.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)The capital market for new issues and refinancing of corporate debt has been on a tear the past few months I think that ended yesterday. Thats because the dreaded Taper Talk has resurfaced. The Fed minutes yesterday rekindled Fear of Taper.
The Taper On/Taper Off story has been with us for six months now. It started in May with the release of the Fed minutes and the first whisper of the Taper. The talk of the Taper reached a zenith in late September as the debt markets were convinced that Bernanke would start the Taper in October. It was a big surprise to players when Good Ole Ben chose to delay the October start and push it to sometime in the future; and now its back.
An interesting consequence of Taper Talk is how it affects the Corporate new issue bond calendar. The following chart shows how talk of taper killed the ReFi market in June/July/October, and it also shows how the window for new issues opened right after Big Ben delayed the taper for a few months. Up until yesterday the corporate finance types and bond dealers on Wall Street were having a daily party. As of today, they will be back to struggling to push deals out the door.
Read more: http://brucekrasting.com/taper-talk-back-going-away-time/#ixzz2lNnAovsG
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Minneapolis Fed President Narayana Kocherlakota
Two top economists are out at the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis after the pair "differed philosophically" from bank President Narayana Kocherlakota, the Star Tribune's Adam Belz reports.
Patrick Kehoe, a faculty member at the University of Minnesota, was the bank's top-ranked research economist. Ellen McGrattan, who joined the Minneapolis Fed in 1992 and was the bank's third-ranked economist, will go on unpaid leave and take a position at "the U" as well.
The departure of the two star economists has "raised eyebrows" in the academic community, according to the report.
The Minneapolis Fed has long been seen as a stalwart of research, joining with the nearby university to foster an academic brain trust. From the Star Tribune:
McGrattan said she does not know why Kocherlakota would fire Kehoe or let her leave Its absolutely mysterious to us, she said but the circle of advisers to the president has shrunk since he arrived and she has been frozen out.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/scandal-rocks-kocherlakota-fed-2013-11#ixzz2lNs5xkJ4
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Janet Yellen is closer to becoming the next head of the US Federal Reserve after her nomination was approved by a US Senate banking committee.
Ms Yellen, 67, is currently the Fed's deputy chair and will replace incumbent Ben Bernanke in January, becoming the first woman ever to hold the post.
US president Barack Obama nominated her for the role in October.
Her nomination was expected after former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers withdrew his candidacy in September.
DemReadingDU
(16,000 posts)Demeter
(85,373 posts)but the next Pres. will. Right after the Taper disaster.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)China successfully flew a stealth drone for the first time on Thursday, state media said, citing eyewitness reports.
A drone, called "Sharp Sword" by the media, made a test flight for around 20 minutes in Chengdu, reports said.
China has been developing stealth aircraft in recent years, including J-20 and J-31 stealth fighters.
In September, an unmanned drone flew close to a group of disputed islands in the East China Sea, raising tensions with Japan.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Right-Wing Author Abandons Cultural Populism, Decries White Trash
Michelle Goldberg on November 21, 2013 - 1:17 PM ET
Conservative author Charlotte Hays pans a popular culture associated with lower middle class, white America. (AP/Steve Helber)
Charlotte Hays, the conservative writer and director of cultural programs at the anti-feminist Independent Womens Forum, has a new book out, titled When Did White Trash Become the New Normal? A Southern Lady Asks the Impertinent Question. A broadside against the moral and aesthetic failures of the lower orders, its a fascinating work, not for what it says but for what it represents. Its a sign that at least some on the right are abandoning the NASCAR-fetishizing Palinesque faux-populism of recent decades for a more overt style of class warfare.
A chapter on the foreclosure crisis and crushing student debt, for example, is called White Trash Money Management. There are, I thus adduce, two keys to not being White Trash: having a job and paying your bills on time, Hays sniffs. The first is getting more difficult in this economy, but it is still White Trash to go on disability if you arent positively unable to lift a finger.
Hayss work is saturated with that partiuclar kind of right-wing smugness born of the conviction that ones willingness to express common prejudices is a sign of free-thinking audacity. Whats interesting is where its directednot at liberals or their sacred cows, but at fat, broke, ordinary Americans. We look like hell as a nation, and fat people bear a large brunt of responsibility for this, she writes. I can remember when going to New York meant seeing beautiful, pencil-thin people in stylish clothes on Fifth Avenue. Where are they now? The other day I saw a fat guy in polyester in my favorite New York restaurant. Heaven forfend! Shes so delighted with her description of diabetes as the talismanic White Trash disease that she uses it twice.
This marks quite a change from the dominant conservative style of the last two decades. Until recently, the modern right defined itself in opposition to caricatured elitistsparticularly fashionable New Yorkers. Think of the Club For Growths famous anti-Howard Dean commercial, with the earthy old couple decrying the candidates tax-hiking, government-expanding, latte-drinking, sushi-eating, volvo-driving, New York Timesreading, body-piercing, Hollywood-loving left-wing freak show. Tom Franks hugely successful Whats the Matter With Kansas? was all about this sort of ostentatious down-home shtick. In the backlash imagination, America is always in a state of quasi-civil war, he wrote. [O]n one side are the unpretentious millions of authentic Americans; on the other stand the bookish, all-powerful liberals who run the country but are contemptuous of the tastes and beliefs of the people who inhabit it.
This style, obviously, hasnt entirely vanished from the right, but lately a bit of overt disgust towards those unpretentious millions has crept in. Or maybe crept outif conservatives once tried to keep their contempt for hoi polloi behind closed doors, Mitt Romneystyle, now theyre displaying it proudly.
You can see it in the growing prominence of Foxs Stuart Varney, who got his own show on Fox Business Network in 2011. When hes not giving interviews about his love of juicing and his many estates, Varney specializes in sneering at the poor in an impossibly posh English accent. (Many of them have things, he once said. What they lack is the richness of spirit.) Then theres Charles Murray, who, taking a break from theorizing the innate inferiority of African-Americans, turned his attention to inequality among white people in last years Coming Apart: The State of White America, 19602010. That book argued, among other things, that a decay in industriousness among working-class white men, not decay in the labor market, is a major factor in our countrys growing class divide.
And now we have this nasty little book, which has received favorable coverage in National Review, The Washington Times and The Weekly Standard. Writing in the latter, Judy Bachrach called it a plaintive tract . a serious political one, in fact. In a sense, Bachrach is right. Hayss flip dehumanization of struggling people does have a serious purpose. Its becoming increasingly hard to ignore inequalitys ravages or to blame them on gay marriage or snotty university professors. Conservatives find themselves faced with a choice: either acknowledge that our economic system is failing the American people, or deride the American people for failing our economic system.
Hays opts for the latter. Her books message is essentially the same as Murrays: Americans are falling behind because they are lazy and dissolute. She even mocks the idea that full-time work alone should be enough to escape poverty. The colonists at Jamestown and Plymouth, she writes, knew you had to work full timeand then someand maybe still do a little starving.
Please support our journalism. Get a digital subscription for just $9.50!
In some ways, its nice to see right-wingers drop their everyman act and be forthright in their defense of traditional hierarchiesat least theyre being honest. Still, as La Rochefoucauld famously said, Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue. Hayss book shows us what it looks like when ugly, vulgar ideas are displayed without shame. Maybe wed be better off with at least a pretense of decency.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)antigop
(12,778 posts)If you want to know where this crap about health care "consumers" comes from, look no further than Harvard....
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2013/11/why-does-health-care-cost-so-much-in-america-ask-harvards-david-cutler.html
Paul Solman: So that will provide comparison shopping.
David Cutler: That's on the demand side. Give people more skin in the game and give them the information so they can do real shopping.
Paul Solman: More skin in the game, meaning higher co-pays?
David Cutler: Higher co-pays. We know that people respond to co-payments and they like cheaper care.
...
In a lot of parts of the country, they're just saying, "Look, if you want this service at all, you're going to pay a lot of money." The trend in health care nationally is to put more and more on the patient.
Kudos to the poster klltalley who replied to that article:
I get so tired of listening to people like Harvards David Cutler referring to healthcare patients as consumers. Like I am going out to buy a TV rather than wondering if the experts are going to be able to save my life while sick as a dog.
And more skin in the game. As if when I am in a car accident or have a heart attack or kidney stones or diabetes, a patient has any real choices except to deal with the bills assuming they survive.
Lambert:
What could go wrong? Consumer, my sweet Aunt Fanny. Are these people demented?
Read the whole thing....
Warpy
(111,174 posts)when they're starting to have a heart attack. Yeah, right.
This is why all the "skin in the game" in the world won't matter. Getting sick is not a consumer decision and putting the onus of comparison shopping upon people in crisis is not only beyond stupid, it's unconscionably cruel.
I hate these ivory tower right wingers who have never had a real crisis in their lives, ever. To them, a crisis is burst plumbing in their favorite restaurant, forcing them to dine elsewhere.
antigop
(12,778 posts)antigop
(12,778 posts)We used to know better than this.
Medical care is an area in which crucial decisions life and death decisions must be made; yet making those decisions intelligently requires a vast amount of specialized knowledge; and often those decisions must also be made under conditions in which the patient is incapacitated, under severe stress, or needs action immediately, with no time for discussion, let alone comparison shopping.
Thats why we have medical ethics. Thats why doctors have traditionally both been viewed as something special and been expected to behave according to higher standards than the average professional. Theres a reason we have TV series about heroic doctors, while we dont have TV series about heroic middle managers or heroic economists.
The idea that all this can be reduced to money that doctors are just people selling services to consumers of health care is, well, sickening. And the prevalence of this kind of language is a sign that something has gone very wrong not just with this discussion, but with our societys values.