Senator Wyden: Fukushima Worse Than Reported

[BridgeTheGap]

apan, with assistance from the U.S. government, needs to do more to move spent fuel rods out of harm's way at the tsunami-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, said U.S. Senator Ron Wyden on Monday.

Wyden, a senior Democratic senator on the Senate Energy committee, toured the ruined Fukushima plant on April 6, and said the damage was far worse than he expected.

"Seeing the extent of the disaster first-hand during my visit conveyed the magnitude of this tragedy and the continuing risks and challenges in a way that news accounts cannot," said Wyden in a letter to Ichiro Fujisaki, Japan's ambassador to the United States.

Last March, an earthquake followed by a tsunami wrecked the Fukushima plant, causing the world's worst nuclear accident in 25 years and prompting global scrutiny of the safety of nuclear power plants.

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/344-208/10988-senator-wyden-fukushima-worse-than-reported

[grasswire]

1. thank you Senator Wyden n/t

[Voice for Peace]

2. all the pro-nuclear folks should pay a visit

maybe it would scare them enough to think more creatively about alternative energy

[kristopher]

7. Creativity really isn't the problem.

We have all we can do to put in place the needed renewable technologies we have already developed.

[Voice for Peace]

10. I guess what I meant is that the people in power

need to think more creatively.

You are right about no lack of creativity otherwise,
and I love hearing it.

This planet is overflowing with brilliant creative minds
and solutions for every problem we face.

It's the people in power who need their horizons widened.

[Richard D]

3. I really don't understand . . .

. . . why the combined technological force of the world isn't on this.

[raouldukelives]

6. So true. Maybe they are minimizing the

response under pressure from nuclear power aficionados to save billions of dollars in govt contracts for new facilities. Last thing anyone connected with Wall St wants to see is people demanding environmental safety over money.

[Javaman]

8. Because as per Rachel Maddow last week...

Last edited Wed Apr 18, 2012, 09:04 AM - Edit history (1)

the technology to remove the fuel rods doesn't exist.

The radiation where the rods are located is so high that a human being would be dead, if exposed, in a matter of minutes.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but the "rods" aren't rods anymore, they are piles of metal on the floor of the containment unit.

This isn't something that can happen right away, as much as we all want it to.

I understand the Senators outrage and I completely agree with him, but the fact remains, there is no tech on earth currently that exists to remove the "rods" safely.

[madokie]

11. Thats the part that sticks in my crawl

There is no way that currently exist to remove the fuel rods safely. Think about that for a minute.
They were like a kid in a candy store. As soon as they figured out how to split an atom and make a big boom they started scheming on how they were going to harness that energy for boiling water to make steam. Never a thought was there about what if and oh shit, you know what I'm saying. They spent their whole time it seems in figuring out how to harness all this energy and it seems not much time was spent on figuring out how to deal with it under all circumstances at all times. Should have been a requirement from the get go.

Shut the nukes down, Dig a hole and bury them whatever. We can take care of business without them if we have too.

[RobertEarl]

13. Like the unsinkable Titanic?

Men, well the profit driven greed-head-men of whom we have allowed to become out-of-control, think they are infallible, or at least can't see a profit in ever thinking they will fail.

So why plan for something that would not be profitable?

Keeping the spent fuel safe means a financial loss and therefore despite all the knowledge and wisdom a few brave souls could could muster to ensure safety, Fukups never factored that certain loss into the equation.

But here it is, in full-blown reality. What a shameful legacy we leave our families and their future. I am truly and deeply embarrassed that we didn't do the right thing when we had a chance.

&&


"Love thine enemy", Is something i work hard to do.

When it comes to the nukers and their ilk, that 'Love' is really being tested.

[Javaman]

19. It was their arrogance that did us all in...

they didn't come up with a plan to fix problems like this because they stupidly thought there would never be problems like this.

[jeff47]

9. Because it's not a threat to the world

It's a threat to Japan, and maybe Korea.

There's people claiming it's a threat to the world. But those claims are similar to the claims that the west coast of the US was going to be rendered uninhabitable when the tsunami crossed the Pacific. They do a great job of stirring up fear, but don't have a basis in reality.

The cleanup work is exceptionally dangerous, and the solutions are all variations of "bad". As such it's going to be very hard to get people from areas that won't be affected involved, especially when it's not clear other countries could provide much assistance. For example, it appears to me that the cleanup is going to require extensive use of robotics. Japan doesn't need anyone else's assistance there, because Japan is already a leader in robotics.

About all the US could offer is empty land to bury the fuel, and that's a political non-starter.

[RobertEarl]

12. We have us ANOTHER expert, eh?

So very glad you chimed in. Ya see, because plutonium from Fuku spread around the world, and tons of radiated water were dumped into the Pacific, I was getting a little worried about all this. And now a US Senator sticks HIS neck out and I tell ya, it kinda alarmed me even more.

But now with you here, all my worries are over: "...not a threat to the world" means not a threat to me way over here in the SE of the USA. Thank God!!

Oh shit, wait. You ain't an expert, are you? In fact, you didn't place one fact on your post, did you? Well, maybe you did, but overall, you have nothing but crap like this: "...not clear other countries could provide much assistance". What a load. What a close minded load of bunk. No one else can help Japan? Like Japan knows what they are doing even tho after a year has gone by and there is still a HUGE problem?

For a nano-second there you had me fooled. Just a nano.

[jeff47]

14. If you want to claim a threat, do the math.

Tons of radiated water dumped into the Pacific sounds enormous. We're all gonna die!!!

Except the pacific is 64.1 million square miles with an average depth of 2.7 miles (source). Meaning it's about 170 million cubic miles of water.

At 32 degrees F, water weighs 62.42lbs per cubic foot (And I'm using 32 degrees for convenience - I don't know the average temperature of the Pacific, but it doesn't change much within reasonable ocean temperatures - 62lbs per cubic foot at 100 degrees F).

So...The Pacific weighs about 780,000,000,000,000,000 (7.8 x 10^17) tons.

Let's say they dumped 100 tons of water into the ocean. That's a lot of water. But it's 0.00000000000128% (1.28 x 10^-14 percent) of the Pacific Ocean.

Suddenly, claims that that water is going to poison the entire Pacific seem significantly less plausible.

No one else can help Japan? Like Japan knows what they are doing even tho after a year has gone by and there is still a HUGE problem?

Uh-huh. Just how long should this cleanup take? I mean, you yourself must be some sort of expert since you know exactly how long the cleanup should take.

Oh wait, you're just spewing fear without even bothering to break out a calculator, much less showing any expertise.

So...how long did it take to clean up Chernobyl? Oh wait...they're not done yet. So you expect Fukushima be cleaned up in a year, when it's been 26 years since Chernobyl and they're not done.

[RobertEarl]

15. wow

Do you know how far the radiation spreads in the Pacific? Did you know they have found it off the coast of California?

You might try to answer the other points instead of going off on tangents. But like you say, Chernobyl, 25 years later is NOT cleaned up. And pray tell, how do we go about collecting all the plutonium that HAS been spread from Fuku?

And while you at it, tell us just how much plutonium may be in the spent fuel pools at Fuku? All the while remembering that there were no spent fuel pools, or much if any plutonium at Chernobyl.

Anyway, your argument is against Senator Wyden and guess who I am gonna side with? You, or Wyden?

[jeff47]

16. Detecting a molecule is easy. Getting harmed by it, not so much.

To get harmed by radiation from Fukushima, you have to be exposed to enough material. How much did they detect?

Oh wait, you don't know. You're again spewing FUD.

And pray tell, how do we go about collecting all the plutonium that HAS been spread from Fuku?

We don't. It's been diluted so much it isn't harmful outside Japan. Much like we didn't dig up all the soil in Europe to collect all the radioactive material from Chernobyl.

And while you at it, tell us just how much plutonium may be in the spent fuel pools at Fuku?

So you can't use a calculator nor Google?

Anyway, your argument is against Senator Wyden

No, actually it isn't. See, you're claiming the disaster is a danger to the entire world, or at best large swaths of the planet. I'm not. Neither is Senator Wyden. He's concerned about the spent fuel pools, and apparently never realized how bad it was.

who I am gonna side with? You, or Wyden?

Perhaps reading Wyden's statement might help you figure that out...since Wyden and I do not disagree.

[RobertEarl]

17. wow again

Radiation at any dose is harmful. Especially to kids. Especially to female kids.

And one speck of inhaled or ingested plutonium can cause deadly cancer.

So it is obvious you haven't any knowledge about this stuff. You should just quit before you are laughed off the stage.

If Wyden did not see a threat to America, or even to the great dairy farms on the Pacific coast in Oregon where Cesium from Fukushima has been deposited, why is he now sticking his neck out?

If you think he agrees with you, I am just laughing.

[jeff47]

22. So kids and especially female kids live in lead-lined safes?

Walk outside during the day. You just got hit by deadly radiation. So clearly we should never let kids go outside, right?

There's radioactive strontium still in the atmosphere from above-ground nuclear testing. It gets breathed in all the time. So clearly no kids have survived the last 50 years, because the radioactive particles they inhaled must have killed them.

Or maybe you're massively over-reacting. Radiation is dangerous in sufficient quantities. That's what I'm saying and it's not some extreme position.

And one speck of inhaled or ingested plutonium can cause deadly cancer.

One speck is a few trillion atoms. We're talking about concentrations down to single atoms.

If Wyden did not see a threat to America, or even to the great dairy farms on the Pacific coast in Oregon where Cesium from Fukushima has been deposited, why is he now sticking his neck out?

How is he sticking his neck out? You are seriously arguing that saying "disaster bad!!" is a controversial position.

[Javaman]

23. I know you

are a pro-nuke, but please don't let facts get in the way of a good rant, right?

Meh, all your proclimations still doesn't fix the currently unfixable.

there is still no tech in existance to fix the problem.

have a great day and bless your heart.

[jeff47]

40. Feel free to cite any incorrect fact. (nt)

[FBaggins]

24. Wrong again.

Radiation at any dose is harmful.

Dead wrong. There is zero evidence that this is a correct statement... and not a single expert would agree with the statement.

The error you're making is that you failed to stick to the party line. You're supposed to be very careful to say "there is no safe level" and leave it to the ignorant listener to translate that to "any level is dangerous".

But the two statements don't mean the same thing... and the one you used is flat wrong.

[RobertEarl]

26. Oh?

Lets be clear, shall we? When i claim 'any dose is harmful' i am talking about radiation from nuke plants.

To deny that is just stupid. Indeed, most every form of radiation is harmful to DNA and cellular composition in that when a dose of radiation is directed at the human body changes are forced.

It's like this: You are sitting there with your philosophy and agenda like a single cell amoeba. When you are forced to see the truth your agenda and philosophy is changed and that becomes harmful to your agenda and philosophy.

Now, you may want to look up what harmful means and see how that applies to your condition. RE: Has Baggins been successful in selling to the world your dream-world idea of safely exploding NPP's.

[FBaggins]

27. Yes.

Lets be clear, shall we? When i claim 'any dose is harmful' i am talking about radiation from nuke plants.

Oh you were pretty clear. And I'd personally like to thank you for proving that the belief that an alpha particle from a nuclear plant is different from an alpha particle from mamma Nature is not just a false characature of the anti-nuke ignorance. There really are people who believe that nonsense.

Let me be equally clear. The claim that any amount of radiation is harmful (or any amount of "artificial" radiation) is flat wrong. You can claim that's "stupid", but doing so would only highlight your own ignorance. Sorry.

[Javaman]

20. So robots will save us all!

LOL

do you know that there is no technology in existance that can handle the levels of radiation currently spewing out from that reactor?

read my post at #8.

[jeff47]

21. You are aware that people invent new stuff, right?

Something remotely operated is going to work far better than getting humans in there. Which means robotics. Which means the Japanese are already closer to inventing it than most other countries.

This isn't rocket science...... /rimshot

[Javaman]

38. robots are going to save us all!!!

you really don't know what you are talking about do you?

let's end it here before you embarrass yourself any further.

[jeff47]

39. Well, considering your claim is we have to abandon Japan for the next few hundred years

I'm not sure who's exactly getting embarrassed.

(If there's no way to clean it up, the only thing left is to evacuate. So by claiming there's no way to clean it and will never ever ever be any way, you're saying it's time to empty the island.)

[Javaman]

41. Where did I say that?

we're done.

Now you're just making stuff up.

go play with your robots.

[abelenkpe]

4. More....

Wyden said he was most worried about spent fuel rods stored in damaged pools adjacent to the ocean, and urged the Japanese government to accept international help to prevent further release of the radioactive material if another earthquake should happen.

In a statement on his website, Wyden said the only protection for the pools from another tsunami appeared to be "a small, makeshift sea wall erected out of bags of rock."

Wyden said the spent fuel should be moved to safer storage sooner than anticipated under a 10-year clean-up plan from TEPCO, the owner of the nuclear plant.

The lawmaker also wrote to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Energy Secretary Steven Chu and top U.S. nuclear regulator Gregory Jaczko to ask them to find ways to help Japan address the problem.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surprised more hasn't already been done to prevent further release of radioactive materials. Why on earth would anyone accept a ten year plan to clean that place up?

[RobertEarl]

18. Big technical hurdle to be overcome

And why Japan needs help.......

The newer stored fuel rods if exposed to air, become so hot they burn or even explode. The rods were actually removed from the reactor to the pools while immersed in water.

It usually takes ten years for the rods to become safe to move in air.

There is a great deal of speculation that some explosions were caused by pools which were drained of water then overheated and exploded. The pools were rapidly refilled and more explosions averted.

Remember, these pools are, at the the top, one hundred feet high. And maybe fifty feet deep. That is a lot of water.

[FBaggins]

25. Well... it looks like you spelled that correctly

but little else was correct.

The newer stored fuel rods if exposed to air, become so hot they burn or even explode.

You seriously believe that? Are they going to leave them out in the air for days?

It usually takes ten years for the rods to become safe to move in air.

So all those dry storage casks filled with fuel that only needs to sit in a pool for five years are time bombs waiting to go off at any second, right?

There is a great deal of speculation that some explosions were caused by pools which were drained of water then overheated and exploded.

Such speculation would be limited to people who don't have a clue how the physics works... they were proven wrong many months ago and no doubt remains (not that there was any to begin with). If the pools drained, how were they repaired so that they now hold "alot of water"?

The pools were rapidly refilled and more explosions averted.

And the fuel rods magically reformed later, right?

No wait! I know what happened. The people who claim they can't remove the fuel for years were actually able to empty the pools in the middle of the night and replace the destroyed racks/rods/etc with fakes. Yeah... that's the ticket.

[RobertEarl]

28. Guess this is news to you?

The pools of water holding the rods, keeping them from heating up and exploding, had huge pipes running from ground level UP to the pools. The earthquake damaged those pipes causing them to leak draining the pools, leaving the hot-rods to explode.

You saw the videos of explosions, right?

[FBaggins]

29. It would be news to anyone

since it didn't happen. It would also be pretty dumb design to do it the way you hint they did (basically a drain pipe that would empty the pool if it wasn't plugged). In reality water has to be pumped OUT as well as IN.

You saw the videos of explosions, right?

Yep. So you think that any fantasy explanation for an explosion is therefore justified? The fact that they knew they were venting hydrogen and that hydrogen and oxygen are an explosive mix just blew right by you, eh?

Once again. Have you not seen the videos from inside the pools? You really think there's anyone left who buys the "prompt critical nuclear explosion" BS at this point?

By which I of course mean "anyone" who got past 4th grade math?

[RobertEarl]

30. it was dumb

We agree.

To plumb those tanks so that they would drain out when the pipe broke was absolutely the dumbest f'n thing they could do. The explosions prove that, and Senator Wyden recognizes it too.

Of course your idea that water does not drain down, that water MUST be pumped down, leaves me wondering about your grade level.

[FBaggins]

31. You're really pro-nuke, aren't you?

Just trying to make the anti position look foolish, right?

The explosions prove that

Oh please. You can't really be that dense. There was no substance to this nonsense when Arnie invented it a year ago... but it has long since been proven wrong.

The pool would have to be dry (drained or boiled off), then the fuel would have to melt, then it would have to combine in a highly unlikely configuration to restart active fission and "explode".

Can you expand on your fantasy enough to explain why the images from the pools don't support this?

Senator Wyden recognizes it too.

Please copy us his statement demonstrating the depth of his ignorance.

Of course your idea that water does not drain down, that water MUST be pumped down, leaves me wondering about your grade level.

Chyeah. While we're talking about grade level. Ask some kindergartener whether your toilet drains when you haven't flushed it.

This isn't rocket science... but you're out of your depth.

[RobertEarl]

32. What....

Are you mumbling about? Good God, get a grip!!

What we are faced with is a situation that is an all new experience. It is an all new field of nuclear science. There being not one clear concise statement from TEPCO, the NRC or anybody about what happened, we are left to speculate.

And here you are mumbling about toilets that hold water (newsflash: there is a trap built into toilets) and other mundane items that have nothing to do with Fukshima all in an attempt to obfuscate and coverup the situation.

For the other readers here, know this: the level of water in the pools was effected by lack of pumps, broken pipes, and or, cracks in the pools. The water levels went down enough to allow the heat decay of the rods to become uncontrolled. Overheating of just the tops of the rods would be enough to create steam and other reactions leading to explosions.

If these elevated pools of water and hot-rods (at least 50 feet high from the ground) somehow were to be toppled by an earthquake or collapse of their foundations, and they fall to the ground, any hope of controlling the reactions will end.

That's what Wyden is suggesting and as far as I can tell, is the truth.

[FBaggins]

33. Thanks for making it so easy.

newsflash: there is a trap built into toilets

Duh. And that's just because you'll get a bad smell without it. Yet you're actually trying to sell a BS line that they leave off something so simple in a pool for spent reactor fuel!?!?!?

What we are faced with is a situation that is an all new experience. It is an all new field of nuclear science.

Not really. But even if that were true, on what basis does it allow you to make up new facts that contradict the science that already exists?

For the other readers here, know this: the level of water in the pools was effected by lack of pumps, broken pipes, and or, cracks in the pools. The water levels went down enough to allow the heat decay of the rods to become uncontrolled.

Prove it. Provide a single link to a single news source (not a UFO/conspiracy theory website) saying anything like this. There was at one point a (false) report that one of the pools had boiled dry, but this fantasy that multiple pools drained dry because the pipes broke and didn't even have a trap... exists only in your imagination.

Overheating of just the tops of the rods would be enough to create steam and other reactions leading to explosions.

Dead wrong (yet again). "Steam" is easy... you don't need to expose anything to get steam... but steam doesn't explode when it isn't constrained (a pressure explosion). "Other reactions" is the creation of hydrogen (which happens even without overheating, but not to the same extent)... but you're not talking about hydrogren explosions. The only way to get the fuel to "explode" would require the water to be gone. The fuel has to melt and change configuration into something that could resume criticality. You could sell that lie to the ignorant a year ago... but not today. Look at all of the video from pool 4. It's obvious that nothing melted there, let alone exploded.

If these elevated pools of water and hot-rods (at least 50 feet high from the ground) somehow were to be toppled by an earthquake or collapse of their foundations, and they fall to the ground, any hope of controlling the reactions will end.

And if the tooth fairy were to turn evil and steal the russian nuclear launch codes and use them... that would be bad too.

[RobertEarl]

34. that is sad, FBaggins

You have refuted nothing. Or offered up anything approaching any reality of the situation. Offered no official reports. You are just mumbling.

The science that has been released says that the rods having been exposed to air created hydrogen gas which exploded.

And as is quite evident, each of the 4 reactor buildings have each in their own way gone out of control. There are 4 different scenarios happening which have never happened before and that is why there is no one concise report... because they are still trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

And you don't know, either. How could you? They have not told you, or anyone. Why have they not told you or anyone?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW

[FBaggins]

35. Lol... I've only give you facts.

Or offered up anything approaching any reality of the situation. Offered no official reports. You are just mumbling.

Can you tell me which of your posts includes those official reports, etc?

But hey... this shouldn't be hard. Here's one from almost a year ago.

US: spent fuel pool never went dry in Japan quake

Water used to cool radioactive waste at the stricken nuclear complex in Japan did not dry up, as earlier feared, U.S. regulators said Wednesday in a reversal of a claim that pitted U.S. officials against Japan in the days after that country's nuclear disaster.

U.S. officials, most notably Nuclear Regulatory Chairman Gregory Jaczko, had warned that all the water was gone from one of the spent fuel pools at Japan's troubled nuclear plant, which would have raised the possibility of widespread nuclear fallout.
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/4626

The science that has been released says that the rods having been exposed to air created hydrogen gas which exploded.

Close, but no cigar. It says that the overheating rods in the cores (and not "exposed to air&quot created hydrogen gas which exploded after it was vented from containment. It nowhere says that fuel in the spent fuel pools had anything to do with the explosions. Nor does any report say that broken piping caused the pools to drain.

The entire scenario exists only in your imagination.

BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW

You can't use a lack of clarity on things that can't yet be known as an excuse to posit just any theory you like. You can't just make up BS about spent fuel rods exploding if they're exposed to air in less than ten years. You can't say that "plutonium spread around the world" when they have yet to identify any plutonium off the reactor site in concentrations higher than what existed pre-fukushima.

[RobertEarl]

36. Your one fact

Here is what you claimed: "Water has to be pumped down"

Which is absolutely asinine. Which you then transpired into: they had 'traps' on the pools that would keep the pools from draining like a toilet.

And you expect anyone to believe anything else you profess?

Actually, I am done with you, here. You are circling the toilet and I am climbing out of this bowl I somehow got caught up in.

[FBaggins]

37. Claiming it's "asinine" just puts your own ignorance on display.

Are you going to tell me that the science here is in question too?

The original system is pretty straightforward and it's simply wrong to pretend that you drain it by breaking a pipe. The toilet example was an attempt to dumb it down so that you could understand it... but I guess that was a waste of time.

Here's another link for you

http://enenews.com/trouble-at-sfp-no-4-workers-find-large-hole-in-wall-water-injections-not-enough-to-cool-pool

They also discovered that a nearby pipe necessary for the cooling system had been mangled. [...] Fixing the damaged pipe is expected to be extremely difficult. [...]

This is SFP piping that's still destroyed months after the incident... yet there remains water in the pool.

Must be magic!



Actually, I am done with you, here.

What a shock. I would have dropped out in embarassment too if I was making myself look that foolish. But hey... thanks for the free entertainment!

[JEB]

5. Check this

&list=FL48yBg13Sd5D_DVGUIa8-FA&index=19&feature=plpp_video