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nitpicker

(7,153 posts)
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 12:36 PM Aug 2020

UK firm's solar power breakthrough could make world's most efficient panels by 2021

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/15/uk-firms-solar-power-breakthrough-could-make-worlds-most-efficient-panels-by-2021

UK firm's solar power breakthrough could make world's most efficient panels by 2021

Jillian Ambrose Energy correspondent

Sat 15 Aug 2020 00.00 BST

British rooftops could be hosting a breakthrough in new solar power technology by next summer, using a crystal first discovered more than 200 years ago to help harness more of the sun’s power.

An Oxford-based solar technology firm hopes by the end of the year to begin manufacturing the world’s most efficient solar panels, and become the first to sell them to the public within the next year.

Oxford PV claims that the next-generation solar panels will be able to generate almost a third more electricity than traditional silicon-based solar panels by coating the panels with a thin layer of a crystal material called perovskite.

The breakthrough would offer the first major step-change in solar power generation since the technology emerged in the 1950s, and could play a major role in helping to tackle the climate crisis by increasing clean energy.

By coating a traditional solar power cell with perovskite a solar panel can increase its power generation, and lower the overall costs of the clean electricity, because the crystal is able to absorb different parts of the solar spectrum than traditional silicon.

Typically a silicon solar cell is able to convert up to about 22% of the available solar energy into electricity. But in June 2018, Oxford PV’s perovskite-on-silicon solar cell surpassed the best performing silicon-only solar cell by reaching a new world record of 27.3%.
(snip)
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UK firm's solar power breakthrough could make world's most efficient panels by 2021 (Original Post) nitpicker Aug 2020 OP
Perovskite has been a Holy Grail Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #1
A bigger deal is that these lead laced perovskites will be killing people in 25 years. NNadir Aug 2020 #2
You miss the good climate news update Finishline42 Aug 2020 #4
World's coal has been falling since 2013, albeit not in a straight line. 2019 lower by 3.3% progree Aug 2020 #11
BTW, this says 0.8 gram per sq meter of perovskite PV Finishline42 Aug 2020 #5
Yep. I run into this type of claim all the time Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #8
Wow, "solar scam"? Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #6
He's a big nuclear fan Finishline42 Aug 2020 #9
The solution is in cheaper and denser "battery" tech Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #10
0.8 grams of lead "isn't much?" For whom? NNadir Aug 2020 #12
So, much misinformation Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #13
Really? Misinformation? "Fake news?" "Talking points" Your references for this claim are what? NNadir Aug 2020 #16
See, I have read a number of your prior posts on this topic and see a pattern Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #17
Post removed Post removed Aug 2020 #33
I never compared you to Trump Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #34
A link to your tables from the IEA WEO 2019 report and tables derived from it progree Aug 2020 #19
Right on cue... Finishline42 Aug 2020 #18
I have had constructive discussions Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #20
Lead from rotting solar panels has a half life of FOREVER. hunter Aug 2020 #27
*sigh* Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #29
Sigh. Bye. hunter Aug 2020 #31
Yes, bye indeed. Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #32
I wonder what the cost and life span is of this type of solar panel. I have a total of 30 panels, in2herbs Aug 2020 #3
The panels are warranted to 80% rated output for 25 years Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #7
Y'all really shouldn't beat each other up so much... k2qb3 Aug 2020 #14
I agree but while we are investing in long-term renewable energy why can't solar be an in2herbs Aug 2020 #15
I'm not sure how to respond. k2qb3 Aug 2020 #21
AOC and Markey have a green plan that, from what I've read, Biden is exploring. nt in2herbs Aug 2020 #24
My thought has been a program to expand solar for schools and govt Finishline42 Aug 2020 #28
Just for context, since I'm new to the group... k2qb3 Aug 2020 #30
Solar+battery works Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #23
That the secret -- stop allowing the govt to give subsidies to the fossil fuel industry. Use that in2herbs Aug 2020 #25
If subsides to FF were cut, Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #26
Not a proponent of bio-fuels Miguelito Loveless Aug 2020 #22

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
1. Perovskite has been a Holy Grail
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 01:51 PM
Aug 2020

material for over a decade now, and it looks like it is finally coming to market. Current PVs are 17%-20% efficient, with a top output of about 400w. A similar perovskite PV would clock in at 540w, a substantial improvement.

I have a large array (20kW) installed in sections over the last 5 years. If i replaced my existing PVs with perovskite at 27% efficiency, my power output would jump to 35.6kW (and my utility company would have kittens), producing enough energy to power about a quarter of my block.

This is a big deal.

NNadir

(33,512 posts)
2. A bigger deal is that these lead laced perovskites will be killing people in 25 years.
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 02:20 PM
Aug 2020

It's not like anyone hyping this shit gives a rat's ass about future generations though.

This is as remarkable as the development of tetraethyl lead laced gasoline that improved the performance of automobile fuels by working wonderfully to reduce engine knocking in the 1940's. It was a wonderful idea, no?

There probably isn't enough iodine and cesium to be had to make this things be any more significant as an energy source, than the last half a century of cheering for it, which is essentially not at all significant. The rate of carbon dioxide accumulation despite trillions spent on solar is increasing, not decreasing.

The solar scam isn't safe; and it isn't green. The sooner we wake up to that fact, the sooner we'll be able to do something reasonable to save what is left to be saved, which is less and less, owing to our predilection to lie to ourselves.

Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
4. You miss the good climate news update
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 03:53 PM
Aug 2020

Weekly update from Twitter

Good climate news of the week
1 World’s coal falls for 1st time
2 Bangladesh may close 26 or 29 planned coal plants
3 Canada’s oil-sands emissions intensity down
4 BP announces oil & gas will fall by 40%, while its #renewables will rise 20-fold
5 EU eyes higher renewable targets

Last week

1 Germany: Green power hits record 50.2% of consumption in first half of 2020
2 UK: Largest pension fund to divest from fossil fuels
3 UK: Offshore wind farms set to be the 1st in the world to pay money back to consumers
4 Deutsche Bank exits coal

From >>> @AssaadRazzouk

progree

(10,901 posts)
11. World's coal has been falling since 2013, albeit not in a straight line. 2019 lower by 3.3%
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 08:42 PM
Aug 2020

IEA: coal globally peaked in 2013, and has fallen since, albeit not in a straight line: there were small increases in 2017 and 2018
https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/world-coal-consumption-1978-2019

In Mtce (millions of tons of coal equivalent)

1980: 2524
2000: 3328
2013: 5591 - peak
2016: 5349 - down 242 from 2013
2017: 5399 - up 50 over previous year
2018: 5433 - up 34 over previous year
2019: 5407 - latest from this source - down 26 from previous year
Down 3.3% from 2013 but way far higher than 1980 and 2000

Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
5. BTW, this says 0.8 gram per sq meter of perovskite PV
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 03:58 PM
Aug 2020
However, lead is toxic and must not enter the food chain. On the other hand, very little lead is needed for a solar module: a square metre perovskite solar module contains only 0.8 grams of lead, which is very little compared to other technical sources of lead (e.g. in batteries).

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200121112945.htm#:~:text=However%2C%20lead%20is%20toxic%20and,lead%20(e.g.%20in%20batteries).

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
8. Yep. I run into this type of claim all the time
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 04:51 PM
Aug 2020

along with people telling me 5G causes cancer, and they get headaches/rashes because of WiFi.

Next up, EVs are made by child slaves in the DRC.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
6. Wow, "solar scam"?
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 04:46 PM
Aug 2020

I usually have to go to a Koch brothers astro-turf, pro-nuke or anti-green site to read this kind of propaganda.

"Laced with lead". I would hardly call 0.8g of lead per panel "laced" The lead is also encapsulated in the panel itself and is going nowhere unless the panel is physically damaged. A physically damaged panel would be replaced, and the damaged panel recycled.

But, by all means, lets not develop and deploy solar or wind (wind turbines slaughter birds by the billions, and cause cancer, or so I am told by Donald Trump).

Let's just keep burning coal, oil, and methane. I am sure the problem will solve itself, some how. In the mean time, must not damage the profits of the FF industries.

Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
9. He's a big nuclear fan
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 05:11 PM
Aug 2020

He's been on here for probably 20 years saying the same thing. That wind and solar are scams. Famous for throwing up a page of numbers to prove his point. Once claimed that we would run out of aluminum if we built enough windmills to matter (completely ignoring the billions of beer and pop cans made every year).

Also ignoring that Germany has attained 50% renewables. England has basically shut down their coal plants. Wind produces close to 20% of electricity for Texas, up from nothing 20 yrs ago.

The main aspect of wind and solar is that while they don't work all the time, when they do their power is the cheapest on the grid. And when they are producing there are coal, gas and nuclear plants that sit idle. When those plants are sitting idle, it increase the overhead to operate them, making them more expensive to operate. Which justifies the purchase of more wind and solar which just seems to get cheaper all the time. Now that's a feedback loop that is beneficial to the environment.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
10. The solution is in cheaper and denser "battery" tech
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 05:45 PM
Aug 2020

not just lithium-ion (whose density should improve 20%-50% in the next 5 years, while costs fall about 7% a year, but newer tech such as compressed air and gravity batteries.

It really irks me to see this nonsense, since we actually now have tech that works, and is getting cheaper as we ramp up production. We can solve this problem, though we may sadly be too late. We should have started building at this level in the 90s.

NNadir

(33,512 posts)
12. 0.8 grams of lead "isn't much?" For whom?
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 08:58 PM
Aug 2020

We have spent over two trillion dollars on solar and wind in the last ten years.

It is not doing anything to address coal, oil and methane. In fact, without coal, oil, and in particular gas, the solar industry would be even more useless than it is.

Do you know where electronic waste is "recycled." In the first world? Why do you think China, now a wealthy nation that made a fortune in "recycling" electronic waste banned it last year?

Because it's green.

There are tens of thousands of papers in the primary scientific literature on lead concentrations in Chinese children.

I type these words into Google Scholar: chinese children lead concentrations recycling

I get more than 35,000 hits in 0.12 seconds. I've been reading papers along these lines for many decades.

Here's the thing with people promoting so called "renewable energy" as lipstick on the gas, oil and coal pig. They are uniformly bourgeois, and uniformly oblivious to the consequences of their actions.

The solar industry, after 50 years of cheering, combined with wind, tidal, and geothermal on which we bet the future of the planet, produces less than 13 exajoules of energy on a planet where humanity is producing and consuming 600 exajoules per year.

We here the lie that "coal is dead," even though coal has been the fastest growing source of energy on the planet in the 21st century, albeit in countries we don't care about, the same countries we send our electronic waste to be "recycled."

Now.

Do you know what is an essential material for making steel for all the wind turbines that will be land fill in about 20 years? Um, coke. Do you know how they make coke? They heat coal. Do you know what provides the heat for coke production. Coal fires.

How about aluminum? Do you know what an aluminum green anode is? Do you know how it's made. I'll tell you. It's from petroleum coke, made from the refinery bottoms.

0.8 grams, eh? For a form of energy that is trivial, no less. Imagine, if you will, that we multiply that figure by a billion, for a billion solar cells, in the quixotic quest to make "green" so called distributed energy, for everyonem and add to it all the toxic shit in batteries. Will you follow your 0.8 grams to see where it goes?

Distributed no less, widely.

Here's why I oppose so called "renewable energy," and applaud the only sustainable form of nuclear energy. I open science books and scientific papers. I don't pat myself with self-satisfied obliviousness.

OK?

Thanks for letting me know how vibrantly aware you are. After listening to this shit for the last 30 or 40 years, I happened to notice that the concentration of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide hit over 416 ppm this year, and that the rate of increase is reached 2.4 ppm/year, the highest rate ever observed.

I'm paying attention. You?

The cause of climate change may involve denial on the right, but here on the left we are all too willing to lie to ourselves and repeat over and over and over and over and over that so called "renewable energy" will save the day. It hasn't saved the day; it isn't saving the day; and it won't save the day. The reason is physics, the low energy to mass ratio of renewable energy devices and their need for redundant environmentally unacceptable back up. There is a reason that humanity abandoned so called "renewable energy" early in the 19th century, and all the reactionary self delusion in the world won't change that reason.

The last best hope for humanity is nuclear energy. I'd willing to bet a lot of money you're against it.

Enjoy the weekend.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
13. So, much misinformation
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 09:12 PM
Aug 2020

lack of context, and propaganda, with just enough facts to make it plausible.

All to defend nuclear.

I thought the talking points were familiar.

NNadir

(33,512 posts)
16. Really? Misinformation? "Fake news?" "Talking points" Your references for this claim are what?
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 07:38 PM
Aug 2020

Why not go full Trump?

I hear this blabber all the time, but of course, I have something called, um, "facts" and references.

I keep them around handily whenever I hear the same bullshit - which I've been hearing for almost half a century, beginning with Amory Lovins in 1976. Of course, I was a stupid kid then, without any critical thinking skills, so I believed that horseshit.

I'm an old man, not some fucking child hearing for the first time how so called "renewable energy" would save the world.

As an old man, who has spent 30 years in the primary scientific literature reading on topics on energy of the environment, I hold in contempt hand waving at the expense of all future generations.

These are not "talking points." "Talking points" are for fucking lazy people with no real information, no data, but with an unsupportable agenda.

You know, someone who thinks, it's fine to put "only 0.8 grams" of lead on the roof of every person on the planet, because they claim, without fucking shred of information, with no understanding of the (often noxious) chemistry of element recovery, and no economic knowledge of how far dead solar cells will have to be trucked to recover "only 0.8 grams" of lead, these kinds of people, with no interest in the world, they do, um, "talking points."

I'll pull out the normal references with which I respond to people whose contempt for future generations makes them think oblivious with respect to what they are doing to the future:

The death toll from air pollution while we all wait, as expectant assholes, for the grand renewable energy nirvana that has not come, is not here and won't come:

Global, regional, and national comparative risk assessment of 79 behavioural, environmental and occupational, and metabolic risks or clusters of risks, 1990–2015: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2015 (Lancet 2016; 388: 1659–724) One can easily locate in this open sourced document compiled by an international consortium of medical and scientific professionals how many people die from causes related to air pollution, particulates, ozone, etc.

It works to between six to seven million people per year.

This means that in the last decade, while we wait for the grand so called "renewable energy" nirvana, more people have died from air pollution than died in World War II.

We have spent, in the last ten years alone, more than two trillion dollars on solar and wind energy, more than three trillion dollars in this century, this on a planet where 2 billion people lack access to basic sanitation:

The amount of money "invested" in so called "renewable energy" in the period between 2004 and 2018 is over 3.036 trillion dollars; dominated by solar and wind which soaked up 2.774 trillion dollars.
Source: UNEP/Bloomberg Global Investment in Renewable Energy, 2019

How much energy has this grand investment produced, and how does it compare to the growth of the use of dangerous coal, dangerous oil, and dangerous natural gas?

In this century, world energy demand grew by 179.15 exajoules to 599.34 exajoules.

In this century, world gas demand grew by 50.33 exajoules to 137.03 exajoules.

In this century, the use of petroleum grew by 34.79 exajoules to 188.45 exajoules.

In this century, the use of coal grew by 63.22 exajoules to 159.98 exajoules.

In this century, the solar, wind, geothermal, and tidal energy on which people so cheerfully have bet the entire planetary atmosphere, stealing the future from all future generations, grew by 9.76 exajoules to 12.27 exajoules.

12.27 exajoules is slightly over 2% of the world energy demand.

2019 Edition of the World Energy Outlook Table 1.1 Page 38] (I have converted MTOE in the original table to the SI unit exajoules in this text.)

And yet we hear from people who have obviously never looked in their lives at read data, and who supply no references that solar and wind are means of addressing the growth in the use of dangerous fossil fuels, and that anyone who looks at data, is engaging in "talking points."

When confronted with hand waving airheads who have no interest in the fate of humanity, I often point to this paper, co-authored by one of the world's most famous climate scientists, Jim Hansen, about how many lives nuclear energy saved, and how many billions of tons of carbon dioxide it prevented from accumulating in the atmosphere, by his calculation (in 2013) about 31 billion tons:

Prevented Mortality and Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Historical and Projected Nuclear Power (Pushker A. Kharecha* and James E. Hansen Environ. Sci. Technol., 2013, 47 (9), pp 4889–4895)

Maybe there are people with solar cells on the roofs of their McMansions who "know more than the scientists" about climate change, and can confidently say that this paper, published in one of the most prestigious Environmental scientific journals in the world is "propganda."

Of course, I feel differently about what propaganda might be. To me, "propaganda" usually consists of slinging nonsense invectives by people who have no information at those who do, say like, um, "much misinformation, lack of context, and propaganda, with just enough facts to make it plausible."

As for context, the data on the accumulation of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide speaks volumes. I've analyzed it extensively, for several decades. But any asshole interested in humanity could do the same, if they gave a shit, which clearly they don't.

The data pages of the Mauna Loa Carbon Dioxide Web Pages, with data going back as far as the 1950's are here: Data: The complete Mauna Loa CO2 records described on this page are available.

We hit 417.43 ppm of CO2 in the planetary atmosphere this spring, in the week beginning May 24, 2020.

In the 20th century the average rate of increase in the dangerous fossil fuel waste was as follows:

1961-1970: 0.898 ppm/year on average.
1971-1980: 1.339 ppm/year on average.
1981-1990: 1.554 ppm/year on average.
1991-2000: 1.541 ppm/year on average.

In the age of the rise of "renewable energy will save us" beginning with Germany:

2001-2010: 2.038 ppm/year on average.
2011-2018: 2.418 ppm/year on average.

The 20th century average annual increase overall: 1.31 ppm/year
The 21st century average annual increase overall: 2.12 ppm/year

The last 5 years annual average increase: 2.55 ppm/year

Are we tired of so much winning yet? Do we care a shred for the planet we are leaving behind for our children, our grandchildren and their great grandchildren?

Well, I think the data speaks for itself, even this superficial evocation of it. Of course, if one isn't lazy, one can dig really, really, really, really deep into data, the chemistry of silicon refining, lanthanide mining, child slaves digging cobalt in the Congo for lithium batteries for "green" energy storage, the use and source of methylethylketone electrolytes in those batteries, leaching from lead mines, well, it goes on and on and on and on, but one would have to give a shit to look.

Propaganda?

There are two kinds of Trumpers in my view:

One of course consists of those who believe and support his lies, for the most part poorly educated racists. Everyone who writes here is well aware of these types.

The second, somewhat more subtle sort are those who "reason" like Trump, who believe that if they simply make stuff up and repeat it over and over and over in contradiction of the facts, it should be believed.

Anyone, I do mean anyone, who embraces the obvious lie that so called "renewable energy" is doing a damn thing about climate change or about the growth in the use of dangerous fossil fuels is engaged in Trumpism of the second kind.

Facts matter. They are clear, and they are unambiguous. Little bourgeois brats crowing about the solar cells on their roofs don't cut it if the issue under discussion is the most critical of our times, climate change.

I trust you had a very pleasant lazy weekend contemplating the solar cells on your roof by the barbecue. I had more serious things to do.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
17. See, I have read a number of your prior posts on this topic and see a pattern
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 08:50 PM
Aug 2020

You Gish gallop out a torrent of words containing misinformation, poor logic, facts out of context, with just enough truth thrown in to try and bury your opponent so that they have to practically write a master’s thesis to rebut your argument. You then disregard the rebuttal, or Gish gallop all over it while never ceding a single point, no matter how obviously wrong.

Rinse and repeat.

So, good evening.

Response to Miguelito Loveless (Reply #17)

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
34. I never compared you to Trump
Tue Aug 18, 2020, 02:00 PM
Aug 2020

However you are fine making the comparison of me, even putting words in my mouth to so justify.

Either one engages is substantive fact-based discussion, or one simply hurls insults, as you have done in this post.

progree

(10,901 posts)
19. A link to your tables from the IEA WEO 2019 report and tables derived from it
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 10:26 PM
Aug 2020

Last edited Sun Aug 16, 2020, 11:30 PM - Edit history (1)

In this century, the solar, wind, geothermal, and tidal energy on which people so cheerfully have bet the entire planetary atmosphere, stealing the future from all future generations, grew by 9.76 exajoules to 12.27 exajoules.

12.27 exajoules is slightly over 2% of the world energy demand.

2019 Edition of the World Energy Outlook Table 1.1 Page 38] (I have converted MTOE in the original table to the SI unit exajoules in this text.)

I don't think most readers have access to Table 1.1, maybe you meant to link to your excellent tables,

here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/122866874

and particularly here for the summary table where the "other renewables" line matches the numbers in the excerpt above: https://www.democraticunderground.com/122866874#post1

which I also swiped and pasted below:



(To enlarge: in Chrome, for example, right click on the table and choose "open image in new" tab or window. Click on that tab or window. Then hit F11 for full screen)

Edited to add:
Anyway, I hope you don't mind me adding this link and "exposing" your table.

I draw readers' attention to the last row: Fossil Fuel Percentage, where even in 2040 in the "Sustainable Development" scenario, it's 61.0% of the total. (But I'm getting 43.5% -- still terrible).

Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
18. Right on cue...
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 09:08 PM
Aug 2020

Stats to counter his waterfall of numbers.

US installed Wind capacity
2000 - 2539 MW
2005 - 9147 MW
2010 - 40,267 MW
2015 - 74,471 MW
2020 - 107,319 MW

Top 5 States according to percentage of generation by wind in 2019

Iowa - 41.7%
Kansas - 36.4%
Oklahoma - 31.7%
N Dakota - 25.8%
S Dakota - 24.4%

We haven't even started with off shore wind.

RE: CO2 at Manua Loa: Where would we be without the growth in renewables? Those numbers haven't dropped significantly during the pandemic.

The last 2 nuclear plants built in the US were finished in June of 2016 and May of 1996.

South Carolina stopped construction on 2 reactors less than 50% finished. The US certainly isn't building nuclear.

Europe is close to 20% of energy generated by renewables and is adding to that every year.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
20. I have had constructive discussions
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 11:33 PM
Aug 2020

about nuclear power with actual nuclear engineers. They brought up the safety records, new tech, etc. all of which is basically true, but it all comes back to how to safely store waste for 35-40 times as long as human civilization has existed. Not a problem that will be solved any time soon.

Meanwhile, solar and wind get better, cheaper, and safer.

hunter

(38,310 posts)
27. Lead from rotting solar panels has a half life of FOREVER.
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 10:19 AM
Aug 2020

Wind turbines littering the landscape do not give me the warm fuzzies.

A hybrid natural gas / wind-solar power system will destroy the natural environment the same as coal. It's a "light" cigarette.

The only way to quit smoking is to quit smoking. The only way to quit fossil fuels is to quit fossil fuels and then let the pieces fall where they may.

Without fossil fuel "backup" most solar and wind schemes cannot support themselves. These wind and solar schemes are most successful where natural gas and/or hydroelectricity is cheap. In many places the capacity of hydroelectric schemes to support wind and solar has reached its limit.

I think many people who now enjoy the bounties of an industrial economy would embrace nuclear power rather than give up their consumer lifestyle. A nuclear powered economy does not need wind and solar power, which may be the reason many people oppose it, not some nebulous and misinformed fear of "nuclear waste." Many by-products of our industrial society are as bad, or even worse, than nuclear waste. Greenhouse gasses are one. We all seem to breathe toxic automobile tire and brake pad dust or diesel particulates without much complaint and these cannot be contained. Nuclear waste has a small volume and can be contained.

Solar and wind power enthusiasm is just another form of climate change denial, especially when it is practiced by affluent consumers.

The problem isn't really energy, it's this thing we call "economic productivity" which is actually a measure of the damage we are doing the the natural environment and our own human spirit.

I think we ought to be paying people to experiment with lifestyles having a very small environmental footprint. We would measure the success of these experiments in terms of happiness, not "productivity" as we now define it.

Owning a car, for example, is not a source of happiness or "freedom" for many people. They own a car to get to work. If that car fails and they can't afford to replace it, they can't work and then their suffering increases. In any case the environmental impact of every adult in the world owning a car, even a fancy electric car, would be catastrophic.

People with first world incomes almost universally have huge environmental footprints. Odds are the guy with solar panels on his roof and a Tesla in the driveway isn't making the world a better place. His environmental footprint may be a few hundred times larger than that of someone who doesn't own a car, walks to work, and has never flown anywhere.

When everyone has clean water coming out of a faucet in their own home, a flush toilet connected to a modern sewage plant, easy access to birth control without harassment by idiot religious zealots, etc..., maybe we can turn our attention to the problems of first world consumers and their toys.

Maybe the expensive toys and habits of first world consumers are the problem.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
29. *sigh*
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 01:32 PM
Aug 2020
A hybrid natural gas / wind-solar power system will destroy the natural environment the same as coal. It's a "light" cigarette.

I do not advocate for Methane/Wind-Solar systems. I advocate solar/wind with battery tech, such as Li-ion, gravity and compressed air.

The only way to quit smoking is to quit smoking. The only way to quit fossil fuels is to quit fossil fuels and then let the pieces fall where they may.

Not going to happen. Modern civilization cannot simply turn off x% of its power generations system. I know, I know, global warming is an existential threat, but this solution of "letting the chips fall where they may" moves the the collapse of civilization from the future to NOW.

These wind and solar schemes are most successful where natural gas and/or hydroelectricity is cheap. In many places the capacity of hydroelectric schemes to support wind and solar has reached its limit.

Source, please? Because my experience is the complete opposite. Solar and wind are concentrated in areas where electricity is expensive. The avg electricity price in the EU is about twice the U.S., and they are switching over gangbusters. Coal plants are being shuts down for weeks in the UK, not exactly a bastion of sunlight, but with a huge amount of wind resources. Yes, there are some problems in areas where solar has grown rapidly, but the solution to the problem is upgrading infrastructure, and again, battery plants stepping in to replace peaker plants. This has been demonstrated with the wildly successful Hornsdale battery plant in Australia. As the tech is improved, the price comes down. PG&E is now looking at battery plants instead of peaker plants because they can be built faster (12-24 months) and require WAY less maintenance.

I think many people who now enjoy the bounties of an industrial economy would embrace nuclear power rather than give up their consumer lifestyle. A nuclear powered economy does not need wind and solar power, which may be the reason many people oppose it, not some nebulous and misinformed fear of "nuclear waste."

What?

I am onboard that nuclear power is WAY safer than traditional fossil power, but that ship has sailed, no matter how much we may dislike it.

1) The plants take too long to build, and invariably fall behind schedule, years behind.

2) Nuclear plants go over budget. Sometimes double, or tripling in price.

3) You can't just handwave away the waste issue. The problems are not "nebulous". Until someone comes up with a safe way to store the waste for tens of thousands of years, it is a non-starter.

4) Nuclear cannot exist without subsidies. The only reason they can operate "profitably" at all is because the tax payer is on the hook for accidents and waste storage.

I oppose shutting down existing nukes unless they are an imminent danger, because I don't want to see them immediately replaced with FF plants. That said, they cannot be built fast enough, and cost WAY too much to build to be helpful in our current situation.

Solar and wind power enthusiasm is just another form of climate change denial, especially when it is practiced by affluent consumers.

Well, as prices come down (and they have dropped 75% in the last decade), they are rapidly heading toward a price point everyone will be able to afford. Solar/wind/hydro are also the only power generation sources where the fuel comes to you. No exploration, drilling, pipelines, tankers, refining needed.

Calling solar/wind "climate denial" is just wrong.

In any case the environmental impact of every adult in the world owning a car, even a fancy electric car, would be catastrophic.

I am unaware of anyone advocating for "every adult" owning an EV. The preferred methods of travel are: walking, biking, public transit, EVs, PHEVs, hybrids and efficient ICE. However, few parts of the US are designed for these solutions. Our populations are too spread out into suburban sprawl.

There is NO magic, instant solution to the problems we face, only choices where some are better and some are worse. Our only hope of progress is better choices. If you need a car to get to work, and you can charge at home or work, then your choice is between a gas burning car, or perhaps a used Nissan Leaf. The Leaf has plenty of range for 85% of commuters, is cheaper to run, and has fewer maintenance costs. Also, a used model can be had for under $12K in a lot of areas. If you need range, them maybe you look at a Chevy Volt, which is a PHEV, with 38-53 miles of electric range, and then has an onboard gasoline generator for when you need to make long trips (total range is 300-400 miles). We've drove one for years, and our gasoline usage went to around 40 gallons a year, total, down from 600+.

New EVs have, in 10+ years fallen from a high of $120K+, to a low of just under $30K. They should fall under $25K within the next three years. I notice you throw out the term "fancy electric car", insinuating that they are luxurious, and things only the super-rich can afford. And in some cases, you are correct. However, this is true of every major consumer good over the last century, from gasoline cars, to refrigerators, radios, TVs, color TVs, washers, dryers, computers, cell phones, and now EVs. Adjusted for inflation, an IBM PC back in the day cost about $15K in today's money, yet people now routinely carry around computers in their pocket that only cost a few hundred dollars, and are 3x+ order of magnitude more powerful.

The affluent are the first adopters of new, expensive tech, then it gets cheaper, better, and ubiquitous. EVs are looking at price parity with ICE cars within 5 years, and those cars will be cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain, last longer, and will be safer.

People with first world incomes almost universally have huge environmental footprints. Odds are the guy with solar panels on his roof and a Tesla in the driveway isn't making the world a better place. His environmental footprint may be a few hundred times larger than that of someone who doesn't own a car, walks to work, and has never flown anywhere.

Sorry, but I track my footprint, and long term it will be less than if I had stayed the course. My wife and I made a decision years ago that we would transition off fossil fuels, go solar, and drive electric. Counting just electric generation, we kept 60K kgs of CO2 out of the air, when we throw in unburned gasoline we didn't produce 29K kg of CO2. There's also a LOT of PM2.5 pollution that didn't go into the air for people to breath.

Oh, and we also did other things, improved insulation, smart thermostat, LED bulbs, hybrid-electric water heater when our old one died, etc. Yes, we do use more electricity than the average house, but we don't burn gasoline. We also produce surplus power, which goes back on the grid and powers our neighbor's houses.

So, I must disagree based on practical, real-world experience.

When everyone has clean water coming out of a faucet in their own home, a flush toilet connected to a modern sewage plant, easy access to birth control without harassment by idiot religious zealots, etc..., maybe we can turn our attention to the problems of first world consumers and their toys.

Maybe the expensive toys and habits of first world consumers are the problem.


On this I totally agree, but would point out that as the major polluters, we need to clean up our act, while we also must help other countries with water, sewage, BC, etc. However, clean water and sewage require power, and if we are going to help provide that power, it needs to be CLEANER power than what the usual suspects wish to provide. A decentralized power structure is easier to build in the absence of good roads, and huge pipelines to provide fuel for the power generation. The sun and wind are free, and work on site.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
32. Yes, bye indeed.
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 04:12 PM
Aug 2020

I have reviewed your arguments in another thread, and it would be a waste of out mutual time.

in2herbs

(2,945 posts)
3. I wonder what the cost and life span is of this type of solar panel. I have a total of 30 panels,
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 02:35 PM
Aug 2020

six panels attached to 5 rotating stanchions. Because of damage to one of the panels on one of the stanchions I had to replace one panel last year at a cost of $491.28. They don't need replacing but when they do I am looking at $14,738.40 to replace all of the panels with the same type of panels or how much $$ to replace with perovskite panels?

I was not concerned about the "break even" point when I had solar installed as it was obvious I would not reach that point in my lifetime. The decision was made for the environment.

IMO we should get the trillions back that trump gave to the 1% in tax breaks and use that money to install solar on every residence for free. We'd still need power that power companies generate but not as much. It's an environmentally-friendly way to break the power generating corporations.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
7. The panels are warranted to 80% rated output for 25 years
Sat Aug 15, 2020, 04:49 PM
Aug 2020

Last edited Sat Aug 15, 2020, 05:45 PM - Edit history (1)

But we have seen panels from the early 80s still putting out 95% of their rated power or higher. The consensus from solar engineers is that the panels can continue to put out power for 30+ years, but you would probably have to replace the inverter at least once.

 

k2qb3

(374 posts)
14. Y'all really shouldn't beat each other up so much...
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 01:42 AM
Aug 2020

The damage is done.

In truth, nuclear was never going to save industrial civilization. Intermittent renewables aren't going to either. Efficiency increases consumption. Biofuels are almost always worse than just burning natural gas and in hardship people are going to continue to sacrifice the future to survive the present regardless.

We could have done much better than we did. We still can. All these technologies could be useful in appropriate situations.

So long as they're being used to try to save the thing that's killing us they're all dead ends. People are generally nowhere near comprehending how late in the game we are or how much would actually have to change to have a real impact, let alone actually making the sacrifices personally.

in2herbs

(2,945 posts)
15. I agree but while we are investing in long-term renewable energy why can't solar be an
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 03:08 PM
Aug 2020

in between situation? Even w/o a back up to solar in the event the power company goes down if a greater portion of the population used solar during the day the stress on power companies need to produce/generate electricity would be reduced, along with their environmental impact.

 

k2qb3

(374 posts)
21. I'm not sure how to respond.
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 11:36 PM
Aug 2020

I do think solar is a net positive, even if it isn't as big of one as people think because of the manufacturing cost and the fossil fuel supplementation intermittent sources require. I expect they'll get better going forward.

Like I said, all of these technologies are useful, but I don't think any of them are going to allow us to sustain the energy-intensive lifestyles people want.

I'm not sure what long term renewable energy you mean.



Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
28. My thought has been a program to expand solar for schools and govt
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 10:30 AM
Aug 2020

Solar is a long term investment and what better match than schools and govt?

Using PPA's avoids capital expenditures but what it also does is help create the local expertise in installation and drives the cost curve down.

One thing not talked about much is all the jobs solar and wind create.

 

k2qb3

(374 posts)
30. Just for context, since I'm new to the group...
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 03:01 PM
Aug 2020

The policy change I'm most in favor of is a heavy carbon fee and dividend.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
23. Solar+battery works
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 11:47 PM
Aug 2020

As do EVs. I know because My wife and I have been transitioning to it over the last six years. We now produce enough power to run our home and fuels our cars so that we have not bought a kWh of electricity, or burned a single drop of gasoline, in over two years. When our furnace dies, it will be replaced with a ground source heat pump, ending our use of methane.

No, its not cheap. But, it is way cheaper than when we started looking at it ten years ago, and keeps getting cheaper as more people convert.

But, until people start taking this seriously, and governments stop subsidizing fossil fuels, we are rather screwed.

in2herbs

(2,945 posts)
25. That the secret -- stop allowing the govt to give subsidies to the fossil fuel industry. Use that
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 08:40 AM
Aug 2020

$$ to spur green investment.

Miguelito Loveless

(4,460 posts)
22. Not a proponent of bio-fuels
Sun Aug 16, 2020, 11:38 PM
Aug 2020

once I learned about them. The intermittency problem for wind/solar is solvable, but expensive at the moment. But, the solution get cheaper each year.

As to being way too late in the game, sadly, this is very true. The people I talk to are clueless.

All we can do now is mitigate, and hopefully avoid extinction.

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