More bad news about electric drive autos...

[kristopher]

Toyota unveils 'first all-electric SUV'
Posted: 08 May 2012

LOS ANGELES: Toyota unveiled Monday what it says is the first all-electric sports utility vehicle (SUV) on the market, a version of its popular RAV4 with a top range of 100 miles and minimum six-hour charge time.

The car will be sold initially only in California with a base price of $49,800, and the Japanese car company hopes to sell a relatively modest 2,600 units over the next three years.

Toyota Motor Sales USA executive Bob Carter said the company believes the car will "attract sophisticated early technology adopters, much like the first-generation Prius," Toyota's pioneering hybrid car launched 15 years ago...

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/1199870/1/.html


In case you're wondering the thread header is a jab at those who, with breathless glee, rush to broadcast any news that they think creates the impression of a failure for electric drive.


See also what Edison thought about the way we should do energy. He said he would "bet" on the sun in the long term. He just hoped we'd figure it out before the fossil fuels ran out.

Thomas Edison holding one of the batteries used to power his early electric car, the Baker.

... Edison, godfather of electricity-intensive living, was also an unlikely green pioneer whose ideas about renewable power still resonate today. At the turn of the 20th century, when Edison was at the height of his career, the notion that buildings, which now account for more than a third of all energy consumed in the United States, would someday require large amounts of power was only just coming into focus. Where that power would come from — central generating stations or in-home plants; fossil fuels or renewable resources — was still very much up for debate.

A 1901 article about Edison in The Atlanta Constitution described how his unorthodox ideas about batteries could bring wattage to the countryside: “With a windmill coupled to a small electric generator,” a rural inhabitant “could bottle up enough current to give him light at night.” The earliest wind-powered house was fired up in Cleveland in 1888 by the inventor Charles Brush, but Edison aspired to take the technology to the masses. He made drawings of a windmill to power a cluster of four to six homes, and in 1911 he pitched manufacturers on building a prototype.

Edison’s batteries also fueled some cars and trucks, and he joined forces with Henry Ford to develop an electric automobile that would be as affordable and practical as the Model T. The Constitution article discussed plans to let people recharge their batteries at plug-in sites along trolley lines; the batteries could also be refreshed courtesy of the home windmill.

Talented not only at devising new technologies...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/magazine/03wwln-essay-t.html

[leveymg]

1. Ah, but pursuing that path would have made the Rockefellers mere millionaires

and internal combustion engines relegated to specialized applications, such as trips away from rail lines of longer than 30-50 miles.

It would likely be a very different world if in the 1910s the world had embarked on creating a wind and photoelectric power transmission and electric transportation grid.



Or, maybe it wouldn't?

[kristopher]

6. Absolutely it would be a far different world.

I can't see how they could have ever put the fossil djinni back in the bottle though. Our fascination with fire is far too primal.

[leveymg]

14. It would likely be a cleaner, safer, saner, cooler world. The 21st Century office hasn't

really evolved much past the conception of 100 years ago, that includes a videophone and a fax machine all-in-one printer.

The future is pretty cool in some ways, though. Check this out (holodeck here we come):

http://vimeo.com/31479392

http://gajitz.com/hyper-reality-hungarian-shopping-mall-invaded-by-dinos/

[madokie]

24. My dad was born in February of 1897

so he grew up with the growth of the ICE auto and he would tell us the stories of how when one came down the wagon trails popping, backfiring, smoking and belching fire how the farm animals would run for their lives. The animals would hear the vehicles long before the humans would and it would startle the people in the vicinity when they did that. He said it took a long time for the animals and a lot of the people too to get used to the internal combustion engine powered vehicles.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

41. That's Nikola Tesla in the photo..TRUE HERO!

Last edited Tue May 8, 2012, 07:34 PM - Edit history (2)

People WILL be using wireless electric Tesla technology...Some day..
A Great Genius, and Wonderful, Wonderful Human Being!

&feature=related

Nikola Tesla (supposedly) had an Electric Pierce Arrow back in 1930
"The ICE engine was replaced with an Electric Motor. The power source was a black box of radio tubes, in the glove compartment. The box had an antenna sticking out. Tesla would fool with some tuners and tune in the right frequency and got 240 volts delivered through the air to his car. The car ran almost silent. He had the car stashed in a barn near Niagara Falls. He was sending the energy from the Power Plant, Some how..." more at "Nikola Tesla Society"
Nikola Tesla's Electric Car:
http://energybytesla.org/electric-car/nikola-teslas-free-energy-car

[DianaForRussFeingold]

52. So True!!! Great Post! 1967 Sky Bus

Your post inspired me... to look for video of (what could have been..)

What, we passed up--other countries took advantage!

&feature=related IF Only!

[mactime]

2. I'm actually looking to by a small SUV/crossover vehicle

but the price is 25k over what I can spend. Hopefully in a few years the electric drive vehicles will become more affordable

[Atypical Liberal]

3. I'd say that *is* bad news.

$50,000 for an armored golf car.

Very few people can justify such an expensive thing just for commuting.

I'm all for the selling of such vehicles of so limited capability. But I would never pay more than $10K for one.

[KurtNYC]

4. 111 years and counting

Edison did not invent the light bulb -- only the threaded base -- but he gets credit for that and many other "inventions" because Edison leveraged patent laws and marketing to the extreme.

Like many of the inventions depicted in the fanciful and inspiring drawings of Leonardo DaVinci, the "emissionless" electric car remains a fantastic dream 111 years after Edison hyped it.

Nothing green about the production and disposal of the millions of large batteries that would go into vehicles and last 7 years before needing a permanent landfill home. Nothing green about the inefficiencies of generating grid-based electricity and then wasting much of it charging batteries. Nothing green about planning a future that is still based on commuting in personal vehicles weighing 2000+ pounds each and replacing them every 7 years.

When they market an ultra-light solar powered electric vehicle I may be interested but the electric car has been a tail-pipe dream for 111 years and the wait ain't over yet.

[kristopher]

5. You really need to stop reading those right wing websites.

You sound exactly like Rush Limpballs.

ETA: BTW, it goes without saying but I'll say it anyway - everything you said about EVs is factually incorrect.
Everything.
100% false.

[KurtNYC]

9. Eco-friendly SUVs are the stuff of Corporate PR campaigns

Fact: EV weigh 2000+ pounds
The curb weight of the Chevy Volt is 3781 pounds, Prius 3042 pounds, Toyota RAV4 3,360 pounds (source: Toyota)

Fact: Electric vehicles use electricity produced by the grid. The US grid generates power from the following sources:
Coal 45%
Nuclear 21%
Nat Gas 23%
(source: US DOE)

A coal and nuclear powered SUV? I'll pass.

[tinrobot]

12. That's an indictment of power companies, not vehicle companies.

Electric cars are as clean as the electricity you feed them. As our power grid gets cleaner, so does electric transportation.

You seem to be upset at how we generate electricity, not how we consume it.

[KurtNYC]

35. "upset at how we generate electricity, not how we consume it." --> we could improve both

Not upset, and another poster did not believe that ANY ("100%&quot of what I cited about EVs was true so I cite stats and sources.

The grid is powered by coal and nukes. If you add heavy SUVs to the grid you are using more coal and nuke. That is reality today.

[kristopher]

16. What right wing website did you get that from?

[KurtNYC]

36. well the first one, curb weights, is from Toyota - same place you got your press release from

and the 2nd one is from the DOE as it says next to the word "Source&quot . Most people who study energy and ecology are familiar with the acronym DOE.

[longship]

19. What are talking about here?

I stand with kristopher! A totally electrical vehicle is the most efficient vehicle for moving people on the road (possibly next to an AmTrak locomotive).

For a plug-in hybrid, the cheapest miles per gallon are by far the battery charge off the electrical grid, regardless how the electricity is generated. Of course, we hope it would all be solar, wind, tide, geothermal, etc. Yes, coal sucks. But natural gas is fairly clean and the US seems to have a lot of it, without fracking. If we convert coal to nat gas and move to non carbon emitting sources as we can, there is no reason why the efficiencies of electric vehicles could be achieved.

Your post seems to assume that things will remain static.

As I wrote in another post here, the main problems with EVs is the batteries. Hopefully some bright people will come up with a technology which is inexpensive to mass produce and which gives sufficient charge capacity to be practical. Fast charging would be nice, too.

In the meantime, these new electric vehicles are precisely what the auto mfgers should be doing. Yes, the market is small, and yes, they are expensive, but what would you have Detroit, Tokyo, and Souel do? Keep producing gas guzzling SVU's?

Frankly, I hope they make a fortune on their EVs.

[tinrobot]

11. Dumping tailpipe emissions into the air is better?

The Leaf and Volt both have 8 year warranties on the batteries, and lithium batteries can be completely recycled. None of it is going to wind up in a landfill.

The emissions from the gasoline burned in cars, however, winds up in the air that we all breathe.

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather recycle an expensive battery every decade than breathe 10 years worth of tailpipe emissions.

[KurtNYC]

37. you have to charge the battery 6 hours for every 2-3 hours of use

It's the grid-generated electricity PLUS the manufacture and disposal of batteries

The average of a car on the road is 7 years old partly due to engineered obsolescence and partly to vehicle crashes and other damage.

On Li-on batteries:

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) does not regulate the disposal of batteries in small quantities; large quantities are regulated under the Universal rules of Hazardous Waste regulations (40 CFR PART 273). Lithium batteries are not currently being collected by manufacturers for recycling. Lithium batteries are currently disposed of after their use.
...
Incineration must be performed by an approved and permitted waste treatment facility that handles lithium ion batteries. If you are not sure if your waste facility can handle lithium ion batteries, contact them and verify if they are permitted or not.

Source (BiPowerUSA, a manufacturer of batteries): http://www.bipowerusa.com/documents/disposal.asp

[tinrobot]

42. Your quote is not about vehicle batteries.

All car manufacturers have recycling programs in place for their batteries. Perhaps you're quoting a laptop or cellphone battery manufacturer.

And yes, it does take time to charge, which is only an issue if drive more than the range of the car in a day. Most people rarely exceed this range, so they charge overnight.

And regardless of how fast you fill them up, gas vehicles still dump toxic chemicals into the atmosphere...

[leveymg]

17. Your future already exists: Aerorider trike, rider/battery power, $6K, 30 mph,

30 mile range on battery. Very cool looking. Built in the Netherlands. I think it's exactly what you're asking for.

http://peakoilgarage.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/new-electric-toy-the-aerorider/

Here's a user's blog by someone who's owned one for several years: http://www.aerorider.blogspot.com/ Seems like an honest account, and that the author's gotten good value out of his l'il white electric Velo.

[KurtNYC]

38. very cool

wish I spoke Dutch. Will check out the blog.

I think this is a much better execution if you really want eco-friendly and forward thinking in vehicles.

At the very least we should do an electric motorcycle before an SUV. Get the vehicle weight down if you want efficiency and speed. And if possible integrate with a recharging power source that isn't coal and nuke based.

[Nihil]

45. There seem to be some around ...

> At the very least we should do an electric motorcycle before an SUV.

There used to be a DUer with an electric bike but I can't recall his name.

On the other hand, ...

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

http://www.brammo.com/home/

HTH!

[DCKit]

27. You lost all credibility claiming that batteries would be landfilled.

Especially non-lead/acid batteries. The components are simply too valuable.

In case you haven't noticed, we recycle a lot of things in these modern times.

[KurtNYC]

39. Landfill would be better than incinerating them

which is what happens now

http://www.bipowerusa.com/documents/disposal.asp

Here's a challenge for YOUR credibility: Link me to a firm that recycles Li-on batteries. Just one firm that is doing it right now.

[NickB79]

40. You can bring non-functioning NiMH Prius batteries to the dealer for a $200 payout

http://www.ehow.com/how_7405594_recycle-prius-batteries.html

Your link, on the other hand, seems to be discussing small, AA-size lithium batteries that typically end up in trashcans rather than large-scale auto batteries.

And to answer your more specific question, Umicore recycles lithium-ion battery packs: http://www.batteryrecycling.umicore.com/UBR/

Umicore is one of the market leaders in advanced products for rechargeable batteries, derived from Nickel and Cobalt in particular. It is for instance competing for the first position in cathode materials for the Li-ion technology with its LiCoO2 and mixed metals products. In this particular field and to enhance its green credentials, Umicore decided some years ago to develop a process for the recycling of NiMH or Li-ion batteries and by thus closing the loop of these materials.

The Umicore process enables an Environmentally Sound battery recycling of used Li-ion, Li-polymer and NiMH batteries, without any potentially hazardous pre-treatment, and returns the main Nickel and Cobalt metals into the form of new advanced materials for new battery applications. Less than one year after commercialization, the Umicore process won the Gold Award of the European Environmental Press, from a jury composed of industrial and technical specialists in Environment and Eco-efficiency. They have concluded that the Umicore process is today, the Best Available Technology for the recycling of portable and/or industrial batteries.

[valerief]

7. The oil and gas barons and their agents, the politicians, won't let us have electric vehicles until

climate change has sufficiently put us into a permanent drought. It's then the barons can stop extorting us for oil and gas and will extort us for food and water.

[kristopher]

13. They can't stop it.

Demand is pushing up the price of fossil fuels and they can't control it. China, the US and Germany are all building manufacturing for batteries and working on bringing new improved technologies (that we already have) to market. That is the key to bringing costs down and actually moving us largescale to EVs.

The auomakers are going to have compete on EVs because of rising FF prices so they are now on board with the transition (some more than others). But there are other factors too that increase the pool of powerful interest groups that want to see us move to an electric system, such as the utilities. Not only does the market for electricity attract the conservative business segment, but the value of battery electric vehicles to improved performance of the grid attracts both the utilities' hard nosed business people and its smaller, forward thinking sector that wants to see a move to renewables.

We are past the tipping point on EVs IMO.

[tinrobot]

8. 2600 vehicles over 3 years is only a token

Looks like Toyota is making these simply to fulfill California's zero emission vehicle law.

Taking the slow route means Toyota is going to fall way behind Nissan, Tesla, and GM. I'm starting to see a lot of Leafs and Volts in my town. These cars are definitely the future, and as gas prices continue to rise, they make more and more economic sense.

[kristopher]

18. They have a lot invested in the Prius technology

That parallel hybrid approach was very good for it's time but now they need to move on. I see this RAV as a very positive step for their thinking and acceptance of the inevitable need to go where the competition is leading.

[longship]

10. It is ALL about battery technology

The big problem is that advances in battery technology are incremental, not revolutionary. This is just the way things work in science sometimes and as far as batteries are concerned, things are not likely to change. The only major recent advances involve nano technologies. Unfortunately, those have not advanced sufficiently to make them economical. I. E., What use is a battery that provides 250 miles on a charge if it costs thousands of dollars and can only be recharged 100 times?

That is a real problem for electric cars. The batteries. Right now, it's Li-Ion. We need something better and less expensive.

Only then will electric card have a real chance. That's too damned bad.

[kristopher]

15. Yes, it is about battery technology, but we aren't where you think we are.

The batteries right now are limited by cost more than capacity. Improvements in capacity act less to increase gross possible range than it does to make that range possible with less weight.

Lithium batteries WERE the revolutionary advance in batteries. What we are doing now is refining and improving them. There are a whole array of different chemistries (several with nanotech) that deliver acceptable performance for a very large segment of the auto market. The key now is bringing those chemistries to market (designing the production processes) and building enough of the factories to bring the per unit price down, which is what we are in the process of doing.

What do you think the limitations are of the batteries currently in the Leaf and Volt?

[longship]

23. You are exactly correct

The prospective issues with the nano approaches are that they increase capacity, but they may be more fragile than current tech. Yes, they look very promising, but if the nano structures degrade with recharging, they may not be so useful, or economical.

There are always trade-offs with these advancements. One just hopes that a bright team of people will be able to make a lightweight rechargeable with 300 mile capacity, that can be recharged relatively quickly, and is inexpensive to reproduce.

I am with you here, kristopher. The current battery tech is barely adequate, however. I live in a very rural area. Even if I could afford an EV, I couldn't rely on it to get back and forth to the nearest town. Forget about getting to and from the nearest city.

Actually, I'd like to have a plug-in Prius.

Thanks for your OP.

[tinrobot]

25. Batteries are not the problem. Infrastructue and expectations are.

Yes, batteries can get better, and that would be great, but batteries are already good enough.

I'm finding that the 100 mile range on my electric car is adequate for over 95% of my driving. A car with a 150+ mile range would serve over 99% of my needs. I doubt I would ever need more than 200 miles on a charge.

Driving an EV has completely adjusted my expectations. I think once people get the "hang" of EV driving, they'll find that to be the case as well.

Infrastructure is the other big factor. When fast chargers become common, then battery capacity/range becomes even less of an issue.

[longship]

31. Well, you are kinda correct, but not really

It is really nice that you are wealthy enough to afford to buy an EV. Not very many people have those resources. Also, you have to factor in the cost of replacing an EV's battery. One would hope that prices would drop by the time capacity drops below the point that makes the vehicle unusable. There's nothing worse than having a 30,000+ dollar brick.

Current prices of replacement batteries for the Prius seem to about $2,500 and for the Volt about $8,000.

The Prius seems to have an extraordinarily long-lasting design as there doesn't seem to be a lot of data on the battery lifetime in spite of the Prius's near decade of production. The Volt's battery is big bucks and has no track record. I've heard of problems about battery life in the uber expensive EVs, though.

These prices will undoubtedly go down, though, and may even much lower by the time the battery needs replacement.

[tinrobot]

43. You don't need to be "wealthy" to drive an EV

Take the Leaf, for example. It's based on the Nissan Versa. The lease on a Leaf is $369/month, the lease on the equivalent Versa is $269/month

http://www.nissanusa.com/apps/paymentestimator

If you drive 12,000 miles per year, the 30mpg Versa would consume $1,600 worth of gas at $4/gal. This adds $133/month to the cost of the car, bringing it up to $402/month. Add in a few dollars for oil changes as well. Higher gas prices mean higher fuel costs.

The Leaf consumes about $30-40/month worth of electricity for the same mileage, making the cost almost exactly the same. Some utilities give breaks on power for EVs, so this amount could be less.

You don't need to be wealthy to drive a Versa, and a Leaf costs the same or less, so you don't need to be wealthy to drive that car, either. Also, because you're leasing, you give the EV back long before the battery needs replacing.

[longship]

44. Thank you for the correction

My old Volvo 740 still runs great, but things keep breaking on it. Can't afford to fix it; can't afford a new car.

If I could, I'd buy a new Prius.

[AtheistCrusader]

49. Insurance will be higher on the Leaf.

But the costs are pretty comparable. Good point.

I'd be all over the Leaf if it had 20 more miles in range.

[zzaapp]

20. I wish Chevy would make an electric Corvette !!!!!!

[leveymg]

22. Try a TZero electric - it's faster than a Vet, as this video shows.

&feature=relmfu

[zzaapp]

29. Wow.......how much is that bad boy !!!????

[groundloop]

26. Tesla Roadster. 0-60 in 3.7 seconds.

Now if I could just afford one. (But hell, I can't afford a 'vette either).

[zzaapp]

28. 3.7 SECONDS !!!???? I'm too old for that !!!!!

[bluedigger]

21. That's very nice, but it's a Crossover, not a SUV.

It's a boxy Corolla with optional AWD.

A real SUV has high and low range 4WD.

I won't be taking a RAV4 into the back country anytime soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossover_(automobile)

[zzaapp]

30. That's probably a good idea !!!

[bluedigger]

32. Not to worry.

I've got it covered.

[zzaapp]

33. Absolutely beautiful !!!!!

And the canyon isn't bad either !!!! lol
Where was that picture taken?

[bluedigger]

34. Thanks!

I was out in Comb Wash (SE Utah) a few weeks ago.

[zzaapp]

46. Are there snakes out there ? (shudder)

[bluedigger]

47. I haven't seen any, yet.

But I doubt it's just coyotes controlling the prairie dog population.

I hate snakes, too.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. When the price comes down, I'm IN.

It has better range than the Leaf, so, I'm sold. I just can't afford it yet.

[FogerRox]

50. Good stuff, thanks Kris, KnR

[SailorBill]

51. My Love/Hate of Green Tech Discussions

There are always the definitive conclusions by uninformed reactionaries. In this discussion we have the usual nay-sayers who seem to think that what we have for batteries today will not evolve or be replaced by unexpected leaps in technology. Engineers and scientists are always working on the next big thing, which the reactionary, nattering, nabobs of negativity can never imagine. There is a lot of truth in saying that battery technology today is roughly equivalent to automotive tech of decades ago. If there were no model T, there would be no, well, whatever you may be driving today. The company I helped start is turning battery technology on its head. I know of another company that is doing the same sort of thing with solar power, and another a "gearless gearbox". This sort of thing is being accomplished by people who don't even know there is a "box" wherein thinking must occur. Don't ask what sort of chemistry our battery is using; that's in the box. Don't ask what sort of PV is used for the solar power innovation; the box again! Get the idea? No? Then get out of the way. We already have way too much resistance from behind.

[kristopher]

53. Thank you, that is a thought that needs to be expressed more often...

As a reward here is more information on the Toyota.

Toyota Goes All-Electric With Tesla’s Help
A sleek new all-electric-drive SUV from Toyota will tighten up the competition for early-adopter dollars.

HERMAN K. TRABISH: MAY 10, 2012
Electric drive lessons learned the hard way by Tesla Motors have made it possible for Toyota, a pioneer in both battery-electric and hybrid drive technology, to bring its new all-electric RAV4 to market in record time.

Though not confirmed by Toyota, it is pretty obvious that the makers of the Prius, the hybrid drive market leader, got a little nervous in 2009 to 2010 when it became obvious competition was eminent -- in car market time -- from Nissan’s all-electric LEAF and GM’s plug-in hybrid electric Chevy Volt.

Toyota’s solution for getting back in the race quickly was to make a deal with Tesla. Inked in 2010, the deal allowed Toyota to put a Tesla-designed and -produced battery and electric powertrain into its very popular RAV4, which, as chronicled in the now infamous Who Killed the Electric Car? documentary, was one of the pioneering vehicles that almost led the unrealized electric car revolution of the late 1990s.

Though the Tesla-Toyota collaboration did not get the new RAV4 to market before the LEAF and Volt hit showrooms last fall, it got it there in twenty-two months, record time in an industry where new models typically take about five years to get from planning to the showroom floor....

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/toyota-goes-all-electric-with-teslas-help/