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FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
Wed May 23, 2012, 10:39 PM May 2012

Fukushima’s doses tallied

Few people will develop cancer as a consequence of being exposed to the radioactive material that spewed from Japan’s Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant last year — and those who do will never know for sure what caused their disease. These conclusions are based on two comprehensive, independent assessments of the radiation doses received by Japanese citizens, as well as by the thousands of workers who battled to bring the shattered nuclear reactors under control.

...snip...

The UNSCEAR committee’s analyses show that 167 workers at the plant received radiation doses that slightly raise their risk of developing cancer. The general public was largely protected by being promptly evacuated, although the WHO report does find that some civilians’ exposure exceeded the government’s guidelines. “If there’s a health risk, it’s with the highly exposed workers,” says Wolfgang Weiss, the chair of UNSCEAR. Even for these workers, future cancers may never be directly tied to the accident, owing to the small number of people involved and the high background rates of cancer in developed countries such as Japan.

Scientists involved in producing the UNSCEAR report hope that their independent summary of the best available data could help to dispel some of the fear about fallout that has grown over the past year (see Nature 483, 138–140; 2012). As well as providing a preliminary assessment of workers’ exposure, the UNSCEAR report concludes that the Japanese government’s estimate of the radiation released was correct to within a factor of ten, and that further study is needed to fully understand the impacts of the accident on plants, animals and marine life near the power station. When a final version of the report is approved by the full UNSCEAR committee next year, it should provide a useful baseline for future studies.

...snip...

Experts agree that there is unlikely to be a detectable rise in thyroid cancer or leukaemia, the two cancers most likely to result from the accident. “There may be some increase in cancer risk that may not be detectable statistically,” says Kiyohiko Mabuchi, who heads Chernobyl studies at the National Cancer Institute in Rockville, Maryland. In Chernobyl, where clean-up workers were exposed to much higher doses, 0.1% of the 110,000 workers surveyed have so far developed leukaemia, although not all of those cases resulted from the accident.

http://www.nature.com/news/fukushima-s-doses-tallied-1.10686
29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Fukushima’s doses tallied (Original Post) FBaggins May 2012 OP
I guess the real question is how many radioactive particles were released johnd83 May 2012 #1
Oh, dear intaglio May 2012 #2
Didn't you just get done asking how anyone could question the Max Planck Institute? FBaggins May 2012 #3
No , I asked why you thought the people at MPI were incredible idiots intaglio May 2012 #4
Conspiracy fodder? FBaggins May 2012 #5
You are conflating "caused" with "associated" intaglio May 2012 #6
Not at all. FBaggins May 2012 #7
Utility Says It Underestimated Radiation Released in Japan RobertEarl May 2012 #8
You just can't help but make up your own reality, can you? FBaggins May 2012 #9
You talking about the term: RobertEarl May 2012 #10
No... I didn't talk about the term at all. FBaggins May 2012 #11
Nothing needs to change? RobertEarl May 2012 #12
You still don't get it. You're the one "making stuff up" FBaggins May 2012 #13
Lot of words: nothing said RobertEarl May 2012 #14
Who says they don't have the data to analyze? FBaggins May 2012 #15
I know you feel awful RobertEarl May 2012 #16
You've mistaken laughter for "feeling awful" FBaggins May 2012 #17
Thank you RobertEarl May 2012 #18
Independent scientists are studying the effects.. PamW May 2012 #20
Marginal increases? RobertEarl May 2012 #21
Yes - marginal increases PamW May 2012 #22
Dare you RobertEarl May 2012 #23
How Dare You PamW May 2012 #24
Eh? RobertEarl May 2012 #25
Answer.. PamW May 2012 #26
Well RobertEarl May 2012 #27
The policy of Japan... PamW May 2012 #28
And then there is this from ex-Prime Minister RobertEarl May 2012 #29
"Lot of words: nothing said" Nihil May 2012 #19

johnd83

(593 posts)
1. I guess the real question is how many radioactive particles were released
Wed May 23, 2012, 11:43 PM
May 2012

If the fuel for the most part stayed in the reactor, the damage will be fairly localized even if it melted down. Cleaning up the reactor itself will be very challenging because of the radiation, but it falls off relatively quickly with distance. Chernobyl was worse because there was a massive fire that pushed the radioactive fallout particles into the upper atmosphere. Also the Russians didn't value human lives that much and pushed hundreds of thousands of soldiers into the hot zone to clean the place up.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
2. Oh, dear
Thu May 24, 2012, 02:35 AM
May 2012

It is an article about what might be in a draft report that has yet to be completed. The report concerns exposures to date and, as far as I can see, covers only directly attributable illness and mortality - which is barely a tenth of the problem with radiation.

Look if it is so safe why don't you earn loads of money by joining the clean-up crews at Fukushima.

Sometimes you are such a numpty - and for the jury that is not an insult, any more than klutz.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
3. Didn't you just get done asking how anyone could question the Max Planck Institute?
Thu May 24, 2012, 06:34 AM
May 2012

But now it's the World Health Organization, the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation, and the head of the National Cancer Institute that are all idiots?

It is an article about what might be in a draft report that has yet to be completed.

I guess you don't understand how such things work. You just go hold out hope that the magic fairy will reverse the entire conclusion while it's in review.

Oh... and there are two reports out. Only one of them is a draft.

The report concerns exposures to date and, as far as I can see, covers only directly attributable illness and mortality - which is barely a tenth of the problem with radiation.

This should be entertaining. So tell us... in addition to their idiocy regarding their conclusions... what are the other 9/10ths of the problem with radiation?


intaglio

(8,170 posts)
4. No , I asked why you thought the people at MPI were incredible idiots
Thu May 24, 2012, 08:04 AM
May 2012

To which you gave no response except conspiracy fodder. http://www.democraticunderground.com/112715750

As for the report from Nature, I just read your link and the primary part concerns the unpublished (and probably unreviewed) report

9/10th; most cancers likely caused by radiation are not directly attributable to the radiation, similarly with teratogenic effects and also immune and autoimmune effects. No-one knows precisely why these pathologies are associated with excess radiation doses but there is an association.

Note I have excluded "mutations".

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
5. Conspiracy fodder?
Thu May 24, 2012, 10:52 AM
May 2012

All I did was show you how much "science" went into the figure (none at all). No conspiracy there... the same calculation has been performed in posts here for over a year (with the same ridiculously faulty assumptions behind them).

As for the report from Nature, I just read your link and the primary part concerns the unpublished (and probably unreviewed) report

Which coincides with a WHO study as well that isn't a draft.

9/10th; most cancers likely caused by radiation are not directly attributable to the radiation, similarly with teratogenic effects and also immune and autoimmune effects. No-one knows precisely why these pathologies are associated with excess radiation doses but there is an association.

So what you're claiming is that there's actual science to document the fact that the impact of radiation is ten times the impact of radiation? And you don't see the internally conflicting logic there?

For the record, not understanding the mechanism by which a particular cancer occured doesn't keep it from ending up in the statistics that feed dose response estimates. It's ridiculous to claim without any evidence at all that they just left out 90% of the health impact in their estimates.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
6. You are conflating "caused" with "associated"
Thu May 24, 2012, 11:12 AM
May 2012

I thought you had a basic science education.

And you can answer the conspiracy theory charge on the thread where it was posted.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
7. Not at all.
Thu May 24, 2012, 11:18 AM
May 2012

You're inventing such an association.

Please link to any serious study demonstrating your claim that 90% of the health impact that can be associated with radiation is left off.

And you can answer the conspiracy theory charge on the thread where it was posted.

I did. But I'm free to do so here as well.

The real CT nutcases are the ones who believe that the UNSCEAR, WHO, health physics association, cancer institutes, federal, state, and local governments and health agencies in two countries (etc. etc.) are all covering up the awful truth that is really out there.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
8. Utility Says It Underestimated Radiation Released in Japan
Fri May 25, 2012, 01:05 PM
May 2012

Utility Says It Underestimated Radiation Released in Japan

TOKYO (Reuters) — The amount of radioactive materials released in the first days of the Fukushima nuclear disaster was almost two and a half times the initial estimate by Japanese safety regulators, the operator of the crippled plant said in a report released on Thursday.


OP: "UNSCEAR report hope that their independent summary of the best available data"

Now they have better data. Time to redo the report.


OP: "As well as providing a preliminary assessment of workers’ exposure, the UNSCEAR report concludes that the Japanese government’s estimate of the radiation released was correct to within a factor of ten,.."

Now we know the data provided by TEPCO, today, shows the data that UNSCEAR based it's report is no longer valid. Time for another report, eh?

As a whole, any reports from our government or its brown nosers are now known to be pretty much just full of it, eh?

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
9. You just can't help but make up your own reality, can you?
Sat May 26, 2012, 06:48 AM
May 2012

If you actually read it, they clearly said that the number Japan was working with was reasonable within an order of magnitude and that they intended to do their own estimate. You put it in your own post and you can't be bothered to understand what it says?

It's also useful to note that nothing changed that impacts the estimated doses. This revision was the result of using those existing measures to better estimate the original releases.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
10. You talking about the term:
Sat May 26, 2012, 09:54 AM
May 2012

"As a whole".....do you get the drift? The play on words that has an altogether different meaning?

Anyway..... the reports preceding the release of accurate data are now worthless and can only be used as propaganda.

Now that we have more accurate data any reporters who were not
'as a whole' dishonest would chuck their junk and set about trying
to make themselves look less stupid.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
11. No... I didn't talk about the term at all.
Sat May 26, 2012, 09:13 PM
May 2012

Yes, I got that your crude understanding of the situation was matched by your crude deportment (do you get the drift / play on words?). Yes, I get that you think you're quite clever. What you don't get is that you're making yourself look foolish.

What you don't get is that your post isn't logical. Neither report is in any way based on the total release estimates for Fukushima... and therefore there isn't any need to redo them in light of the changed figure.

Both the reevaluation of the total release and the dose estimates are based on figures that haven't changed That is, the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of activity readings taken over the last year. The recent international reviews did look at those numbers and say that the earlier estimates of total release were reasonable to within a factor of ten. The new estimate of total release is well within that statement... so again, nothing needs to change in their conclusions.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
12. Nothing needs to change?
Sat May 26, 2012, 09:37 PM
May 2012

How you think you can make stuff up and come to conclusions when the authors of the report have come to no conclusions is... well, there is a term for that.....

C&P from the OP... in Bold is the report's statements about no conclusions and maybes

Scientists involved in producing the UNSCEAR report hope that their independent summary of the best available data could help to dispel some of the fear about fallout that has grown over the past year (see Nature 483, 138–140; 2012). As well as providing a preliminary assessment of workers’ exposure, the UNSCEAR report concludes that the Japanese government’s estimate of the radiation released was correct to within a factor of ten, and that further study is needed to fully understand the impacts of the accident on plants, animals and marine life near the power station. When a final version of the report is approved by the full UNSCEAR committee next year, it should provide a useful baseline for future studies.


Lets also consider this idea of a factor of ten. What is that supposed to mean? That is was a tenth, or it was ten times greater?

Did the report use the just released data from Tepco that showed much greater >>>100% releases than what UNSCEAR had because Tepco just did release it's numbers.

So, please, just quit making stuff up such as:

"..nothing needs to change in their conclusions."

Because even they say they used available data, it is preliminary, and a final version is due next year, when it WILL have changed. How in the heck can you sit there and say it is complete when even they say their report is NOT?

There is a term for ideas like yours.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
13. You still don't get it. You're the one "making stuff up"
Sat May 26, 2012, 09:58 PM
May 2012

You're sitting there assuming that the UNSCEAR report used the total release from Fukushima as part of their analysis... and now they'll be forced to change it in light of the new estimate.

That's simply wrong. I can't think of another, kinder, way to say it to you... you don't know what you're talking about.

Scientists involved in producing the UNSCEAR report hope that their independent summary of the best available data

That's correct. And "the best available data" is not the total release estimate. That isn't data... it's an estimate based on the data.

Lets also consider this idea of a factor of ten. What is that supposed to mean? That is was a tenth, or it was ten times greater?

That's right. You think that it doesn't make sense, but they are saying that they thing the "real" final figure will be somewhere between one tenth and ten times greater. That's because all we have to work with is measurements of activity levels over many months (combined with weather data and the timeline of the accident). UNSCEAR is using those figures to estimate doses (as they should) and Japan is using the same figures to estimate the total release. Both figures are the output of analysis of actual data... they neither rely on one another nor refute one another.

Pay attention now. Imagine that it turns out that Fukushima actually released 100 times as much... but the extra 99% leaked out to an unknown cavern well below the sea floor (so it never impacted any of the radiation readings across the countryside or offshore). The estimate of the total release would have to go up (and the statement that the estimate was thought to be accurate within a factor of ten would need to be corrected), but the dose to the public would not change. So the reports that estimate that dose would not need to change either.

Did the report use the just released data from Tepco that showed much greater >>>100% releases than what UNSCEAR had because Tepco just did release it's numbers.

Nope. What you miss is that they didn't use the new number... or the old number. So the change doesn't imact their analysis at all.

Because even they say they used available data

Indeed they do. But it's you that claims their using something that isn't "data" at all... but an estimate based on an analysis of that data.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
14. Lot of words: nothing said
Sat May 26, 2012, 10:16 PM
May 2012

Their analysis of the data? They don't even have the complete data to analyze.

Funny you should talk about a deep cavern... because that is where the corium of the 3 leaking reactor "ex-containers" is going.... Down into the ground. Down which means they probably will never be able to contain or clean up. And where does this cavern sit? Why, right on the edge of the ocean. An ocean into which groundwater discharges.

And what do people eat? Why, they eat fish that comes from the ocean that the corium is flowing into.

And people eat plants that grow in dirt. Dirt that has shown such high levels of radioactivity that some dirt is being scraped up and hauled away. So that is another set of data that is unknown and therefore un-analyzed.

Why can't you see this simple stuff? Even the report makes mention of these future impacts. As a whole, the report is nothing more than an attempt to allay fears. And it doesn't even accomplish that.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
15. Who says they don't have the data to analyze?
Sat May 26, 2012, 10:26 PM
May 2012

They have a representative sampling in the hundreds of thousands of readings. Sure, they're going to refine their estimate, and the purpose of the initial release is so that their peers can review their work... but it's dishonest to pretend that they either don't have access to data, or that the new total release estimate is new data that they lacked.

Well... dishonest or ignorant. Take your pick.

Funny you should talk about a deep cavern... because that is where the corium of the 3 leaking reactor "ex-containers" is going.... Down into the ground.

Which puts you firmly into chemtrail conspiracy fantasy land.

And where does this cavern sit? Why, right on the edge of the ocean. An ocean into which groundwater discharges.

And yet the ongoing monitoring of the sea right next to the reactors and for miles out fails to pick up this discharge?

Oh wait... I know. All of the universities/provinces/agencies involved are all in on the lie, right?

And what do people eat? Why, they eat fish that comes from the ocean that the corium is flowing into.

And the fish is also checked for contamination. That's all part of the conspiracy too, right?

Why can't you see this simple stuff? Even the report makes mention of these future impacts

Of course it does... because the dose is ongoing. But that doesn't mean that they can't estimate the dose received to date.

Just as importantly (and what you persist in ignoring), there are actual dose measurements that have been done (in one case they specifically mention, over 1,000 children in the area they expected the highest doses). The actual doses measured were significantly lower than the high end of the WHO/UNSCEAR estimates. Which clearly indicates that they've been conservative. So again, it's ignorant/dishonest to claim that they're lying in an attempt to allay fears.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
16. I know you feel awful
Sat May 26, 2012, 10:41 PM
May 2012

This concerns the people of Japan.

They eat, breathe and live with the radiation from Fukushima.
But it's ok, because some scientists say it is ok. No worries.

Of course the scientist don't really have all the data, but they do have a report!! A report, I tell ya, A REPORT!!

Nevermind nothing like this ever happened before, they are scientist and scientist are never wrong. Except when they are. Damn. What a conundrum. Scientist are sometimes WRONG!

I know you feel awful about the truth that is why you are making stuff up.
Can't say that i blame you. The only way out is down.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
17. You've mistaken laughter for "feeling awful"
Sat May 26, 2012, 10:43 PM
May 2012

I know that tears can be involved in both cases, but I assure you this is pure
(And no... that's laughing at your ongoing attempts at spin... not at the people of Japan).

More direct evidence for you.

From their presser:

The work so far has been focussed on collecting and reviewing the material published in the scientific
literature, defining the assessment methodologies and working arrangements, and defining processes
for quality assurance of the data and analysis. There are many sources of data for the Committee’s
evaluation; the most important of which are:


- Data from Japan from official government agencies; many are available on websites, though not
in machine-readable formats; most, but not all of the information, is available in English. The
Government of Japan has been requested to supply the data in electronic formats, together
with supplementary information, so that the experts can more readily use the data;

- Measurements made by other United Nations Member States are being compiled and reviewed;

- Compiled and checked datasets are being made available by other United Nations organizations,
including the Preparatory Commission for the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty
Organization (CTBTO), the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations (FAO), the
International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the World Health Organization (WHO) and the
World Meteorological Organization (WMO); and

- Information and independent analyses published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

http://www.unis.unvienna.org/pdf/2012/UNSCEAR_Backgrounder.pdf


In other words, none of that they have used so far relies on the government estimates of total release. None of the data they've been using has changed, so there isn't a need to start over with this imaginary "new" data.

They go on in the following section to talk about those total releases and say only that they will do their own estimates and their look at the total release estimate says that they are "plausible as initial estimates".

So once again, you're entirely innaccurate to pretend that either the WHO or UNSCEAR dose estimates need to be tossed out in light of revisions on figures that they explicitly say at initial estimates and don't say that they fed their own work.
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
18. Thank you
Sat May 26, 2012, 11:23 PM
May 2012

You just proved my point that they don't have all the data needed to make a determination that there is nothing for the people of Japan to worry about.

And as the data comes in... what people eat and breathe, and what ends up in the atmosphere (it ain't over!!) then, and only then, as your post says:

"...will do their own estimates and their look at the total release estimate"

When all is said and done and the nuke waste is no longer released a report will maybe, possibly, become good science. Give it 10 years.

Problem tho; the nuke waste will never be totally contained.

Thank you for proving me right. Again.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
20. Independent scientists are studying the effects..
Mon May 28, 2012, 02:21 PM
May 2012

FBaggins is correct that we don't need to accept the word of TEPCO or the Japanese Government.

Independent scientists from the USA have been studying and measuring the radiation from the very beginning.

The US national laboratories report to President Obama on their assessments. You can read what US scientists are doing at:

https://str.llnl.gov/JanFeb12/sugiyama.html

http://www.anl.gov/articles/argonne-team-helps-map-fukushima-radiation-release

http://www.ne.anl.gov/jp/fukushima-facts-and-myths.shtml

http://www.ne.anl.gov/jp/index.shtml

The media seems to focus on the "self-styled" scientists that are out to sensationalize the whole incident, and the media covers them because they like sensationalism.

However, I believe the denizens of DU would rather have accurate information rather than trumped up garbage designed to frighten and outrage people. That's why I believe the DU readers would rather read what the real scientists that have experience in the field are saying.

The real scientists are interested in getting out the scientific truth, and they are not part of a conspiracy.

Additionally, people have to learn how much radiation they are exposed to just because they live on this planet. I like to analogize it to germs. People don't believe that the natural world is sterile and if someone released a small amount of germs that would constitute a major health risk. We have immune systems that handle the much larger onslaught from Mother Nature's germs.

Likewise, people have to learn how much radiation they are already exposed to, and the same radiation DNA damage repair mechanism that we all have as part of our biological machinery that copes with the much larger onslaught of radiation from Mother Nature, will also handle the marginal increases due to Fukushima, in stride.

PamW

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
21. Marginal increases?
Mon May 28, 2012, 07:34 PM
May 2012

Yeah,

"Guess what folks, too fucking bad for you!!"

""You will eat our marginal increases and you will like it.""

That crap is puke and vomit material. You really should just stop.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
22. Yes - marginal increases
Tue May 29, 2012, 10:25 AM
May 2012

Many laboratories, from national laboratories to university laboratories have studied the radiation and done spectroscopy on it.

If you do spectroscopy, measuring the energy of the particles, you can tell which isotopes are responsible for the radiation and how much of the radiation that isotope is responsible for, because each isotope has its own energy "signature".

When you do that you can learn how much of the radiation is due to radioisotopes from Fukushima like I-131 and Cs-137, and how much is due to natural radioisotopes made by Mother Nature such as C-14, K-40,...

When you do that, you find that the vast majority of the radioactivity and radiation is due to the natural radioisotopes, and that the Fukushima fission products are a marginal contributor. That's why the word marginal was used above.

PamW

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
23. Dare you
Tue May 29, 2012, 10:37 AM
May 2012

I dare you to go to Japan, stand in Fukushima prefecture, at a farmer's door and tell them about your evil marginal increases. I dare you. You sit there making money off nukes and tell us this crap. Well, put your money where you mouth is and go tell a Japanese farmer whose ancestors farmed the land that he can no longer live on, how smart you are.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
24. How Dare You
Tue May 29, 2012, 05:55 PM
May 2012

What evidence do have to back up your accusation that I'm making money off nuclear power?

You have NONE, because I don't! What is with the mental processes of people who think the only way someone can be in favor of nuclear energy is if they are making money off it.

I'm telling you what good scientists say.

Of course, we've heard this type of garbage before. There were those that said that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were ruined, and that the Japanese could never live there again...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...and look how that turned out.

Why don't you stuff your mock outrage for a few years, and see how this all turns out.

PamW

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
25. Eh?
Tue May 29, 2012, 06:03 PM
May 2012

I could swear that you stated once that you worked in the nuclear field.

If you do not, and have never received a dime from the industry, then I apologize. I'll see if I can find your statement.

As for comparing Fukushima with Hiroshima, that is just bogus. The amount and duration of the releases is nowhere near comparable.

My outrage is not mock. It comes from being an environmentalist and someone who cares what happens to people. People in Japan are being greatly effected. And, I have a hunch, the whole world is. Tuna in California have been found with particles from Fukushima and need we mention the deposition across the US as found by the EPA?

PamW

(1,825 posts)
26. Answer..
Wed May 30, 2012, 10:22 AM
May 2012

I said I work for a University that is a contractor to the US Dept. of Energy. Some "think" that means I work in the nuclear power field.

However, I have NEVER worked for the nuclear industry and have never received a dime from the industry that runs nuclear power plants.
( Maybe one of my mutual funds is invested in a nuclear utility - but that's about the extent of it )

The comparison with Hiroshima is apt. Following the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there were people who said that those cities would be uninhabitable for a thousands of years. However, in just a few years both cities were repopulated.

If you want to be a good environmentalist; then you need to learn some science. You need to learn that the world is radioactive naturally, and in spite of all the hype; Fukushima has contributed that only marginally. You need to compare the radiation doses due to Fukushima to the radiation doses that Mother Nature inflicts on us. You will then see that the additional dose is marginal. The reason the doses from Mother Nature are handled in stride is that we have a DNA radiation damage repair mechanism in our biological machinery just as we have an immune system to protect us from germs.

People additionally add to their radiation exposure by living at altitudes above sea level, by flying in airliners.... and all those have zero effect on your health because they are within the ability of the repair mechanism to manage.

If you want to feel sorry for the environment, feel sorry for a country that puts 14,000 tons of alpha radiation emitting Uranium and Thorium into the air each and every year:

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

PamW

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
27. Well
Wed May 30, 2012, 12:12 PM
May 2012

I see the people of Japan are going to close all the nuke plants and live without nuke power.

That pretty much tells the story about how environmentally safe nukes are.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
28. The policy of Japan...
Wed May 30, 2012, 06:10 PM
May 2012

The policy of Japan is set by the Japanese politicians. If Japan is going to do without nuclear power, it is the policy of the politicians.

You have a strange definition of what constitutes "proof" or "telling the story"; if the politicians do it, then that is proof.

Besides, I would bet that when Japanese industry is reconstructed back to what it had been, and the demand for electric power is back to pre-earthquake levels, and the Japanese have a choice of lower industry activity and no nuclear power, or to be back to their old level of wealth / job creation due to an industrial level powered by nuclear power; they will choose the latter.

PamW

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
29. And then there is this from ex-Prime Minister
Wed May 30, 2012, 09:15 PM
May 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/asia/japans-naoto-kan-condemns-nuclear-power.html

In an unusually stark warning, Japan’s prime minister during last year’s nuclear crisis told a parliamentary inquiry on Monday that the country should discard nuclear power as too dangerous, saying the Fukushima accident had pushed Japan to the brink of “national collapse.”

...his strongest comments came at the end of his testimony, when a panel member asked him if he had any advice for the current prime minister. Mr. [Naoto] Kan replied that the accident had brought Japan to the brink of evacuating metropolitan Tokyo and its 30 million residents. He said the loss of the capital would have paralyzed the national government, leading to “a collapse of the nation’s ability to function.”

He said the prospect of losing Tokyo made him realize that nuclear power was just too risky, the consequences of an accident too large, for Japan to accept.

“It is impossible to ensure safety sufficiently to prevent the risk of a national collapse,” Mr. Kan said. “Experiencing the accident convinced me that the best way to make nuclear plants safe is not to rely on them, but rather to get rid of them.”
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