Germany counts cost of nuclear-to-renewables shift

[FBaggins]

Germany's government, the federal energy network regulator and grid firms unveiled joint plans to build thousands of kilometers of new electricity lines by 2022, to help distribute volatile renewable energy.

Martin Fuchs, whose company TenneT TSO operates the grid to carry offshore wind power from the North Sea to mainland destinations, said that on top of 20 billion euros that must be invested onshore, there would also be a bill of perhaps 12 billion euros to connect future wind parks.

...snip...

Industry has warned of power shortages and companies are experiencing problems with plans for offshore wind power due partly to an inadequate grid. Fuchs of TenneT said Germany needed to build 2,100 km of direct current lines and 1,700 km of alternating current lines, while 4,000 km of existing power lines needed modernizing.

...snip...

Separately, transmission grid firm Amprion said at a news conference that it could invest nearly 10 billion euros in expanding the power network by 2025, although this would require "sustainable and reliable investment conditions". The task of agreeing on new infrastructure projects with affected citizens will not be easy for the power sector.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/29/us-germany-energy-idUSBRE84S13K20120529

[Throckmorton]

1. Sounds like job opportunities N/T

[FBaggins]

2. But how many are "broken window" jobs? n/t

[Throckmorton]

9. Is my job maintaining the controls to a 36 year old nuclear plant a 'Broken Window" job?

I still get paid, and if the windows don't get repair, what then?

[kristopher]

3. Keep this in mind with press like the OP - expect the onslaught to increase

Right wing stepping up attacks on renewable energy
A network of ultra-conservative groups is ramping up an offensive on multiple fronts to turn the American public against wind farms and Barack Obama's energy agenda.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112714465


ALEC Says It Plans To Craft Legislation To Take Down State Renewable Energy Targets
Two leading conservative political organizations say they are stepping up coordinated efforts to repeal state-level renewable energy targets.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112715562

[FBaggins]

4. Why do you so regularly spin simple facts as "attacks"/"onslaughts"/ etc?

In this case do you believe that additional transmission capacity is not urgently needed... or is it that you think the costs are overblown (and based on what evidence)?

Or is it just that you wish they wouldn't tell anyone?

[Nihil]

5. I suppose it makes a change from Mark Z Jacobson spam ...

... but of the 5 E/E posts opened so far this morning, 3 of them have included
the oh-so-familiar cut & paste that we see in .3 in an attempt to steer every
single thread back to one person's paranoid obsession ...

[Kolesar]

6. That added a lot to the discussion. Thanks

[Nihil]

7. It added precisely the same amount as the post that it replied to ...

... and the one that replied to it in turn I suppose.

[Kolesar]

8. ^the "fat kid from Pee Wee's Big Adventure" defense

very impressive

[Nihil]

10. That might have been meaningful ...

... had I been sufficiently retarded to have known such dross before having
to Google it.

The last word is all yours pal - more interesting things to do than engage
with someone who uses that level as "very impressive" ...

[kristopher]

12. Facts are stubborn things nihil

If you don't like seeing Jacobson so much then all you'd need to do is step in yourself and correct the false claims his paper served to refute. You never did that, however, because you clearly wished those false claims to be taken as factual.

This is a similar case. Why would you object to ensuring that the wider audience is made aware of and reminded that there is an orchestrated campaign in progress to undermine public support for renewable energy?

Given your oft stated position that dealing with climate change is at the center of your value system, I would think you would want everyone to take into account the nature of fossil fuel and nuclear propaganda - and yet you'd rather have it sink into oblivion.

Odd.

[Nihil]

15. Facts are wonderful things Kristopher

My objection wasn't even to Jacobsen's opinions on the underlying facts.
These were successfully corrected many times by people with far more
patience than I had and yet the faith in MZJ was so strong that mere facts
appeared to wilt in comparison. Or were simply ignored.

My objection with the infamous MZJ spamming was the same as with the
equally infamous photo gallery spamming: not the facts but the mindless
repetition of the contents of your paste buffer.

The facts are fine. By nature of the discussion on such subjects (and also
the self-kicks that you apply to those threads) they are not about to
"sink into oblivion" and yes, it is very good that they don't do so.

That doesn't mean that I want to read the same paste buffer on every
other thread that I open in E/E and that was all that my original comment
was meaning.

You post a great deal of very useful & pertinent information Kristopher.

That doesn't mean that I want to read the same thing time & time again
in every thread that I open.

[kristopher]

16. As I said, all you have to do is correct the record yourself

If you don't want to see the same corrections of misinformation then YOU do the job of correcting the falsehoods.

As far as Jacobson's facts being "corrected" - that simply did not happen. You certainly led the charge with the claim, but the actual fact was nothing but another myth of the nuclear fan club.

Jacobson's work stands as solid and your bitching about "spam" stands as the vacuous whining that it is.

[GliderGuider]

11. And more: German Power Grids Increasingly Strained

German Power Grids Increasingly Strained

Facts are nasty little things. Not that I want to see them restart any nukes - I'd rather see grids collapse so we can get on with the powerdown.

[kristopher]

13. US power grids are also increasingly strained.

So what?

Trumpetting what is actually non-news and making it appear to have special significance is good journalism in your mind?

Or is it a part of the same antirenewable messaging strategy we've seen since day one of the decision to shut down the nuclear plants?

[GliderGuider]

14. Just pointing to what other knowledgeable people have written, kristopher.

Grids around the world are getting strained. This may be something worth paying attention to

[Franker65]

17. Costly but effective

I'd say a big grid expansion is costly but if they do manage to go totally green, that will pay for itself given time. Bigger grid might also mean more chances to export electricity as well.