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Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
Mon May 6, 2013, 08:43 PM May 2013

EPA proposing E30 Ethanol blend to enable auto makers to produce higher compression engines for


better performance ... e.g better fuel efficiency.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/epatier3hof-20130403.html

As part of the proposed Tier 3 rulemaking on vehicle emissions and gasoline sulfur content released last week (earlier post), the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is proposing to allow vehicle manufacturers to request approval for an alternative certification fuel—such as a high-octane 30% ethanol by volume (E30) blend—for vehicles they might design or optimize for use on such a fuel.

Higher octane fuels can lead to higher compression ratios which in turn can lead to more efficient gasoline engines and reduced fuel consumption. With turbocharged gasoline engines, there is a double benefit: higher compression ratios and increased boost. (Earlier post.) Having approval for such a high octane certification fuel would, the EPA proposed in the Tier 3 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking:


...help manufacturers that wish to raise compression ratios to improve vehicle efficiency, as a step toward complying with the 2017 and later light-duty greenhouse gas and CAFE standards (2017 LD GHG). This in turn could help provide a market incentive to increase ethanol use beyond E10 by overcoming the disincentive of lower fuel economy associated with increasing ethanol concentrations in fuel, and enhance the environmental performance of ethanol as a transportation fuel by using it to enable more fuel efficient engines.


(more)


Squeezing More From Ethanol - NYT
(emphases my own)

Tucked inside the E.P.A.’s March announcement of a plan to cut the amount of sulfur allowed in gasoline was an audacious suggestion that sought to solve all three ethanol challenges at once. The proposal, for a fuel that is 30 percent ethanol, could reduce tailpipe emissions and improve fuel economy — and even encourage drivers to use more ethanol.

~~

The idea has widespread support among technical experts.

~~
~~

...various engine and fuel experts like the idea, because the E.P.A. is inviting the auto companies to take advantage of the good characteristics of ethanol, including an octane rating that is well over 100.

“That’s getting smarter,” said Margaret Wooldridge, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Michigan. The way ethanol is used now, she said, “if anybody does notice there’s any ethanol in the fuel, it’s always in a way that is negative.”
(more)


"The idea has widespread support among technical experts." ...REALLY?? YOu wouldn't have known there was any advantages to ethanol to listen and read almost everything said and printed about ethanol over the last ten years or so!


10 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

Mopar151

(9,973 posts)
3. What messes up small engines is old, watery gas
Mon May 6, 2013, 10:38 PM
May 2013

And E10 seperates into crappy gas and a water/alcohol mix that won't even burn. There are new storage stabilizers for E-10 around, from Sta-bil. Lucas, and others.
There are special, storage -stable, gasolines around now - VP hydrocarbons makes SEF (Small Engine Fuel), and several leaded racing gasolines are quite stable - These are intended for occasionally used stuff that HAS to start - backup generators, fire pumps, and the like.

doc03

(35,282 posts)
4. That problem didn't exist until they started mixing
Mon May 6, 2013, 11:11 PM
May 2013

ethanol in our gasoline. Besides that it doesn't make sense to make fuel out of food. All it does is raise prices of all food. The nearest supplier of no ethanol gasoline I know of around here is a 50 mile drive to a marina that caries it.

Mopar151

(9,973 posts)
5. Horsepucky!
Tue May 7, 2013, 05:34 AM
May 2013

Ethanol replaced some real bad stuff - MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) - which is a champ at poisioning groundwater. Different blends of gasoline base stock go bad in different ways - some decompose in the presence of sunlight, others attack fuel system components.
Corn ethanol is, I hope, an intermediate step - there are pilot plants operating on a process to make cellulose - based ethanol. the real problem with corn ethanol is the amount of water required by the corn.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
7. petroleum costs are the big driver in food costs. Ethanol is bringing down oil costs, thus it's
Tue May 7, 2013, 04:41 PM
May 2013

impact on corn prices is greatly reduced by ethanol's forcing down oil prices (which lowers the price of ALL farm commodities - not just corn).

Domesticly sourced oil (called: West Texas Intermediate) for decades sold at a premium (6% to 8%) to oil from anywhere else in the world because it has less sulphur and doesn't require as much refining. Starting around 2005 when ethanol was starting to equal a more significant addition to the domestic fuel supply WTI prices started moving down relative to World oil prices. For the last few years WTI has been selling about 14% to 18% BELOW North Sea Brent (oil from anywhere else in the World). Total price swing there is 20% to 26%.


Big Oil vs. Ethanol
(emphases my own)
[font size="3"]The observation that ethanol and corn prices have not tracked and the hope that expanding
ethanol and biofuel production will discipline the market power of oil companies and lead to
lower gasoline prices may strike some as odd, particularly in light of concerns that effort to
use ethanol to reduce oil consumption and import dependence will raise food prices. [/font]
[font size="+1"]Historically the relationship has run in the opposite direction – high energy prices cause higher food prices (see Exhibit 9). The relationship is moderate, accounting for about one third of the variation in corn prices. The relationship reflects the fact that corn production is intensive in the use of liquid fuels and natural gas, whose price tends to track the price of crude.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
6. LOL, I love screw-ball humor. For serious treatment of this issue see: "Big Oil vs. Ethanol" -
Tue May 7, 2013, 04:25 PM
May 2013
BIG OIL v. ETHANOL: THE CONSUMER STAKE IN EXPANDING THE PRODUCTION OF LIQUID FUELS - the Consumer Federation of America
http://www.consumerfed.org/elements/www.consumerfed.org/file/Ethanol.pdf
(emphasis my own)

CONCLUSION

[font size="+1"]Big Oil has reacted aggressively against the expansion of ethanol production,
suggesting that it perceives the growth of biofuels as an independent, competitive threat to its market power in refining and gasoline marketing.[/font] This paper explored the market
fundamentals that underlay Big Oil’s reaction to policies to expand ethanol production. We
find that, at the critical margins of spare capacity, the expansion of ethanol capacity could
pose a real threat to the tight market situation that Big Oil has created by steadily underinvesting
in refining capacity. The vigorously competitive ethanol sector is set to undergo a
dramatic expansion, which could alter the extremely tight supply-demand balance that has
afflicted gasoline consumers for the past seven years. While there are many other aspects of
the expansion of ethanol that deserve close attention – such as non-food feed stocks and land
management issues – on the market structural potential for ethanol to be a game changer,
consumers have a large stake in the outcome of the war being waged by Big Oil against
ethanol. Supporting increased competition in the automobile fuels market will help discipline
a market dominated by a handful of multinational oil companies that are extracting monopoly
profits from US gasoline consumers.



Fill up with Ethanol?: One Obstacle is Big Oil - Wall Street Journal(emphases my own)

Although some oil executives voice enthusiasm for alternative fuels, oil-company policies make it harder for many service stations to stock a fuel called E85, a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
~~
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... Oil companies lose sales every time a driver chooses E85, and they employ a variety of tactics that help keep the fuel out of stations that bear the company name. For instance, franchises sometimes are required to purchase all the fuel they sell from the oil company. Since oil companies generally don't sell E85, the stations can't either, unless the company grants an exception and lets them buy from another supplier.

Contracts sometimes limit advertising of E85 and restrict the use of credit cards to pay for it. Some require that any E85 pump be on a separate island, not under the main canopy.

~~
~~

Exxon Mobil Corp.'s standard contract with Exxon stations bars them from buying fuel from anybody but itself, and it doesn't sell E85. A spokeswoman for Exxon Mobil says it makes exceptions case by case.
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Big Oil's Big Stall on Ethanol - Bloomberg Businessweek
(emphases my own)

Despite collecting billions for blending small amounts of ethanol with gas, oil companies seem determined to fight the spread of E85, a fuel that is 85% ethanol and 15% gas. Congress has set a target of displacing 15% of projected annual gasoline use with alternative fuels by 2017. Right now, wider availability of E85 is the likeliest way to get there.

...At the same time the industry is collecting a 51 cents-per-gallon federal subsidy for each gallon of ethanol it mixes with gas and sells as E10 (10% ethanol and 90% gas), [font size="+1"]it's working against the E85 blend with tactics both overt and stealthy. Efforts range from funding studies that bash the spread of ethanol for driving up the price of corn, and therefore some food, to not supporting E85 pumps at gas stations.[/font] The tactics infuriate a growing chorus of critics, from the usual suspects—pro-ethanol consumer groups—to the unexpected: the oil industry's oft-time ally, the auto industry.

Those who criticize the industry's stance see it as reminiscent of its attempts to discredit the theory that human use of fossil fuels has caused global warming. Mark N. Cooper, research director at the Consumer Federation of America, authored a recent paper characterizing the situation as "Big Oil's war on ethanol." The industry, he writes, "reacted aggressively against the expansion of ethanol production, suggesting that it perceives the growth of biofuels as an independent, competitive threat to its market power in refining and gasoline marketing."
(more)



again from Big Oil vs. Ethanol
(emphases my own)
[font size="3"]The observation that ethanol and corn prices have not tracked and the hope that expanding
ethanol and biofuel production will discipline the market power of oil companies and lead to
lower gasoline prices may strike some as odd, particularly in light of concerns that effort to
use ethanol to reduce oil consumption and import dependence will raise food prices. [/font]
[font size="+1"]Historically the relationship has run in the opposite direction – high energy prices cause higher food prices (see Exhibit 9). The relationship is moderate, accounting for about one third of the variation in corn prices. The relationship reflects the fact that corn production is intensive in the use of liquid fuels and natural gas, whose price tends to track the price of crude.

Indyfan53

(473 posts)
8. Would be nice if this actually happens.
Tue May 7, 2013, 10:23 PM
May 2013

I imagine big oil will do whatever they can to stop this. John D. Rockefeller lobbied for prohibition so Henry Ford couldn't run his cars on ethanol.

While I support using ethanol, we need to use other feedstocks besides corn. Making it from cellulose is much better. Imagine making fuel from yard waste. No need for pesticide-ridden farms and deforestation.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
9. Even better, I think, is to use methanol. It will work about as good as ethanol in FFVs and it's
Wed May 8, 2013, 06:09 PM
May 2013

spot price is around $1.45 a gallon. It is made from Natural gas or coal but can be made from forestry waste and agricultural waste. Methanol could be added to the ethanol we currently are making to make a bigger dent in our gasoline/oil consumption.

The Ethanol Direct Injection engine designed by three MIT scientists, which gets 30% better mpg than an ICE using gasoline, while using 5% ethanol (directly injected) can use methanol as well. the marginal cost of this engine is about $1,000 to $1,500 a copy. Thus, much more affordable for consumers and that means much more rapid adoption than vehicles costing $4,000 more (hybrids) to $15,000 more for Plug-ins. Since we are virtually out of time to hope to ever turn GWing around, speed of adoption is critical. You can replace the fuel cars burn much faster than you can replace the cars that burn the fuel.

We could make enough methanol to replace ALL THE GASOLINE WE BURN. Think what that would do for energy security and to protect our economy from the relentless rise in the price of oil and the very likely possibility of oil supply disruptions (middle East: Syrian civil war, increased influence of Iran).


I doubt if anything like an actual POLICY or program to incentivize and facilitate E30 or Ethanol/Methanol 30% pumps will happen which would incentivize auto manufacturers to build cars which can take advantage of ethanol/methanol's higher octane. Big Oil can pretty much call the shots in Washington. Look how thoroughly bamboozled they have 99% of the public re ethanol's attractiveness as a fuel!

But we won't do anything until our economy is in a deep hole from the price of oil going through the roof. Wish I was wrong but with the Middle East falling apart that is a very likely scenario.

but, most will drift along with: "What? me worry?"

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