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wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
Thu May 23, 2013, 04:57 PM May 2013

The Renewable Energy Reality Check

"Renewable energy is ideologically very attractive. After all, who would not want clean and "free" energy for everyone forever? Such ideological perfection can easily switch off the critical thinking of environmentally conscious individuals and this is exactly what we are seeing at the moment. This article will therefore attempt to reactivate some of that critical thinking.

Minimal impact on climate change


The first point to be made is that the chances of renewable energy being deployed at a rate sufficiently high to have a meaningful impact on climate change are slim to none. Leading energy authorities such as the IEA, BP, the EIA and Exxon all agree that renewable energy other than hydro will probably contribute about 5% of the global energy mix by 2035. By that time, atmospheric CO2 concentrations will already be well past 450 ppm.


Energy mix projections by the IEA

Even if all of these energy experts are off by 100% and renewable energy sources like solar, wind and biofuels contribute 10% of global energy by 2035, global CO2 emissions will still be increasing, rapidly driving atmospheric concentrations towards 550 ppm and beyond. Decarbonizing the energy sector by other means (e.g. CCS and nuclear) will be much more effective."

http://theenergycollective.com/schalk-cloete/228151/renewable-energy-reality-check#comment-form

60 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Renewable Energy Reality Check (Original Post) wtmusic May 2013 OP
I very much want to hear from those at DU who repeatedly claim that this profile is wrong. Buzz Clik May 2013 #1
Renewables Jesus has the answer. wtmusic May 2013 #2
This study of predictions shows your sources are the least reliable of all available. kristopher May 2013 #4
Excellent rebuttal, as usual. Stay after them. nt ladjf May 2013 #18
The Original Post Reality Check Wilms May 2013 #3
You forgot the EIA wtmusic May 2013 #5
See article in post 4 kristopher May 2013 #6
Nah. I posted a comment about "their" data, too Wilms May 2013 #7
What's your point? wtmusic May 2013 #9
Written by the president of an "alternative energy" company who stands to profit immensely wtmusic May 2013 #8
Really now. Is a photo of fat Rex Tillerson supposed to prove something? wtmusic May 2013 #11
First off, that isn't Tillerson. Wilms May 2013 #13
Apology accepted. wtmusic May 2013 #15
I will admit that I haven't read the article. Archaic May 2013 #10
The graph forecasts a drop in coal use (by percentage) wtmusic May 2013 #12
I sure hope somebody comes up with a very stronge CCS program. Archaic May 2013 #22
Read it, and will await the 2nd article Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #14
Wind is the fastest growing in terms of percentage. It's insignificant, before and after. wtmusic May 2013 #16
See below. Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #17
2012: 100GW total global PV -- By 2018 Additional 220GW only rooftop to be added kristopher May 2013 #19
I'm aware of that, but am skeptical. Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #20
Solar HAS come down to a level where it is competitive kristopher May 2013 #21
A number of 100mw to 300mw solar pv plants will be built over the next 18 months- in the US. FogerRox May 2013 #27
Wind is "cheap" because of the production tax credit wtmusic May 2013 #23
As regards CO2, Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #24
No, not terrible. Natgas generates about 60% as much CO2 as coal wtmusic May 2013 #25
I think people deliberately spreading known misinformation like this should be banned from EE kristopher May 2013 #26
Are utilities required to buy the cheapest power? FogerRox May 2013 #28
No, that is when they turn of fossil fuels and use wind instead. kristopher May 2013 #29
Interesting, but you do realize, I hope, that a backup is always going to be necessary. Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #31
Your meaning isn't clear, but I think the IEEE article is. kristopher May 2013 #32
Neither agree nor disagree Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #30
You seem to be studiously avoiding the subject of the production tax credit wtmusic May 2013 #33
Not sure where you're coming from, Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #34
Ah, the credit is only temporary. wtmusic May 2013 #35
...and it will never store more energy ever in all eternity, right? Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #36
We don't have all eternity. wtmusic May 2013 #37
Risk management Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #38
Based on your analogy, you would support an immediate evacuation of Wyoming. wtmusic May 2013 #39
You're not getting it Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #41
Renewables do nothing about fossil fuel usage 4dsc May 2013 #40
See below Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #42
But on the other hand... GliderGuider May 2013 #43
I see your hand and raise you... Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #44
A dropping % indicates a linear rise in concentration... GliderGuider May 2013 #45
True, but as I tried to point out, that's the dog that's not barking Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #47
China took in our washing - that took care of part of it. nt GliderGuider May 2013 #48
Maybe the linear CO2 concentration growth trend is coincidental? Socialistlemur May 2013 #49
Plants are known to grow better at greater CO2 concentrations, Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #50
After further review CO2 increase is constrained by ocean Socialistlemur May 2013 #52
I've been wanting to test whether the seasonal variability is in fact increasing, Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #59
In PPM terms there is a slight uptrend in variability Benton D Struckcheon Jun 2013 #60
Renewables are not a substitute for oil 4dsc May 2013 #51
Same thing: as oil supplies dwindle prices increase..renewables kick in Socialistlemur May 2013 #53
You miss the whole point 4dsc May 2013 #54
You would have to show why solar wont do the job eventually Socialistlemur May 2013 #55
There's this little problem about nighttime, and when the wind dies. wtmusic May 2013 #56
I think you mean the wind power industry? Socialistlemur May 2013 #57
Natural gas peaking plants fill in the gaps when solar and wind aren't working wtmusic May 2013 #58
My energy utility blew up an adjacent neighborhood about 2 years ago CreekDog May 2013 #46
 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
1. I very much want to hear from those at DU who repeatedly claim that this profile is wrong.
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:11 PM
May 2013

We often hear that renewables are well on their way to 100% replacement of fossil fuels and nuclear.

Where's the data?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
4. This study of predictions shows your sources are the least reliable of all available.
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:27 PM
May 2013

Last edited Thu May 23, 2013, 06:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Conventional Wisdom About Clean Energy Is Still Way Out of Date

“It’s not 1990 anymore.”


CHRIS NELDER: MAY 9, 2013

"We're fifteen to twenty years out of date in how we think about renewables," said Dr. Eric Martinot to an audience at the first Pathways to 100% Renewables Conference held April 16 in San Francisco. "It's not 1990 anymore."

Dr. Martinot and his team recently compiled their 2013 Renewables Global Futures report from two years of research in which they conducted interviews with 170 experts and policymakers from fifteen countries, including local city officials and stakeholders from more than twenty cities. They also reviewed more than 50 recently published scenarios by credible international organizations, energy companies, and research institutes, along with government policy targets for renewable energy, and various corporate reports and energy literature.

The report observes that "[t]he history of energy scenarios is full of similar projections for renewable energy that proved too low by a factor of 10, or were achieved a decade earlier than expected." For example, the International Energy Agency's 2000 estimate for wind power in 2010 was 34 gigawatts, while the actual level was 200 gigawatts. The World Bank's 1996 estimate for China was 9 gigawatts of wind and 0.5 gigawatts for solar PV by 2020, but by 2011 the country had already achieved 62 gigawatts of wind and 3 gigawatts of PV.

Dr. Martinot's conclusion from this exhaustive survey? "The conservative scenarios are simply no longer credible."

There is now a yawning gap between "conservative" scenarios and more optimistic ones, as illustrated in this chart contrasting scenarios published in 2012 by entities like the IEA and ExxonMobil with those offered by groups like the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (an international scientific policy research organization), Greenpeace, and the World Wildlife Fund...


http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/conventional-wisdom-about-clean-energy-is-way-out-of-date?utm_source=Solar&utm_medium=Picture&utm_campaign=GTMDaily

There is a lot of negativity on this board and a great deal of it is aimed at the timetable for deploying renewables. The study in the OP confirms my own research on this topic - research that forms the basis for my outlook on what is coming down the pike for our energy future.

The thoughts I share on the our energy future are often termed "overly optimistic" (to use the most polite phrase), and inevitably the person holding that view will buttresses their argument with the IEA or EIA numbers. I hope this post gives some food for thought for those who misuse the word Cornucopian to let me know they think I'm being unrealistic. One particular poster, in fact, just loves to use the EIA, BP and IEA numbers to create graphs reflecting his feelings of gloom and despair.

Let's recap the numbers above:
..."projections for renewable energy that proved too low by a factor of 10, or were achieved a decade earlier than expected"

in 2000 International Energy Agency saysin 2010 wind power will be at 34 gigawatts;
actual level was 200 gigawatts.

1996 World Bank estimate for China by 2020:
9 gigawatts of wind and 0.5 gigawatts for solar PV
China in 2011 has 62 gigawatts of wind and 3 gigawatts of PV (and they are just getting started - k)

10 years ahead of schedule and wind is 7X+ while solar is 6X. How much do you think they will exceed World Bank predictions by the time 2020 actually gets here?


So when you look at charts like this:


Or tables like this:


Remember who has a record of poor predictions. That isn't saying we are going to address this threat as fast as we need to, but at least let's start the discussion about what we are going to do with a realistic eye on what is good analysis and what isn't.
 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
3. The Original Post Reality Check
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:23 PM
May 2013

Sources referenced in the OP include:

The IEA (International Energy Agency):

The Energy Watch Group (EWG), a coalition of scientists and politicians which analyses official energy industry predictions, claims that the IEA has had an institutional bias towards traditional energy sources and has been using "misleading data" to undermine the case for renewable energy, such as wind and solar. A 2008 EWG report compares IEA projections about the growth of wind power capacity and finds that it has consistently underestimated the amount of energy the wind power industry can deliver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Energy_Agency


BP (British Petroleum)




EIA (Energy Information Administration)

The documents, obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request, expose several errors in the Energy Information Agency's weekly oil report, including one in September that was large enough to cause a jump in oil prices, and a litany of problems with its data collection, including the use of ancient technology and out-of-date methodology, that make it nearly impossible for staff to detect errors. A weak security system also leaves the data open to being hacked or leaked, the documents show.

Moreover, problems with EIA data underscore the hazards of depending on companies or other firms to self-report data.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703523204575130141392493862.html


Exxon



 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
7. Nah. I posted a comment about "their" data, too
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:37 PM
May 2013

...problems with EIA data underscore the hazards of depending on companies or other firms to self-report data.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703523204575130141392493862.html

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
9. What's your point?
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:50 PM
May 2013

Perhaps they over-reported wind's contribution. You have nothing to back it up.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
8. Written by the president of an "alternative energy" company who stands to profit immensely
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:49 PM
May 2013

"Rudolf Rechsteiner is the president of ADEV Energy Group (http://www.adev.ch), an Independent Power Producer Cooperative, founded in 1985, with solar, hydro, wind and combined heat and power plants organized in public companies."

Company Description: Headquartered in Bargteheide (Germany), Nord has been developing, manufacturing and distributing drive technology since 1965. The company employs around 2,500 people worldwide, in more than 60 locations. The technical sophistication of both the mechanical and the electronic components has earned Nord a leading position in the drive industry worldwide. Gross sales totalled 315 million Euros in 2007. Nord's helical inline, helical parallel-shaft, helical-bevel, worm, and planetary gear units, with friction disc or V-belt speed variation, deliver torques from 10 to 200,000 Nm. Nord motors with outputs from 0.12 to 200 kW range from IEC standard types to highly dynamic synchronous servo motors. Frequency inverters and digital servo controllers complement the portfolio. Nord also supplies compact units integrating mechanical drive components and power electronics, like geared motors with motor-mounted frequency inverters."

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/ADEWAL:SW

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
11. Really now. Is a photo of fat Rex Tillerson supposed to prove something?
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:53 PM
May 2013

You've set the bar for evidence fairly low.

 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
13. First off, that isn't Tillerson.
Thu May 23, 2013, 06:24 PM
May 2013

It's Lee Raymond. And calling Mr. Raymond "fat" is "fairly low".

An apology is probably in order, though not as though Lee cares.



Archaic

(273 posts)
10. I will admit that I haven't read the article.
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:51 PM
May 2013

But I will throw out there that there are a good number of coal fired plants that are going to shut down way earlier in the USA than people expected.

I know of one that looks like it's going to lose the fuel supply that was inexpensive enough to keep it online. Basically the locals are blocking further blasting for coal. If they have to bring it in from further, it'll close.

I know of another one that was almost shut down because of a state regulation change that if it had passed, would have made it financially impossible to operate.

And I know of a 3rd nearby that has had one of its units down for unscheduled maintenance like 4 times in the last 12 months. At some point it'll be too expensive to run it, and would allow that company to improve their mandated fossil/renewable mandate ratio. Some of the coal companies want to get rid of a lot of union folks too, and if they close the older unionized plants to comply with the big bad government, and fire workers very publicly, it'll serve their purpose of unloading union folks as well.

So some things are happening on the other side of that ratio, not just the uptick in usage of the good stuff.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
12. The graph forecasts a drop in coal use (by percentage)
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:58 PM
May 2013

The point is that renewables are still not going to displace enough of the bad stuff, including oil and natural gas.

Archaic

(273 posts)
22. I sure hope somebody comes up with a very stronge CCS program.
Fri May 24, 2013, 01:42 AM
May 2013

The ones I've read about seem to be hiding the dirt under the rug, with no promise that a seismic event or engineering mistake wouldn't lead to a full expulsion of the carbon that they've buried.

As long as there's a profit motive to not spend money to resolve this by the pollution generators, we're never going to really begin to resolve this problem.

Every utility points upwind and says why should I clean up when the one over there gets to pollute? And the one furthest upwind gets to point across the ocean and blame the next country over, and therefore never start the process.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
14. Read it, and will await the 2nd article
Thu May 23, 2013, 06:37 PM
May 2013

The assumptions are seriously outdated. I've already put up a thread (right in this group, so it will be very easy to find) that shows two things, using only the figures published by the EIA:

1 - Currently, the fastest growing sources of energy are both "green": natural gas and wind.
2 - The reason has to do with cost: both are the lowest cost choices in their respective classes: dispatchable and not (basically boils down to renewable and not.) Wind, by the way, is lower cost than coal.

Given these two publicly available facts, it's easy to project that both of these will be the choices for the future. Wind, by the way, already produces a lot more electricity than oil. Its single year growth almost matches what is generated by oil.
The article doesn't address the very simple fact that utilities will always opt, in the aggregate, for the lowest cost alternatives. It's called capitalism.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
16. Wind is the fastest growing in terms of percentage. It's insignificant, before and after.
Thu May 23, 2013, 07:17 PM
May 2013

"I've put up many threads that refute your points. They're all right in this group...easy to find....publicly available...all you have to do is my referencing for me!"

Bzzzt. Wrong.

Links please.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
17. See below.
Thu May 23, 2013, 07:55 PM
May 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112743388

This is what is known as a "checkable": a publicly available source that will give you a baseline (in this case, a couple of baselines) from which you can then argue.
All I said there and all I'm saying now is this: among the dispatchable sources of energy, natural gas is growing the fastest. Under non-dispatchable (renewables) wind is growing the fastest. Note as well that both coal and oil use has declined, oil to such an extent that it's no longer a significant source of energy generation.
I will add to that this: wind's growth is anomalous among the renewables. Hydro, geothermal are flat, and solar does fit your obviously biased description of fastest growing in terms of percentage but insignificant. Wind is neither. In percentage terms its behind solar, but as I noted in that thread, its single year growth is more than the entire accumulated production of electricity under solar according to the EIA.
Solar is lagging for the simple reason it's expensive. Wind is growing rapidly and is on the cusp of becoming a truly significant source of energy because it's cheap.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
19. 2012: 100GW total global PV -- By 2018 Additional 220GW only rooftop to be added
Thu May 23, 2013, 08:35 PM
May 2013

Utility scale is additional.

Originally posted: http://www.democraticunderground.com/112743370


Report Anticipates 220 New Gigawatts of Distributed Solar Generation by 2018
By Chris Meehan
May 6, 2013



A recent Navigant Research report anticipates that the world will add 220 new gigawatts of distributed solar photovoltaics by 2018 as solar comes into parity with other energy sources, creating $540.3 billion in revenue in the process. That’s a significant jump in the amount of solar that is currently installed throughout world, which the European Photovoltaic Industry Association (EPIA) said reached 100 gigawatts at the end of 2012.

In recent years, much of the growth in solar is attributable to the giant PV projects being installed to meet utility demand in certain markets. The Navigant report anticipates that just the distributed generation projects — or projects under 1 megawatt in size — being installed over the next five years will more than double the world’s total solar capacity that is now online.

...The report anticipates that the solar market is transitioning from one that relies on a financial and engineering model (based on the wants and needs of utilities to own or source electric generation from large projects) to a more diverse model. Under the emerging model, both the sources of generation and the ownership of the generation assets will be more diverse, include third-party financing from companies like SolarCity and SunRun and other new financing mechanisms. These changes will partly be driven by some of distributed solar’s advantages, which include generating electricity onsite to offset the need to build new transmission capacity while avoiding line losses, according to Navigant.

Navigant also finds that the growth will occur as both PV modules and the balance of systems costs (i.e., soft costs and other costs not related directly to the modules and inverter) continue to fall, driving the installed costs of PV to between $1.76 per watt to $2.74 per watt throughout the world. “At this price, solar PV will largely be at grid parity, without subsidies, in all but the least expensive retail electricity markets,” it says.

The report also notes ...

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2013/05/report-anticipates-220-new-gigawatts-of-distributed-solar-generation-by-2018?cmpid=SolarNL-Tuesday-May7-2013

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
20. I'm aware of that, but am skeptical.
Thu May 23, 2013, 08:50 PM
May 2013

Solar does appear to be coming down to a level where it's becoming competitive, but the fact utilities have not been opting for it at nearly the magnitude it has for wind is a large black mark against it IMO, because there is no more cost-sensitive buyer of generation assets than an electric utility.
So, for now, I'm taking a "show me" approach. In two or three years, when there's more data and more experience as solar is deployed on a large scale among residences, we'll see.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
21. Solar HAS come down to a level where it is competitive
Thu May 23, 2013, 09:05 PM
May 2013

China's entry into the market has completely changed to trajectory of deployment.
Even though US prices are still somewhat inflated by soft costs, the global market is already booming like nothing seen before.
And because a large part of the appeal is individual control of energy supply, I don't believe this is a commodity that can be judged by the utility model you are using - although utilities are also increasing their purchases in a big way.

I agree about wind, but suggest you review the solar landscape a little more closely.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
27. A number of 100mw to 300mw solar pv plants will be built over the next 18 months- in the US.
Fri May 24, 2013, 01:01 PM
May 2013

And as you mention the price is coming down, efficiency is going up- 38-40% for the newest products.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
23. Wind is "cheap" because of the production tax credit
Fri May 24, 2013, 02:20 AM
May 2013

which, due to expire in 2013, was the only reason the industry went on a $25 billion buying spree in 2012.

It's also wholly reliant on natural gas for backup, meaning it's not carbon-free and will never be.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
24. As regards CO2,
Fri May 24, 2013, 09:07 AM
May 2013

1 - Wind doesn't produce any except of course in the production, transport, and installation of the turbines themselves. Before you go into all the gnarly details of that, you have to remember that current technology is being rapidly improved upon as we debate, and obviously as the efficiency rises the carbon footprint, such as it is, will decline.
2 - Being backed by nat gas is not a terrible thing. Compare the carbon footprint of a coal-dependent power infrastructure such as we had until just recently to the combined carbon footprint of a wind-backed-by-nat-gas world. Vastly different.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
25. No, not terrible. Natgas generates about 60% as much CO2 as coal
Fri May 24, 2013, 10:34 AM
May 2013

when it's being used for load balancing (stopping and starting). But wind's capacity factor is only 35% in the best locations - gas is filling in 65% of the time.

So wind puts out a full 39% of the carbon coal does. You can't slice it any other way.

Now back to the "best locations" - wind is simply not viable everywhere. Even across the Great Plains it takes miles of additional transmission (not included in levelized calculations). That transmission makes wind cost 3x as much for offshore locations. All of these factors support the author's contention that renewables' chance of being a significant mitigant to climate change are "slim to none".

For a contemporary analogy, renewables advocates are like residents of Moore, OK seeking shelter from a tornado in a nylon tent (it may be the best nylon tent ever made, but it's still a freaking nylon tent).

Do you agree with the EIA's assessment that all non-hydro renewables will make up a paltry 15% of power generation by 2035? If not, why not?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
26. I think people deliberately spreading known misinformation like this should be banned from EE
Fri May 24, 2013, 11:20 AM
May 2013

Using this forum as a platform for disseminating misinformation and trolling is wrong. It is within the purview of the hosts to act on such behavior.


Doesn’t Wind Power Need Backup Generation? Isn’t More Fossil Fuel Burned with Wind Than Without, Due to Backup Requirements?

In a power system, it is necessary to maintain a continuous balance between production and consumption. System operators deploy controllable generation to follow the change in total demand, not the variation from a single generator or customer load. When wind is added to the system, the variability in the net load becomes the operating target for the system operator. It is not necessary and, indeed, it would be quite costly for grid operators to follow the variation in generation from a single generating plant or customer load.

“Backup” generating plants dedicated to wind plants — or to any other generation plant or load for that matter — are not required, and would actually be a poor and unnecessarily costly use of power-generation resources.

Regarding whether the addition of wind generation results in more combustion of fossil fuels, a wind-generated kilowatthour displaces a kilowatthour that would have been generated by another source—usually one that burns a fossil fuel. The wind-generated kilowatthour therefore avoids the fuel consumption and emissions associated with that fossil-fuel kilowatthour. The incremental reserves (spinning or nonspinning) required by wind’s variability and uncertainty, however, themselves consume fuel and release emissions, so the net savings are somewhat reduced. But what quantity of reserves is required? Numerous studies conducted to date—many of which have been summarized in previous wind - specific special issues of IEEE Power & Energy Magazine — have found that the reserves required by wind are only a small fraction of the aggregate wind generation and vary with the level of wind output. Generally, some of these reserves are spinning and some are nonspinning. The regulating and load-following plants could be forced to operate at a reduced level of efficiency, resulting in increased fuel consumption and increased emissions per unit of output.

A conservative example serves to illustrate the fuel-consumption and emissions impacts stemming from wind’s regulation requirements. Compare three situations:
1) a block of energy is provided by fossil-fueled plants;
2) the same block of energy is provided by wind plants that require no incremental reserves; and
3) the same block of energy is provided by wind plants that do have incremental reserve requirements. It is assumed that the average fleet fossil-fuel efficiency is unchanged between situations one and two. This might not be precisely correct, but a sophisticated operational simulation is required to address this issue quantitatively. In fact, this has been done in several studies, which bear out the general conclusions reached in this simple example.

In situation one, an amount of fuel is burned to produce the block of energy. In situation two, all of that fuel is saved and all of the associated emissions are avoided. In situation three, it is assumed that 3% of the fossil generation is needed to provide reserves, all of these reserves are spinning, and that this generation incurs a 25% efficiency penalty. The corresponding fuel consumption necessary to provide the needed reserves is then 4% of the fuel required to generate the entire block of energy. Hence, the actual fuel and emissions savings percentage in situation three relative to situation one is 96% rather than 100%. The great majority of initially estimated fuel savings does in fact occur, however, and the notion that wind’s variations would actually increase system fuel consumption does not withstand scrutiny.

A study conducted by the United Kingdom Energy Research Center (UKERC) supports this example. UKERC reviewed four studies that directly addressed whether there are greater CO2 emissions from adding wind generation due to increasing operating reserves and operating fossil-fuel plants at a reduced effi ciency level. The UKERC determined that the “efficiency penalty” was negligible to 7% for wind penetrations of up to 20%.


http://www.ieee-pes.org/images/pdf/open-access-milligan.pdf

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
28. Are utilities required to buy the cheapest power?
Fri May 24, 2013, 01:03 PM
May 2013

And if thats wind.... isnt it then nat gas that backs up the wind?

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
31. Interesting, but you do realize, I hope, that a backup is always going to be necessary.
Fri May 24, 2013, 02:16 PM
May 2013

No utility is ever going to go "all in" on any one way of generating electricity. Too risky, regardless of any efficiency considerations.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
32. Your meaning isn't clear, but I think the IEEE article is.
Fri May 24, 2013, 03:35 PM
May 2013

You can download it for free if you like. I'll guess that perhaps you have the impression someone is advocating a generating matrix of wind power only? If so, sorry for the confusion.
I'd need to know the time frame you are thinking in before saying more. If your thinking is set today, the issue of 'backup' should be looked at one way, by 2030 it will be another story and by 2050 another yet again. There is also geography and local resource availability to consider.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
30. Neither agree nor disagree
Fri May 24, 2013, 01:50 PM
May 2013

I don't know about the precise figure. I would say that, being a gov org, the EIA is going to be conservative. What they aren't going to take account of is not just increases in technological efficiency - I'm sure they have that factored in - but the market impact of the combination of increased efficiency + the downward pressure on fossil fuel prices.
That latter is the key.
The simple fact is, wind has already displaced oil. It will begin to displace the other fossil fuels starting now. No one is getting that.
This is what will happen: any mineral extraction, whether it be from mining or drilling, is undertaken because it is above breakeven by enough to make it worthwhile. If the price declines by enough, breakeven points disappear and mining/drilling stop. Then you get a weird effect: the price rises as supply disappears faster than demand. While this will stimulate more mining/drilling after a while that will then lower the price again, it will also make utilities think twice about using something where the price jumps around too much. Fossil fuel prices are already notoriously jumpy, and that's only going to get worse as pressure is exerted from renewables. That's what no one seems to get.
No businessman likes that kind of uncertainty, especially given that utilities are always running with high debt levels because of the capital intensity of the business. Meantime, continued efficiency improvements and wider adoption leading to lowered per-unit costs will continue to exert relentless downward pressure on the price of generation by wind, and possibly solar. Wind is going to be "dispatchable", too much is at stake for that not to happen, and all of the technology you need to make it so is already in existence, and large companies with very deep pockets like GE are working hard on it. Given this, it's pretty easy to project a "tipping point", where the only rational decision for a utility when looking to put in new capacity is to put in a relatively reliable - from a cost standpoint - renewable installation backed by a fossil fuel plant who's generation cost will be far more variable as it will depend on where in the cycle the price of that fossil fuel is. If wind turbines are already storing their output, then these plants will only be used in periods of high demand: heat waves or cold snaps.
Projections are linear. Markets aren't.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
33. You seem to be studiously avoiding the subject of the production tax credit
Fri May 24, 2013, 05:55 PM
May 2013

which is the really the only reason why wind's prices are as low as they are. As you said yourself, no businessman likes uncertainly - and when wind is dependent on government handouts it doesn't get much more uncertain:

"The wind energy industry is dependent on something even more unpredictable than wind: Congress. Hidden in the turmoil over the "fiscal cliff" compromise was a tax credit for wind energy.

Uncertainty over the credit had lingered long before the last-minute political push, causing the industry to put off further long-term planning. So while the now-approved tax credit revives prospects for an industry facing tens of thousands of layoffs, don't expect to see many new turbines coming up soon.

Growing Uncertainty

Mark Goodwin, head of developer Apex Wind Energy, says his company was "on pins and needles" over the "fiscal cliff" negotiations. It was worried about extension of the tax credit, which keeps wind energy prices competitive with electricity produced from fossil fuels."

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/03/168553495/wind-industry-secures-tax-credit-but-damage-may-be-done

Energy is everywhere. If you subsidize any number of technologies enough, you can squeeze energy out. But wind is costing taxpayers $12 billion/year and providing 2.3% of America's utility power, nearly all of it in Plains states with very little effect on prices east of the Mississippi.

You say wind is going to be "dispatchable" - how? In what possible respect could you guarantee that wind will be available at any time? Saying that there is "too much at stake for it not to happen" is just goofy, and where the whole renewable movement jumps the shark. The fact is, that there's a much better chance that despite increases in efficiency, in patching in windfarms from across the country, in occupying vast stretches of real estate with wires and batteries and switching systems and backup systems that the juice is just never going to be worth the squeeze.

Climate change is on us now, and we're playing games with toys.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
34. Not sure where you're coming from,
Fri May 24, 2013, 06:40 PM
May 2013

as I don't know your posting history, but I get the feeling pro-nuclear? Am I right?
Anyway, the credit is merely temporary, and if we compare it to what the USG does for, let's say, housing, or defense, which is a vastly expensive subsidy to make the non-economically viable parts of the country look like the ones that are, is ridiculously cheap. All it does is allow the per unit cost to come down. In another year or two it won't be needed at all. Not that it will be stopped at that point, but it won't be needed to allow the industry to continue growing. You're fighting human ingenuity, which is always a losing battle.
"Dispatchable" = battery storage. GE is already selling turbines with same. It increases the profit the operator of the turbine can make. Capitalism in action. Like I said, a losing battle on your part.
I'll address nuclear if I guessed right.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
35. Ah, the credit is only temporary.
Fri May 24, 2013, 08:45 PM
May 2013

That's what they were saying in 1992 when the goal was to "reduce average wind energy costs to 3 to 5 cents per kilowatt hour by 1995" (1995 came and went 18 years ago, and we're not significantly closer to that goal).

The PTC can be applied in two different ways, but it's most commonly used to take 2.2 cents off every kwh hour that's produced and bill it to American taxpayers. That has nothing to do with "allowing the cost per unit to come down", but artificially buoying up a sinking industry. Your contention that it "won't be needed in another year or two" is delusional, even by industry standards:

"Wind Power development in the United States has shown a great dependence on the PTC. The wind industry has experienced growth during the years leading up to the expiration of the PTC and a dramatic decrease in installed wind capacity in years where the PTC has lapsed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Wind_Energy_Policy

Now about this GE "dispatchable power" silliness: the battery in the GE Brilliant wind turbine is capable of storing 50kWh of electricity, or exactly 72 seconds of the turbine's max output. You're correct that it increases the profit the operator can make, but only as a clever marketing tool directed at tech-challenged greenies (this is the same marketing gyp Nissan used to sell the Nissan Leaf SL, the tiny solar panel on which attracted people innocent enough to think it would power anything more than the car's radio).

I've never fought ingenuity but gullibility, which is a far better-armed and tenacious foe.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
36. ...and it will never store more energy ever in all eternity, right?
Fri May 24, 2013, 09:05 PM
May 2013

And no one is working on improving it because it's completely utterly absolutely and totally impossible!!!

Sheesh.

Meantime, a list of costs per kilowatt hour for various technologies: http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:Cents_Per_Kilowatt-Hour
Note the text on wind: Wind is currently the only cost-effective alternative energy method
This is borne out by the evidence: as I noted earlier and you seem to be trying to draw attention away from, wind's adoption is advancing pretty rapidly, and it already qualifies as a statistically significant source of energy for the US, and has already knocked oil out of the running.
That didn't happen because it's a utopian dream. It happened because it's cost-effective. Solar gets a fat credit too, but its adoption is significantly below that of wind, and it remains, for the utilities at least, an insignificant rounding error despite the credit.
The credit can speed up adoption, but it can't force it. Adoption happens because the thing makes sense.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
37. We don't have all eternity.
Fri May 24, 2013, 10:40 PM
May 2013

We have a tiny, tiny slice of it to drastically reduce our carbon output, and the only thing significant about wind and solar is the attention they're drawing from energy sources that can make a difference - in time.

"As for wind and solar power...there is no hope that they can supply our energy needs. The only practical substitute for fossil fuels is nuclear power. In 1988 some 1.9 x 1012 kWh of electricity was generated by nuclear power stations. The same amount would be produced by burning 900 million tonnes of coal or 600 million tonnes of oil. In other words, the emission of 3000 million tonnes of carbon dioxide has been saved by using nuclear power, rather than coal. (While coal emits 850 tonnes of carbon dioxide per gigawatt hour, the figures for oil are 750, gas 500, nuclear 8, wind 7 and hydro 4.)

As countries switch to nuclear, their rate of carbon-dioxide emissions fall. Since 1970 France has halved its emissions, Japan (32% nuclear) has achieved a reduction of 20%, while the US (20% nuclear) has reduced it by only 6%. The emission of noxious gases like sulphur dioxide is also dramatically reduced by going nuclear.

If we are to stabilize the emission of carbon dioxide by the middle of the 21st century, we need to replace 2000 fossil-fuel power stations in the next 40 years, equivalent to a rate of one per week. Can we find 500 km2 each week to install 4000 windmills? Or perhaps we could cover 10 km2 of desert each week with solar panels and keep them clean? Tidal power can produce large amounts of energy, but can we find a new Severn estuary and build a barrage costing £9bn every five weeks?

Nuclear power, however, is a well tried and reliable source. At the height of new nuclear construction in the 1980s, an average of 23 new nuclear reactors were being built each year, with a peak of 43 in 1983. A construction rate of one per week is therefore practicable."

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/2001/jun/05/do-we-need-nuclear-power,2

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
38. Risk management
Sat May 25, 2013, 12:01 AM
May 2013

Nuclear will never be adopted in a large enough scale to make a diff because of it.
I don't know how much you know about trading, but if you do, you'll understand this: it's kinda like invention, or sports or anything else: 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. The 10% is the part where you figure out and put on the trade. The 90% is the time you spend mitigating the risk. The first rule is not to put on a trade with unlimited risk, such as selling options.
Chess masters, I have heard, approach moves the same way: first they see what advantage it will give them, and then they spend a large amount of time trying to figure out what can go wrong. Risk management.
Nuclear is like selling options: you get a nice steady income, until suddenly the inevitable something happens and you wind up with a disaster. Look up Victor Neiderhoffer on Wikipedia if you don't know what I'm talking about. He goes a few years making very nice money and then Boom! Gone. Nuclear is the same thing. You can't define the risk because it can come from any direction.
Coal is less risky than nuclear for the simple reason the risk can be quantified, and if it can be quantified it can be dealt with. Can't do that with nuclear. Its risk is undefined.
You keep approaching renewables like they're some utopian dream, but they're not. Their risks and inefficiencies are known, quantifiable, and therefore solveable. Nuclear is the utopianists' dream, not anything else, because to advocate it is to ignore the simple fact that real life is full of unknown unknowns.
Geologists only recently figured out Yellowstone is actually a gigantic volcano that may one day blow catastrophically. Or like the guy said in Men in Black: Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.
It's what you'll know tomorrow that's the killer.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
39. Based on your analogy, you would support an immediate evacuation of Wyoming.
Sat May 25, 2013, 01:23 AM
May 2013

Worse than inadequate risk management is that based on inaccurate assumptions.

#1 Which do you consider the worst disaster?

1) An accident where which makes hundreds of miles off access for decades which ultimately results in the deaths of ~400 people;

2) A technology which kills 50,000 people every year;

3) A technology on which people rely, but which ultimate proves fruitless at preventing the deaths of at least a billion people?

#2 What caused the Fukushima Daichi disaster?

1) An immature, accident-prone technology;

2) Carelessness of scientists and politicans;

3) A freakish earthquake which happens once every 1,500 years?

I ask these questions because they strike at the heart at the faulty assumptions behind your argument. They keep coming: "coal is less risky than nuclear" (per kWh, nuclear is the safest form of baseload energy generation by far), "the risk of nuclear is undefined" (nuclear is safe exactly because of careful risk management), and "the risk of nuclear is unlimited". All false.

Since Fukushima Daichi over 30,000 Americans have lost their lives from the effects of coal smoke, yet it's not front page news for the simple reason that it doesn't cater to peoples' fears. It's not spooky enough, like radiation or tornados, yet it's thousands of times more dangerous. As is skin cancer, from radiation from the sun. Should we not be making policy decisions based on real dangers vs. those which are perceived? On those which are scientifically justified, vs. those which are founded on myths spread by Greenpeace and other groups which thrive upon the hysteria of an uneducated public?

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
41. You're not getting it
Sat May 25, 2013, 10:42 AM
May 2013

There's a reason it's spooky & scary: it's undefined. If you can't define the risk you can't mitigate it.
The flaw is in the sentence "once every 1,500 years". That may be the overall rate of some random event, but random events don't sit there with their hands folded waiting for 1,500 years just because some probability model says so. They tend to cluster because, well, they're random.
Secondly, the thing you're not getting is that an undefined risk is just that. You have no idea, and neither does anyone else, when the next one will happen or how many people it will affect or how large an area will be rendered uninhabitable when it does.
The general public's fear may look irrational to you but it's not. Your response is that of a typical utopianist. The real world doesn't fit neat probability models in much the same way the real world doesn't fit the good/evil worldviews of Christians waiting for the end of days or Marxists waiting for the revolution.

 

4dsc

(5,787 posts)
40. Renewables do nothing about fossil fuel usage
Sat May 25, 2013, 08:49 AM
May 2013

Now lets see any graph that shows renewables and how they will replace fossil fuel usage.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
42. See below
Sat May 25, 2013, 10:59 AM
May 2013


Blue line is electricity production. Orange line is fossil fuels used in that production. Took the EIA figures, and made 1999 the baseline. Already happening.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
43. But on the other hand...
Sat May 25, 2013, 03:44 PM
May 2013


Renewables have as yet made no impact at all on the carbon emissions of global primary energy usage. That's both because the proportional contribution of new sources like wind and PV is still very small, and also because their contribution has so far been additive rather than displacing fossil sources. That last factor - the additive nature of new energy sources - is the one that worries me the most on the global level where climate change happens.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
44. I see your hand and raise you...
Sat May 25, 2013, 09:04 PM
May 2013


The top chart is the percent annual change in AGGI: the Annual Greenhouse Gas Index. The bottom one is the percent annual change in CO2. (Source: http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/aggi/)
Both have been trending lower. The sharp drop occurs around 1990 and has to do, in AGGI's case, mostly with the Montreal Protocol, which banned CFCs for refrigeration; these gases were powerful greenhouse gases in their own right. The one for CO2 I'm guessing happened because of the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, which shuttered a vast number of inefficient factories and power plants.
The creep lower since that time in both cases would have mostly to do with increasing efficiency and conservation measures, although in both Europe's and the US's case there's been a switch to lower carbon sources, renewables in Europe's case, natural gas mostly in the case of the US, although renewables are starting to have an effect as I showed above. Note also if you look at the source link you'll see that methane has been flat for a long time, so obviously there's been improvement there, mostly probably due to much less flaring off of natural gas and probably some due to plugging leaks in natural gas pipelines.
The industrialization of China probably is what's kept that graph you published from getting any better, but China has made quite a bit of progress itself even as it continues to grow. The fact the graphs I'm showing here don't show any spike in either case since China started to industrialize is a tribute to what they've done, if you think about it. It's just that there's a lot of them, and you can't blame them for wanting a better standard of living.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
45. A dropping % indicates a linear rise in concentration...
Sat May 25, 2013, 10:25 PM
May 2013

As shown from the same data set:



You shouldn't put your faith in dropping percentages. That's a linear trend line on the graph, with as tight a fit as you could ask for. The CO2-equivalent has been rising by a steady 2.8 ppm/year for the last 21 years.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
47. True, but as I tried to point out, that's the dog that's not barking
Sun May 26, 2013, 01:01 AM
May 2013

China should have caused a spike, but it didn't. One billion people industrialize, but the nominal trend you have in that graph stayed steady. No one would have predicted such a thing. I think there's a lot of information in what didn't happen.

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
49. Maybe the linear CO2 concentration growth trend is coincidental?
Sun May 26, 2013, 05:49 AM
May 2013

I ca see many factors influencing the CO2 concentration rise over time. There are factors influencing overall emissions, but I also wonder if there may not be a driving force in the system which caps growth. That is, is it possible CO2 spikes may be dampened by absorption into sea water or sequestration as carbonate or maybe we are just getting more phytoplankton growth because we also dump too much nitrogen in the water? I got the feeling we are not getting a clear picture of the full dynamic CO2-carbonate-organic carbon cycle. And this is why surface temperatures are holding steady, something earlier weather models failed to predict.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
50. Plants are known to grow better at greater CO2 concentrations,
Sun May 26, 2013, 10:36 AM
May 2013

so maybe that's part of it. Gore said in his movie that if you looked at the seasonal variation in CO2 this was getting more pronounced, which is what you'd expect if plants were growing faster. I haven't looked at the amplitude of the seasonal variations, so I don't know. Seems logical, but you always have to check your logic against the facts.

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
52. After further review CO2 increase is constrained by ocean
Mon May 27, 2013, 10:26 AM
May 2013

I don't think it's plants because we have deforestation to consider. But it may be the CO2 is absorbed by ocean water and mixing takes place to drive it down to deep layers. If we couple this sink to sinking phytoplankton due to excess nitrogenation we got a huge CO2 sink. Need to take cores of the upper 10 cm of sea floor and check its carbon content. If its falling in an anoxic environment the models the IPCC uses need to be modified to include this effect.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
59. I've been wanting to test whether the seasonal variability is in fact increasing,
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 12:28 PM
Jun 2013

which would indicate a greater capacity to absorb CO2 from either your supposition or plants. The data don't seem to support that:



This is year over year variability as measured by the percent diff between the low of the year for CO2 and the peak, from the weekly Mauna Loa readings, starting in 1975. Eyeballing this chart - you kinda have to strain your eyes - you get the feeling variability has been falling. To figure out if my eyes were deceiving me or not, I did a 5 year moving average of the figures:



This appears to show that the capacity for Earth to absorb CO2 has actually been declining over the years. Your point about deforestation may be one reason. If phytoplankton are doing anything, it doesn't look like it's enough to offset what's going into the atmosphere.
Anyway, not an encouraging chart.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
60. In PPM terms there is a slight uptrend in variability
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 02:00 PM
Jun 2013


Shoulda done this at the same time.
So, upshot is more variability in ppm terms, but not really enough to show it in percent terms, which means negligible statistically. Earth is not more effectively mitigating CO2 releases over the years.
 

4dsc

(5,787 posts)
51. Renewables are not a substitute for oil
Mon May 27, 2013, 09:10 AM
May 2013

Its true that oil production is going to head downward because of peak oil not renewables.

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
53. Same thing: as oil supplies dwindle prices increase..renewables kick in
Mon May 27, 2013, 11:46 AM
May 2013

It should be evident that renewables have to kick in or we are toast. The way I see it we have to cut population size as well. Oil isn't the only problem, we are filling te planet with our garbage. And we are running out of cheap phosphates.

 

4dsc

(5,787 posts)
54. You miss the whole point
Tue May 28, 2013, 06:44 PM
May 2013

Renewables are not a substitute for oil, period. We are an oil based society and solar and wind are not going to grease the wheels of technology that our economy is based upon.

Not to mention that renewable are dependent upon oil.

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
55. You would have to show why solar wont do the job eventually
Wed May 29, 2013, 06:24 AM
May 2013

I don't see a reason why solar wont do the job together with geothermal and wind. I'm not proposing soybeans and sugarcane. I think we need to avoid solutions which require fertilizers. And it's evident population will drop, plus it's going to take time. It's a self correcting system, and I don't believe in total system collapse. I'd worry more about the lack of iron in 300 years....

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
56. There's this little problem about nighttime, and when the wind dies.
Wed May 29, 2013, 10:45 AM
May 2013

It's actually a deal killer. But there's too much money to be made by the natural gas industry, which is more than happy to keep vague promises of "storage" afloat.

Biggest energy scam ever.

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
57. I think you mean the wind power industry?
Wed May 29, 2013, 11:40 AM
May 2013

Natural gas runs 24-7. I think you meant wind? What I have in mind is some sort of giant gizmo to make electricity in kazoo joules. Then take the electricity and use it to make hydrogen.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
58. Natural gas peaking plants fill in the gaps when solar and wind aren't working
Wed May 29, 2013, 11:45 AM
May 2013

and for the forseeable future converting solar/wind to hydrogen doesn't produce even close to enough energy to be a practical solution.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
46. My energy utility blew up an adjacent neighborhood about 2 years ago
Sat May 25, 2013, 11:22 PM
May 2013

I don't want them running any more nuclear generation --period.

They already made enough mistakes with Diablo Canyon to have ruled out having them run any nuclear generation anywhere, and that was well before San Bruno.

But forget it now.

I'm not supporting nuclear energy for a bunch of reasons, but locally, because my utility can't be trusted to run something that will blow up more than a neighborhood if they screw up.

Forget it.

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