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GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
Sun May 26, 2013, 11:23 PM May 2013

Energy to build it, energy to maintain it.

The industrial model of civilization requires steadily expanding energy consumption. From an overall perspective, it doesn't really matter where the energy comes from (fossil fuels, hydro, nuclear or renewables), so long as the thermodynamic imperative of increasing the entropy flow into the environment by increasing the exergy throughput of civilization is fulfilled. That's because the underlying driver of civilization is the simple, basic thermodynamic physics of open systems. Even if we get rid of both fossil fuels and nuclear power this framework will still operate.

This isn't necessarily the result of bad human decisions. The growth imperative that has been necessitated by the Second Law of Thermodynamics is the culprit here.

As civilization grows, it needs energy for two purposes: to maintain its cumulative asset base (all the stuff we've built so far); and to build new assets to support the expansion of population and activity levels.

According to Tim Garrett of the University of Utah, just supporting our accumulated asset base requires ~9.7 mW of power per 1990 constant dollar of cumulative GWP (cumulative over at least the last 2000 years). Only once that bar has been met can we devote energy to building out yet more assets. Below that level, presumably, we would fall into something that looks like John Michael Greer's "catabolic collapse".

Based on Tim Garrett's analysis, here is the situation since 1900. the graph shows the amount of energy spent on maintaining the existing asset base, and its reciprocal: the amount of energy that's left over to use in the growth of civilization. Notice that the "growth energy" has been falling since 1970:



If this assessment is correct, we risk falling into catabolic collapse before 2030 unless we can drastically increase the amount of energy we can generate increases substantially. Energy efficiency increases of a few percent aren't going to be enough.

You may be looking at the actual limits to growth.

A press release from the University of Utah talks about Garrett's findings.

And one last note: Despite all the publicity given to the idea, energy efficiency improvements alone cannot, over the long run, decrease energy use. That's because efficiency improvements simply increase the amount of work that can be performed by the same energy. As that work is translated into money, civilization keeps expanding. It's the Jevons Paradox operating at the level of our entire civilization.

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Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
1. Have to reduce population size
Mon May 27, 2013, 12:00 PM
May 2013

I wrote a couple of earlier posts in a renewables thread about te problem...I didn't see it this well focused but my conclusion always returns to population size. Has to go down a lot.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
3. A bit on my view of the role of thermodynamics
Mon May 27, 2013, 12:42 PM
May 2013

Last edited Mon May 27, 2013, 01:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Thermodynamics came into existence as a science in the early 1800s through the efforts of Carnot and Clausius to understand and improve steam engines. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is popularly understood to say, "Entropy always increases". While that is a pithy quote, it's not quite true. The overall entropy (disorder) of isolated systems always increases. However, the situation in open systems, especially ones that exhibit strong energy flows, is much more interesting. In such systems, self-organization appears as a matter of course. In inanimate systems, we see evidence of this in whirlpools, tornadoes and hurricanes.

Once this self-organizing principle was well recognized, scientists began asking whether life itself might be a product of the same thermodynamic process. The answer turned out to be yes.The idea that living organisms and ecosystems are products of the operation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics (in the presence of suitable conditions, of course) now has a significant and respectable scientific history going back at least 60 years. It is now generally accepted that 2LoT drives the autocatalytic processes that underpin all life. The topic has been deeply investigated by many top-notch scientists, including:

Erwin Schroedinger
Ilya Prigogine
Eric Scheider
James Kay
Eric Chaisson
Jeffrey Wicken
Ludwig von Bertalnnfy
Howard Odum
Alfred Lotka
Manfred Eigen
Robert Ulanowicz
Erich Jantsch
Manfred Eigen
Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen
Stuart Kauffman
Frank Lambert
Charles Lineweaver
Charles Hall

The self-organizing, autocatalytic quality of energy flows within both inanimate and living open systems has been well documented, as has the resulting entropy that is discharged into their surrounding environments. It is no longer a novel or controversial scientific concept that the operation of 2LoT is a necessary (if not sufficient) condition for the appearance, structure and behaviour of living things - including humans.

The speculative jump that I make beyond simple biology is to extend thermodynamic involvement out past these systems to the autocatalytic, self-organizing structure of human civilization. In effect I treat civilization as a meta-organism or abstract ecosystem that is formed and sustained by energy flows, just like its organic counterparts.

This isn't as big a jump as it might seem. Life emerged from the thermodynamic interplay of inanimate molecules, and in consequence is shaped by the same rules. Humans emerged during the development of life, with novel features that enhance our ability to detect, acquire, control and amplify energy sources. The things we have done in this pursuit include our use of fire, the development of agriculture, the development of energy-related technology ranging from the fire drill and water wheels to automobiles, nuclear reactors, 3D seismic imaging and Geiger counters. This technology has enabled the emergence of our global industrial civilization. All of it is built on the foundation of 2LoT.

To carry the extension a bit further, I see evidence of the very same autocatalytic processes in human culture that shape less abstract events. The emergence of hierarchy in corporations, for example, is foreshadowed by the hierarchic complexity of living systems like trees. Even human beings are structured hierarchically, with our neural, skeletal, muscular , circulatory, and digestive networks. Analogous systems in human culture include political, legal, corporate, communications and energy-distriution systems, all of which carry the hierarchic structure that is the hallmark of complex autocatalytic systems. This is completely understandable in the context of autocatalytic complex systems in general, where essential control feedbacks are made possible by their hierarchic structure.

It all comes home to roost in the concept of growth. The growth of inanimate systems like hurricanes are naturally limited by the energy they can extract from the environment they encounter. Living systems develop sensory, mobility and interpretive capabilities (e.g. eyes, noses, legs, fins, phototropism and neural nodes that become brains) in order to extend their search for life-sustaining energy through more distant space and time. This capability enhances survival by pushing out the limits . The main limits in the animal world involve the loss of food supplies, changes in the physical environment, predation, disease etc. In each case, the organism evolves the ability to defeat these limits to some degree, in the interest of individual and species survival.

Because of the high likelihood of encountering such limits, along with the limited ability of most organisms to overcome them, life has also developed the natural tendency towards over-reproduction as a survival strategy. From the "point of view" of 2LoT, this strategy enables more rapid and extensive processing of any energy available, with a higher probability of success. The processing also produces as much entropy as quickly possible, a requirement that satisfies the inherent order/disorder symmetry of 2LoT.

The interesting part of the problem arrived in the form of the human brain. From the thermodynamic point of view, its main function is to act as a limit-remover in the task of finding and using energy. Game runs too fast? Develop blinds, snares, spears, arrows and guns. Not enough food in the forest? Plant it ourselves in big open fields. Not enough firewood? Experiment with coal. People stealing the food? Invent the hierarchic concept of police. Need to travel farther and faster to get work in order to buy wood, coal and food? Invent cars, ships, trains, and airplanes. This is the "Vicious Circle Principle" described by Craig Dilworth in his book "Too Smart for Our Own Good".

The human brain is an exceptional limit-remover. It's not so good at enforcing limits however - especially when group-think and herding behaviour come into play. In situations where decisions are made by an aggregation of people, the decisions are almost always in favour of growth, and only very rarely in favour of any sort of limits to growth. This is exactly what I would expect from an organism that had evolved for growth and complexity in the service of destroying gradients as fast as possible, wherever they can be found, and turning them into exergy and entropy in the process.

Political and social systems resemble ecosystems because in effect, they are ecosystems. As a result they march to the same drummer and play by the same rules. We're about to find out the truth of that statement, as we encounter limits we can't defeat with brain-power.

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
5. I remember writing something about it in an evolution debate 25 years ago
Mon May 27, 2013, 01:38 PM
May 2013

I'm not as swift as some of you but I still think we can get over the hump with renewables if we reduce population size. I think we could go to geothermal energy investment as an escape hatch, the technology known as fracking seems to have application but the working fluids need better definition.

OnlinePoker

(5,727 posts)
8. To do this, you need to get people to stop having kids
Mon May 27, 2013, 02:52 PM
May 2013

Even China's 1 child policy hasn't worked. There are 400 million more Chinese now than when it was implemented in 1979. I was in Kuala Lumpur and Manila recently and every woman of birthing age seemed to have 3 or 4 kids trailing them. Religion is a major reason (one country is predominantly Muslim and the other is predominantly Catholic). India is even worse with their population expected to pass China's by 2025. Without a social safety net, people hope at least one of their brood will be successful enough to look after them in their old age and so keep having children and the cycle repeats generation after generation.

hunter

(38,328 posts)
12. Perversely I'm very left wing radical Catholic...
Mon May 27, 2013, 05:25 PM
May 2013

My parents and my wife's parents had a huge mob of kids before they decided birth control wasn't a bad idea.

My siblings, and my wife's siblings are averaging much less than two kids per couple. It's very likely we are done with reproduction and our parents will not see any more grandchildren.

Religious wedge issues do not move me.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
13. There’s a great deal of misinformation on this topic
Mon May 27, 2013, 07:07 PM
May 2013

Last edited Mon May 27, 2013, 07:44 PM - Edit history (2)

Here’s a chart of UN World Population figures.



Get the data here: http://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/unpp/panel_population.htm


http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/01/world_population_may_actually_start_declining_not_exploding.html

[font face=Serif][font size=5]About That Overpopulation Problem[/font]
[font size=4]Research suggests we may actually face a declining world population in the coming years.[/font]
By Jeff Wise|Posted Wednesday, Jan. 9, 2013, at 7:45 AM

[font size=3]The world’s seemingly relentless march toward overpopulation achieved a notable milestone in 2012: Somewhere on the planet, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates, the 7 billionth living person came into existence.

Lucky No. 7,000,000,000 probably celebrated his or her birthday sometime in March and added to a population that’s already stressing the planet’s limited supplies of food, energy, and clean water. Should this trend continue, as the Los Angeles Times noted in a five-part series marking the occasion, by midcentury, “living conditions are likely to be bleak for much of humanity.”

A somewhat more arcane milestone, meanwhile, generated no media coverage at all: It took humankind 13 years to add its 7 billionth. That’s longer than the 12 years it took to add the 6 billionth—the first time in human history that interval had grown. (The 2 billionth, 3 billionth, 4 billionth, and 5 billionth took 123, 33, 14, and 13 years, respectively.) In other words, the rate of global population growth has slowed. And it’s expected to keep slowing. Indeed, according to experts’ best estimates, the total population of Earth will stop growing within the lifespan of people alive today.



This is a counterintuitive notion in the United States, where we’ve heard often and loudly that world population growth is a perilous and perhaps unavoidable threat to our future as a species. But population decline is a very familiar concept in the rest of the developed world, where fertility has long since fallen far below the 2.1 live births per woman required to maintain population equilibrium. In Germany, the birthrate has sunk to just 1.36, worse even than its low-fertility neighbors Spain (1.48) and Italy (1.4). The way things are going, Western Europe as a whole will most likely shrink from 460 million to just 350 million by the end of the century. That’s not so bad compared with Russia and China, each of whose populations could fall by half. As you may not be surprised to learn, the Germans have coined a polysyllabic word for this quandary: Schrumpf-Gesellschaft, or “shrinking society.”

…[/font][/font]


Yes, that’s right. Population growth is slowing, and we can expect the world population to start to fall.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/01/11/overcrowding-nah-the-worlds-population-may-actually-be-declining/
[font face=Serif][font size=5]Overcrowding? Nah — the World’s Population May Actually Be Declining[/font]

By Rebecca Nelson Jan. 11, 2013

[font size=3]In the 1973 movie Soylent Green, the world had turned (spoiler alert!) to cannibalism to feed its billions of unwashed masses by 2022. But nine years before that milestone, it looks as if the world’s population could actually be starting to decline.

The number of people on the planet has grown exponentially in the past half-century alone, from 2.5 billion in 1950 to an estimated 7 billion in 2012, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. The world’s 7 billionth person, born sometime last March, elicited concern that we would run out of food and resources for everyone. An ever updating Census Bureau population clock shows the numbers rising.

People have worried about this since at least the 18th century, when British political economist Thomas Malthus first theorized that unchecked population growth would ultimately lead to starvation. China, so concerned about the drain of overpopulation on its resources, instituted a one-child policy in 1979, imposing heavy fines on parents who go over the limit.

But it turns out the world’s population isn’t growing nearly as fast as it once did. In fact, experts say the rate of population growth will continue to slow and that the total population will eventually — likely within our lifetimes — fall.

…[/font][/font]



http://thebreakthrough.org/index.php/programs/conservation-and-development/population-bomb-so-wrong/
[font face=Serif][font size=5]Population Bomb? So Wrong[/font]
[font size=4]How Electricity, Development, and TV Reduce Fertility[/font]

May 8, 2013 | Martin Lewis,

[font size=3] India’s declining fertility rate, now only slightly higher than that of the United States, is part of a global trend of lower population growth. Yet the media and many educated Americans have entirely missed this major development, instead sticking to erroneous perceptions about inexorable global population growth that continue to fuel panicked rhetoric about everything from environmental degradation and immigration to food and resource scarcity.

In a recent exercise, most of my students believed that India’s total fertility rate (TFR) was twice that of the United States. Many of my colleagues believed the same. In actuality, it is only 2.5, barely above the estimated U.S. rate of 2.1 in 2011, and essentially the replacement level. (A more more recent study http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323375204578270053387770718.html now pegs U.S. fertility at 1.93.) Still, from a global perspective, India and the United States fall in the same general fertility category, as can be seen in the map below.



In today’s world, high fertility rates are increasingly confined to tropical Africa. Birthrates in most so-called Third World countries have dropped precipitously, and some are now well below the replacement rate. Chile (1.85), Brazil (1.81), and Thailand (1.56) now have lower birthrates than France (2.0), Norway (1.95), and Sweden (1.98).

To be sure, moderately elevated fertility is still a problem in several densely populated countries of Asia and Latin America, such as the Philippines (3.1) and Guatemala (3.92).



…[/font][/font]

hunter

(38,328 posts)
4. I think it might be possible to bring this civilization in for a soft landing...
Mon May 27, 2013, 12:47 PM
May 2013

... but our current economic theory and practice has us in a graveyard spiral.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_spiral

We've probably got the instruments we need to successfully bring this airplane safely down on the river, but the cornucopian and anthropocentric faithful are paying no attention to the ecologists. They are flying by the seat of their pants and mocking those who have seen these curves before.

The concept that humans are nothing more than an innovative eukaryotic life form just like all the other eukaryotic life forms who have profoundly disrupted existing environments throughout earth's history is anathema to them. Mankind is the center of their universe. Unseen godly powers created this garden for us to exploit and it's inconceivable that we would be "allowed" to die like ordinary animals in the ordinary fashion, exponential growth followed by collapse.

At the last second, seeing the ground or ocean expanding rapidly in front of the windshield, they do not accept reality and will simply die for their faith.

It's a morbidly fascinating thing to watch... who needs horror films when we've got this reality?

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
6. What does the ground of ocean expand....etc....mean?
Mon May 27, 2013, 01:58 PM
May 2013

Are you really that worried about sea level increases? I see it as a minor issue when it comes to human race survival.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
7. I think hunter means that the airplane of civilization is crashing,
Mon May 27, 2013, 02:02 PM
May 2013

"seeing the ground or ocean expanding rapidly in front of the windshield" describes the view of the uncomprehending pilot as the plane plunges toward its doom.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
10. You reminded me of the two times I almost crashed while soaring
Mon May 27, 2013, 03:35 PM
May 2013

If things had gone just a little more wrong I'd have seen that view.

Experiences like those give me a huge respect for chaos theory. And for really thorough preflight checks, and checklists.

hunter

(38,328 posts)
11. Studying paleontology and ecology gave me a huge respect for chaos theory.
Mon May 27, 2013, 05:01 PM
May 2013

And beyond the chaos is a lot of random bad luck. Watch out for those big asteroids, comets, and giant volcanoes. Our earth is very small, the universe is very big. It doesn't care what we do.

Humans may be something novel, but the math always looks the same. We are the rock snot in the stream.

Doesn't matter if a species is doing calculus and statistics in a brain or by simple mindless chemistry. The goal is the same. Whenever the numbers stop working the population will crash.

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