Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumJames Hansen and the Three Categories of the Runaway Greenhouse

Its difficult to argue, given the current extreme and worsening state of the worlds climate, that blind Republican attempts to enforce dependence on BO would result in much in the way of US prosperity. It, essentially, would turn the entire North American Continent into a giant petro-state. It is possible that, for some years, the US will make some energy independence gains, possibly removing a larger fraction of imports from most states except Canada. But the loss of efficiency standards would do ongoing damage by increasing consumption of high-cost unconventional fuels, which would put a drag on the economy. The even greater drag would come from shackling US and North American economies to ever greater degrees to fuel sources, at best, that create a 6 to 1 energy return, where wind and solar could have supplied between 10 and 20 to 1 at ever-lower costs.
Worse still, is the fact that US and Canadian carbon emissions would go through the roof. Tar Sands, Coal, and Tight Shale Fracking are three horsemen of the apocalypse when it comes to climate change change (the fourth being fossil fuel company greed). Coal has always been the worst emitter. But both Tar Sands and Tight Shale Fracking are not far behind. The Republicans would have us depend on these, arguably vast, unconventional sources to the exclusion of all others. They wouldnt care one whit about capturing the carbon (costs too much and reduces the energy return on already low energy fuels). And, adding yet one more insult, they allow BO to export the fracking and tar sands technologies to other countries consigning them and the world to similar fates.
Total carbon emissions in 2012 (including non CO2 sources) was 45 gigatons. But on the path Republicans set, this level of emission will look minor. Peak emissions would probably pair with peak human civilization at some time around 2050 near 80-90 gigatons per year. At this point, emissions are put in check by mother natures outrage at our insults. By 2050, the burn everything strategy put in place by Republicans and enforced by conservatives around the world has resulted in near 600 ppm atmospheric CO2. Life in the oceans is in terminal collapse, major cities and island nations are being devoured by a combination of powerful storms and rising seas. The coastlines, for so long productive, have become unstable. And large regions of once fertile land are now being devoured by deserts. Water stress has caused entire countries to collapse. Mass migrations from both the coastlines and from desertified regions has already set in. Human population peaks at about this time near 10 billion.
By 2100, CO2 is at 1000 ppm and global temperatures are 7 degrees (Celsius) hotter. Fossil fuel based industry has emitted about 5,000 gigatons of carbon, enough to set off the stages for a mini runaway global warming scenario (Category 1). Sea levels have risen 12 feet and Earths population has been reduced to 6 billion. 40% of ocean species are extinct and 10% of land species have suffered the same fate. Summer time results in the emergence of large heat death zones experiencing wet bulb temperatures in excess of 35 degrees Celsius (hot enough to kill most large mammals, including humans, through heat stress alone). Even if all emissions ceased, global temperatures would still rise to around 12-14 degrees Celsius hotter than the Holocene. There is almost no chance, in this case, for human civilization to survive such an insult for more than another 50-100 years. And the chances for humans, long term, are dire indeed.
This is why I maintain that installing windmills and solar panels to provide marginal amounts of additional power doesn't - indeed can't - address the real problem. The real problem isn't actually Republicans or BO, or even politics, human greed or the moral evils of corporate capitalism. The problem is that the inherent growth imperative of our global techno-industrial civilization demands ever-greater energy production to both maintain what we've already built over the last few hundred years and to fuel a 3% annual growth in stuff-building.
Does anyone know of a realistic plan to help global civilization - from Beijing to Timbuktu by way of London and Washington - break its growth addiction?
Eddie Haskell
(1,628 posts)Just had breakfast with three friends ... None of whom believe that sea levels are rising. One said he's been swimming at the same shore for 30 years and the water's no higher. The real problem is convincing those who, when shown the data, refuse to accept it. They choose to believe the junk science presented by Fox News.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)Man is not so much sapient as self-deluding. Homo deludensis does not do uncomfortable facts.
hatrack
(64,889 posts)Homo stultus to homo ludens to homo ferox.
(All dependent, more or less, on external conditions and the availability of food, energy, education and lesisure).
Javaman
(65,711 posts)it's happening regardless of whether or not they believe it.
Their will be winners and losers in this gigantic mess we have put ourselves into and those who choose to ignore the warnings are predestining themselves to their own fate. (not that we, who know what's happening, really have all that much control over we happens to us)
I have given up a long time ago trying to fix stupid or convince stupid of the facts.
It serves no purpose other than driving yourself crazy.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...
phantom power
(25,966 posts)but wait, you said realistic.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)And that is unlikely. Peak oil groups have long maintain that use of fossil fuel will decline do to LACK OF FOSSIL FUEL before we get to deep in the hole on Global Warming. Shale oil is hard to mind and sooner or later becomes an energy sink (i.e, we have to install solar panels or Nuclear plants to convert the shale oil to conventional oil OR quit mining the stuff to be used as fuel for it would take more energy to obtain oil from most Shale Oil then the energy we get from the shale oil).
As to deep oil, those oil fields are quite small, average life span is just 18 months, it is expected to expand till 2017, then go into repaid decline. Coal production is also expected to peak within the next 30 years, so by 2050 restraints to global warming due to lack of fossil fuel to burn will prevent most of the above from happening.
http://www.apogeeprime.com/prime/extracts/release.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirsch_report
Now, economists reject the whole concept of Peak Oil, for to economists if you have a shortage of something, the price will go up till people are unwilling to pay and the shortage is gone (i.e. physical shortages are NOT economic shortages, price will be where demand and supply meet, even if that is higher then what 99% of the population can afford).
The geologists are the main force behind peak oil, for it is they job to find the oil and according to what they know (including where to look) peak oil either occurred in 2005 or will occur in 2015. At that point total oil production will decline and do so for about 140 years, then 99.99% of the oil will be gone. Peak oil is where 50% of all oil is gone, most of the first 50% of any product is the easy to obtain and use part of a product, the last 50% is much harder to obtain. Thus deep oil and shale oil is part of the 50% that is hard to obtain and thus costly.
Peak Coal and Natural Gas will also occur in the next 30 years. Given the nature of Natural Gas predictions of its peak is the least reliable, 2030 is the year the US Energy Information center gives for peak Natural gas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_gas#Russia
Natural gas production is considered the least reliable for oil is converted to natural Gas by the heat of the earth if the oil goes below about 20,000 feet, a level the oil industry could drill to in 1938. Natural Gas can be found as deep as 100,000 feet and wells that deep are a recent development.
Peak coal is even more complex, the US passed peaked coal IN TERM OF ENERGY FROM THE COAL in 1998, but has increased the amount of coal it has mined and can do so till 2150. The reason for this is the remaining coal is NOT as rich in energy as the coal mined up to now. The declining energy output from coal will lead to stoppage of its mining well before 2150, like other peak energy sources, once the energy to mine the material exceeds the energy one gets from what is being extracted, production tends to stop. i.e. you do NOT burn two tons of coal to mine out one ton of coal.
http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Report_Coal_10-07-2007ms.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_coal
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2007-05-21/peak-coal-sooner-you-think
Just a comment that worse case scenario for global warming may never occur, due to a lack of carbon based fossil fuel to leave that much carbon into the atmosphere. Global warming is still something we must fight for, but remember it is part of the energy usage in the World and thus peak oil and global warming are interconnected. One influences the other big time.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)I think more than ever now that global warming is the Boojum. If civilization insists on both maintaining its built-out asset base and building more (i.e. growing) we'll have to keep expanding our energy usage. If energy growth stops, the whole enterprise comes apart. So, I rather expect that the world will use every energy source it has available, down to or below an aggregate EROI of 5:1. We'll arbitrage energy sources against each other like crazy - especially so for liquid fuels that are critical to transportation. That effort will keep the carbon pouring out long after there is any energetic benefit being gained.
I used to think that Peak Oil would cause a global economic collapse that would cut our carbon output. I no longer think that will happen. I think we'll scramble every which way to keep the fires burning. It's what tool-monkeys do.
I now think global warming is going to get us, regardless of peak oil, gas or coal. I don't think there is any way to stop it. But hey, we'll keep on trying - that's also what tool-monkeys do.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)There is an old political observation, people will do everything else then what is needed (if what is needed is unpopular with a large segment of the population) till it is force to do so. In the case of Peak Energy, as long as other sources of energy are available, people will opt for those sources instead of making fundamental changes.
People will look to hybrids and electric cars instead of moving nearer work, people will opt for more pollution then to opt to have fruits only in season. etc,
People will opt for mopeds and bicycles only when they can no longer afford to operate an automobile. People will insist on the type of house they have at present, rather then abandon it to live closer to stores and work.
All this means in Global Warming and Peak Energy will work together to change society. As temperatures rise, we will want more Air Conditioning which requires more energy. The problem is energy will be harder to find, and sooner or later the option to buy will no longer exists for the price will be to high. Thus energy use will drop, as will carbon release. Then after 20-30 years you will see a drop in temperatures as the carbon is slowly absorbed.
Carbon is absorbed by the ocean at a fairly steady rate, absorption goes up as the amount of carbon increases in the atmosphere but these rates are way below the present release levels of carbon and that appears to have been the situation for centuries (Actual documentation is only from the 1960s when carbon measurements in the Atmosphere was first kept, but indirect measurements indicate that has been the case since the 1600s when the "Little Ice Age" "peaked" and you saw a slow increase in temperatures since the 1600s).
Side note: The "Little Ice Age" seems to peak during what is called the "Maunder Minimum" of 1645-1715. The "Maunder Minimum" seems to indicate less sun energy hitting the earth and thus a drop in temperture. An increase in temperature occurred afterward and accelerated since about 1830.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_Minimum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%B6rer_Minimum
The serve winter of 535 AD (That is the year, Justinian decided to reconquer Italy from the Goths who ended up in charge of Italy when the Western Empire Collapsed in the mid 400s).
More on the bad winter of 535 AD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_changes_of_535%E2%80%93536
More on Justinian's Italian Wars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(535%E2%80%93554)
List of bad climate events:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_environmental_events
OKIsItJustMe
(21,875 posts)We already have enough carbon in the atmosphere to take us over the safe 2°C of warming (which is probably not safe.)
happyslug
(14,779 posts)The Article at the start of this thread points out massive release of Carbon if present rates of fossil fuel usage continues. While it may while be that we will see the 2 degree Celsius increase, the article was pointing out even worse situation if we continue to burn fossil fuel at the rate we have been,
Please note: I use the term "Rate" in the sense of the INCREASE in usage over time, not the present constant rate of increase. Over time the increase is NOT a mere doubling over time by a squaring of the use. i.e. for example if we increase usage 10 times every 10 years, that does not mean in 20 years we increase use 20 times (10 times 2 decades), but instead 100 times (10 times 10). It is not 10 times every ten years. It is 10 times for the first 10 years, then 10 times THAT number for the next 10 years. This is what peak energy is telling us we can NOT do, we are hitting limits as to production of energy. We probably will hit the 2 degree mark, but not the greater marks mentioned in the article,
OKIsItJustMe
(21,875 posts)Remember Hansens earlier work, in which he suggested aiming for 350 ppm of CO[font size="1"]2[/font] in the atmosphere (as a start.)
http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.1126
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Avoiding the levels of emissions presented in this later paper is not sufficient.
OKIsItJustMe
(21,875 posts)Hansens actual paper is here:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1211/1211.4846.pdf
[font size=4]James Hansen, Makiko Sato, Gary Russell and Pushker Kharecha NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies and Columbia University Earth Institute, New York[/font]
[font size=3]
Most remaining fossil fuel carbon is in coal and unconventional oil and gas. Thus, it seems, humanity stands at a fork in the road. As conventional oil and gas are depleted, will we move to carbon-free energy and efficiency -- or to unconventional fossil fuels and coal? If fossil fuels were made to pay their costs to society, costs of pollution and climate change, carbon-free alternatives might supplant fossil fuels over a period of decades. However, if governments force the public to bear the external costs and even subsidize fossil fuels, carbon emissions are likely to continue to grow, with deleterious consequences for young people and future generations.
It seems implausible that humanity will not alter its energy course as consequences of burning all fossil fuels become clearer Yet strong evidence about the dangers of human-made climate change have so far had little effect. Whether governments continue to be so foolhardy as to allow or encourage development of all fossil fuels may determine the fate of humanity.[/font][/font]
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)Makiko Sato seems to have compiled comprehensive data regarding the real world path we're heading on, not fantasy, the reality.
CRH
(1,553 posts)bookmarked and recommended.