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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Tue Nov 5, 2013, 11:03 AM Nov 2013

Nuclear/shale oil hybrid system recommended for AGW solution by MIT Nuclear Science Dept

'Hybrid' nuclear plants could make a dent in carbon emissions
Combining nuclear with artificial geothermal, shale oil, or hydrogen production could help slow climate change, study shows.

David L. Chandler, MIT News Office

Many efforts to smooth out the variability of renewable energy sources — such as wind and solar power — have focused on batteries, which could fill gaps lasting hours or days.

But MIT’s Charles Forsberg has come up with a much more ambitious idea: He proposes marrying a nuclear powerplant with another energy system, which he argues could add up to much more than the sum of its parts. Forsberg, a research scientist in MIT’s Department of Nuclear Science and Engineering, describes the proposals in a paper published in the November issue of the journal Energy Policy.

<snip>

The paper outlines three concepts, which Forsberg says could have potential in the coming decades. They involve pairing a nuclear plant with an artificial geothermal storage system, a hydrogen production plant, or a shale-oil recovery operation.

The last of these ideas would locate a nuclear plant near a deposit of oil shale — a type of deposit, technically known as kerogen, that has not been used to date as a source of petroleum. Heated steam from a nuclear plant, in enclosed pipes, heats the shale; the resulting oil can be pumped out by conventional means.

<snip>


http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2013/hybrid-nuclear-plants-carbon-emissions-1105.html

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PamW

(1,825 posts)
2. EXACTLY!
Tue Nov 5, 2013, 03:54 PM
Nov 2013

You need heat to help extract heavy oil from shale.

That heat can come from nuclear power, or it can even come from solar power.

It's not stupid to use nuclear power, if it's not stupid to use solar power.

It's usually good to listen to the people that are actually doing things; rather than those who sit on the sidelines and prognosticate about what can / can not be done, all the while having ZERO expertise or credentials in the field in question.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

NickB79

(19,236 posts)
3. My point was, it's stupid to extract this oil ANY way
Tue Nov 5, 2013, 04:35 PM
Nov 2013

I don't want to see solar OR nuclear used for this endevour.

It's all stupidity.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
5. NuScale wins DOE funding for small modular nuclear reactor technology
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 08:38 AM
Dec 2013

NuScale wins DOE funding for small modular nuclear reactor technology

http://www.pennenergy.com/articles/pennenergy/2013/12/nuscale-wins-doe-funding-for-small-modular-nuclear-reactor-technology.html

NuScale Power, LLC has been selected as the winner of the second round of the U.S. Department of Energy’s (DOE) competitively-bid, cost-sharing program to develop nuclear small modular reactor (SMR) technology. As part of the award, NuScale will receive funding that will support the accelerated development of its NuScale Power Module™ SMR technology. DOE’s formal announcement about the selection was made Dec. 12 in Washington, D.C. NuScale and DOE will now move to negotiate a cooperative agreement that formalizes the public-private relationship and establishes milestones for the five-year funding program.

Earlier this year, DOE issued the Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) to provide support for SMR development, and move design certification forward to assist with commercialization. DOE’s FOA criteria focused on technologies that are unique and have innovative features that maximize resistance to hazards presented by natural phenomena. These features incorporate diverse and redundant safety systems including designed capabilities that aid in managing the consequences of severe accidents similar to the Fukushima events...

Originally post by NickB79
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112759933

NickB79

(19,236 posts)
8. Which shows that I'm consistent in what I say
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 01:27 PM
Dec 2013

My comment in the NuScale post (replying to bananas statement of their potential use to extract fossil fuels):

IF there is a future for nuclear power, I'd rather not see small reactors scattered to every corner of the planet like these could be used for as you pointed out. If we have decide to keep using some nuclear in the mix, a standardized, mass-produced design is a good idea, but there appear to be far too many risks to allowing such small modular designs to be widely distributed.


Thank you, kris.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
4. Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!
Tue Nov 5, 2013, 09:38 PM
Nov 2013

First, the use of solar by these facilities isn't being used as a justification for solar by anyone. No one is claiming we "need" solar because it makes extracting tar unconventional oil more cost effective.

Second, is the nature of the investments required. You can install solar for as little as $2 and in any amount desired after that up to billions of dollars. Walking away from the level of solar investment is easy for an operation such as is being discussed. Nuclear, on the other hand, requires a mammoth commitment of resources and would consequently work to 'lock in' its profit stream from the oil no matter the external consequences.

You really should stop trying to protect the nuclear industry. If your primary concern is climate change, the evidence is unequivocal that spending on nuclear power is counter-productive to our decarbonizing effort.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
6. Canada Considering Nuclear Reactors in Alberta Tar Sands Fields
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 12:13 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Mon Dec 23, 2013, 01:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Canada Considering Nuclear Reactors in Alberta Tar Sands Fields

By John Daly | Mon, 21 January 2013 22:42
Benefit From the Latest Energy Trends and Investment Opportunities before the mainstream media and investing public are aware they even exist. The Free Oilprice.com Energy Intelligence Report gives you this and much more. Click here to find out more.
Like them or hate them, Alberta, Canada’s tar sands deposits of bitumen or extremely heavy crude oil, are the world’s largest. The province’s resources include the Athabasca, Peace River and Cold Lake deposits in the McMurray Formation, which consist of a mixture of crude bitumen, a semi-solid form of crude oil, admixed with silica sand, clay minerals, and water.

According to the U.S. government’s Energy Information Administration, “Canada controls the third-largest amount of proven reserves in the world, after Saudi Arabia and Venezuela… Canada's proven oil reserve levels have been stagnant or slightly declining since 2003, when they increased by an order of magnitude after oil sands resources were deemed to be technically and economically recoverable. The oil sands now account for approximately 170 billion barrels, or 98 percent, of Canada's oil reserves.”

Lying under 54,000 square miles of forest and bogs, the bitumen tar sands are estimated to be comparable in magnitude to the world's total proven reserves of conventional petroleum.

But exploiting the tar sands comes at a significant environmental cost.

Oil sands pollution is not a topic that Ottawa is keen to publicize...

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Canada-Considering-Nuclear-Reactors-in-Alberta-Tar-Sands-Fields.html

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
7. Toshiba Nuclear Reactor For Oil Sands To Be Operational By 2020: Reports
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 01:21 PM
Dec 2013
Toshiba Nuclear Reactor For Oil Sands To Be Operational By 2020: Reports
The Huffington Post Canada | Posted: 01/18/2013 2:27 pm EST | Updated: 01/18/2013

Toshiba Corporation has developed a small nuclear reactor to power oilsands extraction in Alberta and hopes to have it operational by 2020, according to news reports from Japan.

The Daily Yomiuri reports Toshiba is building the reactor at the request of an unnamed oilsands company.

The reactor would generate between one per cent and 5 per cent as much energy as produced by a typical nuclear power plant, and would not need refueling for 30 years. It would be used to heat water in order to create the steam used to extract bitumen from the oil sands.

Toshiba has completed design work on the reactor and has filed for approval with the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Nikkei.com reported. The company is expected to seek approval from Canadian authorities as well...

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01/18/toshiba-oil-sands-reactor_n_2505738.html

caraher

(6,278 posts)
9. ugh
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 02:56 PM
Dec 2013

If you're gonna build nuclear reactors, at least don't use them to make everything worse pretty much on purpose...

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
10. A lot of nuclear proponents here attack me for pointing out...
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 03:17 PM
Dec 2013

...how much nuclear support overlaps with fossil fuel support, but it is a fact that has to be recognized when we're dealing with the role it will play in our culture.

Wouldn't you agree that the primary motive for support of nuclear power is energy security? What would anyone expect the consequences of that to be - action to limit or eradicate fossil fuels?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
11. A 2005 MIT Nuclear Science & Engineering Dept paper on nuclear for oil sands
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 04:13 PM
Dec 2013
Nuclear Technology & Canadian Oil Sands: Integration of Nuclear Power with In-Situ Oil Extraction
A.E. FINAN, K. MIU, A.C. KADAK
Massachusetts Institute of Technology Department of Nuclear Science and Engineering 77 Massachusetts Avenue, 24-105 Cambridge, MA 02139-4307

Abstract - This report analyzes the technical aspects and the economics of utilizing nuclear reactors to provide the energy needed for a Canadian oil sands extraction facility using Steam-Assisted Gravity Drainage (SAGD) technology. The energy from the nuclear reactor would replace the energy supplied by natural gas, which is currently burned at these facilities. There are a number of concerns surrounding the continued use of natural gas, including carbon dioxide emissions and increasing gas prices. Three scenarios for the use of the reactor are analyzed 1) using the reactor to produce only the steam needed for the SAGD process; (2) using the reactor to produce steam as well as electricity for the oil sands facility; and (3) using the reactor to produce steam, electricity, and hydrogen for upgrading the bitumen from the oil sands to syncrude, a material similar to conventional crude oil. Three reactor designs were down-selected from available options to meet the expected mission demands and siting requirements. These include the Canadian ACR- 700, Westinghouse’s AP 600 and the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor (PBMR). The report shows that nuclear energy would be feasible, practical, and economical for use at an oil sands facility. Nuclear energy is two to three times cheaper than natural gas for each of the three scenarios analyzed. Also, by using nuclear energy instead of natural gas, a plant producing 100,000 barrels of bitumen per day would prevent up to 100 megatonnes of CO2 per year from being released into the atmosphere.

http://web.mit.edu/pebble-bed/papers1_files/OilSands.pdf

Of course, that cost analysis was almost certainly based on the same fictional figures they gave the Dept of Energy in 2005 about how little the nuclear renaissance would cost.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
12. "World Nuclear Assoc. - Representing the people and organizations of the global nuclear profession"
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 12:00 AM
Dec 2013
Alberta Tar Sands
Nuclear Power in Canada Appendix 2

(Updated February 2010)
In Canada, notably northern Alberta, there is major production of synthetic crude oil from bitumen extracted from tar sands. Alberta's tar sands are one of the largest hydrocarbon deposits in the world. Production from them is expected to grow strongly, but may limited by the amount of greenhouse gases emitted during extraction and upgrading of the bitumen. Open pit strip mining remains the main extraction method, but two in situ techniques are likely to be used more in future: cyclic steam stimulation (CSS) and steam-assisted gravity drainage (SAGD). These methods inject steam into the formation to heat the bitumen, allowing it to flow and be pumped to the surface.

<snip>

Nuclear power could make steam and electricity and use some of the electricity for high-temperature electrolysis for hydrogen production. (Heavy water and oxygen could be valuable by-products of electrolysis.) The steam supply needs to be semi portable as tar sand extraction proceeds, so relatively small reactors which could be moved every decade or so may be needed. One problem related to the provision of steam for mining is that a nuclear plant is a long-life fixture, and mining of tar sands proceeds across the landscape, giving rise to very long steam transmission lines and consequent loss of efficiency.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-A-F/Appendices/Nuclear-Power-in-Canada-Appendix-2--Alberta-Tar-Sands/

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
13. "Embrace nuclear energy, Alberta: it’s the only way to lower oilsands GHGs"
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 11:27 PM
Dec 2013
Embrace nuclear energy, Alberta: it’s the only way to lower oilsands GHGs
April 5, 2013
By Steve Aplin

Alberta is panicking right now, fearing the worst when the U.S. makes its next decision on the Keystone Pipeline. If the new American secretary of state’s recent legislative past is an indicator, Keystone, which will carry Alberta bitumen to the U.S. gulf coast, will receive extra attention on the question of whether the proposed pipeline fits with the president’s stated climate change goals. After all, the most recent U.S. senate effort to reduce emissions of man-made carbon dioxide (CO2) was called the KGL Bill. The “K” stands for Kerry, as in John Kerry, who is now secretary of state. And the KGL Bill died an embarrassing death, in 2010. Will the new secretary of state use the Keystone issue to redress that failure, and help his boss keep an important—and so far unkept—environmental promise? Alberta worries he will.


Oil sands operation, Alberta Canada. This is Alberta’s
cash cow and hope for the future, but that future is bleak because
Alberta’s biggest customer, the United States of America, has
singled Alberta oil out as “dirty.” The only way Alberta can clean it
up is to use nuclear energy.


Alberta’s panic is underlined by the recent revelation that the province is considering upping its much touted and totally ineffectual $15 per ton “levy” on industrial CO2 to $40. This is the centrepiece of Alberta’s new climate goal: a 40 percent reduction in CO2.

Considering where most of Alberta’s CO2 emissions come from, a 40 percent reduction is huge. The two biggest category sources in Alberta’s official Greenhouse Gas inventory are power generation and the oil sands, which in 2008 emitted 55 million tons of CO2 and 41 million tons, respectively. (You can download Environment Canada’s National Inventory Report 1990-2008: Greenhouse Gas Sources and Sinks in Canada here; Alberta-specific information is on p. 118, or p. 119 of the PDF).

Alberta has been trying, in a PR kind of way, to reduce CO2 from power generation, which the province thinks is easier technologically than from the oil sands. This effort has focused mostly on carbon capture and sequestration, or CCS. Not surprisingly it has been a flop. The chemistry of the process is difficult: it involves separating CO2 from nitrogen (Alberta’s power plants are mostly coal-fired, and all use air, which is mostly nitrogen, as the source of combustion oxygen). That separation is inefficient and expensive.

The only ongoing CCS ...

http://canadianenergyissues.com/2013/04/05/embrace-nuclear-energy-alberta-its-the-only-way-to-lower-oilsands-ghgs/
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