Toyota's new Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car will be able to power a house

[nationalize the fed]

Last edited Thu Apr 17, 2014, 08:58 AM - Edit history (2)

CES 2014: Toyota shows off fuel cell car that can also power a home



...The automaker chose the big tech gathering to display the four-seater, which looks like a futuristic Prius, to highlight its advanced engineering. A fully-fueled vehicle will be able to supply enough energy to power a house for a week in an emergency, Toyota said. Its engineers are working on an adapter that will connect the car into a home’s electrical grid.

After debuting the concept car at the Tokyo Motor Show in November, Toyota plans to start selling the car in the United States next year. While it has yet to disclose pricing, the company said it has slashed the cost of bringing the car to market by tapping an electric powertrain it already uses on one of its hybrid vehicles and other common parts.

“Fuel cell electric vehicles will be in our future sooner than many people believe, and in much greater numbers than anyone expected,” said Bob Carter, senior vice president of automotive operations for Toyota’s U.S. sales arm.

Toyota is one of three companies pushing forward with fuel cell vehicle cars. Hyundai will start offering one later this year and Honda plans one next year.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-toyota-fcv-fuel-cell-ces-20140106,0,884109.story#ixzz2pjQ6pJWg

Is it dangerous to store hydrogen in a tank attached to a vehicle?

Fuel cell cars from Toyota, Honda, Hyundai set to debut at auto shows

..."Hydrogen is quite a dangerous gas," said Musk, who also runs SpaceX, the rocket company formally known as Space Exploration Technologies Corp. "It's suitable for the upper stage of rockets, but not for cars."

Not true, says Matt McClory, one of the principal engineers of the Toyota fuel cell vehicle. And he has a bullet to prove it. In safety tests, Toyota's engineers shot rifle bullets at its high-pressure hydrogen tanks to see if they would explode or catch fire.

"The smaller-caliber bullets would just bounce off the tank," McClory said. "It took a 50-caliber armor-piercing bullet to penetrate the tank, and it then just left a hole and the gas leaked out."

Hyundai has set its entire car ablaze without triggering an explosion. When the temperatures rise high enough, the hydrogen vents in a flair pattern through a pressure valve but burns off quickly...
more
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/nov/17/autos/la-fi-hy-fuel-cell-cars-20131117

Edit:

Hydrogen powered vehicle on the
left. Gasoline powered vehicle on the right
Photo 4 - Time: 1 min, 30 sec - Hydrogen flow almost finished.



From Fuel Leak Simulation
Dr. Michael R. Swain University of Miami
(PDF) https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/30535be.pdf

[CFLDem]

1. Well this will get squashed quickly.

Can't have the serfs become too independent...

[djean111]

2. I expect that soon we will have a "minimum electricity charge" for everyone, no matter

if one uses no electricity or a tiny amount.
Can't stop that gravy train.

[toby jo]

3. Really, they're no doubt working on who owns the sun.

Good they shot a bullet at that tank, this being America and all, couldn't have been a better test.

[Niceguy1]

5. according to the article

It would be for emergency use only plus you would need special switchh equipment to prevent backfeeding to the grid which can kill people.

[The CCC]

6. according to the article

Easily done. Every standby generator now has an automatic kill switch for when the electricity comes back on.

[NickB79]

8. Independent? You still have to buy hydrogen

And its a pretty safe bet it will cost more than grid electricity.

[nationalize the fed]

13. no, you don't

anyone can make hydrogen gas in their garage.

In this case, hydrogen is made using a mason jar, stainless steel pot scrubbers and a sock.

This guy makes it from solar energy, and gets ~400 mile range in a regular car

Honda Begins Experiments with Hydrogen Home Energy Station and Improves Solar-Cell Technology for Production of Hydrogen
http://world.honda.com/news/2003/c031002.html

[NickB79]

14. Again, none of that is free. You are still paying to make the hydrogen

Your first example uses up metallic scrub pads as an fuel source. You already got smacked down on that absurd idea of an "economical" source of hydrogen here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=68500

Your second example requires a person to buy not only solar panels, but also all the storage equipment needed to contain PRESSURIZED hydrogen, which is not cheap. It would be far, far more economical and energy-efficient to buy an electric car that could charge directly from those solar panels. A hydrogen vehicle using that setup would mean using solar electricity to generate hydrogen (losing efficiency here) that must then be pressurized (losing more efficiency here) and finally used in a fuel cell vehicle (losing even more efficiency here).

It's like the addege that says we could feed 10X as many people on this planet if, rather than growing crops to feed to cows to get beef, we instead just eat the crops directly.

Finally, your last example is basically a gas station that SELLS hydrogen.

Yes, anyone can make hydrogen in their garage. Sufficient quantities of USEABLE, energy-efficient hydrogen? Not so much. I could probably grow a banana tree up here in Minnesota too if I invested enough time, energy and money into a fancy heated greenhouse, but that doesn't mean it's somehow more cost-effective than buying a bunch at the local grocery store for 50 cents

[nationalize the fed]

16. Comprehension problem

Your first example uses up metallic scrub pads as an fuel source. You already got smacked down on that absurd idea of an "economical" source of hydrogen here:

From the thread:

mpsp (miles per scrub pad) is not the point
I'm not advocating creating hydrogen with aluminum or pot scrubbers.

The point of that post was to show that creating hydrogen gas does not require millions of dollars of equipment.

Any "smacking down" was imagined, by those who didn't understand the words in that thread.

It would be far, far more economical and energy-efficient to buy an electric car that could charge directly from those solar panels

Experts disagree

Better Than a Battery

'Since they're basically electric, it begs the question: Why not just drive a battery-electric vehicle? Ronald Grasman, general manager of U.S. fuel cell vehicle operations with Mercedes-Benz, explained the problems with EVs during the conference. "Battery vehicles are great," he said, "but they have their limitations when it comes to range and charging time. This is where fuel cell vehicles make a great difference."

In theory, a hydrogen car can beat a battery electric thanks to convenient and quick refueling, and a somewhat esoteric concept called "energy density." An EV requires long recharging times, and even with a big battery, the range of an EV is usually limited to 100 miles or so. However, hydrogen can be pumped into a tank similar to gasoline, and that tank full of hydrogen holds a lot more energy than a battery does. The upshot is that you can get zero emissions, the rough equivalent of gasoline-car range, but without the long wait of recharging, or the hassle of engineering a gigantic battery pack into the vehicle.
http://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/hydrogen-cars-close-to-reality/2000010655/

http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/10001_well_to_wheels_gge_petroleum_use.pdf



Batteries or Fuel Cells?
http://cleancaroptions.com/html/batteries_or_fuel_cells-.html

Different fuels have different levels of energy content and the above graph relates to energy released through combustion. The higher the energy content the higher the quality of the fuel, which is inversely proportional to its chemical complexity. High quality fuels are gases while low quality fuels are solids, with liquids in between...
https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch8en/conc8en/energycontent.html

battery only EV's lose up to 57% of their range in cold weather, and what happens to all these batteries that will sooner or later need to be replaced? And driving around 1,000 pounds of batteries costs how much efficiency?

Here's an answer to getting off oil, becoming energy self sufficient and doing this in an environmentally friendly way. And then some people say maybe we don't even need cars. Astounding.

The future is here and no amount of denial is going to change it.

[nationalize the fed]

4. Top Gear: The Car Tech for the Future

Last edited Thu May 8, 2014, 01:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Edit: Watch the review free at the Top Gear website:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/honda-clarity

Series 12 episode 07
(This episode features a test of the Tesla Roadster as well
Elon Musk tried to sue Top Gear after it aired)



James May with a Honda FCX Clarity

Jay Leno agrees:

[rafeh1]

7. look at this video

hydrogen cylinder fire accident


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=616891745057132

[nationalize the fed]

9. Toyota fires bullets into hydrogen fuel tanks

Toyota fires bullets into hydrogen fuel tanks, shoots down EV supporters

With some industry members and analysts questioning both the viability and durability of hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicles, Toyota executive Bob Carter, speaking at the Automotive News World Congress this week, says the Japanese automaker went all Clint Eastwood on the fuel tanks of a fuel-cell prototype. Carter says that bullets from a small-caliber gun bounced off the carbon-fiber tanks, and that .50-caliber bullets barely made dents...

"Personally, I don't care what Elon (Musk), Carlos (Ghosn) or Jonathan (Browning) say about fuel cells. If they want to 'plug in and tune out' other technologies, that's fine."
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/01/16/toyota-fires-bullets-hydrogen-fuel-tanks-shoots-ev-supporter/

[nationalize the fed]

10. The Geography of Transport Systems

Different fuels have different levels of energy content and the above graph relates to energy released through combustion. The higher the energy content the higher the quality of the fuel, which is inversely proportional to its chemical complexity. High quality fuels are gases while low quality fuels are solids, with liquids in between...
https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch8en/conc8en/energycontent.html

[nationalize the fed]

11. Shoot a Hydrogen tank, Gas & Propane Tanks

[nationalize the fed]

12. kick

You might be able to do this with a Tesla but you'd discharge the batteries. And don't let them fully discharge, or you'll have to replace the 1,000 pounds of lithium batteries at a cost of anywhere between $5 and $40,000. The Toyota would actually generate the electricity -as much as 100KW. Average KW consumption is ~30kwh/day

Remember that this power comes from a renewable source- Hydrogen- that can be made by anyone with access to electricity- from any source- with water as exhaust.

CES 2014: Toyota Wants Its Fuel Cells to Also Power Your Home in a Pinch



Toyota's CES press event yesterday was mainly dedicated to discussing the state of the carmaker's hydrogen fuel-cell program and the current state of hydrogen refueling infrastructure. But one particular aside tossed off by Toyota's senior vice president, Robert Carter, stood out. According to Carter, Toyota is also working on an external device that would allow a hydrogen fuel-cell car to charge a house for up to a week in case of an emergency.

The idea is not far-fetched. Between its fuel-cell program and the Prius, Toyota has invested heavily in battery R&D. According to Carter, Toyota's current fuel stacks, which combine oxygen and hydrogen to create water and electricity, can store up to 100 Kw of power. Considering that's the same amount of power in some commercial generators, powering your average house sounds feasible. In fact, it sounds kind of brilliant...
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/auto-blog/ces-2014-toyota-wants-its-fuel-cells-to-also-power-your-home-in-a-pinch-16353888

Honda Begins Experiments with Hydrogen Home Energy Station and Improves Solar-Cell Technology for Production of Hydrogen


http://world.honda.com/news/2003/c031002.html

[hunter]

15. First question: Do we need cars?

For most of us, who are not growing food away from dense population centers, I don't think so.

If I walk, bicycle, buy a random bus or train ticket, sailing or flying with friends, I can be anywhere.

I've been anywhere, across national borders too.

With a car or an airline ticket there's a license plate on my butt and another in my wallet.

Fascists love that. They know where I am.

I'm at home today and avoiding trouble.