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nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
Sun May 4, 2014, 12:47 PM May 2014

Desalination around the world- how other countries are making fresh water from the ocean

I posted this in a California Drought thread but thought it might be a worthy stand alone.

Existing facilities and facilities under construction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination#Existing_facilities_and_facilities_under_construction

Estimates vary widely between 15,000-20,000 desalination plants producing more than 20,000 m3/day around the world.

Algeria

Believed to have at least 15 desalination plants in operation
Arzew IWPP Power & Desalination Plant, Arzew
Cap Djinet Seawater Reverse Osmosis(SWRO) 100,000 m3/d
Tlemcen Souk Tleta 200,000 m3/day
Tlemcen Hounaine 200,000 m3/day
Beni Saf 200,000 m3/day
Tenes 200,000 m3/day
Fouka 120,000 m3/day
Skikda 100,000 m3/day
Hamma Seawater Desalination Plant 200,000 m3/day built by GE
Mostaganem, once considered the largest in Africa
Magtaa Reverse Osmosis (RO) Desalination Plant, Oran, Algeria

Aruba

The island of Aruba has a large (world’s largest at the time of its inauguration) desalination plant, with a total installed capacity of 11.1e6 US gallons (42,000 m3) per day.

Australia
Main article: Seawater desalination in Australia

In Australia many desalination plants are utilizing wind farms to produce enough energy to operate nearby desalination plants. For example, the Kurnell Desalination Plant, with a capacity of producing 250 million liters (ML) of drinking water per day, supplies 15% of Sydney’s water needs via RO technology and is powered using “100 percent renewable energy” from the 140 MW Capital Wind Farm.

The Garden Island plant, currently planned for commissioning in 2014, will be powered by wave energy, using Carnegie Wave Energy's CETO system. This system uses submerged buoys to pressurise water offshore, which is piped onshore to either drive turbines for electricity generation or as in this case, to directly desalinate seawater. The Garden Island project is a commercial scale demonstration project, which follows a pilot project off the coast of Fremantle, Western Australia

List of desalination plants in Australia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_desalination_plants_in_Australia

Sydney Desalination plant- Desalination plant of the year



Gold Coast Desalination Plant 125 megalitres



Perth Seawater Desalination Plant 130 megalitres
Wonthaggi Desalination Plant 410 megalitres



7 more operating now, more planned

Bahrain

Completed in 2000, the Al Hidd Desalination Plant on Muharraq island employed a multistage flash process, and produces 272,760 m3 (9,632,000 cu ft) per day. The Al Hidd distillate forwarding station provides 410 million liters of distillate water storage in a series of 45-million-liter steel tanks. A 135-million-liters/day forwarding pumping station sends flows to the Hidd, Muharraq, Hoora, Sanabis, and Seef blending stations, and which has an option for gravity supply for low flows to blending pumps and pumps which forward to Janusan, Budiya and Saar.

Upon completion of the third construction phase, the Durrat Al Bahrain seawater reverse osmosis (SWRO) desalination plant was planned to have a capacity of 36,000 cubic meters of potable water per day to serve the irrigation needs of the Durrat Al Bahrain development. The Bahrain-based utility company, Energy Central Co contracted to design, build and operate the plant.

Chile

Copiapó Desalination Plant

China

China operates the Beijing Desalination Plant in Tianjin, a combination desalination and coal-fired power plant designed to alleviate Tianjin's critical water shortage. Though the facility has the capacity to produce 200,000 cubic meters of potable water per day, it has never operated at more than one-quarter capacity due to difficulties with local utility companies and an inadequate local infrastructure.

Cyprus

A plant operates in Cyprus near the town of Larnaca. The Dhekelia Desalination Plant uses the reverse osmosis system.

Egypt

Dahab RO Desalination Plants Dahab 3,600 m3/day completed 1999
Hurgada and Sharm El-Sheikh Power and Desalination Plants
Oyoun Moussa Power and Desalination
Zaafarana Power and Desalination

Gibraltar

Fresh water in Gibraltar is supplied by a number of reverse osmosis and multistage flash desalination plants. A demonstration forward osmosis desalination plant also operates there.

Grand Cayman

West Bay, West Bay, Grand Cayman
Abel Castillo Water Works, Governor's Harbour, Grand Cayman
Britannia, Seven Mile Beach, Grand Cayman

Hong Kong

The HK Water Supplies Department had pilot desalination plants in Tuen Mun and Ap Lei Chau using reverse osmosis technology. The production cost was at HK$7.8 to HK$8.4 /m3. In 2011, the government announced a feasibility study whether to build a desalination plant in Tseung Kwan O. Hong Kong used to have a desalination plant in Lok On Pai.

India

The largest desalination plant in South Asia is the Minjur Desalination Plant near Chennai in India, which produces 36.5 million cubic meters of water per year.



A second plant at Nemmeli, Chennai is expected to reach full capacity of 100 million litres of sea-water per day in March 2013.

Iran

An assumption is that around 400,000 m3/d of historic and newly installed capacity is operational in Iran. In terms of technology, Iran’s existing desalination plants use a mix of thermal processes and RO. MSF is the most widely used thermal technology although MED and vapour compression (VC) also feature.

Israel

Israel Desalination Enterprises’ Sorek Desalination Plant in Palmachim provides up to 26,000 m³ of potable water per hour (2.300 m³ p.a.). At full capacity, it is the largest desalination plant of its kind in the world. Once unthinkable, given Israels history of drought and lack of available fresh water resource, with desalination, Israel can now actually produce a surplus of fresh water

http://www.water-technology.net/projects/sorek-desalination-plant/



The Hadera seawater reverse osmosis (SWRO) desalination plant in Israel is the largest of its kind in the world. The project was developed as a build–operate–transfer by a consortium of two Israeli companies: Shikun and Binui, and IDE Technologies.

Malta

Ghar Lapsi II 50,000 m3/day

Oman

A pilot seawater greenhouse was built in 2004 near Muscat, in collaboration with Sultan Qaboos University, providing a sustainable horticultural sector on the Batinah coast.
Ghubrah Power & Desalination Plant, Muscat
Sohar Power & Desalination Plant, Sohar
Sur R.O. Desalination Plant 80,000 m3/day 2009
Qarn Alam 1000 m3/day
Wilayat Diba 2000 m3/day

There are at least two forward osmosis plants operating in Oman
Al Najdah 200 m3/day (built by Modern Water)
Al Khaluf

Saudi Arabia

The Saline Water Conversion Corporation of Saudi Arabia provides 50% of the municipal water in the Kingdom, operates a number of desalination plants, and has contracted $1.892 billion to a Japanese-South Korean consortium to build a new facility capable of producing a billion liters per day, opening at the end of 2013. They currently operate 32 plants in the Kingdom; one example at Shoaiba cost $1.06 billion and produces 450 million liters per day.

Corniche RO Plant (Crop) (operated by SAWACO)
Jubail 800,000 m3/day
North Obhor Plant (operated by SAWACO)
Rabigh 7,000 m3/day (operated by wetico)
planned for completion 2018 Rabigh II 600,000 m3/day (under construction Saline Water Conversion Corporation)
Shuaibah III 150,000 m3/day (operated by Doosan)
South Jeddah Corniche Plant (SOJECO) (operated by SAWACO)
Yanbu Multi Effect Distillation (MED), Saudi Arabia 68,190 m3/day

Spain

Lanzarote is the easternmost of the autonomous Canary Islands. It is the driest of the islands, of volcanic origin and has limited water supplies. A private, commercial desalination plant was installed in 1964. This served the whole island and enabled the tourism industry. In 1974, the venture was injected with investments from local and municipal governments and a larger infrastructure was put in place. In 1989, the Lanzarote Island Waters Consortium (INALSA) was formed.

A prototype seawater greenhouse was constructed in Tenerife in 1992.
Alicante II 65,000 m3/day (operator Inima)
Tordera 60,000 m3/day
Barcelona 200,000 m3/day (operator Degremont) El Prat, near Barcelona, a desalination plant completed in 2009 was meant to provide water to the Barcelona metropolitan area, especially during the periodic severe droughts that put the available amounts of drinking water under serious stress.
Oropesa 50,000 m3/day (operator TECNICAS REUNIDAS)
Moncofa 60,000 m3/day (operator Inima)
Marina Baja - Mutxamel 50,000 m3/day (operator Degremont)
Torrevieja 240,000 m3/day (operator ACCIONA)
Cartagena Escombreras 63,000 m3/day (operator COBRA | TEDAGUA)
Edam Ibiza + Edam San Antonio 25,000 m3/day (operator Ibiza - Portmany)
Mazarron 36,000 m3/day (operator TEDAGUA)
Bajo Almanzora 65,000 m3/day

South Africa

Mossel Bay 15,000 m3/day
Transnet Saldanha 2,400 m3/day
Knysna 2,000 m3/day
Plettenberg Bay 2,000 m3/day
Bushman’s River Mouth 1,800 m3/day
Lambert’s Bay 1,700 m3/day
Cannon Rocks 750 m3/day

United Arab Emirates

The Jebel Ali desalination plant in Dubai, a dual-purpose facility, uses multistage flash distillation and is capable of producing 300 million cubic meters of water per year.



Kalba 15,000 m3/day built for Sharjah Electricity and Water Authority completed 2010(operator CH2MHill)
Khor Fakkan 22,500 m3/day (operator CH2MHill)
Ghalilah RAK 68,000 m3/day (operator AQUATECH)
Hamriyah 90,000 m3/day (operator AQUA Engineering)
Taweelah A1 Power and Desalination Plant has an output 385,000,000 L (85,000,000 imp gal; 102,000,000 US gal) per day of clean water.
Al Zawrah 27,000 m3/day (operator Aqua Engineering)
Layyah I 22,500 m3/day (operator CH2MHill)
Emayil & Saydiat Island ~20,000 m3/day (operator Aqua EPC)
Umm Al Nar Desalination Plant has an output of 394,000,000 L (87,000,000 imp gal; 104,000,000 US gal)/day.
Al Yasat Al Soghrih Island 2M gallons per day (GPD) or 9,000 m3/day
Fujairah F2 is to be completed by July 2010 will have a water production capacity of 492,000,000 L (108,000,000 imp gal; 130,000,000 US gal) per day.
A seawater greenhouse was constructed on Al-Aryam Island, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates in 2000.

United Kingdom

The first large-scale plant in the United Kingdom, the Thames Water Desalination Plant, was built in Beckton, east London for Thames Water by Acciona Agua.
Jersey

The desalination plant located near La Rosière, Corbiere, Jersey, is operated by Jersey Water. Built in 1970 in an abandoned quarry, it was the first in the British Isles.

The original plant used a multistage flash (MSF) distillation process, whereby seawater was boiled under vacuum, evaporated and condensed into a freshwater distillate. In 1997, the MSF plant reached the end of its operational life and was replaced with a modern reverse osmosis plant.

Its maximum power demand is 1,750 kW, and the output capacity is 6,000 cubic meters per day. Specific energy consumption is 6.8 kWh/m3.

Trinidad and Tobago

The Republic of Trinidad and Tobago uses desalination to open up more of the island's water supply for drinking purposes. The country's desalination plant, opened in March 2003, is considered to be the first of its kind. It was the largest desalination facility in the Americas, and it processes 28,800,000 US gallons (109,000 m3) of water a day at the price of $2.67 per 1,000 US gallons (3.8 m3).

This plant will be located at Trinidad's Point Lisas Industrial Estate, a park of more than 12 companies in various manufacturing and processing functions, and it will allow for easy access to water for both factories and residents in the country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination#Existing_facilities_and_facilities_under_construction

16 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Desalination around the world- how other countries are making fresh water from the ocean (Original Post) nationalize the fed May 2014 OP
WOW Thank you oldandhappy May 2014 #1
Simply amazing list Demeter May 2014 #2
It takes a lot of energy to desalinate seawater. hunter May 2014 #3
And there are other drawbacks bloomington-lib May 2014 #5
I didn't realize there were so many drawbacks to it. polly7 May 2014 #6
There aren't. Some people don't ever want to solve problems nationalize the fed May 2014 #12
The good thing is that The2ndWheel May 2014 #14
Heh. hunter May 2014 #15
if that number is correct, what is the issue? quadrature May 2014 #7
There is a lot of upfront and maintenance costs. Santa Barbara mothballed theirs after 3 months... adirondacker May 2014 #8
That would be a fossil fueled or nuclear kilowatt hours? hunter May 2014 #11
Priorities nationalize the fed May 2014 #9
The question is: What needs to be done? hunter May 2014 #10
the alternatives are here now, just not accepted nationalize the fed May 2014 #13
"Humans have around 4 billion years" Nihil May 2014 #16
Amazing and hopeful! TYVM! nt. polly7 May 2014 #4

oldandhappy

(6,719 posts)
1. WOW Thank you
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:51 PM
May 2014

So many! Good for you all you countries moving ahead with this. Delighted to see this. Thank you for the post and for all the good news. We are getting a small one here in the northern part of San Diego County in southern CA.

hunter

(40,705 posts)
3. It takes a lot of energy to desalinate seawater.
Sun May 4, 2014, 04:11 PM
May 2014

3 kWh/m3 in modern plants.

Burning fossil fuels to desalinate seawater is insane, and that's what most of these plants are doing. Even the "wind-powered" plants of Australia, are primarily coal powered, except by accounting, since electricity on the grid is electricity on the grid. One can't really say wind has "replaced" coal until coal consumption within the network is actually declining... Otherwise it's like saying you are quitting smoking by starting to chew nicotine gum, even as you smoke more cigarettes.

The equipment and maintenance cost of strictly solar flash-distillation projects are ferocious. Hot seawater is wickedly corrosive and fouling. Most older flash/distillation plants (fossil, nuclear, even a few solar experiments) have been replaced by reverse osmosis plants.

Forward osmosis looks promising in combination with thermal plants and might be a good fit with various types of thermal solar collection because the seawater side of the circuit in this type of plant remains cool.

But even with clean energy sources the water from desalinization is still very expensive and the intakes and outlets of the desalinization plant damage the existing aquatic environment. It's not simply that organisms caught in the intakes are killed and the saltier water disposed of, it's that many chemicals are used in the process to prevent fouling, etc., and these end up in the waste stream.

Whatever we do, we always return to the same problem. There are too many humans, and there are too many humans living in environments that would be very uncomfortable or deadly without imported water and air conditioning.

bloomington-lib

(946 posts)
5. And there are other drawbacks
Sun May 4, 2014, 05:12 PM
May 2014



Waste Disposal

As with any process, desalination has by-products that must be taken care of. The process of desalination requires pretreatment and cleaning chemicals, which are added to water before desalination to make the treatment more efficient and successful. These chemicals include chlorine, hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide, and they can be used for only a limited amount of time. Once they've lost their ability to clean the water, these chemicals are dumped, which becomes a major environmental concern. These chemicals often find their way back into the ocean, where they poison plant and animal life.

Brine

Brine is the side product of desalination. While the purified water goes on to be processed and put into human use, the water that is left over, which has a super saturation of salt, must be disposed of. Most desalination plants pump this brine back into the ocean, which presents another environmental drawback. Ocean species are not equipped to adjust to the immediate change in salinity caused by the release of brine into the area. The super-saturated salt water also decreases oxygen levels in the water, causing animals and plants to suffocate.

Ocean Populations

The organisms most commonly affected by brine and chemical discharge from desalination plants are plankton and phytoplankton, which form the base of all marine life by forming the base of the food chain. Desalination plants therefore have the ability to negatively affect the population of animals in the ocean. These effects are further developed through the disadvantages caused by desalination "impingement" and "entrainment." While sucking ocean water in for desalination, the plants trap and kill animals, plants and eggs, many of which belong to endangered species.

Health Concerns

Desalination is not a perfected technology, and desalinated water can be harmful to human health as well. By-products of the chemicals used in desalination can get through into the "pure" water and endanger the people who drink it. Desalinated water can also be acidic to both pipes and digestive systems.


Read more: http://www.ehow.com/list_5961767_disadvantages-desalination.html#ixzz30md3NoNc

nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
12. There aren't. Some people don't ever want to solve problems
Tue May 6, 2014, 10:09 AM
May 2014

just bitch about the ones that exist.

See Dr. Scott Jenkens, PHD Scripps institute of Oceanography
Skip to 5:16



"The environmental effects of desalination plants have been studied for more than 20 years. In fact today thousands of these plants are operating all over the world providing scientists with a vast body of data which has confirmed that these plants do not harm the marine environment"


Desalination myths:

Myth: The desalination facility may harm marine life.

Fact: The Huntington Beach Desalination Facility is environmentally safe. Dr. Scott Jenkins and Dr. Jeffery Graham of Scripps Institution of Oceanography conclude that “the science has demonstrated the effects of the desalination facility on the marine environment are benign, and in principle, no different than the effects of natural evaporation.”

Myth: Desalination uses a lot of energy and is more expensive than importing water to make this a viable facility.

Fact: It takes the same amount of energy to produce enough desalinated water for a family’s needs for a year as it does to run a refrigerator for a year. With the cost of imported supplies from Northern California increasing and the reduction in our allotment from the Colorado River, desalinated water is competitively priced with any new high quality water supply. “Improving technology, however, means that desalinated water gradually will become cheaper, and at the same time, reduced allocations of Colorado River water and higher energy rates will drive up imported water costs. Prices are expected to intersect in about a decade,” said Kevin P. Hunt, general manager at the Municipal Water District Orange County (Orange County Register, April 4, 2005).
http://hbfreshwater.com/desalination-101/desalination-myths


The internet has taught me that many people don't want solutions.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
14. The good thing is that
Tue May 6, 2014, 11:22 AM
May 2014

we'll never run out of problems caused by our solutions. Win-win for everyone.

hunter

(40,705 posts)
15. Heh.
Tue May 6, 2014, 02:15 PM
May 2014

Loved the desalinization propaganda video... such sweet nostalgia.

The video reminded me so much of the old San Onofre and Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant promotions. So slick.

Does Southern California really need to be further developed with projects that make the wealthy wealthier and everyone else increasingly miserable, underpaid, and overworked?

Where does it end? With all of us as housekeepers and groundskeepers for the upper classes? Maybe they can jam us all into apartment slums, away from the beaches and nice ocean views. Oops, too late. It's already like that. Ask the people working hard in the background to maintain this illusion of prosperity. Do they have green lawns and palm trees? Does someone else clean their toilets and change their sheets for them? Do they golf on pretty green courses?

In my utopia we're solving water problems by returning things to a natural state and low energy lifestyles. Wetlands are being restored, housing in unstable and environmentally sensitive areas is being removed, and quite a few people are happily relocating to places that actually have good water resources and communities that are not stratified into a wealthy class and a struggling class.


 

quadrature

(2,049 posts)
7. if that number is correct, what is the issue?
Sun May 4, 2014, 11:28 PM
May 2014

3 kwh = 264 gallons (1000 liters)

1 kwh is about 4 to 8 cents on the open market.

seems a modest cost to me.

hunter

(40,705 posts)
11. That would be a fossil fueled or nuclear kilowatt hours?
Mon May 5, 2014, 06:15 PM
May 2014

A solar or wind desalinization plant is expensive. Either the plant only works when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, or else you have to add the cost of storage schemes to the total cost of the system.

For irrigation in arid climates that's very expensive water even at 4 to 8 cents kwh. Farmers in the U.S.A. would typically measure their water use in acre feet. An acre foot is 325,851 US gallons.

A golf course in Southern California might use 400-800 acre feet of water annually. Is it really a good idea to build a fossil-fueled desalinization plant to support uses like that?





nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
9. Priorities
Mon May 5, 2014, 11:11 AM
May 2014

The US is busy doing R&D on wiretapping the net and building the next series of drones, dropping Depleted Uranium on places like Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan while all of a sudden making Ukraine a "priority".

FACT SHEET: U.S. Crisis Support Package for Ukraine
President Obama and Vice President Biden have made U.S. support for Ukraine an urgent priority
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/21/fact-sheet-us-crisis-support-package-ukraine


All of the problems with RO can be overcome. It's just a matter of priorities.

For example:

Nanoporus Graphene Takes Another Step Toward Water Desalination Process
By Dexter Johnson IEEE Spectrum Posted 26 Feb 2014



About 18 months ago, I wrote about an MIT project in which computer models demonstrated that graphene could act as a filter in the desalination of water through the reverse osmosis (RO) method. RO is slightly less energy intensive than the predominantly used multi-stage-flash process. The hope was that the nanopores of the graphene material would make the RO method even less energy intensive than current versions by making it easier to push the water through the filter membrane.

The models were promising, but other researchers in the field said at the time it was going to be a long road to translate a computer model to a real product...

...It would seem that the MIT researchers agreed it was worth the effort and accepted the challenge to go from computer model to a real device as they announced this week that they had developed a method for creating selective pores in graphene that make it suitable for water desalination.

The MIT group collaborated with a team from Oak Ridge National Laboratory and researchers from Saudi Arabia, a country that has been quite active in trying to use nanotechnology to finding cheaper water desalination processes. They published their results in the journal Nano Letters ("Selective Ionic Transport through Tunable Subnanometer Pores in Single-Layer Graphene Membranes&quot ...

http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/biomedical/devices/nanoporus-graphene-takes-another-step-toward-filtration-applications


The Audacity of Action in Nanotech for Energy and Water
By Dexter Johnson IEEE Spectrum 25 Jan 2010

A recent story on how Saudi Arabia plans to use solar energy to power its water desalination plants is short on details and just plain confusing in some places with sentences such as: “The new nanotechnology for using solar energy to operate desalination plants was developed by KACST in association with IBM.”

I suspect what is meant by the above sentence is that they intend to use photovoltaics somehow enabled by nanotechnology to power their desalination plants. Despite the rather awkward syntax, it is clear that Saudi Arabia is intent on using nanotechnology to both help them meet their energy needs and provide their fresh water.

Two of the most critical shortages mankind faces today are water and energy. Nano-enabled processes have demonstrated some promise in easing the water issue and nanotechnology and energy seems to be the proverbial carrot to relieve our dependence on fossil fuels. However, only a handful of companies have had any success in bringing these solutions to market...

...With the Ogallala Aquifer continuing its headlong course towards depletion maybe water shortages, and even resulting food shortages, will be another impetus in addition to expensive energy costs for applying the technologies out there, including nanotechnology, that sit unused and undeveloped as the status quo is meticulously maintained.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/biomedical/devices/nanoporus-graphene-takes-another-step-toward-filtration-applications


Isn't it great that Ukraine is an "Urgent Priority" while the middle class is destroyed and drought takes its toll on the future food supply.

Whatever we do, we always return to the same problem. There are too many humans, and there are too many humans living in environments that would be very uncomfortable or deadly without imported water and air conditioning.


That's being a bit pessimistic, don't you think. We'll never make it out of the Solar System before the Sun explodes with attitudes like that. Once the US could do whatever needed to be done. Now it is concerned with hegemony and making places like Ukraine a "priority". Bollocks to that.

hunter

(40,705 posts)
10. The question is: What needs to be done?
Mon May 5, 2014, 05:37 PM
May 2014

The answer is we need to quit fossil fuels and reduce our numbers to something comfortable and sustainable.

As a civilization we might not make it through this century so it's pointless to imagine we humans will make it out of the Solar System.

There are a couple of options. We can keep burning fossil fuels until climate changes crash this civilization, we can accept nuclear power and continue to live as we are now living until some other natural system supporting us collapses, or we can accept a much slower paced lifestyle powered by non-nuclear, non fossil fuel sources. My own choice would be the last -- a lower energy lifestyle and an end to economic "productivity" as we now know it.

I enjoy Star Trek, I read plenty of Science Fiction, most of my education has been in the sciences, I think the internet, cell phones, and other technologies are magnificent things, but I don't think humans, such as we are, will ever leave this planet in any significant numbers. Perhaps our intellectual descendants will, "people" of some sort better adapted to space travel (robots, artificial humans, who knows, the sorts of creatures that can walk around on Mars naked...) but it's more likely, if we continue down the path we are on, that our species will join all the others that have become extinct.

In my "optimistic" crystal ball we've created a political system where we can gracefully relocate populations from places that have become hostile (rising sea levels, water shortages...) everyone is literate and has easy access to further education and the worldwide communication system, and we've lost our appetite for "factory farm" meat and personal automobiles. Space programs are very active, using increasingly sophisticated robots and instruments. (Thrill seeking humans are not excluded from space, but human space travel is not the focus of public research.) Birth control is voluntary but almost universally practiced. Women are educated and empowered. Medicine is still advancing rapidly and medical research is well-funded by government institutions, with new drugs and treatments released for the benefit of all mankind under non-proprietary share-and-share alike. licenses.

Desalinization is essentially a mature technology today, but the problem is not "lack of water," it's human ignorance and lack of any awareness (or denial) of the actual causes of our problems.

You can't bolt a desalinization plant on a fundamentally broken and unsustainable economic system and expect it to fix things.

nationalize the fed

(2,169 posts)
13. the alternatives are here now, just not accepted
Tue May 6, 2014, 10:20 AM
May 2014
There are a couple of options. We can keep burning fossil fuels until climate changes crash this civilization, we can accept nuclear power and continue to live as we are now living until some other natural system supporting us collapses, or we can accept a much slower paced lifestyle powered by non-nuclear, non fossil fuel sources. My own choice would be the last -- a lower energy lifestyle and an end to economic "productivity" as we now know it.


Fuel cell cars, buses, trucks etc. can eliminate the piston powered gas engine within a few years, and the only exhaust is water. Solar electricity is in the infant stage, with many innovations to come.

Using fission to boil water to spin turbines is insane and should be illegal. Hopefully saner heads will prevail in the future. Not one more fission plant needs to be built.

Hydrogen is the future, and it's here now. Many either don't get it or don't want to.

I don't think humans, such as we are, will ever leave this planet in any significant numbers....
Humans have around 4 billion years before the sun blows up to figure out how to leave the planet, and I'd like to think that's enough time to figure out how to do it.

...but it's more likely, if we continue down the path we are on, that our species will join all the others that have become extinct.
Sometimes the negativity of the internet is overwhelming. I'm still a bit more optimistic.

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
16. "Humans have around 4 billion years"
Wed May 7, 2014, 03:50 AM
May 2014

They will not be humans for most of that time so Hunter's point is correct.

The typical species lifetime for mammals is 1-2 million years.
After that, the species will be extinct.

It might well have evolved into a more fitting new species (i.e., one that
is better adapted to survive in the new conditions) or the line might have
simply failed - gone forever. Either way, the original species is no more.

You might not like the idea but reality doesn't give a shit.


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