I don't think I/P is going to work well under this new format

[oberliner]

I fear that a group like this needs the kind of strict rules that served it well in the previous version of DU.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. Given the state of affairs between Palestine and Israel, why should we be different?

Rather fitting, in a way.

[tammywammy]

2. You can come up with your own statement of purpose

And make it more "strict", but it should be done by consensus I believe.

[mike_c]

3. personally, I hated some of the restrictions in the old I/P forum....

I think they did more to stifle honest debate and discussion than they did to exclude hyperbole and ugliness.

[PufPuf23]

6. I agree and not posted but lurked on the DU2 I/P forum. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

4. Fwiw I tend to agree

I actually didn't have issues with the guidelines, only occasional issues on how consistently they were enforced. I just figure that without a statement of purpose for this group, I'll continue to post as though they did exist and hope everyone else does the same

[ellisonz]

18. +1

[Mosby]

5. I agree

but I think what is worse is that the new fee structure creates two classes of posters, the Admins have gone way beyond quicker click through and search functions for star holders. The new fee system ($42 per year min) gives "star" posters a 40% higher chance of serving on a jury and access to important formatting functions. DU is now basically a pay site which is why they dropped the fund drives right before the launch of DU3.

This sub forum is going to change dramatically without the old rules. I alerted on the OP with the made up title: "Israel leaves 200 children in the desert with No food No water and No shelter" (made up by a youtube poster) and the jury voted 5-1 to leave it up.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. I don't agree about the two different classes

Im going to pay, not because I want a better chance of serving on a jury, but because I don't like ads and I think I should give something to a place I spend a lot of time at.

The problem with yr alert is yr operating as though the old guidelines were still in place. I'm going to post as though they were, but I'm not going to alert like they were.

[Mosby]

9. If people want to pay great

but doesn't it bother you just a little that during all the testing of DU3 including multiple posts from the admins no one ever mentioned that the price of a star was going from $5 to $42? And that more features would be withheld from non-donors?

The way the jury selection system is set up right now favors paying, high frequency posters and that might work for the entire site but I think it's wrong for the I/P group.

I also plan to post under the old rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Skinner mentioned it before the last preview thing happened...

Me, I'll pay for the reasons I said, and because if I'm the host of a group I'll need to have a star, at least that's how I think it works.

But when it comes to serving on a jury thingy, personally that's something I could happily live without being involved in. I've been on 3 so far, and some of the justifications I've seen for leaving personal attacks standing are just bizarre. Maybe things will settle down and it'll improve, but if it doesn't I'm opting out of being involved....

Having said that, while I'm more than happy if Skinner were to allocate Lithos and UGRR as hosts for this group and the guidelines from DU2 are resurrected, I don't want alerts from this group to be treated differently than anywhere else on DU. We should sink or swim along with the rest of DU, and going back to the old way would be doing away with the transparency of DU3...

[Lithos]

8. I had long discussions with Skinner and EarlG about this...

One of my main issues is that the jury system only looks at the singular post which often can be taken out of context with what was said in the thread.

There are other concerns, but that was one of the big ones.

[Ruby the Liberal]

10. Actually, the post is viewed in its thread

(You have to scroll down or click the link in the jury notice to see the other posts - they are easy to miss).

[Lithos]

12. What I am talking about

Is the ability to work a sub-thread consistently. About all you can do in the new system is alert on any other post you find an issue with and hope the jury system will catch it. At the current moment you can't.

L-

[Ruby the Liberal]

13. This is true.

How it has been explained to me is that the hopes are that the community will step in to bring something back on topic. Upside being that jury posts voted to remove are just hidden where people can have the ability to view what happened as opposed to miscommunications of "I only said...". Downside is that if the community could bring something back on target, there would be no need to delete a subthread as opposed to the impossible task of trying to untangle it.

Got a match?

[Lithos]

15. One outcome of the new system

Will be the increased ease to continually beat people over the head with something they said, even if it was obviously misstated.

One joke I share with my wife is one time she turned with me in great seriousness and told me the trash stinks. She meant to say the trash can itself stinks and needed washing out, yet what was said was something else. Of course, I've never forgotten it

[Violet_Crumble]

21. That's no worse than being continually hit over the head with something they never said...

And that was happening to me a lot, especially towards the end over at DU2.

I've done that jury thing three times now, and while it's clear that many people are trying hard to be fair and it shows in the comments they make, I can see some problems with this system. I don't know if there's going to be any consistency at all and it could end up that one person saying something gets hidden, while someone else in the same thread saying the same thing gets allowed to stand by another jury. One thing I do like about it is the transparency and communication around the process, regardless of whether I approve of the outcome or not.

[Lithos]

22. Most of the time

People know why a post was removed, especially when they have been members for many years.

One weakness of the new system is when posts requiring additional knowledge is missing. This means the more esoteric forums are going to have exactly the issue you describe of consistency. Pelsar's comment below is I think a very correct insight.

L-

[Violet_Crumble]

24. I don't know if I entirely agree with what pelsar said...

I don't think the 'elite' will be a few, but more likely a very large number of DUers. And everyone, regardless of whether they pay for a star or not, have a chance to be on a jury, though after three pretty confusing goes myself where I'm seeing contradictory outcomes, I'm seriously considering opting of being involved in it if things don't improve over the next few weeks...

So, do you have any idea what's going to happen to this group? fwiw, I'd want you and UGRR to be the hosts if either of you wanted to do it. It definately needs a host and some guidelines sooner rather than later...

[undergroundrailroad]

26. Thank you Violet.

UGRR

[undergroundrailroad]

27. I agree.

UGRR

[Ruby the Liberal]

11. Forgive me for being elementary here

but what is wrong with "Don't be a dick"?

I mean seriously, I don't know a soul who doesn't come down on one side of this conflict or the other - but that doesn't mean people have to extrapolate their preferences onto other members.

This is why I read I/P daily but rarely posted. It was a dungeon with no rec value and it wasn't worth being called every name in the book (and a few not even written there) for just pointing out what one side or the other was (or wasn't) doing to inflame things.

I get that some people will maintain that one or the other side is flawless in execution and blameless in action, but we have a chance now to start with a fresh slate. Can't we do that as adults?

[Lithos]

14. Wil Wheaton would be proud

He cites "Don't be a dick" on how to act in his threads for G+, etc.

As for the rest of your post. You make some interesting points, though I would say the I/P debate itself bears little resemblance to the actual nature of events so much that the events themselves really come across as excuses than not.

[Ruby the Liberal]

16. This is true

If the actual people involved in the conflict talked to (or even about) each other the way people here talk about them, the entire region would have been a sea of green glass decades ago.

I have traveled quite extensively throughout the middle east - through Israel and her Arab Neighbor States. I think people here would be gobsmacked - not only how peaceful the region is, but how kind people truly are to one another as their day to day nature. Its like extrapolating NYC into 'MadMax on steroids' just because the news reported a crime in Brooklyn.

[shaayecanaan]

17. I don't think I ever alerted on anything...

I should get a gold star for that. You could call it the "I am not a mindless dibber-dobber little snitch" award.

I don't think I've ever recced something or unrecced it either, although I am vaguely aware of those concepts. Like other forms of internet epeen, it seemingly motivates other people but seems to have passed me by - eg "holy Jesus, look how many recs I have" - I can't stand Facebook for that very reason (and others).

To be honest, I am vaguely surprised that this forum didn't end up getting canned entirely, and that was my impression when it didn't appear in the top menu of the forum boards.

My guiding philosophy on such matters is: This is debate on the internet - the stakes are very low. It serves me well.

[pelsar]

19. shaayecanaan sometimes we agree.....there is hope for this world yet...

if you get a gold star then i get one too....never "snitched, never recced (whatever the hell that means).....

its only an internet....at best it forces us to learn more about the subject, which I have thanks to the endless debates, with everyone i've disagreed with over the years.


i haven't payed any attention to the 'jury" system, but my first impression is that were going to have a version and conflict of any governing system. Whereas in the past we had the concept of a "benevolent dictator" (which we all understand cannot exist), vs the "peoples jury system which will quickly become a version of the "elites vs the other" as only a few will actually be voting , understand the system and taking advantage of it, to push their agenda

[Lithos]

23. I will vouch for both of you for the gold star status

whatever that means....