lan Pappe on the western awakening and what it means for Israel/Palestine

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/western-awakening-israelpalestine

Ilan Pappe has lately published a new book of dialogues with Noam Chomsky, and edited by Frank Barat, called On Palestine. Pappe is the director of the European Centre for Palestine Studies and the author of many books, notably The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Born in Israel 60 years ago, he left the University of Haifa in 2007 to take up a position at the University of Exeter in England after he called for boycott of Israel and the school president pressed him to resign, while others threatened him personally. I interviewed Pappe by phone in April. The last four questions I sent to him by email, and he responded in kind.

Q. One of the paradoxes you cite at the beginning of the book is the gap between world opinion of the situation in Israel/Palestine, which is with it, and elite opinion, which doesn’t budge. Explain this.

I think I became aware of this paradox once I was aware of how significant the shift in civil society or in public opinion was. In other words, the moment you understand that the new attitude toward Israel is not marginal or esoteric you suddenly encounter it everywhere– among people who are in the know, among people who have only partial information, and– it sounds simplistic– but almost any decent person you meet in the west has a clear view of Israel/Palestine with varying degrees of knowledge or commitment. There is a sense of a significant shift, and you would expect that this shift would manifest itself in mainstream media or politics, if not for genuine reasons, then for political reasons, because it is an important issue for your voters.

To my great surprise, and even after the three horrific attacks on Gaza, 2008-2009, 2012, and culminating with the attack in the summer, the cumulative effect has still left the mainstream politics in the same place they were in 20 years ago. I find that bewildering to say the least.

[oberliner]

1. The Liar as Hero

At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/books/magazine/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian

If you care to learn what Ilan Pappe is all about, I suggest you read the entire article linked to above.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. Ah yes, it's the Benny Morris Zionist comedy hour...

The same Benny Morris that said this...

"A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on."

Here's BennyBozo saying that killing a small amount of Palestinians isn't as bad as killing a lot of other people...

You have to put things in proportion. These are small war crimes. All told, if we take all the massacres and all the executions of 1948, we come to about 800 who were killed. In comparison to the massacres that were perpetrated in Bosnia, that's peanuts. In comparison to the massacres the Russians perpetrated against the Germans at Stalingrad, that's chicken feed. When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well.

[oberliner]

6. Well there ya go

A few vomiting icons and some quotes and you can go back to believing whatever you want to believe and never allow anything to be challenged.

I am guessing you didn't even read the article.

I read the whole interview you posted. Even though Pappe is a vile human being who is a piss poor historian as the preeminent Israeli historian clearly demonstrates.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

13. Those are the quotes of Benny Morris...or are you going to claim mistranslation...?

Sauce for the goose, sauce for the goose.

[Mosby]

15. I think you meant to say: "What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander"

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. I wrote what I meant to say.

Some can interpolate shortened phrases without having to see the whole thing. Others not so much.

But see, even you got it after a few minutes.

[Mosby]

17. Yeah, whatever, you didn't know the saying.

make up whatever story you want.

and "infer" would have worked better than "interpolate"

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

18. Sticks-n-stones, mos, sticks-n-stones...

[Little Tich]

3. Benny Morris has an axe to grind with Ilan Pappe for ideological reasons.

I wouldn’t too concerned, as they both are historically accurate, and Benny Morris is calling Ilan Pappe out on minor details. In fact, a debate between these two can only lead to a better understanding of Israeli history.

It’s not as if Ilan Pappe is a revisionist bullshit fake historian like Efraim Karsh.

[oberliner]

5. No he doesn't

Nothing in this piece has anything to do with ideology. It has to do with a respected historian pointing out the sloppiness and inaccuracies found in a text riddled with misinformation.

[Little Tich]

9. Benny Morris is a good historian, perhaps too good for his own Zionist views.

It seems as if he's been trying to refute his own findings lately.

[Little Tich]

4. I would recommend anyone who wants to know more about the history of early Israel

to read Ilan Pappe’s books on the subject. Actually, Benny Morris a good read as well, as they both complement each other.

[oberliner]

7. That would be an extremely foolish thing to do

Unless you like to see the way a propagandist operates.

[Little Tich]

10. I've read two books that Pappe wrote, and I think they were OK.

I'm usually pretty good at sniffing out BS, and I didn't get the impression that there was anything wrong with them. I think your opinion is unfounded, or at least based on bias rather than fact.

Most books on Israeli history are terrible, they often present a falsified version that vilifies the Arabs and absolves the nascent Israel of any wrongdoing, when in many respects, the truth is the opposite. As an example of bad historians, Efraim Karsh is one of these revisionists, and he should be banned from writing or speaking about Israeli history.

While Ilan Pappe displays an obvious anti-Zionist bias, he's not factually wrong. In the article you provided, Morris' criticism is really minor. He never challenges anything that would actually change the arguments that Pappe makes, whether that argument is that plan Dalet was premeditated or that the refugees were victims of ethnic cleansing.

PS: Your criticism of Ilan Pappe forced me to read this crap. Maybe you will enjoy it.:

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, Reviewed by Seth J. Frantzman
http://www.meforum.org/1886/the-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestine

[Israeli]

8. Hysterical ....

...an argument over which post zionist historian is best

Happy to be acknowledge .....

I nominate Tom Segev .

[Little Tich]

11. I'll take a look at Segev.

Apparently, Benny Morris doesn't like him either.

[Israeli]

12. Benny Morris ...

...went all Right wing on us Little Tich......its not just Segev he doesnt like

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

14. TY, Israeli.