Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumBDS silences Native American voices
BDS has a great following in Europe and among academic leftists in the United States. It is a political movement whose objective is to disenfranchise Israel. Meanwhile Arab Nationalists and their friends have been beavering away at artists, musicians and thinkers, urging them not to go to Israel. It is not unheard of for BDS supporters to send anonymous threats. At the same time professional BDS mythologists have been drawing false parallels between the Palestinian experience and the history of Native American people. It is at this juncture that I have to speak out and say “enough.”
One such piece I have read was written just over a year ago by Sa’ed Adel Atshan and published as an Op-Ed in the web journal Indian Country Today under the title “Palestinian Trail of Tears: Joy Harjo’s Missed Opportunity for Indigenous Solidarity.” Atshan was chiding Joy Harjo for not cancelling an invitation to be writer in residence at Tel Aviv University. For those unaware of that part of history, the Trail of Tears is the name given to the forced removal of Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Seminole and Muskogee Creek people from their autonomous homelands in the South Eastern United States under the Indian Removal Act of 1830. They were forced by soldiers to march to Oklahoma during which thousands died.
Atshan begins his piece on a sentimental note: “Ever since my childhood, I have always felt a deep connection with Native Americans. At the Ramallah Friends School, a Quaker institution established in Palestine over a century ago, we learned about our shared history as indigenous peoples who have faced ethnic cleansing by European colonists and the importance of nonviolent resistance for freedom and dignity.”
There are serious problems with the first paragraph. Qualifying Arabs as the indigenous people of the Levant is sketchy and denies that the region’s original people were Judeans, Samaritans, Phoenicians and other Canaanite people. Arabs only arrived in the 7th century AD. Atshan dishonestly portrays Jews as “European colonists” while it is a fact that there have always been Jews in what is now Israel, including the disputed territories. They have been joined over the last several centuries by diaspora Jews from Yemen, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq, from both ends of the Mediterranean and from Eastern Europe. No one could possibly mistake a Yemenite Jew for a European, and Atshan understands that very well.
more...
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/bds-silences-native-american-voices/
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shira
(30,109 posts)...From afar this is all a comedy: a self-righteous Englishman and a white looking woman playing Liliuokalani attack a real Native American for not supporting their faux indigenous cause that itself looks like the first attempts at ethnic cleansing. It is the trisomy can-can performed by people grandstanding in the name of Human Rights while violating one after another of them. BDS is a toxic cesspool of envy and bitter resentment, not a logical, intelligent movement towards peaceful co-existence.
People like Kauanui, Salaita, and Atshan spread half-truths and hurl slogans. They abuse the formal education they have received while attacking Native Americans who disagree. They teach “Native American and Indigenous Studies” while trying to silence authentic voices such as Joy Harjo’s. Anti-Semitism is a European disease, and like good colonizers they are trying to spread it like smallpox to Native American communities.
Atshan tries to subjugate Joy Harjo, as if it were his right to tell her what she may and may not do: “Harjo crossed the picket line. She helped provide legitimacy to an institution that sits above the ethnically cleansed Palestinian village of Shaykh Muwannis while supporting the Israeli military occupation which is illegal under international law.”
That isn’t Joy Harjo’s picket line, it’s yours. She isn’t the little Indian Barbie doll you played with at the Quaker school in Ramallah, but a real person with freedom to make her own choices without having to take your opinion into consideration. Women in BDS land may not have any such rights, but Native America isn’t your country. Atshan ends his op-ed by stating: “Many activists have devoted countless hours in reaching out to Harjo on her Facebook page. So many of us have written respectfully as fans.” So many, and yet such poor results? How amusing that cultural outsiders, fakes, and propagandists scream out about colonization while hijacking university ethnic studies programmes and working to silence Native American voices.
Response to shira (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
shira
(30,109 posts).....against hateful BDS concern trolls.
Also, Jews are indigenous to the land, with ancestral, cultural, & historic ties going back 3500 years. Same blood quantum, same religion, same language. Meanwhile, Palestinians identify themselves as part of the Arab people or nation (indigenous to Arabia, not Israel).
In fact, when people talked about Palestinians 100 years ago, they were referring to Jews. Here's Immanuel Kant from the 18th century referring to Jews he identifies as Palestinian foreigners...
http://bowman.typepad.com/cubowman/2004/06/an_antisemitic_.html
From Kant in the 18th century until 1939...
Note the Star of David logo on the Palestinian team's jerseys during the handshake (in a soccer game vs. Australia) in the first few seconds of the video:
Response to shira (Reply #3)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And wooooow.
Do you have any fathoming of how fucking racist this asshole is, Shira? Like, seriously, when you read this, did ANY alarm bells go off in your head, or was it just "This guy agrees with me! he must be right! I'll post his slime on DU!"
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)has no basis in history, but is yet another example of the revisionist history that is promoted by the State of Israel and its defenders. The Palestinians are the modern descendants of the Philistines, and as such have roots in that area contemporaneous to the Israelites.
Thus Atshan's piece is quite relevant to the argument here. Just as the First Peoples in the US were victims of forced removal and genocide, so are the Palestinians.
In the US the argument was framed as "Manifest Destiny". The concept that God had intended that the European colonizers would and should displace the indigenous inhabitants who were not using the land that became the US to its full potential. A rather eerie parallel to a phrase that was popularized during the early years of the Israeli State. That phrase was "A land without a people for a people without a land". The obvious implication was that Palestine was uninhabited, and that the Jews should be given this vacant land as their own. That was coupled with the idea that Palestine was promised to the Jews by God.
As to the Palestinian/Philistine connection:
Answer: The Philistines were an aggressive, warmongering people who occupied a part of southwest Palestine between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. The name “Philistine” comes from the Hebrew word Philistia, and the Greek rendering of the name, palaistinei, gives us the modern name “Palestine.” The Philistines are first recorded in Scripture in the Table of Nations, a list of the patriarchal founders of seventy nations descended from Noah (Genesis 10:14). It is thought that the Philistines originated in Caphtor, the Hebrew name for the island of Crete and the whole Aegean region (Amos 9
; Jeremiah 47:4). For unknown reasons, they migrated from that region to the Mediterranean coast near Gaza. Because of their maritime history, the Philistines are often associated with the “Sea Peoples.” The Bible records that the Philistines had contact with both Abraham and Isaac as early as 2000 B.C. (Genesis 21:32, 34; 26:1, 8).
After Isaac’s involvement with the Philistines (Genesis 26:18), they are next mentioned in passing in the book of Exodus shortly after the Israelites crossed the Red Sea: “When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, ‘If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt’” (Exodus 13:17).
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Philistines.html#ixzz3co0dldWx
My take:
Interesting that the Philistines had contact with Abraham as early as 2000BCE. Is THAT early enough to establish a claim to the land?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Corwin's ilk seem to believe that iron-age Arabia somehow supported hundreds of millions of Arabs who all poured out and totally replaced the other people in the middle east and Maghreb in one fell swoop.
This is complete ignorance.
shira
(30,109 posts)You agree they're descended from the Canaanites and Philistines - based on biblical claims?
Am I understanding you correctly?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)In fact, you added your own perspective as if you were in agreement with that.
I think it's funny you guys are basing Palestinian indigenous claims solely on the Torah when you have zero evidence that the vast majority of Palestinians are truly indigenous to Israel, Gaza, and the W.Bank.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)This is complete ignorance.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)destined to be exclusively for Jews, can the Biblical history of the land not be shown to prove that the Philistines were the original inhabitants, or at least as original as the Jews?
And if so, what of previous claims that the Palestinians were not indigenous to the area, and that they were descendants of peoples from the Arabian peninsula? A claim based solely on a shared language.
shira
(30,109 posts)The fact is that Jews today share the same history, culture, ancestry, religion, and language as ancient Jews. The very definition of indigenous. Philistines ceased being a distinct people before the common era. Same with Canaanites.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But because it conflicts with the often repeated myth that the land of Palestine was "a land without a people for a people without a land", that heritage is ignored or denied.
As to religious Jews sharing...etc, does that mean that only the ultra Orthodox Jews who are also Aramaic speakers have a legitimate claim to the land? And what of people who are not purely Jews from BCE times until present day? Should all claimants to Jewish ancestry have to present evidence in support of their claims? Would evidence of non-Jewish ancestry diminish the claim to the land?
I feel that your statement about supposed lineage is unworkable and indefensible.
shira
(30,109 posts)Centuries before the common era.
So how do you know Palestinians descend from Phillistines? Is it the name Palestina, an Imperialist Roman construct? Is that where you're getting hung up?
I feel that your statement about supposed lineage is unworkable and indefensible.
Do you know what indigenous means? Look it up. It refers to a people who share a common ancestry, history, culture, traditions, and language in a certain land. Jews trace back to the Levant. My ancestors came to America over 100 years ago from Lithuania & Eastern Europe. But we all look like we're from the Mediterranean region. I'm constantly mistaken for someone who is Greek, Italian, or Hispanic.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Feel free to refer back to it.
As to your definition of indigenous:
"There is no universally accepted definition for “Indigenous,” though there are characteristics that tend to be common among Indigenous Peoples"
http://www.culturalsurvival.org/who-are-indigenous-peoples
You are determined to accept as indigenous to Palestine only people who identify as Jews. You dismiss the Bedouin and the Palestinians because to admit that they were and are indigenous would weaken your argument about the Jews being the only legitimate inhabitants of Israel.
Accepting your logic, all non-native people living in the US have no claim to the land. And carrying your logic to its ultimate end, we are all descended from those homo sapiens who migrated over the millennia from the Rift valley in Africa to every country in the world.
And looks are no clue, or no definitive clue as to origin. I also have olive skin and dark hair and eyes. As do most of my relatives.
shira
(30,109 posts)....over 2500 years ago.
All you're doing is using the Torah, finding some extinct ancient people who once lived in the land thousands of years ago, and you're assuming most Palestinians descend from those people.....without any evidence whatsoever.
You may as well assert they descend from the Hittites, Jebusites, and Amorites too. Why the hell not?
I don't have a problem with the Bedouin & Palestinians being indigenous to the land going back 1000's of years. But history proves that the vast majority are not indigenous to Israel & the territories. By 1948 at least half had just recently moved there from other countries for economic reasons.
Let me ask you: Are Jews indigenous to Israel?
All non-native Americans have rights of longstanding presence.
Look, my point is that there is not another people - other than Samaritans - who still exist as a distinct group of people going back thousands of years in the land - besides Jews. History doesn't even record Palestinians or Philistines as a distinct group of people who lived in the land during the Assyrian, Babylonian, Greek, or Roman conquests of Judea.
Imperial Rome renamed Israel into "Palestina" some 2000 years ago as a ploy to erase all Jewish connection to the land. From that time forward until about 60 years ago, everyone knew this. When people referred to Palestinians, they meant Jews. When the Brits started with their Mandate and called the region Palestine, the Arab world balked at what they saw as a win for Zionism because even they connected Palestine to the Jews.
That's more a response to those who call Jews foreign invading European "white" colonist oppressors.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Well, the Amorites didn't live in the region. The Jebusites did, however (they're apparently the people who founded Jerusalem, which was later conquered by Israelites.) And the Hittites ruled the entire region down into Egypt for almost two centuries, it's not unreasonable to assume they had their take from locals they fancied.
Seriously Shira, there are two absolutely universal rules about humans one must understand to ever hope to understand anthropology
One, Humans travel.
Two, humans fuck.
Once you understand these two human basics - and the ramifications thereof - everything starts making a lot more sense. The idea of compartmentalized "pure' ethnic and racial groups is pseudoscientific nonsense.
shira
(30,109 posts)....most Palestinians are indigenous to the land, you let us all know - right? We'll be waiting with baited breath.
As it is, those who have origins there going back many centuries (like from Arabia) have rights of longstanding presence.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What proof can you offer that the Pre-Islamic peoples of the Middle east completely and totally vanished, to be replaced with an equal number of people from iron-age Hejaz?
Y'see, we actually have historical documentation of the displacement and near-total destruction of aboriginal peoples in the Americas, Australia, and southern Africa. we have archaeological records. We have remains and first-hand accounts telling us how it happened (communicable diseases, mostly.)
I'm sure you have information - Scientific information, not editorial propaganda - proving that the peoples of mesopotamia, syria, the Levant, Egypt, Maghreb and the Sahara were all completely annihilated, to be fully replaced, within a matter of days, by invaders from Hejaz?
Can you at least provide evidence that Hejaz had these millions upon millions of people to spare for such an endeavor?
I'm going to say right now... no, you can't. Because the history you are depending on here is a fairy tale, Shira. In fact, it's pretty much identical to the Mormon version of Native American history.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)"All non-native Americans have rights of longstanding presence."
Let us take this principle that you have expressed as a starting point.
Archaeological evidence for Philistine occupation of Palestine is abundant. Following are a few sites:
"Belameh, located a little over one mile (1.6 km) south of Jenin, is an important Bronze Age site identified with the ancient city of Ibleam, one of the Palestinian cities mentioned in the Egyptian Royal Archive that was conquered by Thutmose III in the 15th century BCE."
"Tel es-Sultan (meaning the "Sultan's Hill"
is located in Jericho, approximately two kilometers from the city center. Kathleen Kenyon's excavations at the site beginning in 1951, established that it was one of the earliest sites of human habitation, dating back to 9000 BCE. The mound contains several layers attesting to its habitation throughout the ages.[65]
Despite recognition of its importance by archaeologists, the site is not presently included on the World Heritage List. In April 2007, Hamdan Taha announced that the Palestinian Authority's Department of Antiquities and Cultural Heritage had begun the procedures for its nomination."
"Tell es-Sakan is the only Early Bronze Age site in Gaza discovered to date. Located five kilometers south of Gaza City, the site was discovered by chance in 1998 during construction for a new housing complex, and work was halted to allow archaeological soundings to be conducted.[37] The site spans an area of eight to twelve hectares and shows evidence of continuous habitation throughout the Early Bronze Age (3,300 BCE to 2,200 BCE). "
"Having long been overlooked in archaeological research, the number of excavations in the Gaza Strip has multiplied since the establishment in 1995 of the Department of Antiquities in Gaza, a branch of the Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities of the Palestinian National Authority.[37][38] Plans to build a national archaeological museum also promise to highlight the rich history of Gaza city, which has been described as, "one of the world's oldest living cities."
Read more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Palestinian_archaeology
As to your argument, and common to Israeli argument and rationalizations,
Essential to the Israeli myth of a vacant land is to deny that anyone lived on the land. If evidence is shown that the land was occupied, deny that contemporaneous Palestinians are descended from the Philistines.
Finally, getting back to my starting point of your argument, if non-native Americans have rights of longstanding presence, or use, why do you deny the rights of longstanding presence to Palestinians? At least be consistent in your assertion of principles.
shira
(30,109 posts)The question is whether all or most Palestinians descend from Philistines.
You have nothing proving that!
Essential to the Israeli myth of a vacant land is to deny that anyone lived on the land. If evidence is shown that the land was occupied, deny that contemporaneous Palestinians are descended from the Philistines.
Finally, getting back to my starting point of your argument, if non-native Americans have rights of longstanding presence, or use, why do you deny the rights of longstanding presence to Palestinians? At least be consistent in your assertion of principles.
1. Palestinians certainly do have rights of longstanding presence. I've never argued otherwise. Whether they're all indigenous or whether most are is highly questionable.
2. No one sane argues that the land was vacant just as no one sane denies that Palestinians lived there.
3. Let's remember, it's the anti-Zionist BDS side who argues Jews are colonists & not indigenous, thereby arguing they have no right to sovereignty on any part of historic Palestine. Do you agree with that?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)on to number three.
While Jews who were living in Palestine for hundreds or thousands of years are indeed longstanding residents of the area, that does not mean that Jews who moved to Palestine after the Balfour Declaration or subsequent to World War Two are/were indigenous to the area. My ancestors moved from France to what is now Quebec in 1604. If I moved to France I would not be considered an indigenous resident of France. I would be a recent immigrant, albeit one with a French name and with French as one of my maternal languages.
As to sovereignty and Palestine, we both know that the decision to give the Jews sovereignty to part of historic Palestine was made by European colonial powers. Can colonialists make decisions about land that is not theirs, and can or should such decisions be binding on people who live in the land that is being apportioned?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Are you religious, shira?
Orthodox?
Atheist?
Do you believe that Israel should take everything from the Palestinians that you assert do not somehow exist?
Israeli
(4,485 posts).....its clear as daylight , at least to me , that she is religious.
You do realise RDO that between Orthodox and Atheist there are many levels ?
ref: http://www.reformjudaism.org/religious-pluralism-israel
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Israel shouldn't be taking anything away from Palestinians.
And Palestinians do exist now.
Israeli
(4,485 posts)....it has bells on it
shira
(30,109 posts)....rightwing, crazed pro-settlement religious fanatics.
It makes it so much more difficult to pigeonhole, marginalize, or ignore your opponents when they're liberals.
If only they were all Kahanists it would be so much easier for you.
shira
(30,109 posts)Not even Yasser Arafat was Palestinian, as he was born in Cairo.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)are you actually hoping people will watch that video? and the comment about Arafat-yes he was born in Egypt, and?
9. Hamas leader says Palestinians are half Egyptian, half Saudi
View profile
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=384_1333626759
Not even Yasser Arafat was Palestinian, as he was born in Cairo.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134105972#post9
shira
(30,109 posts)....about Palestinians being half-Egyptian, half-Saudi?
Whether people want to watch the video or not is up to them. I put it out there for objective people to see for themselves.
And yes, Arafat was Egyptian - not Palestinian. Most people don't know that the Palestinians' first leader wasn't even Palestinian, or indigenous to British Mandate Palestine.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)After his mother died, his father sent him and his brother to live with their mother's family in Jerusalem.
Also Shira, you need to make up your mind if you find Hamas credible or not. And I'm afraid that this time, reality is not on your side (for starters, there was no such thing as "a saudi" until 1932 when the al-Sauds established control over the Nejd.)
shira
(30,109 posts)Take a look at the UN's definition of a Palestinian refugee. Refugees needed only to claim they had lived in the area 2 years prior to 1948. So the UN knows something you don't know, or claim not to know.
Funny how you believe the Hamas representative - pleading with Egypt - is lying. If you care to look it up, you'll see that most Palestinians have names that show their origins are from Egypt, Arabia, Iraq, Algeria, Yemen, etc. The Hamas representative was clearly alluding to this.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Nor does a name.
Take for instance... Oh I dunno, Jay Corwin.
Neither "Jay" nor "Corwin" are Tlingit names.
And this guy:
Most assuredly has European ancestors.
Would you say that the man you are using as a source is lying about being indigenous?
shira
(30,109 posts)....given his paternal grandmother was Egyptian?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....and he was Egyptian.
And considering what the Hamas representative said about half of Palestinians being Egyptian, etc..
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)fascinating 
25. Yeah, actually there is when his paternal grandmother was Egyptian...
....and he was Egyptian.
And considering what the Hamas representative said about half of Palestinians being Egyptian, etc..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=106047
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I'll leave such things to you
25. Yeah, actually there is when his paternal grandmother was Egyptian...
....and he was Egyptian.
And considering what the Hamas representative said about half of Palestinians being Egyptian, etc..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=106047
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)bigots do that 24/7 to delegitimize others.
I'm reminded of bigots in the USA who would explain that 1 drop of the wrong DNA would make you inferior to their whitness.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Arafat was a Palestinian born to two Palestinians.
And frankly your line of reasoning is not only highly offensive and ignorant, but it also actively undermines the other argument you are trying to make on this thread, of Jews being indigenous.
As for the hamas dude... Hamas also claims that Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs, don't they? I don't think genealogy and anthropology are hamas' strong suits.
shira
(30,109 posts)Al Qudwa refers to a tribe from Gaza going back to the 17th century (2 brothers).
However, those 2 brothers moved there during that time from Allepo Syria.
Being from Allepo Syria, they can't be indigenous to Palestine, or descend from the Phillistines (or Canaanites).
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But did your parents ever teach you about the birds and the bees?
shira
(30,109 posts)....that go way back into ancient times, perhaps even alongside the Jews of that era?
The Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans all wrote about their battles and dealings with the Jews of the area. However, they never mention Palestinians who fought alongside the Jews against foreign Imperial invaders. Phillistines aren't mentioned, and neither are Canaanites.
Where were they hiding?
Obviously, historians writing about Jews WRT the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans were Zionists.
AIPAC must have something to do with that.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You're grasping at straws to support your bad argument, shira.
And now you're going off on some weird tangent. You're clearly losing any grasp at all you may have had on this discussion.
shira
(30,109 posts)Why aren't a distinct people like the Palestinians, Philistines or Canaanites mentioned even ONCE alongside Jews by ancient historians from Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, or Rome? Samaritans made the history books & they're still a distinct people from ancient times.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)for your - and Corwin's - belief system to make a lick of sense, it must assume two things
1) That every pre-Islamic person was killed, fled, or otherwise evacuated from the middle east and Maghreb.
2) That at the same time, the Hejaz somehow had millions upon millions of people to totally and completely replace those who vanished.
shira
(30,109 posts)Your side is arguing they all go back thousands of years.
Fact is, most (at least half) are recent immigrants (within 150 years) from other countries who settled there for economic reasons.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And I'd love to know who it was that the Ottomans were collecting taxes from for all that time. And the Mamluks. Who were the mongols raiding in 1260? Who was working the land for the crusader states? Who had those crusaders conquered? Who was paying taxes to the Byzantines?
Again, are you assuming that all those people vanished into thin air, at the very same time an equal number of people from somewhere else replaced them?
History did not begin in 1897, Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You can't just declare that arguments you have no ability to answer are "straw men"
From whom were the Ottomans collecting taxes?
Who were the Mamluks ruling?
Who were the people getting raided by Hulegu's forces in 1260?
Who were the fellahim tending fields during the cusader period?
Who were the people tending the fields during the Ayyubid dynasty?
Who were the people raised as conscripts by the Byzantines when the Caliphate invaded?
The Byzantines were collecting Levantine taxes too - from whom?
Can you provide evidence of, at any point, a total annihilation of one people and an immediate replacement with another people, whole-cloth? About the closest history informs me of is the crusader purge of Jerusalem in 1099, which was pretty much total - but there were survivors, and people were moving back into the city from the surrounding area within the year.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Dennis Banks
Bob Robideau
Russell Means
Clyde Bellecourt
Dino Butler
Vernon Bellecourt
John Graham
Leonard Peltier
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the Hamas guy was literally begging Egypt in a manner that could be called crazed for fuel and all though out the video attempting to make any connection he could muster
9. Hamas leader says Palestinians are half Egyptian, half Saudi
View profile
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=384_1333626759
Not even Yasser Arafat was Palestinian, as he was born in Cairo.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134105972#post9
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Everyone knows that the Palestinians are the direct descendants of the original population. Jews too, of course, but fortunately almost nobody talks about Himyarites and Khazars anymore.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 12, 2015, 07:21 AM - Edit history (1)
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It seems as if you're trying to argue against that belief, or either that you believe that the ancestors of the Palestinians didn't come from the original population of Palestine.
But then again, your argumentation is unclear to me, as you seem to be unable to differentiate between ancestry and where someone was born.
shira
(30,109 posts)....that Palestinian Arabs trace all the way back to ancient times. While that's true for some, it's not true for the vast majority & that's a fact. And it matters where someone was born. Arafat was Egyptian. His family roots were Egyptian. Therefore, not indigenous. This is typical for most Palestinians.
EDIT: Being born in Egypt doesn't mean Arafat wasn't indigenous to Israel. My bad. Being born there in addition to his others in his family having lived in Egypt for generations - without evidence they ever lived in Israel - goes to show that in all likelihood Arafat was not indigenous to the land. The evidence wouldn't be there for such claim. However, I corrected this upthread when I did some research into part of his name "al Qudwa", that traces back to Gaza and before that Allepo Syria in the 17th century.
Meanwhile, it's the Jew hating BDS movement falsely portraying "Zionists" as foreign colonial invaders who are oppressing the indigenous people of the region. Worse, Jews are presented as colonial outsiders not entitled to their own sovereign state. President Obama just stated recently that anyone against the existence of a Jewish democratic state is antisemitic. Full Stop.
As to the 'A' charge, let's remember that this is the same racist BDS movement which not only condones real, genuine Apartheid conditions against Palestinians in Lebanon, real as opposed to the false charges against Israel, but also a BDS movement that endorses Apartheid within a future Palestinian state that must be Jew Free in order to be a viable racist state.
Now that more attention (Obama on the Jewish state) has been focused on this anti-Zionist hate movement masquerading as pro- human rights, I'm predicting all Western capitals will soon come down very hard on BDS, resigning it to the dustbin of history where it belongs; alongside the Nazi boycott of Jews. I say "let the shame campaign begin...", and not a moment too soon IMHO.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)all the Jews who have emigrated to Israel, poor shira. Your argument that somebody that is born someplace else lises their identity.
It's laughably wrong.
shira
(30,109 posts).....who they portray as foreign colonist invaders out to oppress the indigenous descendants of Philistines and Canaanites.
So is the BDS assertion of colonial Zionists wrong-headed?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jews are constantly portrayed as foreign European invading colonial oppressors.
Only now you seem to realize how wrong that is, so are you now against BDS'ers doing that?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Pot meet kettle.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You got caught doing it, and can't backtrack out.
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....with no evidence of having lived in Israel or the territories, you have no case for calling him indigenous.
That was my point.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)and contempt fir anything Palestinian. You go out if your way to delegitimize the Palestinian people at every turn, and you get a lot of hides because if it.
It us truly a shameful misadventure that you are on.
I'm embarrassed for you...
shira
(30,109 posts)...claiming to be pro-Palestinian who condone Apartheid against them in Lebanon while ignoring grave human rights violations committed against them in Gaza and the W.Bank by their leaders, including the use of child-soldiers and kids as human shields.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Perhaps you need to say that to yourself every morningwhike you look inthe mirror.
shira
(30,109 posts)....condone Apartheid in Lebanon vs. Palestinians as well as Hamas' brutality against Gazans.
Really, it's not even debatable as you won't even touch it with a 10-foot pole.
It's difficult to hate Palestinians more than that.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Now.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Could you please provide some link that supports your arguments?
I've always heard that all Palestinians can trace their ancestry to the original population, that some of their ancestors were Jewish and that the Arab conquest and the crusades did add to the gene pool but didn't change very much. Also that later immigration from Syria and Egypt was very minor, and that many of them were Palestinian expatriates who moved back to the relative prosperity in the British Mandate.
While I personally don't think it's worthwhile to try to disassociate or diminish the ancestral links to the land for either Jews or Palestinians, it seems as if you have a strong desire to do so.
shira
(30,109 posts)The funniest example of an outright lie was the absurd claim that a certain well-known Palestinian family had roots going back 9000 years in Palestine. Saeb Erekat said his family descended from Canaanites who were there 5500 years before the Jews were ever there (3500 years ago).
And provoked to anger Livni Erekat, who went to Livni by saying 'are you talking about a historical account? Yes, it is the secret of historic, I'm Jericho, was 10 thousand years, the past year has celebrated the birthday of my city, I am proud of the Canaanites son I was 5 thousand and 500 years of the arrival of 'Joshua the son of Nun,' which burned the towns of Jericho before, I would not change historical '.
His family comes from the Arabian Peninsula (Saudi Arabia).
https://www.facebook.com/notes/arekat-family/%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%B9%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%AA/255831057552
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Daniel Pipes — President
And I go have a look at Sourcewatch... Joseph Farah and William Kristol are members of the board? Ilan Berman? Laurent Murawiec? Meyrav Wurmser?
Chaired by David steinman
Oh.
Oh Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)And another....
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/books/review/jerusalem-by-simon-sebag-montefiore-book-review.html?_r=0
You can't elude the facts forever.
shira
(30,109 posts)....whose family goes back 9000 years there.
What'd you think of that doozy?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The notion that an infant born last night in Illinois is more indigenous to Palestine than Palestinians, because people who had a vaguely similar religion to its parents lived there four thousand years ago is as silly as pretending you can trace your family tree back five and a half thousand years (Erekat almost certainly was using "Jews" to refer to the Jewish immigration from Europe.)
They're both silly notions.
However, i'm more concerned about what you're doing using Middle east Forum as your go-to source? C'mon, i know you don't have thehighest standards, but you've gotta have some standards. That place is basically Rense for Zionists.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)ut it's eerie similar to what I remember from reading the Leuchter Report. Unfortunately, I seem to be unable to understand what is argued, even after reading it twice.
As a counter to the link you provided, I would recommend that you read the wikipedia article on the subject. It deals with the subject of Arab immigration to Palestine in depth, which is what i suspect was the subject of your link.
Demographic history of Palestine
Source: Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine
shira
(30,109 posts)Here are some quotes from the time period you won't find with your own sources...
Now what did you think of Saeb Erekat's wild claims of being Canaanite going back 9000 years?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)However, I find it unlikely that every single of his ancestors since the early 1800s are 100% pure Arabian Bedouin, so most probably some of his ancestors goes all the way back to the Canaanites.
It's no good throwing around quotes without context - they prove nothing...
You do know that the area of Palestine has been continously populated since prehistoric times, dont you?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)So 1400 years of continuous residence counts for nothing?
The Cherokee only arrived in Oklahoma(having been forced to march there by Andrew Jackson as part of the "Trail of Tears" in 1835 or so. Does that mean they STOPPED being indigenous?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)is just as deep as that of those who call themselves "Israelis".
What's the harm in admitting that?
You can't really treat them as if they are nothing but squatters after fourteen freaking centuries(and perhaps much longer, since many Palestinians claim descent from the Canaanites).
Peace relies on getting both communities to accept that both have an equal right to be there-and that, between them, both have an equal claim to victimhood and suffering(speaking solely about the Arab-Jewish dynamic, not about the misery in Europe that led to the Zionist movement in the first place, a misery Arabs and other Middle Eastern peoples played no role in causing).
Just admit they both have equal roots in the land...what is there to lose?
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Arabs only arrived in the 7th century AD? Hmmm.....isn't that a thousand years before the first Europeans started to settle on the North American continent? How long does a people have to live on in a land before they are no longer considered squatters?
I have no quarrel with the Jews having a country of their own, but Arab rights need to be respected as well.
shira
(30,109 posts)....have that right, whether the descendants of European settlers in North America or Palestinians.
And yes, Palestinians should have their own state beside Israel.