JVP Dissociates Itself From Alison Weir

[shira]

Interesting cat fight between 2 very extreme hate organizations connected to the BDS movement.

Why It is Unacceptable to Appear on a Platform with White Supremacists and anti-Semites

On May 5th 2015 Jewish Voices for Peace wrote a letter to Alison Weir, of the organisation If Americans Knew, informing her that JVP would not work with her on account of the fact that she has repeatedly appeared on the radio show of a white supremacist and anti-Semite, Clay Douglas.

JVP wrote that ‘Your troubling associations and choices further include giving interviews to a range of far-right outlets including The American Free Press, which the Southern Poverty Law Center has identified as a hate group, and the anti-gay, anti-Jewish pastor Mark Dankof. One of your articles appeared in an anthology that was promoted by the infamous Holocaust-denial organization, the Institute for Historical Review. We see no evidence that you have disavowed any of these outlets or institutions….

At Jewish Voice for Peace, we are particularly sensitive to the long history of anti-Jewish oppression as well as the ways that Palestinian liberation work is frequently tarred with false charges of anti-Semitism.

Because of the publicity this letter garnered, JVP issued, on 15th June, an explanation entitled Jewish Voice for Peace Statement on Our Relationship with Alison Weir. JVP explain that ‘Weir has made clear in her response to our letter that she will proudly continue her practice of pursuing airtime on white supremacist radio shows and other such outlets without refuting, debating, or otherwise decrying their racist, anti-Semitic, and homophobic beliefs.’

more...
http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2015/07/jvp-dissociates-itself-from-alison-weir.html

[shira]

1. OP cont'd...

In what is really a rerun of our own conflict with Gilad Atzmon in Britain, JVP explain that ‘We know full well that the Israel lobby uses false and misleading accusations of anti-Semitism to silence critics of Israeli policies. We have called out that tactic time and time again and stood in defense of those who have been wrongly maligned with this accusation. Nevertheless, this does not mean that all accusations of anti-Semitism are unfair.’

Alison Weir’s defence is basically that she will speak on any platform, including that of white supremacists. It is suggested that it is McCarthyist ‘guilt by association’ to tar her with the same brush. However if you lie down with a dog you will end up with fleas as the old saying goes. To associate with those who believe in white supremacy and anti-Semitism in the name of fighting Zionist racism makes no sense and can only be counter-productive. Alison Weir may indeed be dedicated to Palestinian rights (unlike Gilad Atzmon), she may even be sincere, but as long as she associates with virulent racists she is damaging the cause of Palestine.

An Open Letter in support of Alison Weir has also made an appearance. Included on it are some of the same signatures that signed a similar letter from Atzmon and Mary Rizzo attacking me some years ago. These include: Richard Falk, Mazin Qumsiyeh, Samir Abed-Rabbo, James Petras, David Rovics, Geoff Blankfort and Paul Eisen of Deir Yassin Remembered, whose Holocaust Wars was an open defence of the neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel, who was imprisoned in Germany for holocaust denial.

Jewish Voices for Peace is a very valuable organisation. It has opened up a chink in the hegemonic support of the American Jewish community for Zionism and Israel. It has over 40 chapters and has mustered over 100,000 signatures for a petition. It has steadily moved to an anti-Zionist position and it endorses BDS. If JVP feels the need to dissociate itself from Alison Weir, no sincere supporter of Palestine solidarity should have second thoughts about supporting them.

If anyone needed any convincing, then the article by Gilad Atzmon in support of Alison Weir ‘The Protocols Of The EldersOf ‘Anti’ Zion: JVP vs. Alison Weir’ should convince them.

Tony Greenstein

[shira]

2. Too bad Mondoweiss can't disassociate from Weir too. They actually promote her shit...

For myself, whose activism is around educating on the issue, it is becoming increasingly a “preaching to the choir” scenario at many of our events. But on May 12, I’m hosting Alison Weir (If Americans Knew) in my quaint little village of Cazenovia, New York, and expect we’ll raise some eyebrows with an uninitiated audience. Hopefully the “heroes” of our university system can not touch us at the public library. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/finkelstein-syracuse-opposition#sthash.5sR1Mf2F.dpuf

But really folks, Mondoweiss isn't a hate site. Not at all. Nothing to see here!



Of course, I expect to see many more Mondoweiss articles posted here despite the fact it's a hate site.

[leftynyc]

3. My family always taught me

if you want to know someone, check out who they associate with. That edict has always done well for me.

[shira]

6. Bingo. That's just common sense. n/t

[Little Tich]

4. Interesting.

Weir and IAK definitely don't pass the smell test. Is Weir an anti-Semite then? Well, there are no indications that she isn't, which is quite significant for someone who has written extensively on the IP conflict.

But what's Gilad Atzmon got to do with this? Why would he be an anti-Semite?

[shira]

5. There's no question both Weir and Atzmon are antisemites....

Last edited Thu Jul 23, 2015, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)

You probably question whether a Jew can actually be an antisemite. Well yeah, Jews can definitely be antisemites. They're antisemites if they endorse, defend, and advocate the same things non-Jewish antisemites spew.

Here's an article with links to some of Atzmon's degeneracy...
http://hurryupharry.org/2015/01/04/galloway-and-the-david-duke-fan/

[Little Tich]

7. I remain unconvinced when it comes to Atzmon.

He seems to be completely unable to say anything that's not completely inappropriate, but that doesn't make him an anti-Semite.

I had a peek at the IAK website, though, and it's just crap. Perhaps delusional is too strong for describing the views promoted there, but it's detached from reality and very one-sided. I can easily see how the demonization of an imaginary enemy can translate into anti-Semitism in the real world. While it sort of looks unintentional, they probably just don't care that their zealotry has descended into anti-Semitism. That's no excuse however, as they hate Jews just as much as any other anti-Semites.

[shira]

8. Seriously? If you can't see Atzmon's blatant Jew hatred, you have no clue....

....as to what constitutes anti-semitism, and therefore you can't possibly be taken seriously on anything related to Israel.

[Little Tich]

9. I think our views on anti-Semitism differ due to my emphasis on meaning rather than expression.

[shira]

10. What do you think about holocaust deniers? Are they legit critics?

Here's Atzmon denying the holocaust, as well as praising and distributing the work of holocaust deniers:
http://ukmediawatch.org/2015/03/10/a-brief-intro-to-gilad-atzmons-holocaust-denial-aka-george-galloways-pillow-talk/

At the end of that article, you'll see Atzmon arguing that the holocaust was a response to the Jews' declaration of war against Germany.

===============

Here's the ADL on Atzmon:

Holocaust Diminution

Gilad Atzmon engages in Holocaust diminution. He uses language and references that are appealing to, and have been cited by, some of the world's best known Holocaust deniers, including David Duke and Ernst Zundel, who claimed that Atzmon had described the Holocaust as a "forgery."

He defends the right of Holocaust deniers to challenge historical narratives and offer revisionist theories and has circulated and quoted from the works of Paul Eisen, a British Holocaust denier who claims that the "Holocaust narrative and its enforcement are major arms of Jewish or Zionist power."

In his most recent book, The Wandering Who, Atzmon envisions a scenario where Israel pre-emptively strikes Iran and the result is an all-out war. He then writes, "I guess that amongst the survivors of such a nightmare scenario, some may be bold enough to argue that [font color = "red"]'Hitler might have been right after all[/font].'"

You still wanna claim there's nothing to see here? That this is legit criticism?

[shira]

11. From that same ADL article. About Atzmon's anti-semitism...

http://archive.adl.org/main_anti_semitism_international/gilad-atzmon-anti-semite.html#.VbIw-RNViko

Anti-Semitism

Many of Atzmon's writings are infected with blatant anti-Semitism. He legitimizes anti-Semitic rhetoric (and even crimes) as rational responses to Zionism

In an August 2009 article about an attack on a gay center in Tel Aviv, Atzmon alleged that democracy and tolerance are "foreign to the spirit of Jewishness." He also explained the attack as emblematic of the Israelis' "murderous lethal tactics" and charged that "the Jewish state…is one of the least tolerant places on this planet. It is fuelled by hatred towards others and Otherness."

During an address at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London in 2005, Atzmon went so far as to legitimize hate crimes against Jews, saying, "I'm not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act."

Atzmon authored an article titled "On Anti-Semitism" in 2003 that remains his most virulently anti-Semitic piece to date. In the article, Atzmon alleged that "Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus" and that Jewish outrage in response to the deicide charge only served to further prove their accountability. He also argued that anti-Semitic acts and attitudes are "political responses" to Zionism and cannot be interpreted as racially motivated or irrational incidents of anti-Semitism.

In the article, he posits that Israel benefits from anti-Semitism because it engenders global support for Israel and that Israel therefore engages in behavior toward Palestinians that will spur anti-Semitic reactions, a phenomenon he calls "the Zionist perpetuum mobile."

[shira]

12. And now I'm curious. What have you read from Atzmon that leads you to believe.....

....that his criticism is legitimate & therefore not hateful?

[Little Tich]

13. I can't see how illegitimate (whatever that is) criticism would signify anti-Semitism.

Atzmon is a tough cookie with a potty mouth. But an anti-Semite? Nah...

We'll just have to disagree on that.

[shira]

14. Holy shit! Did you read #11 above? Okay, 3 quick YES/NO questions for you...

Here are parts of it, once again:

In an August 2009 article about an attack on a gay center in Tel Aviv, Atzmon alleged that democracy and tolerance are "foreign to the spirit of Jewishness." He also explained the attack as emblematic of the Israelis' "murderous lethal tactics" and charged that "the Jewish state…is one of the least tolerant places on this planet. It is fuelled by hatred towards others and Otherness."

Jew hate? Yes or No?

During an address at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London in 2005, Atzmon went so far as to legitimize hate crimes against Jews, saying, "I'm not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act."

Jew hate? Yes or No?

Atzmon authored an article titled "On Anti-Semitism" in 2003 that remains his most virulently anti-Semitic piece to date. In the article, Atzmon alleged that "Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus" and that Jewish outrage in response to the deicide charge only served to further prove their accountability. He also argued that anti-Semitic acts and attitudes are "political responses" to Zionism and cannot be interpreted as racially motivated or irrational incidents of anti-Semitism.

Jew hate? Yes or No?

[shira]

15. You may be the only DU'er here who doesn't believe Holocaust Denial is anti-semitic.

Not just here in I/P, but all of DU.

Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples. For this reason, Holocaust denial is considered to be an antisemitic [10] conspiracy theory,[11] is frequently criticized, and is illegal in several countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

[leftynyc]

17. I'm about as disgusted as I've ever

been and that's really saying something on the I/P board at DU. Holocaust denial not being anti-semetic. Now I've heard it all. Fucking pathetic.

[shira]

20. I'm shaking my head. It's unreal. n/t

[shira]

42. Bumping this due to EUMC working definition of antisemitism just adopted....

...by 31 liberal democracatic countries.

This entire thread shows exactly why such a definition is needed.

[Little Tich]

18. There are no instances of holocaust denial that I know of that were not anti-Semitic.

[shira]

19. Great! So Atzmon (holocaust denier) is an anti-semite, correct?

What other conclusion can there be?

[Little Tich]

25. No. n/t

[leftynyc]

24. So are you now admitting

this vile person is an anti-semite? Because less than a half hour ago your response was "nah".

[Little Tich]

26. No. n/t

[leftynyc]

28. So - to recap

Thinking burning down a synagogue (not in Israel but everywhere) is fine, denying the holocaust is fine, defending holocaust deniers is fine. But you don't consider this vile piece of shit an anti-semite. Well, I just lost every ounce of respect I ever had for you.

[leftynyc]

16. You don't think a holocaust denier

and someone who praises the work of holocaust deniers is an anti-semite? Seriously?

[shira]

21. Or that burning down synagogues is a rational act; that all Jews R responsible 4 killing Jesus....

That anti-semitic acts are just political responses to Zionism.



Nothing to see here! Atzmon legitimately criticizes Israel. Deal with it you fascist Zionist racists!

[leftynyc]

22. The I/P board

is an embarrassment to thinking people. I simply cannot believe that poster is making excuses for this piece of crap bigot. Disgusting.

[Little Tich]

23. It's not so simple.

Atzmon is playing with inflammatory statements just as well as he plays the sax - which is very well. Unfortunately, he knows what he's doing, and his primary goal in life seems to be to piss people off. I simply can't pin him down as an anti-Semite.

[leftynyc]

27. Did you read what Shira posted?

And after all that you can't call him an anti-semite. What the fuck would it take? Are you so invested in all the Palestinians supporters you can't even admit what is obvious? He denies the holocaust and praises the work of others that deny the holocaust? Why are you turning yourself into a pretzel defending that? I think that's pretty fucking pathetic.

[Little Tich]

29. Let's not be upset about this one guy.

He's certainly a special case, and we differ on whether someone can say the damndest things about Jews and the holocaust and still not be an anti-Semite.

I don't feel that my views on anti-Semitism are very controversial in general - it's basically just this one guy that's the problem.

[leftynyc]

30. Just this one guy?

You think this is the only person that is a holocaust denier? It's obvious have zero idea what you're talking about and I believe I'll call this piece of crap who denies that I lost 80 in my family to those nazi animals anything I damn well please. We're done here.

[shira]

31. And this one guy, despite what he's written about Jews & the Holocaust....

...isn't an antisemite. That's unreal.

Presumably, if Alison Weir said the same thing, then she couldn't be labeled an antisemite either? Yes or No?

[Little Tich]

32. I know that we are quite far apart on the subject of ant-Semitism.

Perhaps if you were less inclined to support the use of anti-Semitism for political purposes, I would give your arguments more credit. But the way things stand, I think you're hopelessly lost in a mire of bias.

As for Weir, she just doesn't have the ability to pull it off.

[shira]

33. That's a low blow, accusing someone of making up accusations of antisemitism....

.....for political purposes.

I'm wondering what it would take for you to conclude Atzmon is an antisemite? What do you need to see?

Because once you see that he fits your criteria, I want you take back that insulting accusation.

Deal?

IMO, it's far worse to minimize, ignore, explain-away, or deny clear anti-semitism due to political leanings than what you're asserting. In a way I agree with you, as I believe false accusations of antisemitism are not only wrong but very harmful to Jewish interests.

[Little Tich]

34. I hope you just try to misunderstand me on purpose.

I accused you of the support of the use of anti-Semitism for political purposes, not you actually using it. That's a big difference, supporting something isn't actually doing it.

When it comes to Atzmon, I can unfortunately see what he's doing, and all his statements are designed to be racist and OTT in the eyes of their beholders, while actually not crossing any lines real lines. I grew up reading comics like "Illustrated Stories From The Bible " by Paul Farrell, Ed the happy clown by Chester Brown, and of course anything by Robert Crumb. For me, Atzmon is very similar to these, but without the illustrations, and also without being funny.

[shira]

35. I'd still like to know what Atzmon needs to say in order to an antisemite....

...in your opinion.

You didn't have any problem tagging Weir with that label. What did Weir say that clinched it for you?

[Little Tich]

36. It's all about meaning (or intent) vs expression.

Everything Weir says is probably anti-Semitic because she's an anti-Semite. However, nothing that Atzmon says makes him an anti-Semite if he isn't.

Weir is easy, she's pushing an agenda that's awfully one-sided and full of holes, and she fails to understand that her demonization of her enemy exactly translates into anti-Semitism if brought into the real world.


So it was all about that stale, but familiar smell...

[shira]

37. Seriously? She's probably antisemitic b/c she's an antisemite?

So how do you know for sure?

Weir is easy, she's pushing an agenda that's awfully one-sided and full of holes, and she fails to understand that her demonization of her enemy exactly translates into anti-Semitism if brought into the real world.

This describes a lot of antizionists. How do you distinguish between the good and the rotten ones?

Once again, what exactly would you need to see from Atzmon that would lead to you to conclude he's a Jew hating POS?

[Little Tich]

38. You have to use your judgement...

In my experience, a racist can't hide behind other issues - the true target becomes evident eventually.

[shira]

39. So what you're saying is you know it when you see it. There is nothing....

....in particular that would lead you to believe someone is an antisemite: just a gut reaction.

Is that right?

[Little Tich]

40. No, no...

The problem is that it's very complex to argue for someones true motivations when they're not readily apparent. It's all about inductive arguments, more or less cogent, and then trying to fit it into a deductive conclusion.

In a way, this is little bit of a standoff, as there are statements that clearly shows that a person is a racist, there are statements that indicate that a person may be / probably is a racist, and finally there are statement that don't indicate anything.

When it comes to anti-Semitism, which I see as a subgroup of racism, I think we agree that there are these three types of statements, but we fundamentally disagree on which kind of statements constitute these groups.

We also seem to disagree on what anti-Semitism is on very fundamental level, as for me anti-Semitism isn't actually what I'm against - I'm against racism, and my views on anti-Semitism are actually my views on racism. And then we also disagree on whether attacks on things suposedly connected to Jews, like Zionism and Israel, if those attacks would be anti-Semitic.

All in all, I would say that you let your bias lead you a little bit too much, so that you think that those who criticize Israel and Zionism are somehow driven by anti-Semitism when they actually aren't.

[shira]

41. So what statements would "clearly show that a person is a racist"?

In this case, antisemite.

Thanks.

[shira]

43. Throughout this thread, you denied Atzmon was an antisemite despite...

....being a Holocaust Denier, rationalizing the firebombing of synagogues, etc.

[Little Tich]

44. I've recanted on Atzmon - what more do you want?

This thread was from before I knew about Atzmon supporting the anti-Semitic arguments of his anti-Semite buddies and I've changed my opinion accordingly.

[shira]

45. There are many different examples in this thread. You denied each one.

Are you now saying each and every example throughout this thread demonstrates Atzmon's antisemitism?

Or are you still unconvinced?

I can see you're uneasy about these particular examples & that's all I really need to see. You can't and won't defend them, but will you acknowledge each one is antisemitic? I'm not sure you will, knowing what that means for the antisemitic Palestinian cause.

[Little Tich]

46. I've recanted on Atzmon - what more do you want?

This thread was from before I knew about Atzmon supporting the anti-Semitic arguments of his anti-Semite buddies and I've changed my opinion accordingly.

[shira]

47. I'm just trying to understand....

Take out the fact that Atzmon supports Holocaust denying antisemites. I just wonder why none of the other examples clued you in on his antisemitism: eg. Jews as Christ-Killers, Atzmon's own Holocaust Denial, burning down a synagogue, democracy/tolerance foreign to "Jewishness", Jews trying to control the world, questioning whether Jews really did use the blood of christian children to bake matzos, etc.

Am I correct to assume that these examples are not racist/antisemitic in your view?

[Little Tich]

48. I think it would be possible to draw a parallell between Atzmon and Nietzsche's argumentation in

Both attack ideas, not people. Both of them draw grandiose conclusions from evidence that doesn't really support that kind of inference. And both use strong language that's intended to annoy people.

I'm not really interested in discussing Atzmon - it would be much better if you had a discussion about him with someone who actually appreciated him.

The Antichrist (book)
Source: Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Antichrist_(book)

BTW, posting an identical post twice was unintentional.

[shira]

49. I'm trying to discuss these ideas, not Atzmon himself.

1. Claim Jews as a collective are Christ-Killers
2. Claim that burning down a synagogue is rational
3. Democracy/tolerance foreign to "Jewishness"
4. Jews trying to control the world...
5. Questioning whether Jews really did use the blood of christian children to bake matzos

These are centuries old tropes that Jew haters use to attack Jews.

=============

Forget Atzmon, the vast majority of Jews and liberals (not leftists) would agree that those 5 examples are overwhelming evidence that a person who maintains those views is antisemitic.

Now you believe that if someone holds to those 5 views, it proves nothing. Correct? You would need more convincing?

[Little Tich]

50. If your accusations were true, then Atzmon's argumentation would of course be anti-Semitic.

But I've found no evidence of that. Hypotheticals aren't inherently anti-Semitic even if they contain anti-Semitic imagery.

I'm going to drop this subject, because I'm losing interest. Sorry.

[shira]

51. Accusations? You don't believe Atzmon made those claims?

Who cares whether he made them or not. Assume he didn't and someone else did. You'd agree that's proof the person is an antisemite? Just to be clear.

----------------

We're discussing actual examples of antisemitism and you want to run away.

Typical.

[cali]

53. He is as blatantly antisemitic as can be found. If you actually can't see that.....

[Little Tich]

55. But Atzmon is indeed an anti-Semite...

This thread was from before another poster showed me that Atzmon was endorsing the anti-Semitic views of anti-Semites. I do change my opinion about things if the proof is overwhelming...

However, I maintain that Atzmon hasn't written anything anti-Semitic. His "The Wandering Who?" is provoking, but not anti-Semitic. I have no real interest in explaining how this can be, and unless you manage to bring up an angle I haven't seen yet, I won't reply.

[shira]

57. What Atzmon has written is absurdly antisemitic according to the new working definition....

....of antisemitism just adopted by all western democratic nations. And of course, according to probably 99% of all Jews.

That makes his writing antisemitic.

Case closed.

[shira]

54. Now that Cali responded to this, it's unreal you can't see the antisemitism at the IAK website....

That's Alison Weir's sewer.

[Little Tich]

56. I've already stated twice in this thread that the IAK is an anti-Semitic site.

Post # 7:

I had a peek at the IAK website, though, and it's just crap. Perhaps delusional is too strong for describing the views promoted there, but it's detached from reality and very one-sided. I can easily see how the demonization of an imaginary enemy can translate into anti-Semitism in the real world. While it sort of looks unintentional, they probably just don't care that their zealotry has descended into anti-Semitism. That's no excuse however, as they hate Jews just as much as any other anti-Semites.

Post #4:

Weir and IAK definitely don't pass the smell test. Is Weir an anti-Semite then? Well, there are no indications that she isn't, which is quite significant for someone who has written extensively on the IP conflict.

When it comes to actual anti-Semitism, I'm always and totally against.

[LeftishBrit]

52. Good for them. She's a very dodgy type.

[shira]

58. Mondoweiss on the fence regarding antisemite, Alison Weir

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/roundtable-palestinian-solidarity

Tells you all one needs to know about Mondoweiss.

[shira]

59. About 100 JVP signatories on letter in support of Alison Weir....

Along with many other "human rights" advocates.

Voices for peace? No, racist Jew hating gutter antisemites, holocaust deniers....

An open letter to the U.S. Campaign and other Activists for Justice in Palestine

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1oyHWpfZtMvDez5XThztcbRMbgzQqMnCibkVk4Rjh3Hw/viewform

As active participants in the struggle for justice for Palestinians, coming from a variety of ethnic, religious, and political backgrounds, we call for an end to internal attacks on fellow activists and organizations. These only impede the work for justice.

We appreciate the important contributions to that cause made over many years by If Americans Knew, Jewish Voice for Peace, and the U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation.

In that light, we are dismayed by the recent unfounded attacks on one of the top organizations working on this issue, If Americans Knew, and its dedicated leader, Alison Weir, by the leadership of Jewish Voice for Peace and the U.S. Campaign. Many of us are members of these groups and are unhappy at these significant actions made in our name but without consulting us.