Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe ‘Pallywood’ smear: Viral images of Palestinian boy’s brutalization brings backlash
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/09/palestinian-brutalization-pallywoodIt appears that some people are just now waking up to this reality. That these protests, like other protests and demonstrations throughout history, are intended to garner attention and change facts on the ground. If the cameras were not there, armed Israeli forces would still chase, capture, arrest and detain Palestinians, including their children. The point of the recordings for the Tamimi family is to get the message out to the world.
The reason the video went viral is that most people object to a policy of targeting, abducting and imprisoning children. But in Palestine, soldiers enter villages, sometimes in broad daylight, sometimes in the middle of the night, and take children away. Here’s another example of grabbing a child in Nabi Saleh:
Are the soldiers being set up to star as villains in a “Pallywood” video? If so, one would think Israel should stop targeting Palestinian children. And stop invading villages in the middle of the night. But no. Ayed Abu Eqtaish, accountability program director at Defense for Children International-Palestine (DCIP), told The Arab Weekly 700 children were put on trial in Israeli military courts in 2014.
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shira
(30,109 posts)In the caption of the photo that looks like this...
https://twitter.com/MirandaMirna/status/637617914242174976
...we see that Mondoweiss admits it was an ambush. It's right here in the caption below the 2nd of 3 pictures...
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/israeli-soldier-assaulting
Same Annie Robbins penned that article as well as this OP. It's hilarious that these Mondo-Morons don't realize just how comically stupid they are.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
Those that wish to distort the truth will often add a grain of it in with their brand of fertilizer.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
shira
(30,109 posts).....proving beyond any doubt this was part of a series of staged events at Nabi Saleh.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Please splain it all away!
shira
(30,109 posts)A running reminder as to why no Democrats in power are anti-Zionists, in favor of BDS, etc.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)was forced to see the light of its wrongs.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts) 
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I'm wondering, because my initial reaction is complete disgust, and I think that if this was done in the US, the police who did the arrest would be sacked and the Police Department would have big lawsuits coming their way...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)PASCO, Wash. — In the fourth fatal police shooting here in six months, a man was killed as he ran a half block from police with his arms outstretched and then turned around.
Police say orchard worker Antonio Zambrano-Montes, 35, hit two officers with rocks when they shot him Tuesday evening at a busy intersection here.
His family said he was holding a rock.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/13/police-shooting-pasco/23348565/
Edit to add: Do you not live in the United States?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Do you have any examples from the US where the police arrest 11 year olds in a very confrontational manner like in the clip, and whisk them away from their parents without letting them accompany them?
I completely fail to see the connection between an adult being shot and the brutal arrest of an 11 year old boy.
shira
(30,109 posts)http://patch.com/new-hampshire/portsmouth-nh/portsmouth-police-log-child-arrested-throwing-rocks-building
Not for rocks thrown at cars or people as Palestinian children do constantly, but arrested for throwing rocks at a building.
======================
From June, 2015:
(Video) Dashcam video shows officers assaulted before shooting
http://www.cnn.com/videos/justice/2015/06/01/dashcam-video-officers-assaulted-before-shooting-valencia-dnt-erin.cnn
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)At leat you can prove that young kids can be arrested in the US (of course, duh), but you can't show a single instance of the police snatching kids off the street like in the clip, which was my point.
shira
(30,109 posts)Try getting your own children to do so.
See what happens.
What you see from Israel is extremely tame in comparison.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
Mosby
(16,260 posts)That doesn't concern you?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The police were obviously doing something wrong, and the bystanders called them out on that. I think that people should stand up to the police when they misbehave, otherwise it'll be a police state. Respect for law and order goes both ways.
shira
(30,109 posts)Did you see the pics the pics with the boy who had a cast on his left arm vs. a cast on his right one?
Did you see the video of that same boy being pushed into the police?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The picture was from behind and the cast was on the other arm...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....in order to provoke some kind of reaction from the soldiers.
But this child abuse doesn't seem to concern you at all.
I believe the adults would be arrested here in the US and Australia for doing that. What do you think?
===========
The soldier overreacted and did exactly what the ISM and BDS'ers wanted him to do.
Do you get that?
It was a huge success for the BDS'ers, fascists, Hamasniks, etc.
That should make you sick.
shira
(30,109 posts)Just as she was waiting for the camera before this provocation....
Later on in the above video starting at 2:30, the brother is being pushed into soldiers in order to provoke a reaction for the cameras. The same brother with the cast on his arm in this latest episode.
================
And the payoff? Why of course, the leader of the PA & allegedly moderate Mahmoud Abbas....who sanctions this child abuse.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)And poor you, so upset that the young lady is making sure that this IDfu@ker violence is caught on camera for the world to see, but please explain away with your excuse machine if you can.
shira
(30,109 posts)...in order to goad them into a reaction for the cameras?
What a joke.
The violence you see in the video is tame compared to anywhere else. I dare you to do that with American, UK, or French troops. And you'd be arrested here in America for pushing your children into armed soldiers.
Now for anyone else keeping up....notice how video evidence of these staged events went totally ignored once again? Same shit, same script by the Mondoweiss loving BDS crowd. When refuted, steer the conversation into another direction...
How pathetic.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
?itok=AXXrEkn6×tamp=1399470276
The Palestinians are at least fighting for their lives, whereas the Israelis are trying to take it all away from them
shira
(30,109 posts).....by putting them into potential harm's way in provoking armed soldiers?
Ashamed?
Embarrassed?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)can't have it both ways, so which is it?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)He only let's go when a male bystander intervenes. When it comes to both clips however, I must wonder why there are so many cameras when the IDF shows up. It's almost as if the IDF insists on provoking the demonstrators by showing up fully armed and with an attitude. Any peaceful demonstration becomes a riot when the riot control shows up, it happens all the time. Did you see the soldiers laughing in the second clip? Whatever they did that made the civilians in the clip so angry, they're obviously proud of it.
While I think it's slightly reckless to have children confront armed soldiers, there could be a very good reason for this, because if the demonstrators would have been male adults, they automatically get the full IDF treatment which can be quite impairing, while women and children don't get beaten up or shot as often.
It's interesting that we can watch the same two clips and draw very different conclusions.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)their cameras.
It's obviously successful, and I hope B'Tselem distributes more cameras. My only caveat is that the IDF soldiers could be named and shamed, which would be wrong, as they're under orders, and the shame should fall on the IDF.
shira
(30,109 posts)....being bad & using it for propaganda value. When it's difficult to catch Jews being bad, provoke & bully them, then catch them. Or just make the whole thing up from scratch.
Rinse, repeat.
=================
I know, I know....you don't believe it. So tell me, what kind of evidence do you need to prove it - and how much?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)to behave badly, simply because soldiers are supposed to follow rules and orders at all times. If they can't keep their cool under pressure, they shouldn't be on combat duty, they should be sweeping the barracks instead. Can you imagine serving next to these idiots if they come under fire and start flipping out?
It's very fundamental that the keepers of order never lose their cool and start lashing out at civilians.
shira
(30,109 posts)...before screaming at the soldier & faking a punch? Or the boy being pushed into the soldiers?
How do you explain that? This should be good...
If they can't keep their cool under pressure, they shouldn't be on combat duty, they should be sweeping the barracks instead.
That's why they're smiling. They know not to react & give the propagandists their red meat.
Show me another militia on the planet that would react better than the IDF in that video, in response to one of their soldiers being ambushed by a group of people.
Can you do it?
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 2, 2015, 06:36 AM - Edit history (1)
.....deliberately in order to provoke a reaction that can be used for propaganda purposes - like in the video above that shows the same girl 3 years ago waiting for the camera before she goes to town yelling at the IDF officer & faking punches at him.
This goading and provocation was the intent of the ISM & the result is exactly what they wanted. The more they can use children, the better the propaganda value. It's all an act. Yasser Arafat said it best years ago when it comes to getting children hurt or killed. Learn from that. It's the same thing happening now.
The IDF troops are laughing because the whole situation is so fucking insane.
I believe the IDF needs to install its own cameras everywhere in order to capture all the images and expose these handlers from the ISM for the child-abusing, sick fuckers they are. I have no damned clue why this hasn't been done already.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"Viral images of Palestinian boy’s brutalization"
Anyone who can't see what Mondoweiss is from that headline and this article is just willfully blind.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts) shira
(30,109 posts).....so that it can be used to defame, delegitimize, and incite hatred against Israel and its supporters.
This morally bankrupt advocacy only shows the compassion-abusing degeneracy of those who masquerade as humanitarians claiming to care about Palestinian children.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)?itok=AXXrEkn6×tamp=1399470276shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Your perpetual apologia for Israeli brutality shows what you are about.
shira
(30,109 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Team Hasbara really sticks to their script
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or would you just express disgust that such bigoted garbage was posted here?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and in fact the person appears older than the kid
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You can't see the boy's face in photo # 1, and he appears to be older that the boy in photo #2.
So you are either using a bad comparison, or are blinded to reason.
But please explain it some more. Tell me about epic fails and I will provide you a mirror to gaze at yourself with.
GeoWilliam750
(2,521 posts)How long does it take for a broken arm to heal?
My understanding is that it is typically 6-8 weeks in an adult, although undoubtedly it would depend on the severity of the fracture. Young people apparently tend to heal more quickly, sometimes in 2-3 weeks for very minor fractures - according to the NHS link below.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/broken-arm/Pages/Introduction.aspx
The two photographs you link to show a boy in a cast on his right arm on May 20th, and then suggest that this is the same boy with a cast on his left arm on August 28th, more than 14 weeks later. You seem to suggest that if it was the same boy, the cast should still be on his right arm more than 14 weeks later. This seems an unusually long time for a fracture to heal, especially in somebody already ambulent in the first photo.
Perhaps we can ask our resident teaching surgeon who also volunteers at Tel Hashomer. Although it might be outside of his surgical specialty, this would seem relatively basic. King_David, what is the typical time for a range of fractures in the ulna or radius or wrist to heal? Is more than 14 weeks common? Is the NHS article linked above wildly off the mark?
Is the cast even the same length? Appears not to be.
Are you saying that Palestinian families routinely have their 11 year old sons walk around all the time wearing the same cast, sometimes on the right arm, sometimes on the left, just waiting for an opportune moment to sucker some soldier into separating himself from his unit by chasing little boys into a group of women who can then humiliate him by wresting the little boy from the highly agitated soldier who is carrying an automatic weapon?
shira
(30,109 posts)
The reason the boy's cast is suspicious is due to miltiple staged protests in Nabi Saleh. It wouldn't even register on anyone's radar had it not been for all the ISM's attempted con jobs from the past.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)is the inconvenient fact that these brutalities are actually taking place in Palestine, a country that has been illegally occupied by the IDF since 1967.
A country that is steadily shrinking due to the constant land theft by the Israeli government.
A country that has no control over its own borders.
A country that is being transformed into a Middle East version of apartheid era South Africa, where there are two classes of people and two sets of laws.
Propagandists can argue about technicalities in any video/report, but they generally ignore the facts of apartheid, land theft, and brutality.
shira
(30,109 posts)....in order to defame Israel, make it a pariah, incite hatred, etc.
1. You're wrong about the occupation being illegal. You have nothing to base that on.
2. Palestine isn't shrinking when Israel limits settlement growth to within existing settlement blocs.
3. It's nowhere close to S.Africa. Otherwise, the EU, USA, UN, and PA wouldn't have signed on to the terms laid out in the Oslo 1 and 2 agreements back in the 90's.
4. Do you really know what brutality is? Tell me, which is more brutal in the video....the IDF soldier with the kid....or the women beating the soldier?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)1) Occupation is illegal. The Israeli occupation is not really occupation for that matter. It is annexation.
2) Settlements have expanded greatly since 1967. There are abundant resources and sites devoted to this. You may ignore, but you cannot change reality by ignoring it.
3) Palestine is not physically close to South Africa. That part of your statement is correct.
4) The armed IDF soldier was beating a child who has a broken arm. Unseen in the video, the soldier threw a stun grenade at the crowd of civilians after he walked away.
"The soldier struggles with the boy, and then the female crowd, which ripped the mask off his face, for about a minute before a commanding officer arrives to assist him. The soldier then frees himself and releases the boy, angrily throwing a small stun grenade at a group of people as he walks away."
http://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/video-shows-palestinian-women-israeli-soldier-scuffling-1.365394
And since you spoke of child abuse that gives me a nice introduction to my next cite:
"Israeli forces are choking, beating, and abusing Palestinian children as young as 11, arresting and coercing them into confessions without granting them access to lawyers or even informing their parents of their whereabouts, a new investigation from Human Rights Watch reveals.
The findings are contained in a report—Israel: Security Forces Abuse Palestinian Children—based on interviews with six children between the ages of 11 and 15, and corroborated by witness testimony and video evidence. All of the children were accused of throwing rocks between March and December 2014—a common charge that can lead to decades in prison.
Israel has been on notice for years that its security forces are abusing Palestinian children’s rights in occupied territory, but the problems continue," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director for HRW. "These are not difficult abuses to end if the Israeli government were serious about doing so."
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/07/20/new-probe-exposes-horrific-child-abuse-israeli-forces
I await your "explanation" for these inconvenient facts.
shira
(30,109 posts)You didn't disprove the fact that settlement expansion happens within EXISTING settlement blocs, not outside them.
You have no explanation for the terms agreed to at Oslo 1 and 2, blessed by the nations of the world - including the PA - which allegedly made Apartheid in the W.Bank kosher.
The soldier was restraining the child, not beating him. Do you know what happens to people in other civilized countries when they throw rocks at officers? This is very tame in comparison.
Your responses add up to little more than "nuh-uh" and "because I say so".
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)You forgot to respond about the stun grenade and the reports of child abuse by the IDF.
shira
(30,109 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
As to child abuse, I'm not getting into a shitting match. I don't expect you to have a problem with this latest child abuse at Nabi Saleh when it appears you have no problem with Hamas using little children as child soldiers & human shields in Gaza.
That tells me all I need to know about your concern for Palestinian children.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Subtext: "I'm cornered and will back away."
Classy, shira, classy.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's easy. Just say YES.
When you start condemning Hamas, for example, for using kids as soldiers & human shields.....then you may consider preaching morality to the Israelis.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)at a group of civilians?
Question: Do you know what a stun grenade is? A hint, it is NOT a firecracker.
As to the non-lethal aspects of stun grenades:
A SWAT officer has died after he was checking a stun grenade in his home when it went off.
Officer Fred Thornton was rushed to hospital for emergency surgery but doctors were unable to save him.
The 50-year-old veteran, who was the longest serving SWAT officer on the Charlotte-Mecklenburg force in North Carolina and had previously helped in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, was just months away from becoming eligible for retirement.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361010/Veteran-SWAT-officer-killed-home-stun-grenade-safety-checking-explodes.html
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 5, 2015, 05:37 AM - Edit history (1)
....Hamas for using children as human shields and combatants. That would require first acknowledging these war crimes. And then I want to see condemnation of the latest from Nabi Saleh where anti-Zionist activists put kids in potential harm's way to confront and attack soldiers and police. Again, that means acknowledging it first as fact.
Can you do that? I'm not going to be put on the defensive, answer first, and get deflections, insults, & denials in return.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)anti-Zionists in general, but proceeding on the second assumption:
I have never defended the PA or Hamas, nor have I held then up as examples to the world, but I have seen some here defend Israel against any and all charges. If the Israelis are shown to have targeted children and civilians, and there is abundant evidence in support of these charges, to reply that the Israelis are not as bad as another country is hardly a defense.
Second, to target all anti-Zionists and further accuse them of supporting Hamas, Fatah, etc., as you did in the second paragraph, is pure ad hominem attack and undeserving of a response. The equal would be to accuse all Israelis of complicity in the war crimes of a few.
Not sure if this qualifies as a moral, compassionate, and decent answer, but unless and until both sides in the conflict can find a way to coexist that does not involve endless war, there is little reason to expect a settlement. That applies to this forum as well as the actual conflict in Palestine.
shira
(30,109 posts)....for abusing children (as in the OP above) and using them as human shields, & combatants. Where's condemnation of that in particular?
We can both generally condemn both sides and hope for peace, but that's the easy way out. You asked me about something in particular after I asked you the same.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)According to your source, 42% of the West bank is controlled by the Israelis. And you consider THIS to be proof of the tiny footprint of the Israeli land theft?
And of that 42%, how much is arable land, land with water, and actual valuable land? Your own source condemns the Israeli government for seizing all the valuable land, walling off the rest, and condemning the remaining Palestinians to a "Bantustan" type existence.
Interesting, and sad, that this is your defence of the Israelis. That they ONLY control 42% of another country.
shira
(30,109 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)where no Palestinians are allowed to go equates to land theft. No amount of semantics and whitewashing can hide this brutal fact.
If I entered your 10 room house and moved into one of the rooms, and then I locked the doors of 3 more rooms, effectively denying you access to 40% of your house, how would you treat my actions?
I would think that you would call the police. But if the police refused to act, what then would your reaction be?
And THAT is what the Palestinians have witnessed and endured since the initial land theft of 1967.
And the 1967 land theft followed by 20 years the initial, UN sanctioned, land theft of 1948.
shira
(30,109 posts)....to any one of 3 offers from Israel in this century (2000, 2001, 2008) that would have granted the Palestinians their own state with E.Jerusalem as capital, no more settlements, & no more occupation?
A thieving nation does not offer the Palestinians nearly everything they claim they want. The situation is insane, as Israel is trying to get a divorce and settle but the Palestinians are saying "No, you're still beating me". A desperate people yearning for their own state doesn't reject such offers. It's unimaginable thinking the Kurds, Basques, or Tibetans would reject offers giving them nearly everything they want.
This is why no Democrats see it your way. Your claims aren't credible.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Of course she did. Why bother trying to defend the indefensible?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)To those who cannot admit that Israel might be in the wrong, there can be no answer to this type of accusation
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 5, 2015, 06:45 AM - Edit history (1)
....when Israel cannot be blamed.
Those who refuse to condemn Hamas, Fatah, & fascist anti-Zionist activists for their use of Palestinian children as political props have a helluva lot of nerve preaching morality to the Israelis.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Is this how Israel distinguishes itself from the surrounding countries?
As to Hamas abusing children by using them as human shields, your regular contention, does locating the IDF Headquarters in a residential area of Tel Aviv amount to the same tactic for the Israelis?
For those who hold up Israel as an example of a modern democracy, for those who claim Israeli moral superiority, to miss the fact that Israel treats all Palestinians as targets completely negates your claims.
shira
(30,109 posts)All of Israel's most hostile critics accusing the Jewish state of Naziism, colonialism, etc.. tend to be neo-fascist degenerates (supporters of Hamas war crimes) who have no business lecturing anyone about morality. An example is the UN, dominated by a supermajority bloc of non-democracies that have deplorable human rights records. Another example is the BDS movement, funded by the same reactionary, extremist governments that fund ISIS (Qatar & Iran for example).
Tell you what...
Name a credible liberal organization (not sympathetic to fascists - good luck on that one) which accuses Israel of the worst and should be taken seriously.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)First, brand any organization that criticizes the actions of the Israeli government as neo-fascist degenerates.
Second, ask for names of a credible organization that accuses Israel of war crimes.
You have set up a closed system wherein any link provided that accuses Israel of war crimes becomes ipso facto a degenerate group of neo-fascists.
shira
(30,109 posts)How about one organization that tows the BDS line but is not sympathetic or supportive of fascists like Hamas or Hezbollah?
Is that too much to ask?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
"You can't even prove the occupation is illegal..."
Say it again.
"You can't even prove the occupation is illegal..."
Say it again.
"You can't even prove the occupation is illegal..."
Keep on repeating that, shira, and that says it all folks!
When people start using that phrase, "You can't even prove the occupation is illegal" you can bet your bottom dollar that they believe that the occupation is legal.
shira
(30,109 posts)The EU, UN, USA, and Palestine agreed to Oslo 1 and 2.
