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[guillaumeb]

This message was self-deleted by its author (guillaumeb) on Tue Sep 8, 2015, 04:57 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[oberliner]

1. "It's absolutely disgusting what's going on," said Martinez. "Free Palestine!"

That's pretty much the level of discourse among the BDS community.

[shira]

3. Typical fascist sloganeering. We've seen this before. n/t

[guillaumeb]

5. What is the rhetorical term for labelling all opponents with the same label?

Broad brushing?

In this case, broad brushing a straw man.

[shira]

6. Here's the SWP's John Molyneux making it very clear....

Here is the Socialist Workers Party theoretician John Molyneux instructing the members in the finer points of reactionary anti-imperialism:

[font color = "red"]"To put the matter as starkly as possible: from the standpoint of Marxism and international socialism an illiterate conservative superstitious Muslim Palestinian peasant who supports Hamas is more progressive than an educated liberal atheist Israeli who supports Zionism (even critically)."

And here is Judith Butler - a professor at Berkeley and one of the most influential academics on the planet – drawing the political conclusions: “Hamas and Hezbollah... are social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left.”

[/font]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11243168/Blaming-Israel-for-Palestinian-violence-is-racist-it-denies-that-Arabs-are-moral-agents.html

Favoring Hamas over liberals is Fascist.

How am I wrong?

[guillaumeb]

8. I cannot speak for Molyneux or Butler.

But, assuming the accuracy of the quotes:

I will say that, in my personal opinion, to support Zionism as it is practiced and claimed by the Israeli government is to support imperialism.

The Israeli state has been growing steadily since 1967. The growth comes at the expense of the Palestinian land.

[shira]

11. Your post is from the SWP & I quoted its doyen, Molyneux.

I will say that, in my personal opinion, to support Zionism as it is practiced and claimed by the Israeli government is to support imperialism.

That's nonsense.

Since 1967, Israel has withdrawn from the Sinai & Gaza & has also offered peace initiatives that would have led to Israel withdrawing from the Golan as well as the W.Bank.

That's the opposite of Imperialism.

Now look at Iran & its growing influence in Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, & Yemen. THAT is Imperialism (it's happening with Russia too) & you'll notice that our little Marxist friends over at SWP cannot be bothered by any of that. Everything points to them supporting genuine Imperialism as if they're being paid to do so.

[guillaumeb]

4. Does absolutely disgusting refer to the actions of Israel?

Yes. We are all aware of the many crimes, illegalities, and violence perpetrated by the Israeli government against the Palestinians. Attempting to ignore is like trying to empty out the ocean with a pail.

Judging by US politicians, unquestioned support for Israel is the level of US political discourse. Whether the support is motivated by geopolitics or actual sympathy is difficult to determine.

[shira]

9. Which credible sources are saying Israel's occupation is illegal or Israel = Apartheid....

....or Israel commits genocide & war crimes?

Point to one credible anti-Israel source that isn't sympathetic to or supportive of Hamas & Hezbollah fascists.

Just one.

Is that really too much to ask for?

[guillaumeb]

12. It is too much for you to ask because you will categorically reject

any sources that accuse Israel of war crimes as being fascist.

We have had this discussion. It can lead nowhere. If I mention the ICC, or any source, you will condemn the source as biased or fascist.

That might work in some places, but the BDS movement is growing. Some dismiss it, but the same types dismissed the BDS movement when it was directed against the other apartheid state, South Africa. We know how that turned out.

The more that Israeli actions are exposed, and in 2015 it is difficult to hide state crimes, the more support for Israel falls. There is inly one solution. Give up the idea of a "greater Israel" that extends over most of Palestine, Israel, Jordan, and Syria, and actually try to live as neighbors.

Possible? Yes.
Easy? No.

[shira]

14. So you can't name one source that isn't neo-fascist. Point proven. n/t

[oberliner]

13. It seems a tad unnuanced

Also needlessly hyperbolic.

[shira]

2. Again, you fail to realize the problem BDS poses. It's a hate movement...

Doing nothing about it only allows the hate to continue & grow. Like the situation in Europe, for example, where anti-semitism has spiked to levels not seen in decades. That's due to the influence of the BDS movement.

Therefore doing nothing about BDS is not an option.

[guillaumeb]

7. Again, you fail to realize the problem illegal Israeli actions pose.

Actions, no matter the purported motivation, have consequences.

Every Israeli settlement,
every dispossession from ancestral land,
every wall erected on anothers land,
every humiliation at a border crossing,
every incinerated Palestinian child,
every civilian home bombed, (forget the fiction of prior warning)
every apartheid law that singles out Palestinians for special humiliation,
all of these actions sow the seeds for further conflict.

Perhaps the spiking of which you speak is merely the reaction of the world to the continuing, nearly 40 years now, dispossession of Palestinians from their homeland by the Israeli government.

That is not anti-Semitism, it is anti-imperialism.

[oberliner]

10. What about the years of Palestinian terror attacks against Israeli civilians?

Don't those actions have consequences too?

[guillaumeb]

16. Actions do have consequences O.

But when the actions of which you speak are motivated by prior Israeli actions, how far back shall we go in assigning blame?

First, the root of the problem was planted by European imperialists.
Second, the Israeli State was created itself through the actions of European imperialists.

But prior to the creation of the Israeli State, there were incidents like the bombing of the King David Hotel and the assassination of Count Bernadette Folk. Were these acts of terror the fault of the Palestinians, or were they caused by the Jewish terror gangs named Irgun and Stern?

Subsequent to the creation of the state, there has been the continuing land theft, forced migration, and dispossession that was intensified after the 1967 war.

ALL of these actions also have consequences. And those consequences are playing out today.

[shira]

15. Let's go with every illegal Israeli settlement...

1. They're not illegal. The UN couldn't even pass a resolution stating any such thing. The US voted no when the UNSCR tried to pass a resolution making it illegal in 2011. The reason they're not illegal is because the land is disputed. UNSCR 242 calls specifically for a land for peace deal in which both sides would recognize each other's safe & secure borders. Those borders remain unrecognized.

So you're wrong there.

2. The Oslo Accords were witnessed and signed by the EU, USA, UN, and of course Palestine. Oslo doesn't call for the cessation of settlement building. It doesn't make it illegal. In fact, Israel volunteered after Oslo to not build any new settlements & they haven't since 1995. They've built within existing settlement blocs, but again the world agreed to that and so did the Palestinians.

Your arguments have been refuted so many times, you should be embarrassed to keep resurrecting them over & over again.

[guillaumeb]

18. My arguments are based on International Law.

You can deny, or avoid, but you cannot refute.

Here is a reference:
https://www.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/380

From the reference:

The Fourth Geneva Convention. Israel disputes the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the OPT, although that convention was ratified both by it and by Jordan. According to the Israeli interpretation, it would follow from the wording of Article 2(2) that the Convention applies only where the territory occupied fell previously under the sovereignty of another High Contracting Party. 3 Since the OPT did not fall under Jordanian sovereignty before being occupied by Israel, the Israeli government argues that the Convention does not apply to it. This argument was rejected by the ICJ in the Wall Opinion. The Court found that, according to Article 2(1), the Convention is applicable whenever there exists an armed conflict between two contracting parties4. If that condition is satisfied, the Convention applies to any territory occupied in the course of that conflict. The object of Article 2(2) is not to restrict the scope of application of the Convention but simply to make clear that, even if the occupation met no armed resistance, the Convention is applicable 5. According to the Court, this interpretation reflects the intention of the drafters of the Convention to protect civilians who find themselves, in whatever way, in the hands of the occupying Power. It is also confirmed by the Convention’s travaux préparatoires and was approved by the States parties to the Convention at a conference on 15 June 1999, in which they reaffirmed the applicability of the Fourth Convention to the OPT, including East Jerusalem. 6 For its part, the UN Security Council stated on numerous occasions that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to Israel’s occupation of the OPT. 7 The Supreme Court of Israel also found that, to the extent they affect civilians, the military operations of the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) are governed by the Hague Regulations and the Fourth Geneva Convention. 8 Those on the Israeli side who maintain that the Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply to the OPT therefore commit a serious error. - See more at: http://www.eccpalestine.org/israels-obligations-as-an-occupying-power-under-international-law-its-violations-and-implications-for-eu-policy/#sthash.gsDFYr5T.dpuf

So when we speak of arguments being refuted, the facts are on my side in this case. international Law applies to the Palestinian situation, and Israel is in the wrong.

[grossproffit]

17. Already a thread on this.

[url]http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134111534[/url]

[guillaumeb]

19. I did not see the earlier thread. I will delete mine. Thanks.