Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumVideo of 18-year-old Palestinian chased by Jewish mob and killed by police shocks global audience
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/palestinian-jewish-audienceIn the hours since video went up of the killing of 18-year-old Fadi Alloun near Damascus Gate in occupied East Jerusalem Sunday morning, the footage has shocked people around the world. The young man appears to be hunted by a group of Jews, many religious, who call on police to kill Alloun. The police do. Later police said that Alloun had stabbed a Jewish boy. But whatever he did, the video appears to show an execution, and no attempt at arrest.
And Alloun’s killing follows by two weeks the “extrajudicial execution” by Israeli forces of 18-year-old Hadeel al-Hashlamoun in occupied Hebron.
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As the video above begins, voices can be heard in Hebrew shouting – apparently at police – “Shoot him! He’s a terrorist! Shoot him!” and “Don’t wait! Shoot him!”…
After police shoot him dead, an officer can be heard asking one of the mob, “Did he stab anyone?”
Another extrajudicial murder by Israelis pretending to be cowboys.
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R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)“The Israelis are shameless liars. Alloun never stabbed anybody. He was the one who was attacked while on his way to work in Jerusalem at a bakery,” a family member of Alloun, who declined to provide his name, told Al Jazeera.
A cousin of the slain Palestinian teenager, who also declined to provide his name, said Alloun was targeted by a mob of about 70 Israeli settlers, one of many who have been rampaging through Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank, attacking Palestinians and their property. “Even if the Israelis prove that he stabbed a settler, what was he to do when beaten and attacked by a huge mob screaming ‘Kill the Arabs’?”
xfundy
(5,105 posts)worthless.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)
Israeli
(4,139 posts)read Haaretz's report mentioned in the OP ....here it is in full :
'Let the People of Israel Enter the Gates and Kill Arabs'
Racist violence has erupted following terrorist attacks in the past, but this time it seems that the Jewish mob which took to the streets was accepted by Jerusalemites with understanding, if not downright approval.
Nir Hasson Oct 04, 2015
Just like after every other terror attack in recent years, young Jews vented their anger with racist violence for several hours, attacking Arab passersby in Jerusalem on Saturday night.
However, in contrast to previous incidents, this time it looked like a very big group and that Jewish residents of Jerusalem accepted their behavior with understanding, as part of the terror routine.
Shortly after the terror attack, in which a Palestinian stabbed to death two Jews, hundreds of people, mostly youths, gathered at Zion Square, answering a call to demonstrate and demand revenge. Bentzi Gopstein, head of Lehava, and right-wing extremists Itamar Ben Gvir and Baruch Marzel were prominent, but they only seemed to be leading the event. In practice, this crowd had no leader but was fueled by a feeling of hate and the desire to take revenge.
Among the demonstrators were Lehava activists, wearing black shirts, young ultra-Orthodox Jews, well-known local right-wing activists and many foreigners, speaking English and French, who joined the mob, and at least one Evangelist preacher, who called on the people of Israel to awaken. In contrast to the past, it looked like women took a significant part in inflaming passions.
"We have to kill them all, including the Arab Druze in the army," explained one woman to her girlfriend.
( follows video of riot )
It started as a kind of protest of rage, with the familiar calls of "death to terrorists," "revenge" and "the people demand security." However, it quickly switched to the no-less familiar calls of "death to Arabs," "an Arab is a bastard, a Jew is a good soul" and other songs from the fairly limited racist repertoire of the far right in Jerusalem. Some of the organizers sought to lead the mob through Damascus Gate and the Muslim Quarter in the Old City to the site of the terror attack. The police was not about to let that happen and blocked their way between Zion Square and Jaffa Road.
From there, gangs of youths ran amok looking for Arab victims. But Arab workers in central Jerusalem are used to such events, and the vast majority of them fled home before the rioting. Even on the light rail cars, that often serve the Arab population, there were no Arabs. The Jewish youths blocked the rail in the square and "interviewed" passengers to determine their identity.
"Are you an Arab? Are you an Arab?" they called out to a passenger who was probably wise enough to smile without answering.
"Leave him alone. He's a Jew," said one of the attackers, and they moved on to look for the next victim. The rest of the passengers responded apathetically and tried to look the other way. There were many drivers who honked in solidarity and vocally supported them. The cafes and restaurants along Jaffa Road were full of people watching the march of hatred passing back and forth.
They found one victim in Mamila Mall, a kitchen worker at the Roladin café who had stepped out for a cigarette. They sprayed teargas in his face. A Palestinian taxi driver was attacked, and when he tried to flee he hit and lightly injured a pedestrian. Dozens of Jewish youths stormed the central Ben Yehuda Street looking for Arab workers. On Jaffa Road, policemen were forced to accompany a vehicle of municipal sanitation workers. At Zion Square, they massed around a circle of people participating in the "Medabrim Bakikar" dialogue group and threatened to assault a Palestinian woman.
But these random victims did not sate their urge and after midnight there was a mass run toward Damascus Gate. They were stopped before the gate by police and pushed back with clubs toward the Musrara neighborhood.
"Let the people of Israel enter the gates and kill Arabs," one of the youths shouted at the police. "Where were you at seven in the evening? Go beat up Arabs," a female demonstrator cried, referring to the terror attack earlier that night. Meanwhile, they ran back and forth, following false rumors of Arab passersby and undercover agents hiding among them with calls of death to Arabs.
At 4 A.M., Fadi Alon, a 19-year-old resident of Isawiyya, arrived at the scene. According to the police, he was armed with a weapon and was planning to make an attack. He managed to stab one youth and injure him moderately before he fled and was shot to death by police, who were being egged on by the demonstrators.
Alon's family asserts that he was caught up in the place by accident, when he went out for a jog and was only seeking to defend himself. His death has set off fears of violence in Isawiyya. There have been over 20 wounded in clashes between police and youths from the village. His father and uncle have been arrested by police.
Source: http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/.premium-1.678800
King_David
(14,851 posts)Just google it and one site you have to pay to read it and the other ,props to you ,can be read here , in full and absolutely free...
Shkaich, Kol Hakavod....
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)However, as the victim was a Palestinian, there will probably be no charges.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)WATCH: Israeli police shoot dead Fadi Samir Alloun
Could he have been arrested without shooting? Could officers have shot him in the legs instead of the chest? Could police have used less-lethal means to subdue him, like a taser or pepper spray? The consensus on Palestinian social networks was that the Fadi Samir Alloun, himself a teenager, was executed in cold blood. And even a skeptic would ask himself, regardless of whether deadly force may or may not have ultimately been necessary, whether non-lethal means of stopping Alloun should have been tried before resorting to deadly force.
All too often we see cases where Israeli security forces use deadly force against Palestinians — on both sides of the Green Line — not as a last resort, but as a first resort. In fact, since Saturday nearly 50 Palestinian demonstrators have been shot with live ammunition. That is a huge problem, both because it seems to be killing only Arabs and not Jews, but also because police make mistakes. When that mistake involves a bullet to the heart, there is no fixing it.
http://972mag.com/using-deadly-force-against-palestinians-as-a-first-resort/112416/
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Did you miss the part where this person stabs a 15 year old boy?
Not surprisingly, Mondoweiss creates a version of reality that leads people to conclude as you did.
If a 15 year old boy was stabbed on the streets and tried to escape, it seems normal that people would be shouting in this manner.
But of course Mondoweiss tries to spin it as a mob of unruly Jews randomly deciding to call a Palestinian a terrorists for no particular reason other than their evil-ness.
This is a person who had just stabbed a child.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It seems unlikely that someone would deliberately would enter an area alone, at night, where a mob is on the rampage, in order to stab someone. It's actually more likely that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and defended himself.
Either way, all we can see is a person being hunted by a mob, who stops and he's at a fair distance from anyone else, when the police jumps out of a car and shoots him without hesitating. That's a murder in every civilized country.
And you seemt to think it's important that the victim is only 15 and therefore a child. Is a Palestinian 15 year old a child in the same sense as a Jewish one? Just wondering...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Here's a picture of the victim of the stabbing:
Interesting that you think it is important to minimize the fact that this Palestinian stabbed a Jewish child (whereas the Mondoweiss article is really keen on highlighting a "Jewish mob" hunting (to use your word) said stabber).
You are also just inventing a fictitious narrative that the person who stabbed this child was "defending himself" based on no facts or evidence.
If someone stabs a child and then escapes with a weapon, they will generally be chased down by police and citizens alike in any civilized country.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Do you have a source to go with that?
shira
(30,109 posts)....that he wanted to become a martyr.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-teen-stabbed-outside-jerusalems-old-city/
Mondoweiss and Electronic Intifada are trying to fan the flames with even more incitement.
And THAT is a fact.
These bigoted anti-Zionist websites & like-minded sources are the problem, deliberately manipulating or manufacturing news against Jews they hate & want dead. Like Mahmoud Abbas & his goons, they incite violence & never condemn terror attacks - nor show even one ounce of compassion - for Jews who are attacked (although they believe they have the right to tell Jews they cannot defend themselves). These monsters absolutely feast on violence within Israel. My observation over the years is that - besides wanting Jews harmed or killed - the Mondoweissers crave for more Palestinians dead as well, especially children...so they can get their perverted rocks off writing manipulative incitement that pours even more gasoline onto the fire.
Time to wake up.
Israeli
(4,139 posts).......why stop there ?
You have Haaretz and 972 in this thread .
Which you conveniently ignore .
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Israeli
(4,139 posts)Only those ....
quote :
" These bigoted anti-Zionist websites & like-minded sources are the problem, deliberately manipulating or manufacturing news against Jews they hate & want dead. Like Mahmoud Abbas & his goons, they incite violence & never condemn terror attacks - nor show even one ounce of compassion - for Jews who are attacked (although they believe they have the right to tell Jews they cannot defend themselves). These monsters absolutely feast on violence within Israel. My observation over the years is that - besides wanting Jews harmed or killed - the Mondoweissers crave for more Palestinians dead as well, especially children...so they can get their perverted rocks off writing manipulative incitement that pours even more gasoline onto the fire."
......show the full video .
BTW ....does her potty mouth bother you ? ....seems to be a 'thing' with shira's followers .
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)While I tend to disagree with her, she makes big waves, and many in this forum, including me, love to surf those waves. She's also a source of knowledge of things that I wouldn't know otherwise, so I would actually prefer she was around...
shira
(30,109 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)If it were an echo chamber none of us would be here.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)trail or evidence.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....on his Facebook that he wanted to die a martyr.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You see, my misguided friend, civilized nations do not use extrajuducual murder as a means to an end if they want to be taken seriously...and neither do their supporters.
Remarkably, your allergic reaction to the rule of law...or the very least your endorsement of mob *rule is not something that I would expect from another American.
*I do understand, IMHO, that not all Americans are the same or share all the same principals, values or lust for the rule of law. There are even a few predatory Americans that would rather shoot, hang or murder first instead of ferreting out the truth in a situation.
Which grpup do you fall into, seeing how you are going on circumstantial evidence?
shira
(30,109 posts)"your allergic reaction to the rule of law"
Followed by a straw-man...
and then a False-Dilemna...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)It is a well worn tactic of some when cornered to play the counterfeit victim while they shout that the real victim had it coming.
Nice job, shira. So tell me again why the Palestinian deserved to be gunned down from a distance just because the mob screamed that he should be shot.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Anybody that suggests that the Palestinian had it coming simply by being accused is frankly unAmerican.
Innocent until proven guilty outweighs shoot them then ask questions later.
Anybody that suggests that the Palestinian had it coming is an insult to the rule of law, common sense and this forum.
shira
(30,109 posts)The fact is a boy was stabbed by a guy who had just written on his Facebook "Martyrdom or Victory".
People are pretending here that the assailant was a harmless innocent person.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)....on his Facebook that he wanted to die a martyr.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=114897
...and are then shot should be portrayed as victims.
Again, innocent until proven guilty. You do understand how that works, right?
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)See #49 in this thread.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You're all about getting video evidence now, IMHO, until the evidence is something that you don't want to see.
Your problem, not mine.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)A terrorist stabbed a 15-year-old overnight Saturday in Jerusalem, moderately wounding the teenager. The attacker fled and was killed by police fire after security forces noticed the knife in his hand.
The victim of the attack was taken to the trauma center of Shaare Zedek Medical Center. He was in stable condition with wounds to the chest and back.
The attacker was identified as Fadi Alloun, a resident of East Jerusalem's Issawiya neighborhood.
He had written on his Facebook page: "Either martyrdom or victory."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4706801,00.html
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)who was standing away from other people with no warning. That's murder in every civilized country.
The article implies that it wasn't an execution and that it was lawful. There's no way this would be lawful in the US or any other democratic country.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)How anyone can defend this is beyond me .
Murder by mob .
Shame on us .
New video shows accused stabber posed no threat when shot
The Israeli media claimed that Fadi Alloun, who stabbed a 15-year-old in Jerusalem, was shot and killed while being chased as he was holding a knife. A new video reveals that he could have been subdued, and did not pose a threat.
By *John Brown
Last Saturday an Israeli policeman shot and killed Fadi Alloun, a 19-year-old resident of the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Issawiya, after he was suspected of stabbing a 15-year-old Israeli near Jerusalem’s Damascus Gate.
A video that went viral following the incident shows young Jewish Israelis egging on the policemen to kill Alloun, despite the fact that it is unclear from the video whether he posed a threat when an officer shot him numerous times. The Israeli media reported that he was shot while “trying to escape from the security forces that began chasing him. After refusing to release his grip on the knife, the forces shot and killed him.”
It was clear that that first part was a lie from the get go: Alloun never tried to escape. However, a new video that captures the scene from a different angle shows that Alloun wasn’t holding a knife when he was shot, and therefore did not pose a threat. Moreover, this was the reason an officer who stood near the person filming the incident chose not to shoot Alloun. He chose neither to shoot nor use his weapon as threat as Alloun walked by him. He didn’t shoot when the teenagers nearby yelled “Shoot him, bitch!” or “Pepper spray? What kind of policemen are you?” while warning Alloun that he was “about to die.” When it was all over, the police officer who refused to shoot Alloun became the target of verbal abuse by those same teenagers.
And while this particular policeman acted appropriately, additional officers who arrived on the scene chose to act differentkly. Seconds after they exit their vehicles, one of the teenagers — who would later celebrate Alloun’s killing by shouting “death to Arabs” — tells the officers that Alloun had just stabbed someone and that they should shoot without any attempt to subdue him. The officers did not even yell at Alloun to throw down the knife — that’s because there was no knife and Alloun posed no threat. They did not even yell at him to give up or to let him know that he was under arrest.
The video shows that detaining Alloun was indeed possible. In fact, there is no other option but to determine that Israeli policemen shot and killed a man in cold blood, despite the fact that he did not pose a threat, and must be put on trial for doing so. Even a person who stabbed someone has the right not to be extrajudicially killed by the police, regardless of the pressure put on them by a racist mob.
Obviously this will not happen, since the killing was in line with the instructions that permit the shooting of Arabs suspected of terrorist attacks. “This is how these events must end,” say the police chiefs and government officials. This is exactly what the officer did. But they conveniently forget to mention that this order only applies to Arabs.
This is the reason the terrorist who stabbed four Palestinians in Dimona was not shot on the spot. In fact, if you look at the Israeli media, no one has even bothered to label him a terrorist. Eli Schlissel, who murdered 16-year-old Shira Banki at the Jerusalem pride march, was not shot, despite the fact that he clearly posed a threat to the marchers. This is the same reason that the IDF does not shoot settlers but does shoot Palestinian children who pose less of a risk.
This policy is based on the bloodletting of Arab citizens, a policy that is slowly becoming normalized among the Israeli public, and which leads to dozens of terrorist attacks against Arabs, including: settlers who throw rocks at Palestinians under the protection of the IDF; a racist mob in Israel’s northern town of Afula that attacks a television journalist because he is Arab; or a racist mob that attacks Arabs in Netanya (where the police handcuffed the victim, rather than the attackers); and a racist mob in Jerusalem that walks the streets in search of Arabs.
*John Brown is the pseudonym of an Israeli academic and blogger. This article was first published in Hebrew on Local Call, where he is a blogger. Read it here.
http://972mag.com/new-video-shows-accused-stabber-posed-no-threat-when-shot/112593/
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Should the police who murdered Alloun have to take the full blame for what he did, or should we at least partially blame the general hysteria that encourages people to do the most evil acts without hesitating? I don't think he would have killed Alloun unless his superiors had told him it was OK, and they might even give him a medal for murder.
This is probably not the incitement Netanyahu is talking about, but it's the incitement he should talk about, because it transforms the civilized man into a savage, just like the other side's incitement does the same. I firmly believe that Israel could be better than that.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's clear they wanted him to stop & surrender. Right before the shots were fired, he was raising one hand (probably the one with the knife) while charging an officer.
It's difficult to tell with that crappy video at 4am in the morning.
But there's no evidence of murder, lynching, or execution there.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I'm basing my observations on the clips from the posts:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134114529#post5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134114529#post23
and the description in those posts of what happens in those clips seem to be accurate. You seem to be making things up.
shira
(30,109 posts)He's surrounded by officers wanting him to stop.
You can't see that?
At the last second when he's shot, he's seen charging officers to his left.
In the 2nd video it's more clear officers had him surrounded, but rather than stop and put the knife down he was running until he started getting too close to cops who then shot him.
Here's what the stabbing victim said:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/201397#.VhuVCRNVikp
Both attacker and victim dropped to the pavement, buying some time - but the terrorist still got away.
"A friend of mine saw him and sprayed him with tear gas, but the terrorist escaped," Malka said.
Malka's friend then called for help.
"I didn't feel blood until I touched my shirt," he reflected.
What you hear in the video about "shoot him" are his Yeshiva friends tellling cops to shoot a guy running around with a knife in hand.
There are 2 possible scenarios here:
1. A pack of crazed religious Jews baying for blood find & then chase a random Palestinian minding his own business (Facebook post about being a martyr is total coincidence) before they then call the police to get him (for no reason). The police then surround him and murder him in cold blood.....because they can.
or...
2. A Palestinian who had just written on Facebook that he wants to be a martyr finds Jews & attacks one, tries to escape but was followed by the boy's friends who had just called police over to get him. Police surround him but don't shoot right away. The Palestinian charges cops with knife in hand before being shot.
shira
(30,109 posts)...and are then shot should be portrayed as victims.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Of course, that's not close to what I've observed from Israel's harshest critics here at DU.
I haven't seen one ounce of sympathy for Jews murdered by terrorists. Only justification...
In fact, I've seen more sympathy towards terrorists shot in the act than for Jews hurt or wounded by these same terrorists.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I guess that you haven't been reading then.
A funny thing about that, shira...
As I understand it, you are an American, and as an American you should believe, hopefully, in due process and that everybody has fundamental inalienable rights.
I guess that, IMHO, that you do not believe in these rights from your past posts labeling all these Palestinians shot dead as terrorists.
But let me get to the point.
Palestinians get shot dead when they are accused of being terrorists.
When Israeli Jews are the aggressors they get a walk through.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Last edited Wed Oct 7, 2015, 10:40 AM - Edit history (1)
Shoot first then ask if he did something?
OK, cowboy.
bumprstickr
(74 posts)Palestinians are always guilty of something, right?
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)and they won't like it when it happens.
King_David
(14,851 posts)As THE great Abba Eban said :
"If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions."
Abba Eban
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 11, 2015, 08:50 PM - Edit history (1)
instead if entering into a cogent conversation about Israel you get "so what...who cares" as a response.
Weak sauce at best and the bird to boot.
The problem is that Israel really doesn't care...and seemingly it's supporters would rather dig in and throw excuses at you.
But I do agree with the sentiment that apartheid Israel is driving straight towards a cliff while screaming ar the world, but Israel isn't Thelma or Louise.
shira
(30,109 posts)The world was wrong 75 years ago when it stood by and allowed the genocide of 6 million.
What makes you think the world is any better today?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Israel is the victimizer this time around.
The world stood by Nearly 70 years ago for the Nakba and gave fledgeling Israel the benefit of the doubt.
Now BDS is picking up steam and is telling Israel to stop being the victimizers.
Yes, the world is slightly better, but not by much.
shira
(30,109 posts)Thousands of years of Jew hate culminating in a genocide of 6 million doesn't just go away in 75 years.
As we see in Europe, it was hidden for a while but it's coming back in full force.
Should be easy for any liberal to acknowledge.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Neither does the sin of the founders of Israel and their ethnic cleansing of 720,000 Palestinians.
The Palestinians are the victims of the victims.
As for the word "repulsive", you have given it new meaning.
shira
(30,109 posts)Worse, you're trying to twist the Shoah around in order to make its victims the bad guys.
On a liberal board, no less.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)while Israeli plays the victim.
On a liberal board, no less.
The Palestinians are the victims now.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)The Palestinians are the victims.
The Israelis are the oppressors.
The Palestinians are good.
The Israelis are bad.
Nice and simple and clean. No need for nuance.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Israeli
(4,139 posts)
