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Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:41 AM

 

The real problem with Netanyahu's mufti speech

http://972mag.com/the-real-problem-with-netanyahus-mufti-speech/113138/

By calling the Palestinians Nazis, the Israeli prime minister was saying they can never be negotiated with — that Israel must fight them to the bloody end.

Despite the festival of mockery taking place on social media, Benjamin Netanyahu clearly does not believe that Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini is more responsible than Hitler for the Holocaust. (Although that is exactly what the prime minister said in his speech at the World Zionist Conference on Tuesday.) Netanyahu is a smart guy who knows World War II history better than most of his critics. The idea that the mufti is responsible for the extermination of European Jewry is completely absurd, and Netanyahu knows that. Just like he explained the next day, he wasn’t even talking about the Nazis, and he certainly never meant to absolve them for the Holocaust. The prime minister was trying to make a statement about the Palestinians and that’s the real problem.

Saying that the Palestinians are Nazis — very much like the comparison between Israel and the Nazis — has no place in a fact-based or historically accurate discourse. That should go without saying. The only reason to do so would be to illustrate that it is impossible to negotiate, or even speak with, the other side — that they must be fought to the bloody end. That is the historical historical context and significance of comparing somebody to the Nazis. They are one of the few regimes in all of history whose illegitimacy is absolute — to everyone in the world. Even those who had the most remote ties with the Nazis, even those who tried to make deals with them to save Jews, were later classified as traitors. Because one wages only war against Nazis. Look at every WWII film ever made — there is no such thing as a good Nazi.

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Arrow 34 replies Author Time Post
Reply The real problem with Netanyahu's mufti speech (Original post)
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 OP
oberliner Oct 2015 #1
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #2
oberliner Oct 2015 #4
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #7
oberliner Oct 2015 #8
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #10
shira Oct 2015 #20
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #24
shira Oct 2015 #26
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #28
shira Oct 2015 #21
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #25
shira Oct 2015 #27
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #29
shira Oct 2015 #30
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #31
shira Oct 2015 #32
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #33
azurnoir Oct 2015 #12
shira Oct 2015 #18
azurnoir Oct 2015 #34
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #19
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #23
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #22
TubbersUK Oct 2015 #3
shira Oct 2015 #6
shira Oct 2015 #5
oberliner Oct 2015 #9
shira Oct 2015 #11
azurnoir Oct 2015 #13
oberliner Oct 2015 #14
azurnoir Oct 2015 #15
shira Oct 2015 #16
azurnoir Oct 2015 #17

Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Original post)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:55 AM

1. I encourage everyone to heed the wisdom of this article

 

"Saying that the Palestinians are Nazis — very much like the comparison between Israel and the Nazis — has no place in a fact-based or historically accurate discourse. That should go without saying."

Very well said.

Yet, sadly, we see both such comparisons being made way too frequently, even here at DU.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:23 PM

2. Yet, sadly, we see both such comparisons being made way too frequently, even here at DU.

 

Please post these "Israel are Nazis" posts since it afainst the TOS I believe.

Thanks in advance.

But speaking specifically to the OP...

This sentiment was made by the leader of Israel, and I do not believe that it was a gaffe. I believe that it was an intentional bigoted attack on all Palestinians to make them synonymous with Nazis: clearly a very evil thing in and of itself.

Those that stand in defense of Netanyahu deserve to be outed for the closeted bigots they are.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:32 PM

4. OK

 

How about this example:

"Israel is a demonstrably volatile anomaly that only exists in its current state because of massive republican support, particularly among military lines, as well as Reaganesque-conservative manipulation through the Mossad that, strikingly, resembles the very regime that precipitated the formation of the Israeli state in the first place: Nazi Germany.

...

Therefore, we must surgically be careful, but we MUST destroy any capabilities of Israeli nazis from terrorizing the mideastern region and rectify its political, emotional, and spirtual growth by eliminating the American GOP influence from its life source. Once that occurs, we can effect progressive, humane change."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=7773

Associating a country or a people with Nazi Germany is an intentionally bigoted attack (We can agree on that).

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Response to oberliner (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 06:53 PM

7. Great You found a troll from 2013: banned by skinner.

 

Account status: Posting privileges revoked
Member since: Sat Jul 26, 2008, 08:54 PM
Number of posts: 1,068
Number of posts, last 90 days: 0
Favorite forum: NA
Favorite group: NA
Last post: Fri Jul 12, 2013, 02:53 AM


A troll from 2013 doesn't really stack up against the leader of Israel.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #7)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 07:15 PM

8. Here's a more recent example from folks still posting here

 

shaayecanaan (6,068 posts)
97. its quite similar, actually

israel/hitler annexed chunks of the west bank/sudetenland, prevented palestinians/czechs from entering and encouraged instead ethnic Germans/Jews to move to those annexed areas

oberliner (32,593 posts)
99. Some people really like introducing Hitler/Nazis into this discussion

It seems to be a favorite comparison for some folks for some reason.

R. Daneel Olivaw (10,324 posts)
100. Well, when the boot fits...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=93153

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Response to oberliner (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 07:39 PM

10. Oh, shame ober, why not pist my followup instead of cherry picking...

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=93155

R. Daneel Olivaw
102. Oh, Israel is similar to many repressive regimes.
They all have their similarities with having a perceived sub-group they can abuse and scapegoat, IMHO.

The 19th century Americans had the First Nations, African Slaves, Chinese, Irish, Italians...etc.

The British had the Scotts and Irish.

The French had the Vietnamese.

The Russians had their serfs.

The Germans had everybody.

The Khmer Rouge had the educated.

The Israelis have the Palestinians.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #10)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 07:26 AM

20. Posted here, from Mondoweiss: "Gaza is a concentration camp..."

 

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Response to shira (Reply #20)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 08:28 AM

24. Why not post the pertinent parts of the article instead of hyperventilating over falsehoods?

 


Note, incidentally, I say “concentration camp” and not “death camp.” I am not comparing Gaza to Auschwitz-Birkenau, but one cannot help but liken the conditions today in Gaza to the sorts of conditions once faced by Japanese-Americans during World War II, or the Boers in South Africa during the Anglo-Boer War, or the black South Africans years later in such besieged townships as Soweto, or for that matter Jews and gays and gypsies at Dachau and Theresienstadt in the years before the Nazis themselves settled on their Final Solution.


As is usual, some just have to make false claims, shira, by omission.




Someday, you'll learn.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #24)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 08:33 AM

26. What a joke of a response. That article was straight up trash....

 

...that leads anyone reading it to see Israel / Nazi parallels.

It should have never been posted on a liberal board.

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Response to shira (Reply #26)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 08:57 AM

28. What a clever, clever comeback full of vigor and verse!

 


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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #10)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 07:29 AM

21. Another one: "More voices describe Gaza slaughter as a ‘genocide’..."

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113474459

Use whatever terms you like: genocide, ethnic cleansing, pogroms, final solution or what ever else you can think up. The point is that Israel is responsible for the civilians it kills wholesale.

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Response to shira (Reply #21)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 08:31 AM

25. And again, you run from the pertinent parts of the article that I addressed.

 



Historian Ilan Pappe has called it incremental genocide:
“Israel’s present assault on Gaza, alas, indicates that this policy continues unabated. The term is important since it appropriately locates Israel’s barbaric action—then and now—within a wider historical context.”

A top Brazilian diplomat agrees:
“For the love of God, what we have here is genocide, a massacre, to the point where top UN officials are starting to talk about war crimes” against Palestinians, Brazil’s Special Adviser for International Relations Marco Aurelio García told reporters.
---
Naomi Wolf states:
I mourn genocide in Gaza because I am the granddaughter of a family half wiped out in a holocaust and I know genocide when I see it


And again, you omit the very pertinent facts of the article...cherry pick...to create your false narrative-tin god.

Bad form that.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #25)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 08:34 AM

27. But you likened the Gaza situation to a final solution. n/t

 

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Response to shira (Reply #27)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 09:15 AM

29. Once again, since you don't want to play fair, but play the victim. I was paraphrasing Naomi Wolf.

 



Naomi Wolf states:
I mourn genocide in Gaza because I am the granddaughter of a family half wiped out in a holocaust and I know genocide when I see it.




Now if you can find me writing that Israel are mondern-day Nazis, then you are on to something.


But just to be clear, I am not the one whining that colonizing Israeli Jews, under the watch of the IDF gunner, should wrongfully take land in Palestine since their 10th great granddaddy many have lived there once.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #29)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 09:44 AM

30. Naomi Wolf didn't claim "Final Solution". But you did. n/t

 

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Response to shira (Reply #30)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 09:52 AM

31. She did write holocaust: which was the final solution, dear. As I said I was paraphrasing.

 


But you above all should know this.

Perhaps after you stop complaining and looking for anti-Semites under the stairs?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #31)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 09:54 AM

32. Now you're denying what you wrote & implied. Classic. n/t

 

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Response to shira (Reply #32)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 10:01 AM

33. What I wrote is for everybody to read. But please stop with the dubious claims.

 

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Response to oberliner (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 08:35 PM

12. actually if you follow the thread it was not the poster you call out here that threw that example in

to the mix, it was in a link from one of your own compatriots that brought the subject up, the subject of the subthread concerned forced transfer of civilian populations

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113492722

btw it is IMO rather unseemly to call out someone who has not posted in nearly 4 months

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #12)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 07:15 AM

18. I didn't have to bring up the Nazis or Germany. He did that all by himself...

 

But nice try.

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Response to shira (Reply #18)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 10:27 AM

34. I think perhaps you need to read your own links more closely

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #12)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 07:25 AM

19. Hasbara central must really be jonesing to paint me as a anti-Semite.

 


But since their defense of Netanyahu has fallen on its face they need their scapegoats.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #12)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 07:48 AM

23. But the best part is that the ober apparently agreed...

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113492722#post103


oberliner (32,605 posts)
103. OK

That helps to get a fuller sense of where you are coming from.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #8)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 07:44 AM

22. There was also this...

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113492722#post93

R. Daneel Olivaw (10,326 posts)
93. Sometimes the despot fits, poor shira.

But let's be honest.

Great tyrants have always moved their population(s) and way of life in to fill the needs of empire.

The Romans moved their citizens in to choice areas and other people out. See 70 AD for reference.

The English did it.

The Russians did it.

The Nazis did it.


Israel is just fulfilling its own empire in the same way as other regimes have done in the past.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Original post)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:46 PM

3. This from the comments section:

What I heard in Bibi's perverse view of the Mufti and the Holocaust was this argument: you see, the Palestinians wanted to kill us even then when we were not settling their land. So even if we abandoned the settlements now they would still want to kill us. So settlement and eventual annexation are justified.


That's what I heard too.

Never mind that the Mufti spoke for himself, not the Palestinian people, and never mind that the Palestinians who lived then are not the Palestinians who are alive now. Nor are the Israelis the same as they were. What is clear is that the elder Netanyahu was an incorrigible racist, and I suspect his son is too.


Hard to argue with that.



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Response to TubbersUK (Reply #3)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 05:40 PM

6. Okay, so how can people describe what Hamas and the PA are doing....

 

...when they incite their people to attack & murder innocents?

Who are "they"....those who are inciting and those doing the murdering?

What do we call "them" in all honesty?

=============

All I see in Netanyahu's speech is a call-out to the Palestinian leadership & extremists they are inciting.

Besides, the reverse happens every day (with Israel haters) when all Zionist leadership and all Zionists for that matter are portrayed as evil rightwing racists who want Palestinians gone or dead. There's plenty of that going on here at DU, and not just in the I/P forum.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Original post)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 05:29 PM

5. Where did Netanyahu call Palestinians Nazis? The Mufti sure, but Palestinians in general? n/t

 

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Response to shira (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 07:20 PM

9. The Mufti was definitely pro-Nazi

 

There is certainly no historian who would dispute that.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 08:22 PM

11. Bibi has the whole world talking about the Mufti's Nazi ties...

 

That's one helluva an accomplishment.

Of course he's being condemned more for his historical revision than Abbas for his incitement to murder.

Strange times.

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Response to shira (Reply #11)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 08:37 PM

13. and that IMO was Bibi'shis true purpose in making the comment - incitement against Palestinians

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #13)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 09:23 PM

14. His entire existence as PM of Israel is incitement against Palestinians

 

Pretty sure the feeling is mutual.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #14)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:49 PM

15. yes but this one was unique as Bibi was willing to look the fool for a moment hoping to reignite

the detailing of connecting all Palestinians to the Holocaust

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #15)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 12:10 AM

16. Seems Bibi's connecting Palestinian LEADERSHIP to the Mufti...

 

As he should, since the Palestinian LEADERSHIP idolizes Hitler's favorite Mufti.

If you think that's an attack on all Palestinians, then all the hostile criticism of Israeli leadership is also an attempt to demonize an entire people. Using the same illogic, of course.

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Response to shira (Reply #16)

Sat Oct 24, 2015, 02:35 AM

17. why yes in fact they have his picture surronded by lighted candles which they pray to 3 times a day

MEMRI says so or is it CAMERA maybe PMW it escapes me

and

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