Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumCiting boycott, Jewish academic refuses to help Israeli child
A Cambridge expert in the history of horses has rebuffed a request for information from an Israeli girl, citing as the reason for her refusal Israels treatment of the Palestinians.
Shachar Rabinovitch, 13, wrote recently to the British-American researcher Marsha Levine, who is Jewish, that she was doing a school project about horses and requested details about the domestication and breeding of early horse species.
According to a Facebook post by her mother, Shamir, on Monday, Levine replied: Ill answer your questions when there is peace and justice for Palestinians in Palestine.
The Cambridge academic noted that she was a member of Jews for Justice for Palestinians. I support Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-professor-refuses-help-to-israeli-teen-citing-boycott/
Here is the question and response:
Hello!
My name is Shachar Rabinovitch and I'm from Israel.
I'm doing an assessment for school about horses, and it will be great if you can answer a few questions that I will ask.
1. What ancient horses breeds preserved and were a base to the breeds we know today?
2. How did the ancient humens created new breeds or kept the ones who already were existent?
3. What ancient horse breed the ancient humens used the most and what were those uses?
4. Where did the ancient horses breeds lived?
Thank you for reading my questions, Shachar Rabinovitch
Dear Shachar Rabinovich:
I'll answer your questions when there is peace and justice for Palestinians in Palestine.
I am a member of Jews for Justice for Palestinians (http://jfjfp.com). I support Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions. You might be a child, but if you are old enough to write to me, you are old enough to learn about Israeli history and how it has impacted on the lives of Palestinian people. Maybe your family has the same views as I do, but I doubt it. So, I suggest that you look at this link: http://jfjfp.com/?page_id=338
yours sincerely
Dr Marsha Levine
King_David
(14,851 posts)And as an adult ,to bully a child makes her a disgusting human being.
She forgot to say in her response how she is an important scholar and her time is too valuable to spend answering all these questions from a child.
As a Jew, she knew she would appear morally superior by invoking her self hatred instead.
Lazy, moral narcissist piece of crap taking up a coveted academic position.
King_David
(14,851 posts)When she displays no Jewish values whatsoever.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Absolutely nothing Jewish about that attitude. Meanwhile, historians are a dime a dozen, the child will simply find another and the "expert" is free to wallow in her hatred.
madaboutharry
(40,207 posts)Her letter to the girl is inappropriate.
shira
(30,109 posts)...that can be said of any Israel hater IMO.
still_one
(92,131 posts)against a student. You don't punish a student because you disagree with the politics of a country she came from
It is really outrageous
shira
(30,109 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Oh, wait...
2. She is in no way obligated to help the girl and can boycott whoever she feels like. The letter is unempathic and direct and indirectly blames the girl for political problems she has no say in, but Dr Marsha Levine is free to help or not help whomever she feels like, for whatever reasons as long as they are legal.
3. In other news, Israel somehow forgot to demolish the homes of the three Israelis who killed a palestinian teenager.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/30/mohammed-abu-khdeir-israeli-youths-guilty-of-murder-after-palestinian-teenager-was-burned-to-death
6chars
(3,967 posts)grossproffit
(5,591 posts)[img][/img]
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)I am from Germany. I am very familiar with the history of the Third Reich. (Btw, that Trump-fascism-thing currently going on in the US has several similarities with the anti-democracy- and anti-establishment-hysteria that lead to the downfall of the Weimar Republic.)
That's why it's my opinion that nobody has the right to treat other people like crap because of ethnic/religious reasons.
That's why it's my opinion that a state that relegates a specific ethnicity under its aegis to a status of second-rate citizens is not a just state.
That's why it's my opinion that military occupation is no acceptable solution to political conflict.
That's why it's my opinion that ethnicity-based settlement-projects are a bad idea.
You want to guilt me into abandoning those morals?
Are you implying that I'm not allowed to be critical of the policies of the state of Israel as a German because the Nazis killed the Jews?
6chars
(3,967 posts)I don't know if you learned that it was just an aberration where the Nazis just happened to find people they didn't like and one of those groups happened to be Jews. It was not just an aberration. There is a huge and horrible and unique tradition of anti-Semitism and it continues to this day with libels, conspiracy theories, genocidal desires from people found in all quarters. There is still all sorts of rhetoric about killing Jews, and all sorts of people obsessively focused on showing that the Jews are responsible for the problems of the world.
I am sure you are a fine person who feels extra responsibility because of the history of your country. But you seem to interpret that history as all about what the Germans did wrong and not about what was done to the Jews as Jews. I think this may be true of how Germany dealt with the aftermath of the Nazis - there was a lot of introspection about how to be a better nation, but in this mindset the Jews are just serve as a symbol of all oppressed people. As you form your criticism of Israel, it is entirely relevant that Israel is a Jewish state - and faces existential challenges because of ongoing anti-Semitism around the world. You are making German-centric assumptions about the Israeli mindset that are by and large wrong. You don't have to agree with Israel's actions, but you should better understand them. They are not motivated by racial animus, as were your forefathers. They are not motivated by world domination, as were your forefathers. Most Israelis are motivated by a strong desire for security and safety, some are motivated by an additional desire to have the kind of access to their own history that other peoples have. By interpreting everything as motivated by racial hate and greed, you reinforce your own fatally flawed view that Israel is like the Nazis.
You certainly should not abandon your morals, but you should be open to expanding them and examining your assumptions. If all you can do is demonize Israel and view Israel's enemies as passive, harmless victims with no responsibility, your positions end up contributing to anti-Semitism and not helping the Palestinians. This is not Germany 1940. In 1940, the Nazis were the problem that was making the world worse. This is not 1940. Israel is not the problem. Instead of orienting yourself toward Israel's demise as if that will solve the world's problems, you should orient yourself toward making the world better by looking for practical solutions to problems.
shira
(30,109 posts)Response to DetlefK (Reply #6)
FBaggins This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)academic to be so lost as to the responsibility that comes with applying an academic
boycott, her lack of focus..which is suppose to be, how will my actions help the
Palestinians. What actions do I take, participate in that will lend an empathetic
view of Palestinians and their cause.
Academic boycotts are precarious, at best. Her approach is to respond to
a young kid's inquiry on her specialty and I can only imagine what the
girl felt like when she received that awful response.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you have reason to believe the story is not accurate? It's been fairly widely covered now.
She answered questions about it when asked:
Dr Levine, who completed her PhD at the University of Cambridge's Department of Archaeology before taking up research posts at Columbia University and Syracuse University in New York, told the Telegraph that if a school student from a different country had got in touch with her to ask about horses, she would have responded differently.
Kids have questions, I usually answer their questions, she said. But I have agreed to BDS, and I do want to see justice for Palestine.
In Israel the majority of Israelis support the policies of the government which abuses the rights of Palestinians, so the fact is I dont want to help Israelis, and if you dont start with children where do you start?
And she is not that young anyway, her English is pretty good. If people dont stand up for justice, the world is going to come to an end.
Shamir Rabinovitch, who posted his daughter Shachars email exchange with the academic on Facebook, said he was "shocked" by Dr Levine's reply.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12027011/Retired-Cambridge-academic-refuses-to-help-Israeli-girl-with-school-project-until-there-is-peace-in-Palestine.html
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Levine doubles down, that is terrible in my view. She does not get it, not at all.
I can't believe she thought this was the response of an adult: But I have agreed to BDS, and I do want to see justice for Palestine.
So, I am going to apply my sense of an academic boycott to this Israeli kid through an email!
I don't know when I've seen anything so stupid and hurtful from an academic.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I completely agree with everything you've written here.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)as counterproductive, she insults the girls parents. She presumed when she said..I doubt it...meaning
your parents probably do not share my political views on the conflict.
That was the icing on the cake for me, horrible judgement..how the hell would
she know what their position was? For all she knew she could have an ally
for her positions. Again, incredibly stupid, unprofessional and insensitive.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Taking his repulsive politics out on a 13 year old child. Find another historian, Shachar - they're a dime a dozen.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Marsha Levine sounds like a woman's name to me.
In any case, I think she should've just answered the questions.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I sure hope bullying a 13 year old child was worth it to him.
Response to leftynyc (Reply #14)
Name removed Message auto-removed
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)is interesting don't you think? Thanks for the link
http://jfjfp.com/
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There has been a lot of killing on both sides recently.
That being said, I think this person ought to have answered this girl's questions about horses.
Mosby
(16,299 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Ex-Cambridge academic justifies boycotting Israeli schoolgirl by claiming Jews have become Nazis'
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/150503/ex-cambridge-academic-justifies-boycotting-israeli-schoolgirl-claiming-jews-have
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Bullying a child and now calling Israelis nazis. Her reputation is going to get shredded - rightfully so.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 1, 2015, 01:51 PM - Edit history (2)
...or at least freely admit to.
But frankly, I wouldn't us the nazi analogy since it has been thrown around so much, as the anti-semite epithet has, so I Would suggest something more to the direction that Israel is engaging in: apartheid.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You think she was right to respond the way she did to that Israeli kid?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You're so hurt over a mere blip in life yet have I ever seen you write anything condemning the Israeli policy of shoot to kill on stone throwers or demolition of houses of those accused of terrorism?
Spare me the bullshit and pearl clutching.
The woman was within her right to give the kid a wake up call.
Sweet dreams.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I guess I ought not to be surprised by your response.
Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #66)
Name removed Message auto-removed
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 1, 2015, 11:30 PM - Edit history (1)
....Ukraine, Armenia, Kazakhstan, & Kyrgyzstan, but never once wrote about human rights abuses there.
She also betrayed BDS as BDS claims to boycott institutions, not individuals.
That's a lie, as this shows - and as the Matisyahu example shows (he isn't even Israeli).
Her organization JJIP also supports terrorists like Rasmea Odeh.
And casting Jews - of all people - as Nazis is pure filth. Evil.
It's telling that the greater BDS movement hasn't condemned the professor for dehumanizing an Israeli girl as unworthy of engagement.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)If that's the worst the girl suffers, a wake-up call, compared to the Bedouin and Palestinians being in a constant state of attack by the right-wing zionist regime then she should consider herself lucky.
Right?
2naSalit
(86,534 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Fascinating that this is your response.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Apparently, you are in short supply.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)is a set-up. The answers to all the question are easily found online. I suspect the parents knew the professor's position on the boycott and wanted to see what her response would be to their child's request.
The whole thing doesn't past the smell test.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This is seriously what you believe?
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)is so lazy or so intellectually challenged that she was unable to find answers by herself how did she track down the name of this particular professor and her contact information? How many children do you know who have tracked down professors in foreign lands to ask questions that are easily answered? I can understand children sending a fan letter to a favorite writer, but this? Nope.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)From the follow up article:
Dr Levine, who completed her PhD at the University of Cambridge's Department of Archaeology before taking up research posts at Columbia University and Syracuse University in New York, told The Telegraph that if a school student from a different country had got in touch with her to ask about horses, she would have responded differently.
Kids have questions, I usually answer their questions, she said. But I have agreed to BDS [the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement against Israel], and I do want to see justice for Palestine.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12027011/Retired-Cambridge-academic-refuses-to-help-Israeli-girl-with-school-project-until-there-is-peace-in-Palestine.html
She specifically says that she gets questions from kids and usually answers them - and even explicitly points out that if a student from another country had asked those questions, she would have responded differently.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)to imply the 13 year old child was lazy than that the professor was behaving like a complete jackass.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)usually answer their questions, she said. But I have agreed to BDS , and I do want to see justice for Palestinne.
I don't see what all the commotion is about.
She has a right, and you ...ahem and ithers seemingly just want to kvetch about it.
When I see you complain 1/200th at the barbarity that Palestinuan children dace at the hands od the IDF then perhaps your cred will inprove.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I confess I am still somewhat surprised by your response to this, but I guess I shouldn't be.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Because seeking out an expert's opinion is obviously the laziest way to get something done. There's a smell here alright.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)of looking for the answers oneself is lazy. If the girl had done basic research and wanted a clarification or wanted the prof to recommend reading material that would be a different story.
Here's a kid who didn't do the simplest search about horses but spent what must have been a considerable amount of time finding the name and contact info about an expert in another country.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But that she responded the way that she did because this kid was from Israel.
If she had a consistent policy to ignore questions from kids or to direct them to a website with information or even to scold them for their lazy scholarship that would be one thing, but that is clearly not the case here.
She answers questions from kids who write to her, but not Israeli kids.
6chars
(3,967 posts)X = any other place or group. What a horrible person she is.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Where a professor will specifically not respond to a question from a kid because of the country they live in?
6chars
(3,967 posts)this woman is a blight on the academy. whatever rights academics have earned through their efforts and positive effect on society, she takes those rights and pi**es on them.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 1, 2015, 08:55 PM - Edit history (1)
in a different universe?
The professor made her first point clear.
It's not the country. It!s their practices which are at issue.
Perhaps you should write your nearest professor about lessons in candor.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Didferent?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The kid said that she wrote to the person after reading this article:
http://research.vet.upenn.edu/HavemeyerEquineBehaviorLabHomePage/ReferenceLibraryHavemeyerEquineBehaviorLab/HavemeyerWorkshops/HorseBehaviorandWelfare1316June2002/HorseBehaviorandWelfare2/DomesticationBreedDiversificationandEarlyHis/tabid/3127/Default.aspx
The article has Dr. Levine's name and email address at that top of the page.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)of course now it comes up first on a Google search and I am sure we'll be told it's been that way since the it was published and has nothing to do with recent concerns or 'interest'.
shira
(30,109 posts)The girls father read this comment, and forwarded the following response to me via Facebook:
Saw that people think that this was set up to Marsha. Believe me that I never heard her name before. Shachar only called me *after* she got the response. I was not aware that she sent the request. She just Googled and found Marsha research. She red the article and then found her email. Simple as that. Infect we do not want all this mess. We just want to go back to our life and leave all this behind. I just felt it is not someting we can ignore and the wide response show I was right.
- See more at: http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/12/bds-supporting-scholar-refuses-to-answer-science-question-from-israeli-girl/#sthash.Ss39axUo.dpuf
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Because they knew that she was a BDS supporter? And they had this kid send her a question about horses thinking that she might respond in this way?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I am just trying to ascertain if you are actually asserting that this was orchestrated deliberately.
King_David
(14,851 posts)That anyone would support this bully and only 2 regular posters have done that in this group.
Even the most anti Israel posters have condemned this bully ...
The support of two posters in this group for this adult bully is pretty sad , pathetic and disgraceful....
Especially on DU a Democratic Party supporting website....to support bullying of children ,..,.it has no place in our party ...
Supporting Bullies is what the Republican Party does....
Quite disgusting...and shameful
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)My guess is that it was one of the first articles to come up in a Google search on domesticating horses (as it is now).
You seem to be suggesting that she (or someone affiliated with her) deliberately went search for an article by Marsha Norman, knowing that she was a BDS activist, and then emailed her questions about horses, knowing (or suspecting) that she would respond in this manner.
Do you sincerely believe that to be more likely than her just googling the topic, reading an article that comes up, and then writing to the email address of the person who wrote it (which was posted at the top of the article)?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)before I'm not so sure
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If it was not something that just came up in her research about horses, how do you think she arrived at this article?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and a member of a ProPalestinian Jewish group in the UK or it could be just a coincidence
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I had not, and I follow the BDS movement a fair amount. Since I assume you follow it as well, was her name one that was known to you? If so, in what context had you come across her previously?
I just want to understand what you are suggesting may have happened here. You think this kid and/or her parents concocted a plan to make a BDS activist look bad by having this 13-year old send her a series of question about horses with the thought that she would respond in the way that she did?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)has already said she would have answered the child's question if only she hadn't been Israeli, the professor obviously doesn't agree with your assessment. Neither does anyone with a brain who has done actual research and sought out expert advice.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)What Dr Levine is doing isn't morally justified at all. It's simply wrong to target children.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And didn't expect any different reply from you or Jefferson for that matter.
Actually every reply from every poster here in this thread about this Bully professor did not come as a surprise at all- all responses were totally predictable and expected.
Response to King_David (Reply #59)
azurnoir This message was self-deleted by its author.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as it turns out so the question begs asking why did an Israeli student write a BDS advocating retired teacher with such a question, are we to think there are no other experts on the subject, who are currently actively teaching?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And therefore she specifically decided (or was instructed) to ask her these questions about horses because it was known that it would lead to a response like this?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)that never for a moment entered into the selection of decade and a half old article by a retired teacher, why do you think such a thing?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Can you explain what you believe happened here?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Thinking that she would get a response of this nature?
Sorry, we are having the same conversation in two different places on this thread so feel free to answer in either place. I am basically asking you the same question in both conversations.
King_David
(14,851 posts)That anyone defends this bully on DU is disgraceful... And not unexpected from two posters here on this thread.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Even for those who are strong supporters of the BDS movement, I would think that they would have agreed that what this woman did was not appropriate (as some have). In fact, I would think that BDS supporters in particular would be critical of this woman since her actions and subsequent comments reflect very poorly on the movement.
I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that the poster above is suggesting: that somehow this person was sought out and sent a question about horses knowing that she would respond in this way. That seems to be a theory that Dr. Levine is promoting as well. The logistics of how that might have been orchestrated seem to strain credulity.
King_David
(14,851 posts)It's just 2 posters who did not , and if you read some of the OTT posts it's not really a surprise.
It's strange though that anyone would support a Bully of children on a Democratic Party supporting website.... But not surprised at the 2 posters involved here... Not in the least....
shira
(30,109 posts)BDS isn't supposed to single out individuals for boycotting, but here we are with this girl and Matisyahu who isn't even Israeli.
Stinks to high heaven, doesn't it?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Posters here in this thread ...opinions and responses from different personalities, to this adult bully... Were 100% predictable from everyone in this group.
Was not even illuminating nor surprising - at all.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)curious an Israel child would choose her are we toi think there are no other experts who are actively teaching?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12027011/Retired-Cambridge-academic-refuses-to-help-Israeli-girl-with-school-project-until-there-is-peace-in-Palestine.html
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Besides, her answer became the real issue regardless of what happened before.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I would feel differently if she was an active teacher but as a retiree she is under no moral constraint to act on anything but her own wishes and her answer is only an issue because it is being promoted as such by antiBDS advocates
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Her response was inappropriate, and I think the shit flingers deserve some slack.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)For what that is worth.
Too late for a face save ...
Re read thread , maybe you may find it illuminating - nobody else does.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)question everything
(47,470 posts)position and were not free to move around and to form an "organization?"
shira
(30,109 posts)So much for the lie that BDS doesn't target individuals for boycotts.
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)What she thinks she accomplished by doing this is not entirely clear.