Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 01:31 PM Dec 2015

Debunking the 3 D’s of Israeli hasbara – distortions, diversions and defamations

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/distortions-diversions-defamations

On November 27, 2015, a meeting was held in downtown Vancouver, Canada under the title “First Nations & Palestinians at the Frontline of Resistance” organized by the Seriously Free Speech Committee and supported by another 10 community groups (of which Canada Palestine Association-Vancouver was one). On the day of the meeting, the local Zionist apologist paper the Jewish Independent ran an editorial “Co-opting history”, full of the Israeli Hasbara 3 D’s – Distortions, Diversions and Defamations.

Their editorial stated: “The obvious intention is to equate the history of colonial settlement in North America, Canada in particular, with the actions of Israel toward Palestinians.”

Wrong. The editorial conveniently refuses to recognize the Zionist project as settler colonialism, and therefore will not acknowledge that the intention was to draw parallels between settler colonialism in North America and Zionist settler colonialism in Palestine, in addition to exposing “the actions of Israel toward Palestinians”.

The editorial went on to claim: “The concept is flawed at its core, of course, because, as the Palestinian narrative often does, it portrays the Jews as colonial occupiers of Arab land, while denying the legitimacy of ancient and modern claims to the Jewish homeland.”
103 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Debunking the 3 D’s of Israeli hasbara – distortions, diversions and defamations (Original Post) R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 OP
More... R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #1
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #78
To be fair 6chars Dec 2015 #80
Wow. What garbage. Shaktimaan Dec 2015 #88
Great Post King_David Dec 2015 #89
How are you still posting articles from Mondoweiss? oberliner Dec 2015 #2
what is ridiculous is the hijacking of virtually every ProPeace anti-occupation thread posted azurnoir Dec 2015 #6
NO !!! King_David Dec 2015 #11
this is getting rather tired but here once again for ninth time is Rabbi Lerner refuting Rosenberg azurnoir Dec 2015 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author King_David Dec 2015 #26
you really outdid yourself with this one. Mosby Dec 2015 #3
that's not what the article says - some of us actually read stuff ya know here is what is said azurnoir Dec 2015 #5
your propoganda isn't working Mosby Dec 2015 #8
Antisemitic filth .... King_David Dec 2015 #10
The Forward NYT and Haaretz all verified Weiss's remarks azurnoir Dec 2015 #16
Straight people do not get to tell Gays what isn't Homophobic ( some try) King_David Dec 2015 #29
Please there was nothing about homophobia there azurnoir Dec 2015 #31
That post was not about homophobia. nt King_David Dec 2015 #32
you used it as your title line the rest of your post was assumptions azurnoir Dec 2015 #33
The only thing that can be said is that my brilliant argument King_David Dec 2015 #34
whatever you say azurnoir Dec 2015 #35
Oh I got it alright.. King_David Dec 2015 #90
what did you get? state it clearly please azurnoir Dec 2015 #94
No, they didn't. Shaktimaan Dec 2015 #91
isn't it also true that if we were to go along strict Halachic law it is the Matriarchal line not azurnoir Dec 2015 #93
Not really. Shaktimaan Dec 2015 #95
I notice the switch off between culture, DNA and religion as needed even in a single post azurnoir Dec 2015 #96
What do you mean? Shaktimaan Dec 2015 #97
and what exactly is Palestine? azurnoir Dec 2015 #98
WRT what? Shaktimaan Dec 2015 #99
again context is everything azurnoir Dec 2015 #100
I'll admit, you lost me here. Shaktimaan Dec 2015 #101
well you seem to do exactly what Weiss complains about-conflate Jews and Zionist azurnoir Dec 2015 #102
of course I did. Shaktimaan Dec 2015 #103
Yet another antisemitic article from Mondoweiss King_David Dec 2015 #9
and Rabbi Michael Lerner refuted MJ Rosenbergs remarks azurnoir Dec 2015 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author King_David Dec 2015 #25
Lots of self deletes lately. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #73
since you love to sabbat hunter Dec 2015 #4
Oh, I have no idea which ones are paid vs those R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #13
then who are the oens sabbat hunter Dec 2015 #21
There is no chance anyone talking about,or posting articles about Jewish Bloodlines,could possibly King_David Dec 2015 #46
I would prefer to have sabbat hunter Dec 2015 #55
Thou doth protest too much. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #58
reading through the thread it seems there could be example(s) azurnoir Dec 2015 #7
No kidding. Some are working round the clock R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #12
The 3-Ds are alive and well in this thread. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #14
The article is filth. Here you go, say this loud & clear for the admins.... shira Dec 2015 #15
Genes Suggest European Women at Root of Ashkenazi Family Tree R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #19
Jewish Women's Genes Traced Mostly to Europe — Not Israel R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #20
So say it. What are you waiting for? n/t shira Dec 2015 #23
A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #37
Genetics Expert Insists 75% of Jews Share Roots in Middle East shira Dec 2015 #27
Sure. Like the bible. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #28
Yes. Shaktimaan Dec 2015 #92
If Weiss had said this of Mizrahi Jews your outrage would be understandable and well placed azurnoir Dec 2015 #22
Mizrahi Jews could marry converted women of the mideast going back centuries......so? shira Dec 2015 #24
Weiss did not say European Jews were not Jews he said European Jews were not azurnoir Dec 2015 #30
What's really laughable is this Jewish "bloodline " thing you're obsessed about . King_David Dec 2015 #36
Why does such obsession with the "Jewish bloodline" give me the willies? 6chars Dec 2015 #38
well why don't you tell us why it gives you the willies azurnoir Dec 2015 #41
The willies come from the claim that since Ashkenasi Jews aren't racially pure.... shira Dec 2015 #53
It is like a stalker sniffing your underwear 6chars Dec 2015 #72
Pathetic.... King_David Dec 2015 #45
Supremacy has nothing to do with genetics. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #47
" being racially unpure." King_David Dec 2015 #48
You'd expect to see this type of talk on Storm Front, not a Democratic forum. grossproffit Dec 2015 #49
Exactly King_David Dec 2015 #50
The supremacists have this problem with R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #51
Do you personally believe most Ashkenasi are racially impure & thus.... shira Dec 2015 #52
There is no purity or impurity, there is only genetics... R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #56
So Ashkenasi have no claim to a Jewish homeland in Israel due to genetics? n/t shira Dec 2015 #59
If an Ashkenazi wants to consider themselves racially pure, R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #62
Do you agree with the author? Mosby Dec 2015 #61
I;m not the one running up and down here going about Weiss's statement being antisemitic filth azurnoir Dec 2015 #39
If it's not antisemitic filth, you should have no problem agreeing that since.... shira Dec 2015 #54
You are becoming unhinged with your buzzwords, shira. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #57
You're deflecting. Do those genetics disqualify Ashkenasi from a Jewish homeland in Israel? shira Dec 2015 #60
Oh, I never deflect when I see you becoming unhinged. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #69
Gee, you just did it again. You can't answer a simple question. shira Dec 2015 #75
... R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #83
are you trying to threaten me ? azurnoir Dec 2015 #63
Whatever you say, dave. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #40
This is the only thing anyone needs to know about the article and the entire conflict. aranthus Dec 2015 #42
+1 King_David Dec 2015 #43
THIS!!! grossproffit Dec 2015 #44
All you need is one paragraph to make the OP racist. Little Tich Dec 2015 #64
Agreed King_David Dec 2015 #65
agreed except it is in part the DNA connection that forms the basis of the claim not only to Israel azurnoir Dec 2015 #66
I don't agree with the arguments in the OP in general, but that doesn't really matter. Little Tich Dec 2015 #67
were it not for the factor I mentioned I would agree wholeheartedly azurnoir Dec 2015 #68
Its all laughable nonsense anyhow azurnoir..... Israeli Dec 2015 #70
Who can really play the "I'm racially pure" game anyway. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #74
No one here is playing that game. It's your article that brings up racial purity. n/t shira Dec 2015 #76
Actually, you are doing that. R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #84
Only the racist author of that Mondoweiss OP you posted is doing that. shira Dec 2015 #85
If anything, the author proves that the three Ds R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2015 #86
How can you possibly say "agreed" ???? King_David Dec 2015 #71
I think she's waiting for 1 of us to agree w/ her first before she calls it racist shira Dec 2015 #77
Hardly you will never agree this comment says it all azurnoir Dec 2015 #82
I have no idea what connection you're trying to make. shira Dec 2015 #87
I defended the DNA study that you condemn, really you need to read the comment you're replying to azurnoir Dec 2015 #81
What's racist about bringing Jordan into an I/P discussion? shira Dec 2015 #79
 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
1. More...
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 01:32 PM
Dec 2015
Wrong again, and on more than one account.

First, the Palestinian narrative doesn’t “portray the Jews as colonial occupiers of Arab land”, it portrays the Zionists (not THE Jews) as settler colonial occupiers of Arab land. For a paper that claims to be opposed to anti-Semitism, conflating all Jews with Zionism and putting the ills of Zionism on the shoulders of all Jews is a dangerous slide into anti-Semitism.

Second, there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #1)

6chars

(3,967 posts)
80. To be fair
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 01:25 PM
Dec 2015

Palestinians are using knives, guns and cars mostly these days. Their innovations in suicide bombing have been adopted by ISIS and other organizations, along with earlier innovations in fomenting revolution such as hijacking airplanes.

Meanwhile, Israel foments revolution in medicine and technology.

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
88. Wow. What garbage.
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 02:42 AM
Dec 2015
First, the Palestinian narrative doesn’t “portray the Jews as colonial occupiers of Arab land”, it portrays the Zionists (not THE Jews) as settler colonial occupiers of Arab land. For a paper that claims to be opposed to anti-Semitism, conflating all Jews with Zionism and putting the ills of Zionism on the shoulders of all Jews is a dangerous slide into anti-Semitism.


Oh, I see now. It's not that they are portraying the Jews are colonial occupiers of Arab land... it's only the Jews who are occupying Arab land that they're portraying as occupying Arab land! See the difference?! They don't think that Jews in New York or Paris are colonial occupiers of Arab land. How could they be! They're in Paris or wherever.

He then takes it a step further by insinuating that anyone who claims that a connection exists between Zionism and Judaism is anti-semitic. Because everyone knows who the real anti-semites are... the Zionists, of course.

Second, there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

Most European Jews who founded the idea of political Zionism have no relation to the original Jews (Hebrews) of the Holy Land. A recent report about a new DNA study, carried in leading newspapers like the NY Times and Haaretz, and highlighted in the prominent Jewish American journal Forward, found that “The maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews comes mainly from Europe…”.


I have to say, it's difficult to pay attention to anything else in this article when a doozy like this line exists. What's really weird about it is that the author isn't really rejecting the historical reality of the Jewish homeland's existence in Palestine so much as he rejects the idea that Ashkenazi Jews can lay any claim to it. And since Zionism was a movement begun by Ashkenazi Jews, this supposedly delegitimizes the entire movement.

This argument has more than a few flaws. First of all, it's untrue. Ashkenazi Jews' DNA HAS been definitively traced back to the Middle East. The new studies referenced here are all talking exclusively about MATERNAL ancestry. This is because all previous studies relied on tracing the Y chromosomes, which were of Middle Eastern origin. I suspect the author knew this, which means he's being deliberately dishonest. Either that or he does not know anything about this subject matter.

More distressing, he seems to think that Hertzl and the entirety of the Ashkenazi Zionist movement was somehow aware, (or should have been aware), of the results of this recent DNA study over 100 years ago when founding Zionism. He goes on to ponder that since these founding Zionists have no ancestral connection to Biblical Jews, it can be surmised that their sense of entitlement to colonize Palestine can probably be attributed to a philosophy of white supremacy.

He also, (wrongly), states that there was a Zionist desire to build Israel somewhere else, anywhere else, which I suppose was included to imply that the Zionists didn't care about their historical connection to their supposed homeland as much as they just wanted to colonize SOMEPLACE. This is because Zionists just fucking love colonizing. They can't get enough of it. As long as there's some indigenous people to oppress, (it doesn't have to be Palestinians), then they're all for it. Of course, the Uganda Proposal was flatly rejected by the vast majority of early Zionists precisely because it was not their actual homeland. The draw of Palestine was the deep historical, spiritual and religious connection that Jews have with it. While the quest for self-determination was deemed critical enough that some Zionists were willing to compromise on location, it speaks to the deep commitment these Jews had with Palestine that the proposal was so flatly rejected.

The author seems to think that cultural and historic traditions such as this are invalid when compared to the reality of genetics. Actually, that's not true at all. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to pretend that Ashkenazi Jews' genetics don't lead directly back to Palestine.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
6. what is ridiculous is the hijacking of virtually every ProPeace anti-occupation thread posted
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 03:49 PM
Dec 2015

by certain parties here but even that in and of itself along with the apparent refusal to discuss what posted other the source speaks for something

King_David

(14,851 posts)
11. NO !!!
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 04:20 PM
Dec 2015

Pro Peace is not posting from known bigoted websites ....pro peace writer
MJ Rosenberg has correctly labeled Mondoweiss websites antisemitic.

http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2014/03/16/is-anti-semitism-dead/

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
18. this is getting rather tired but here once again for ninth time is Rabbi Lerner refuting Rosenberg
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 05:28 PM
Dec 2015

14 Responses to “Mondoweiss & Is Anti-Semitism Dead?”
Rabbi Michael Lerner
March 16, 2014 at 10:48 am
I’ve always been thrilled to have MJ Rosenberg as one of our bloggers. But I have to strongly object to calling Mondoweiss Anti-Semitic. I do believe that their constant criticism of Israel is unfair, one-sided, and shows none of the compassion that we progressives ought to be showing to those with whom we disagree. I do often disagree with articles that are published on that site (but then again, I often disagree with articles published on this Tikkun Daily blog, and I’m the editor (who believes in free speech). Yet I think it is a disservice to the term ‘anti-Semitism” to use it as equivalent to having unfair and excessive criticism of Israel. The term means “hating Jews and wishing them ill,” and I don’t believe that the editors at Mondoweiss fit that description. Nor do I think it appropriate for our Tikkun Daily blog to be a place where we throw that term around except where it applies–to groups that do in fact hate Jews and wish Jews ill. There are such groups, and they have been popping up all over Europe once again and most recently in the Ukraine. So I want to apologize to Mondoweiss for this article and urge all who use this site to avoid those kinds of accusations unless they are backed up with detailed specific examples that prove the charge beyond a reasonable doubt. –Rabbi Michael Lerner, Editor, Tikkun

http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2014/03/16/is-anti-semitism-dead/

Thanks for providing the link for me

Response to azurnoir (Reply #18)

Mosby

(16,297 posts)
3. you really outdid yourself with this one.
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 03:23 PM
Dec 2015

The Ashkenazi don't have Jewish blood so they aren't really part of the Jewish Tribe?

This essay is Antisemitic filth that no Liberal or Progressive should support.





azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
5. that's not what the article says - some of us actually read stuff ya know here is what is said
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 03:41 PM
Dec 2015

• Most European Jews who founded the idea of political Zionism have no relation to the original Jews (Hebrews) of the Holy Land. A recent report about a new DNA study, carried in leading newspapers like the NY Times and Haaretz, and highlighted in the prominent Jewish American journal Forward, found that “The maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews comes mainly from Europe…”.


- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/distortions-diversions-defamations#sthash.5iKrECv5.dpuf

here are links to the articles in the 3 publications mentioned

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/science/ashkenazi-origins-may-be-with-european-women-study-finds.html?_r=0

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/.premium-1.551825

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/185399/jewish-womens-genes-traced-mostly-to-europe-not/

posted in rely to

Star Member Mosby (5,645 posts)
3. you really outdid yourself with this one.

The Ashkenazi don't have Jewish blood so they aren't really part of the Jewish Tribe?

This essay is Antisemitic filth that no Liberal or Progressive should support.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=121520

Mosby

(16,297 posts)
8. your propoganda isn't working
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 03:54 PM
Dec 2015

The section you highlighted is prefaced with this:

Second, there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine.


Which then uses this as proof:

Most European Jews who founded the idea of political Zionism have no relation to the original Jews (Hebrews) of the Holy Land. A recent report about a new DNA study, carried in leading newspapers like the NY Times and Haaretz, and highlighted in the prominent Jewish American journal Forward, found that “The maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews comes mainly from Europe…”.


The author is claiming that the Ashkenazi are not "Hebrews" so they have no claim to Israel.

It's Antisemitic garbage. I can't believe anyone is defending it.

So why don't you say it out loud for the admins azur, that Israel cannot be a homeland for the European Jews because they might not have "Hebrew" blood.


King_David

(14,851 posts)
10. Antisemitic filth ....
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 03:57 PM
Dec 2015

And unbelievable there's 2 posters agreeing with this hate and that its posted here on a Democratic Party site.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
16. The Forward NYT and Haaretz all verified Weiss's remarks
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 05:23 PM
Dec 2015

bee 'outraged' all you wish but it does not impress me in the slightest

King_David

(14,851 posts)
29. Straight people do not get to tell Gays what isn't Homophobic ( some try)
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 06:24 PM
Dec 2015

I don't get to tell Muslim people what isn't Islamaphobic.....

I feel the same way about you telling me/Jews what isn't antisemitic.....

It's downright offensive...

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
31. Please there was nothing about homophobia there
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 06:43 PM
Dec 2015

and you make assumptions about people here you have no right to

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
33. you used it as your title line the rest of your post was assumptions
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 07:13 PM
Dec 2015

about people here. something that also could be called offensive

King_David

(14,851 posts)
34. The only thing that can be said is that my brilliant argument
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 07:21 PM
Dec 2015

and brilliant debating technique of making brilliant usage of the title line actually demolished your argument and hence your upset .

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
91. No, they didn't.
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 03:15 AM
Dec 2015

They verified that new research showed a high percentage of Ashkenazi matrilineal genetics are of European origin. They did NOT say that "there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine."

That's probably because the statement is both offensive and untrue, as Ashkenazi patrilineal DNA are of Middle Eastern origin.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
93. isn't it also true that if we were to go along strict Halachic law it is the Matriarchal line not
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 03:40 AM
Dec 2015

the patrilineal line that counts for who is and is not a Jew? In any event as I said weeks ago there is a religious connection between Jews and Israel even if the DNA line is not necessarily 'pure'

eta and yes I am also aware that sometime around 1970 or so Israel changed the Law of Return to allow those who's Fathers but not Mothers were Jewish tp emigrate

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
95. Not really.
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 04:15 AM
Dec 2015

That's only applicable if the mother did not convert, which even the OP goes out of its way to offer historical evidence for. The point of the OP was that the ancestors of modern Ashkenazi Jews were European converts, thus terminating any direct genetic connection 20th century Zionists might have had with biblical Jews, which is not merely an offensive argument but totally untrue.

The idea that any culture's identity can be proven to be illegitimate based on any number of self-serving metrics is simply disgusting. The implication here was that for millions of people who were/are raised as Jews, their deep historical, cultural and religious ties to Palestine are, in fact, fraudulent. This is a new spin on an old and common disenfranchisement tactic, such as the Khazar conspiracy theory.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
96. I notice the switch off between culture, DNA and religion as needed even in a single post
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 04:27 AM
Dec 2015

however Weiss's who is himself an Ashkenazi Jew point seemed to be that line to complete rulership of Palestine is not as pure and direct as some would have folks believe

and the caveat about conversion is and was not really applied to the Law of Return prior to 1970

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
97. What do you mean?
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 05:12 AM
Dec 2015
I notice the switch off between culture, DNA and religion as needed even in a single post


I don't know what you're implying. Judaism is an ethno-religious nationality. There are many different facets to being Jewish, and not all of them carry the same importance depending on the individual.

however Weiss's who is himself an Ashkenazi Jew point seemed to be that line to complete rulership of Palestine is not as pure and direct as some would have folks believe


Bullshit. I saw exactly what he weote...

Second, there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine.


and the caveat about conversion is and was not really applied to the Law of Return prior to 1970


What do you mean "not really applied" before 1970? Spouses who converted were always considered Jewish. They always qualified to immigrate under the RoR

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
98. and what exactly is Palestine?
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 07:30 AM
Dec 2015

youu see what I'm betting is you will claim he means Israel within the Green Line along with Judea, Samaria , and Gaza I've even seen Jordan thrown in for good measure when it suits the need of the moment or does he mean what 139(?) countries recognize as Palestine which is Judea,Samaria, and Gaza?

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
99. WRT what?
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 10:23 AM
Dec 2015

Are you asking what I think he means Palestine is regarding this quote?

Second, there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine.


If so I believe it's pretty obvious he's talking about the region in its entirety. Mandate Palestine including Jordan and maybe part of Syria. He's referencing Hertzl's decisions wrt his genetic heritage, after all. It's not like there was any other Palestine back then.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
100. again context is everything
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 01:06 PM
Dec 2015

On November 27, 2015, a meeting was held in downtown Vancouver, Canada under the title “First Nations & Palestinians at the Frontline of Resistance” organized by the Seriously Free Speech Committee and supported by another 10 community groups (of which Canada Palestine Association-Vancouver was one). On the day of the meeting, the local Zionist apologist paper the Jewish Independent ran an editorial “Co-opting history”, full of the Israeli Hasbara 3 D’s – Distortions, Diversions and Defamations.

Their editorial stated: “The obvious intention is to equate the history of colonial settlement in North America, Canada in particular, with the actions of Israel toward Palestinians.”

Wrong. The editorial conveniently refuses to recognize the Zionist project as settler colonialism, and therefore will not acknowledge that the intention was to draw parallels between settler colonialism in North America and Zionist settler colonialism in Palestine, in addition to exposing “the actions of Israel toward Palestinians”.

The editorial went on to claim: “The concept is flawed at its core, of course, because, as the Palestinian narrative often does, it portrays the Jews as colonial occupiers of Arab land, while denying the legitimacy of ancient and modern claims to the Jewish homeland.”

Wrong again, and on more than one account.

First, the Palestinian narrative doesn’t “portray the Jews as colonial occupiers of Arab land”, it portrays the Zionists (not THE Jews) as settler colonial occupiers of Arab land. For a paper that claims to be opposed to anti-Semitism, conflating all Jews with Zionism and putting the ills of Zionism on the shoulders of all Jews is a dangerous slide into anti-Semitism.

Second, there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine.


- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/distortions-diversions-defamations#sthash.mkZ0h2Rf.dpuf

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
101. I'll admit, you lost me here.
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:05 AM
Dec 2015
First, the Palestinian narrative doesn’t “portray the Jews as colonial occupiers of Arab land”, it portrays the Zionists (not THE Jews) as settler colonial occupiers of Arab land.


Sooo, it doesn't portray the Jews as colonial occupiers; it portrays the Zionists, (aka: Jews), as settler colonial occupiers.

That's dumb. Like, incredibly dumb. You bolded it... Was that to demonstrate how dumb it is, or for some other reason?

If "THE Jews" must refer to ALL Jews then "THE Zionists" surely refers to ALL Zionists, yes? So, according to this author, all Zionists, from Bernie Sanders to my grandmother, are settler colonial occupiers.

Obama is a Zionist. I guess the Palestinian narrative says that he's a settler! Damn!

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
102. well you seem to do exactly what Weiss complains about-conflate Jews and Zionist
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 02:13 AM
Dec 2015
Sooo, it doesn't portray the Jews as colonial occupiers; it portrays the Zionists, (aka: Jews), as settler colonial occupiers.


eta Weiss's diatribe concerns only Ashkenazi Jews not Mizrahi or Sephardic Jews

Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
103. of course I did.
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 03:32 AM
Dec 2015

His argument is basically that referring to "the Jews as colonial occupiers" must mean "ALL THE Jews" which is absurd. The Palestinian narrative certainly is that the Jews are occupying Arab land. The fact that these Jews are necessarily Zionist as well goes without saying. In fact, if we look at examples of this narrative and discourse surrounding it we can see the two terms being used practically interchangeably.

Besides, it misses the real point in the article it was critiquing. That the Palestinian narrative sees all of Palestine as Arab land, exclusively. They reject any Jewish/Zionist claim to Israel as it's own historic homeland, a trait they share with the author of this piece of dreck.

eta Weiss's diatribe concerns only Ashkenazi Jews not Mizrahi or Sephardic Jews


Correct, which I find confusing. If his argument is that the lack of a genetic thread linking Zionists to biblical Israelis invalidates their claim to a modern homeland, then he's missing several parts of the equation re: sephardic and mizrahi Jews. Despite this, his claim is false anyway as Ashkenazi paternal DNA links them to the near east.

He makes several other points. The following quote I was unable to find any reference for anywhere:

“Zionism strives to create for the Jewish people a homeland in Palestine secured by public law. The congress contemplates the following means to the attainment of this end – The promotion on suitable lines of the colonization (my emphasis) of Palestine by Jewish agricultural and industrial workers.”


I did find many repeated links to a different version that lacks his mention of colonization. Here's a link to it:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/First_Cong_&_Basel_Program.html

Another point he made:
Theodor Hertzl and most European Zionists were willing to accept any other country for their settler colonialist project:- “Herzl turned to Great Britain and met with Joseph Chamberlain, the British colonial secretary and others high ranking officials who agreed in principle to Jewish settlement in East Africa.”


This is also untrue. Uganda was proposed as a temporary stopgap solution for Russian Jews facing anti-semitism until their ultimate plan of a state in Palestine could be engaged. The link he provided confirms this.

Or are (Ashkenazi) Jews, who have no roots in Palestine, considered from the “Chosen people” simply because they are white and “CIVILISED” in colonialist terms? Theodor Herzl, considered the founder of political Zionism, wrote in his book The Jewish State in 1896: “We should there form a portion of the rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism.”


Well, they DID have roots in Palestine. More importantly, even if they did not have genetic ties to Palestine, their millennium-long held culture, religion and shared identities are what constitute "roots." Not an invisible and then-unheard of genetic history. The craven attempt at painting Hertzl as a white-supremacist is funny though.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
9. Yet another antisemitic article from Mondoweiss
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 03:56 PM
Dec 2015

Mondoweiss has supported Ann Coulter agains charges of bigotry and recently supported Donald Trump against charges of Antisemitism.

MJ Rosenberg has correctly labeled Mondoweiss as an antisemitic site.

Two posters in this group continue to support this antisemitic website- I wonder why?

This article is crap....

Response to azurnoir (Reply #17)

sabbat hunter

(6,828 posts)
4. since you love to
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 03:39 PM
Dec 2015

post stuff from Mondoweiss, accusations such as "There are plenty of operatives on DU, IMHO, that would never vote D ever.
But they like to pretend they speak for the Democratic party all the time. Know them by their works." and say that people are Hasbaras

would you care to name names of people here on DU that would never vote D or are paid propagandists?

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
13. Oh, I have no idea which ones are paid vs those
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 04:34 PM
Dec 2015

that do it for free; mainly due to the obvious inclination of their amaturish nature.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
46. There is no chance anyone talking about,or posting articles about Jewish Bloodlines,could possibly
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:47 PM
Dec 2015
be supporting the Democratic Party ....we even have a candidate with our very own Jewish Bloodline....

sabbat hunter

(6,828 posts)
55. I would prefer to have
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 07:12 PM
Dec 2015

R Daniel answer on who they think here on DU, and I/P in particular, would never vote D

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
15. The article is filth. Here you go, say this loud & clear for the admins....
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 05:08 PM
Dec 2015

....because this is basically what the article argues:

"Israel is not a homeland for European Jews because they don't have hebrew blood." IOW, they're not real Jews descended from the original Hebrews.

If that's not bigoted, why don't you repeat it?

Maybe tell me that since I'm Ashkenasi, and I am, that I don't have hebrew blood and Israel cannot be my homeland either.

Let's see it.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
19. Genes Suggest European Women at Root of Ashkenazi Family Tree
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 05:32 PM
Dec 2015
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/science/ashkenazi-origins-may-be-with-european-women-study-finds.html?

Over the last 15 years geneticists have identified links between the world’s Jewish communities that point to a common ancestry as well as a common religion. Still, the origin of one of the most important Jewish populations, the Ashkenazim of Central and Eastern Europe, has remained a mystery.

A new genetic analysis has now filled in another piece of the origins puzzle, pointing to European women as the principal female founders, and to the Jewish community of the early Roman empire as the possible source of the Ashkenazi ancestors.
---
The finding establishes that the women who founded the Ashkenazi Jewish community of Europe were not from the Near East, as previously supposed, and reinforces the idea that many Jewish communities outside Israel were founded by single men who married and converted local women.


 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
20. Jewish Women's Genes Traced Mostly to Europe — Not Israel
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 05:36 PM
Dec 2015
http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/185399/jewish-womens-genes-traced-mostly-to-europe-not/

The maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews comes mainly from Europe, a new study shows.

The findings, published in the journal Nature Communications, fly in the face of the commonly accepted notion that European Ashkenazim are descended from Jews who left Israel and the Middle East some 2,000 years ago and moved to the Near East. The study suggests that large numbers of European women converted to Judaism.

Martin Richards of the University of Huddersfield in England led a team of researchers from Russia, the Czech Republic, Portugal and the United States that looked at mitochondrial DNA, which is contained in the cytoplasm of the egg and is passed down through the maternal line.
More than 80 percent of the 3,500 DNA samples studies were traced to Europe. The 80 percent is made up of four maternal lines.


 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
37. A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 08:13 PM
Dec 2015
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html

The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.


azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
22. If Weiss had said this of Mizrahi Jews your outrage would be understandable and well placed
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 05:47 PM
Dec 2015

but he did not

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
24. Mizrahi Jews could marry converted women of the mideast going back centuries......so?
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 05:53 PM
Dec 2015

Palestinians could've married Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Libyans over the centuries..........so?

Do Palestinians have to be 100% descended - going back thousands of years - in order to count?

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
30. Weiss did not say European Jews were not Jews he said European Jews were not
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 06:41 PM
Dec 2015

"people of the book" the term he used was Hebrews - on a religious basis the connection to Israel is there it's the biological one that is being called into question

King_David

(14,851 posts)
36. What's really laughable is this Jewish "bloodline " thing you're obsessed about .
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 07:30 PM
Dec 2015

Jewish bloodline is of so much interest to 2 people in this thread .

I wonder if there's any other peoples' besides Jews whom the bloodline is so important.

Sickening.

6chars

(3,967 posts)
38. Why does such obsession with the "Jewish bloodline" give me the willies?
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 08:31 PM
Dec 2015

and the obsession with the genetics of the Jew. We all know the history, Jews left Israel, there was some mixing with other populations through various arrangements, but not much.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
53. The willies come from the claim that since Ashkenasi Jews aren't racially pure....
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 06:10 PM
Dec 2015

....therefore they have no claim to a Jewish homeland in Israel.

Now, do you believe that racist swill or not?

6chars

(3,967 posts)
72. It is like a stalker sniffing your underwear
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 10:21 AM
Dec 2015

A little interest in people is flattering. At a certain point, it becomes quite creepy and you wonder why there is so much interest and whether all this interest is not about you, but about the stalker. At this point, you start to wonder whether the stalker might have harmful intents.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
45. Pathetic....
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:40 PM
Dec 2015

We used to be told that we Jews were genetically inferior , and just plain inferior. (bloodlines)

now days we told we are supremacists .... LOL ....(bloodlines)

Willies indeed.....

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
47. Supremacy has nothing to do with genetics.
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 11:02 AM
Dec 2015

Supremacy, especially the cultural or ethnic version, is something borne out of ignorance and arrogance. I guess an example would be where the right wingzionists feel superior to Palestinians while creating anapartheid state.

So one may be a supremacist while denigrating others by being racially unpure.

But pointing out genetics, as an indication of geographic origin, is neither supremacist or an indication of inferiority: that is unless those who aren't happy with their genetic origin want to pretend that they are of some pure blood line.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
48. " being racially unpure."
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 11:42 AM
Dec 2015

WTF says or thinks such things...



What on earth are you doing posting on a Democratic Party website like DU ???

Sickening....

Please just stop.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
51. The supremacists have this problem with
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 02:25 PM
Dec 2015

labeling others as racially unpure, dave.

Like The JewishHome party. They're full of racists.

But please, keep clutching at those pearls: poorly attempting to paint me as a bigot.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
52. Do you personally believe most Ashkenasi are racially impure & thus....
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 05:55 PM
Dec 2015

....have no claim to a homeland in Israel?

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
56. There is no purity or impurity, there is only genetics...
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 07:37 PM
Dec 2015

If an Ashkenazi wants to consider themselves racially pure then that is their decision.

There is enough evidence to suggest that they are a heterogeneous group so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

Genes Suggest European Women at Root of Ashkenazi Family Tree
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/science/ashkenazi-origins-may-be-with-european-women-study-finds.html?_r=1

Jewish Women's Genes Traced Mostly to Europe — Not Israel

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/185399/jewish-womens-genes-traced-mostly-to-europe-not/





 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
62. If an Ashkenazi wants to consider themselves racially pure,
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 09:00 PM
Dec 2015

and live with others that want to belueve in the same thing, then that is their decision...just as long as their belife in their purity doesn't adversely affect some other group.

Mosby

(16,297 posts)
61. Do you agree with the author?
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:21 PM
Dec 2015

Do you agree with the author that: "...there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine."?

Simple yes or no question RDO.


azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
39. I;m not the one running up and down here going about Weiss's statement being antisemitic filth
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 08:33 PM
Dec 2015

nor am I the one(s) who seem obsessed about it and again an implied assumption that has a no true Scotsman ring to it

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
54. If it's not antisemitic filth, you should have no problem agreeing that since....
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 06:15 PM
Dec 2015

....most Ashkenasi Jews aren't racially pure, then they have no claim to a Jewish homeland in Israel.

Why don't you agree with that LOUD AND CLEAR FOR ALL THE ADMINS HERE if it's not antisemitic filth?

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
57. You are becoming unhinged with your buzzwords, shira.
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 07:44 PM
Dec 2015

There was nothing in the OP about racially impure or pure.

I merely used it to show that only assholes believe that nonsense...and as usual some want to take it out of context and hyperventilate.
 

shira

(30,109 posts)
60. You're deflecting. Do those genetics disqualify Ashkenasi from a Jewish homeland in Israel?
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:08 PM
Dec 2015

That's what the OP claims.

Do you agree with it - Yes or No?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
75. Gee, you just did it again. You can't answer a simple question.
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 12:26 PM
Dec 2015

Mosby asked a similar question to mine in #61 above, and you're avoiding that one too.

Do you agree with the author that: "...there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine."?

Simple yes or no question RDO.


Why are you having such difficulty answering?

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
63. are you trying to threaten me ?
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 09:49 PM
Dec 2015

proclaim it for admins? Really? the gottcha game you're attempting here based on a speech made by the POTUS is transparent and bespdes I already answered your qiestion here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=121549

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
42. This is the only thing anyone needs to know about the article and the entire conflict.
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 10:39 PM
Dec 2015

"Second, there is no legitimacy (not ancient nor modern) for Zionist claims to a Jewish homeland in Palestine."

That is the only reason that there has been a war for the last 70 years. The only reason that there have been all those deaths. The only reason that there are refugees. The only reason that there isn't peace and likely never will be. The only cause for all of it is that Palestinians and people like you believe the stupid, vile, antisemitic lie stated in that quote from the article. I know you don't care, but every affective Jew, and every decent thinking person who isn't some antisemitic Leftist knows it. Keep it up. All you're doing is convincing the rest of us that there is no point in talking to you or the Palestinians. And it is the Palestinians that will suffer for that. You'd think that was something that the hate Israel crowd might care about.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
64. All you need is one paragraph to make the OP racist.
Fri Dec 11, 2015, 11:55 PM
Dec 2015
• Most European Jews who founded the idea of political Zionism have no relation to the original Jews (Hebrews) of the Holy Land. A recent report about a new DNA study, carried in leading newspapers like the NY Times and Haaretz, and highlighted in the prominent Jewish American journal Forward, found that “The maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews comes mainly from Europe…”.


The purity of a person's ancestry shouldn't be important. This is just as bad as saying that Palestinians come from Jordan.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
66. agreed except it is in part the DNA connection that forms the basis of the claim not only to Israel
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 12:13 AM
Dec 2015

proper (within the Green Line) but also and far more importantly the West Bank are Jewish territory and that Palestinians have no real claim, myself I think the OP over all was refuting the revisionist Zionism that has taken hold once again

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
67. I don't agree with the arguments in the OP in general, but that doesn't really matter.
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 12:35 AM
Dec 2015

The argument about purity of blood can never be anything but racist, and should be avoided. I still think Mondoweiss is OK as a source, though.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
68. were it not for the factor I mentioned I would agree wholeheartedly
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 01:16 AM
Dec 2015

but the argument about purity of blood is being made from both sides, it is every bit as racist to say 'we' have a right to this land because we are directly descended from the inhabitants who lived here 2000 years ago

Israeli

(4,141 posts)
70. Its all laughable nonsense anyhow azurnoir.....
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 03:27 AM
Dec 2015

Have you any idea how many converts to Judaism live here today ....

young Israelis travel all over the world after their army service , they meet their future spouses and bring them home ....if they want to marry and live here its much easier to convert .

In my day half the young people on my kibbutz married volunteers ...most of them from Sweden or Denmark .

Then there are the Russians ...the supermarket chain Tiv Ta'am has Xmas decorations and music this time of the year .
The in thing for high school kids now is Xmas parties not forgetting Sylvester parties :

http://tin.tv/site/article/%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%92/do-you-know-what-%E2%80%9Csylvester%E2%80%9D-is

Most young secular dont give a damn for any religion ....and who could blame them.

Its easier to convert than one might think , see :
http://www.gov.il/FirstGov/TopNavEng/EngSituations/ESConversion/ESCNewProcess/

Modern Israel has moved on from ..." the inhabitants who lived here 2000 years ago ".

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
74. Who can really play the "I'm racially pure" game anyway.
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 10:39 AM
Dec 2015

Firstly, I wouldn't label somebody like that, but others have attempted to say that I have.

Secondly, I come frome a heterogeneous background.

Some may call the heterogeneous "mutts", but I'd rather be that than pretend that I am some thoroughbred creation.

I'm not sure why some want to play tat game, though. Perhaos it guves them comfort?

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
84. Actually, you are doing that.
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 02:36 PM
Dec 2015

Last edited Sat Dec 12, 2015, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

The OP article talks specifically about ashkenazi origins.

Some just aren't able to handle that without going to pieces.

I'm surprised that they aren't screaming about blood gene libel.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
85. Only the racist author of that Mondoweiss OP you posted is doing that.
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 02:43 PM
Dec 2015

Not only that - you won't even answer whether you agree with the OP you posted.

What do you fear?

King_David

(14,851 posts)
71. How can you possibly say "agreed" ????
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 07:58 AM
Dec 2015

You have just given a spirited defense of this racist , bigoted , antisemitic crap of an OP throughout this thread .....

And now you say "agreed" that this Mondoweiss piece is antisemitic crap ???

Go back and read the thread .....especially the posts you wrote defending this antisemitic filth....

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
77. I think she's waiting for 1 of us to agree w/ her first before she calls it racist
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 12:32 PM
Dec 2015

She won't condemn anything outright & unequivocally w/o first condemning Israel or Zionists in the process. In this case, "Zionists do the same thing" so we're no better than Mondoweiss. Acknowledge that first, then "I'll condemn Mondoweiss....". But not too badly because the anti-Zionist articles are good....and Mondoweiss should still be posted here because it bothers Zionists.


 

shira

(30,109 posts)
87. I have no idea what connection you're trying to make.
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 07:38 PM
Dec 2015

How is the Zionist view racist?

Or my view?

Explain clearly.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
79. What's racist about bringing Jordan into an I/P discussion?
Sat Dec 12, 2015, 12:57 PM
Dec 2015

Jordan was part of Palestine 100 years ago. A few years later, all that land including Jordan was promised to Jews as their homeland.

Should Jews take offense to people arguing they come from Jordan? That was Palestine 100 years ago and part of the Jewish homeland.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Israel/Palestine»Debunking the 3 D’s of Is...