Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsrael: 'Not enough evidence' to convict Douma arsonists -
3 members of the Dawabsheh family including 18-month-old Ali either died in the fire or subsequently
Tuesday 15 December 2015 11:18 UTC
Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon said on Tuesday that there was "not enough evidence" to detain or prosecute suspects in the Duma arson murders, in which several members of the Dawabsheh family were killed.
Yaalon told Army Radio that the July attack in the West Bank was "clearly a Jewish attack that I am ashamed of" and said that his ministry knew who was behind the killings but that they simply did not have enough evidence to take the case to trial.
According to Israeli Haaretz on Monday, the deputy attorney general for criminal law told a Knesset committee that "extraordinary measures" were used when the three suspects were interrogated.
The attack, which happened on 31 July and was carried out by masked attackers, sparked protests throughout the West Bank after 18-month-old Ali Dawabsheh died in the fire. His mother and father have since died of their injuries while his four-year-old brother remains in serious condition.
- See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-not-enough-evidence-convict-douma-arsonists-47834863#sthash.exYXfIQT.dpuf
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oberliner
(58,724 posts)Israeli Defense Minister: Not Enough Evidence to Prosecute West Bank Arson Suspects
Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon said Tuesday that Israel does not currently have enough evidence to detain or prosecute the suspects in the Duma arson murders.
Ya'alon told Army Radio that the July firebomb attack that killed three members of the Dawabsheh is "clearly a Jewish attack that I am ashamed of" and that the defense establishment knows the members of group behind the attack. However, Ya'alon repeated that there is "not enough evidence against them."
On Monday, the deputy attorney general for criminal law told a Knesset committee that "extraordinary measures" have been used in questioning the suspects currently in custody.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.691924
The "Middle East Eye" literally just rearranged the words a bit in the first two paragraphs of the Ha'aretz article and then claim it was written by their own staff.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Tuesday 15 December 2015 11:18 UTC
Last update:
Tuesday 15 December 2015 12:26 UTC
- See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-not-enough-evidence-convict-douma-arsonists-47834863#sthash.exYXfIQT.QHq9fK9N.dpuf
Haaretz Dec 15, 2015 12:47 PM
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.691924
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Here's what they are quoting:
On Monday, the deputy attorney general for criminal law told a Knesset committee that "extraordinary measures" have been used in questioning the suspects currently in custody.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.691924
With respect to the content itself, here is the full quote from Ya'alon:
“We think we know who the group responsible for this act is, which is why we are taking draconian measures such as arrests and administrative detentions. What we are lacking is evidence to present in court, but I believe that eventually we can bring them to justice."
My comment would be that I certainly hope they are able to gather enough evidence to try and convict the criminals guilty of this heinous attack.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Tuesday 15 December 2015 11:18 UTC
Last update:
Tuesday 15 December 2015 12:26 UTC
- See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-not-enough-evidence-convict-douma-arsonists-47834863#sthash.exYXfIQT.QHq9fK9N.dpuf
Haaretz Dec 15, 2015 12:47 PM
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.691924
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)What are your thoughts on it?
Do you think there will eventually be enough evidence?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Look at the responses to your poorly chosen mistake if a reply.
You have zero cred.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Even if they occasionally get on me for being nitpicky (which I confess I often am).
I am happy to engage you in a serious discussion if you are interested even though we have our serious disagreements.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Weren't you just suckered in by some bigoted Mondoweiss post that convinced you Jews have no historical connection to Palestine?
Hahahaha, you defended it SO strongly!
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I just think you should've posted the Ha'aretz original.
In any case, let's hope they can gather enough evidence to charge and eventually convict the people responsible for this heinous crime.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shows more concern for which article is in the OP vs the murder of a family, the severe immolation of the surviving child, and disgustin, yet predictable, Israeli justice.
Compare the reaction to the attack/murder of the Dawabsheh family vs the kidnap/murder of three Israeli colonists.
Bibi the butcher didn't wait for evidence. He just started arresting Palestinians: setting off a war that killed thousands in Gaza.
But the perps in the death of the Dawabsheh family walk.
Some might say that the Israelis are covering for their murderous colonists due to which group they beling to.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Obviously, this is a very minor concern, especially in relation to seeing justice served for what happened in this horrible case.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Tuesday 15 December 2015 11:18 UTC
Last update:
Tuesday 15 December 2015 12:26 UTC
- See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-not-enough-evidence-convict-douma-arsonists-47834863#sthash.exYXfIQT.QHq9fK9N.dpuf
Haaretz Dec 15, 2015 12:47 PM
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.691924
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The Ha'aretz article was first - the ME Eye article quotes it (and also plagiarizes the first two paragraphs).
By the way, do you know what UTC stands for?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Thus the Ha'aretz article came first. Otherwise it would not have been possible for the Middle East Eye article to quote it.
I am not sure why you are having so much trouble understanding this.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Tuesday 15 December 2015 11:18 UTC
Last update:
Tuesday 15 December 2015 12:26 UTC
- See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-not-enough-evidence-convict-douma-arsonists-47834863#sthash.exYXfIQT.QHq9fK9N.dpuf
Haaretz Dec 15, 2015 12:47 PM
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.691924
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you understand that some sources use the local time in their region as opposed to GMT or UTC?
Also, that when sources update the info in their articles they also update the date and time as well?
But, I agree - tis a minor point. I hope you can concede your error and move on to what is really important here.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)something else instead of the 2 tragedies: the murder of a family and justice unserved.
But please, show us where your values truly lie.
Know them by their works, folks.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I can certainly see how it could come across as being insensitive to what really matters here.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I try to be as upfront and honest as possible, and admit when I allow my pet peeves to get the better of me.
I think it was sloppy and lazy for the ME Eye folks to take credit for a story that came from Ha'aretz (incidentally, they don't even list a writer on their version).
That said, there is no question that the most important element of this story is the content itself. It would be an absolute travesty if the criminals are not able to be brought to justice due to lack of evidence.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Personally, I think that they will eventually gather enough evidence to successfully prosecute this case, and I think it is really critical that they make every effort to do so.
But that might be wishful thinking on my part.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)manner. If Israel took the case seriously and applied due diligence that would be one way for
reasonable people on both sides to feel no one was scapegoated.
After I read the B'tselem concerns posted yesterday about the teens treatment, I am not sure this will
end well. I don't know what Israel's authorities are thinking going down that road.
I have not read any Israeli news this morning, so I don't know if anything has changed.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Read this Jefferson23 :.........
Meir Ettinger: The face of Jewish terrorism
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,l-4738049,00.html
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Hopefully they can get him for something.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)and the state that let's them get away with.
...but let's not forget Israel's helpers tgat try and divert attention away from these heinous acts.
6chars
(3,967 posts)Five Jewish youths are still being held on vague suspicions of involvement in the lethal Duma arson in July. No charges have been leveled, and it has been revealed that during the course of their detention without trial, they have been refused basic religious rights such as lighting Hanukkah candles, been banned from seeing their lawyers or family, and several have been denied medical treatment after being beaten during arrest.
Honenu, the organization that is helping to provide legal aid for the detainees, told Arutz Sheva, that not only have the teens not been allowed to see their lawyers, but that it is unclear if they are being given proper medical attention, and the situation has dragged on for over three weeks.
The Shin Bet internal security service is holding the teens, some of whom are minors, on suspicion of being involved in the arson at Duma. No formal charges have been laid and the detainees have not been allowed to talk to their families, lawyers, or even to visit the court. “We simply don’t know what is happening to them,” said Eran Schwartz spokesperson of Honenu.
--
So is Israel too lax on these suspects? Too tough? Both?
Israeli
(4,151 posts)All depends on which side you stand on 6chars.
If you are for the ideology of a 'Greater Israel ' ie Judea and Samaria belongs to us because God says so .....then its too tough .
If you are for The State of Israel which these " Five Jewish youths " totally reject ....then its too lax.
Which are you for ??
6chars
(3,967 posts)the perpetrators should be brought to justice. I'm not shedding any tears for them. Shouldn't go past legal treatment, though.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)....of that I have no doubt now ......
“Unfortunately, since carrying out the arrests, the Shin Bet has recognized a proactive and ongoing effort whose goal is to slander the agency and its workers, and disrupt our operational activities,” the security service said Thursday.
“This attempt deserves all manner of condemnation and will not weaken the hands of the Shin Bet going forward in its actions, as it fights for the citizens of Israel under our national values,” the Shin Bet said.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/in-rare-move-shin-bet-lashes-out-at-jewish-terror-groups/
Israeli
(4,151 posts)....expect more news soon .
Meanwhile .....
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4742655,00.html
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)a reason to bring doubt for the jury? I sure as hell hope not. If they did what is
printed here, they went outside the laws of Israel..that never helps anyone in
the end.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Israeli
(4,151 posts)Indictments will be issued soon against those responsible for the killing of three members of the Dawabsha family in the July torching of their home in Duma, Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon (Likud) said Saturday night in an interview with Channel 2.
Unfortunately, he said, “Jewish terrorists” are responsible.
A Judea and Samaria police spokesman said that indictments could be issued as early as this week.
Ya’alon spoke with Channel 2 in the aftermath of two controversial issues that grabbed headlines over the past week – the publication of a video dubbed “the wedding of hate” that showed Jewish extremists dancing to a song calling for more Palestinians to be killed and stabbing a photograph of the slain toddler, Ali Dawabsha; and claims by attorneys for the Duma suspects that the Shin Bet is torturing them.
The wedding video was shown to cabinet ministers and settler leaders, because a number of them did not believe Jews could be behind the Duma murders.
The impact of the video domestically to help “clean house” from such extremism is worth the price Israel may pay for it in the international arena, Ya’alon said.
Continued @
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Duma-killers-will-be-charged-soon-says-defense-minister-438504
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Silence, for the most part by the pro-bantustan crowd.
What a fucking disgrace, the justice system in Israel has fallen into the sea.
6chars
(3,967 posts)It is not at all clear that the Jewish extremists were treated as they claim. I hope they were not tortured, but assuming they weren't, I am glad Israel is doing everything it can to go after the perpetrators of terrorism, without regard to whether they are Jewish or Arab. In fact, what we saw on this site was a lot of heated criticism of Israel for not having a conviction of the Jewish extremists yet, as proof of how flawed Israeli justice is. Israel will be demonized by some people no matter what they do.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)citizens. I already know how a large percent look the other way when Palestinians
are the target.
6chars
(3,967 posts)maybe it's time for a u.n. resolution. or hrw or amnesty to chime in.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)independent investigations more than any other country...I'd love to see it.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)levels. That is fucked up to use torture, if accurate.
snip* A break in the case came three weeks ago, when Shin Bet began to use what they termed extraordinary measures during interrogations, first with A. At the beginning, the minor admitted his involvement in other incidents, but not the Duma firebombing. Under torture, he admitted they planned the event, but he had fallen asleep and did not arrive to the location in time. After his incrimination, special interrogation tactics were used on Ben-Uliel, who admitted to the crime and recounted the incident.
Some details related to other offenses allegedly committed by the accused will remain under a gag order.
The Shin Bet did not address the nature of the investigation, but in a briefing on Sunday morning said that a part of The Revolt network, which aims to topple the government, became stronger at the end of 2013. The organization's documents, which were found but have not yet been published, indicate that its intent is to name a king, reconstruct the Temple, eliminate idolatry, expel Gentiles and install religious coercion in the public domain.
Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked told journalists at the beginning of Sunday's cabinet meeting that she hopes the suspects behind the Duma attack will receive a fair and just trial. Shaked refused to respond when asked whether she trusts the court or if she believes the suspects will receive a fair trial.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.695138
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Prosecutors face several hurdles in the upcoming trial of Amiram Ben-Uliel and the minor A.: First of all, the admissibility of confessions obtained under torture.
Chaim Levinson Jan 04, 2016
Indictments against the two suspects in the Duma arson and murder case were filed on Sunday, firing the opening shot in what is likely to be a protracted and difficult legal battle.
The first hurdle facing the prosecutors will the admissibility of confessions obtained under physical duress. Prosecutors will have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the confession was a true one, considering that courts have dismissed such confessions in cases far less serious than the present one.
In general, judges prefer to rule on a case-by-case basis when it comes to torture. In 2011, the head of the Palestinian terror unit that carried out the Park Hotel attack appealed his conviction, with his attorney saying that evidence obtained under torture isn't admissible. The judge ruled that the question of admissibility "merits further consideration" but upheld the conviction based on other evidence.
In the present case, the Shin Bet and the police claim that prime suspect Amiram Ben-Uliel's confession and reenactment were laden with unpublished details only the perpetrator could have known. That is in addition to the confession made by the second suspect, A., which incriminated Ben-Uliel.
However, A.'s confession was also obtained with torture. At the beginning, the minor admitted his involvement in other incidents, but not the Duma firebombing. Under torture, he admitted that he and Ben-Uliel planned the event, but he had fallen asleep and did not arrive to the location in time.
On the face of it, Ben-Uliel's confession is supposed to incriminate A. too. If the confessions don't correspond in their details, it will support the argument that the confessions were false.
Another hurdle facing prosecutors is Uliel's claim that he acted alone. The Shin Bet were convinced that the crime was carried out by a unit and no previous Jewish terror attack, known as 'price tag' attacks, has been carried out by a sole attacker.
Ben-Uliel likely to claim In court that the fact that he didn't reveal any other names proves that he wasn't there - and that he has no idea who was really behind the attack.
Another hurdle is the matter of the vehicle used by the alleged assailants. G., an 18-year-old from the Baladim outpost, was arrested on suspicion of providing the car used by the attackers. Another 30-year-old man was arrested for allegedly selling the vehicle to G., but not officially transferring ownership of the vehicle in order to cover its tracks.
If these details are true, why did Ben-Uliel say in his confession that he walked to the Palestinian village, instead of using a vehicle?
The witness list includes 132 witnesses for the prosecution, including 44 Shin Bet investigators and dozens of police officers as well as the victims. Bringing all the Shin Bet officials to testify alone will take a long time.
Ben-Uliel has no incentive to reach a plea deal, since he will serve dozens of years in jail in any case. The trial will take place behind closed doors, both because A., the second suspect, is a minor, and because the Shin Bet prefers to keep as many details about its investigation as possible under wraps.
Ben-Uliel's attorney, Itamar Ben-Gvir, said that "the indictment isn't the end of the affair, but the opening of Pandora's Box by the Shin Bet. I suggest the Shin Bet doesn't celebrate too soon.
"The Bus 300 affair, the Amos Barnes case and even the Bar Noar case prove that in certain incidents the system does everything it can to show it has solved a crime, even at the price of incriminating innocent parties."
A.'s attorney, Adi Keidar, said: "For 40 days we've been hearing serious akkegations that the minor carried out the murder, and today it was shown that he has nothing to do with the murder itself.
"This claim was at the basis of the ludicrous approval to torture my client illegally, which led to his confession on other matters unrelated to the murder. The confession was forced out of him and we have no way of knowing whether he is linked to them.
Source : http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.695245
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Ben-Uliel, 21, admitted his crime to Shin Bet investigators and re-enacted parts of it on December 19, the agency said. That information, however, was kept from the public under a gag order until Sunday when the indictments were filed.
He was a member in an organization called Givonim, a subset of the Hilltop Youth, a group of extremist Jewish activists. The Givonim seek to accomplish their goal of anointing a king over Israel by carrying out a violent coup against the government, and murdering or expelling from Israel all non-Jews, the Shin Bet said in a statement following the indictment of Ben-Uliel and his accomplice on Sunday.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/stood-up-by-partner-amiram-ben-uliel-firebombed-duma-home-alone/
almost sounds as if Givonim anointed a martyr to take the blame alone
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Telem Yahav
Published: 01.04.16, 09:22 / Israel News
A document released publicly for the first time on Monday suggested that the main suspect in the murderous arson fire in Duma may not have acted alone, and that a group of settlers had been spotted leaving Duma shortly after the fire.
About ten minutes after IDF troops arrived at the village, lookouts spotted settlers walking away from the northern part of Duma to a nearby outpost of Adei Ad. Around an hour later, a military security coordinator reported seeing settlers getting out of a car in another outpost in the area, who began to walk towards the adjacent Palestinian village of Sinjil. The same security coordinator reported his belief that the settlers could have been involved in the incident.
The new details emerged in a new document submitted to the Supreme Court in the context of a petition by the Yesh Din human rights group demanding that Adei Ad be evacuated. The NGO has argued that the outpost is illegal and that it serves as a base for anti-Palestinian violence.
The records raise the question of whether it may have been possible to locate the perpetrators of the attack minutes after it occurred.
The report showed that IDF troops arrived 11 minutes after the fire started, encountering Palestinian rescue services.
It was only about ten minutes after IDF forces arrived that settlers were seen walking from Duma to Adei Ad, according to the document.
The document in question was under a gag order for months, as the state claimed that it would damage the investigation and that it was unreliable.
The indictment of the Duma suspects stated that the actual arson attack was perpetrated by Amiram Ben-Uliel alone, and that "fire began to rage and he ran away." However, the document clearly indicated that observations caught view of "settlers." This raises the question of whether the document is even reliable or whether there other perpetrators who have not yet been caught.
In addition, the indictment didn't specify where the attacker fled and where he stayed in the hours following the murder.
Yesh Din Executive Director Neta Patrick said that "the information exposed raises the suspicion that the outlaws received shelter at the illegal outpost of Adei Ad, and strengthens the claim that it is a focus point for criminal activity. Anyone who values the rule of law should demand that Adei Ad be cleared immediately, and that it not be retrospectively legitimized, as the state is shamefully choosing to do."
Source : http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4748202,00.html
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)sadly, so not surprising
