Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumNetanyahu feels complete impunity because all US politicians need ‘support of Jewish community’
Let me start by saying something personal. For almost 40 years I was a member of the Israeli foreign service and not only my job but my passion was to build support for the state of Israel in every single shape or form, whether by convincing journalists, politicians trying to influence people how to vote at the United Nations. That was what I did.
Today I am coming here to say that without foreign intervention, without pressure on Israel, nothing will move. It certainly is not easy for me to have made that change. And that change is necessary, it has been necessary to me. I love the country, I am Zionist, but I do not approve of the policies. So there is a difference between supporting Israel as a country and objecting to its policies. And its in the spirit that I would like to say what I think should be done.
And what I think should be done is to try to get through the bubble in which the Israelis live. It is not only Netanyahu or [Naftali] Bennett or [Uri] Ariel who are the drivers. For that you need the public. And I would say the public has swayed very much to the right. It is living in a kind of bubble where everything is possible. The prime minister is doing anything he can conceive or think because he thinks that this is being done with impunity. He has managed to convince the Israelis, not only that we do not have a partner but that the Arabs have always hated us, they always hate us Theres no way in normal civility to ever have any kind of agreement with the Palestinians.
So what I think has to be done is a combination of things to reach the Israeli public. I do not think we can change the mind of Netanyahu. He is immune to criticism, he has brought relations with the United States to the point that we know, the lowest point. He objects from time to time to what the foreign minister of Sweden says, but he is really doing what he wishes because he thinks that nobody is going to punish him, because he thinks for instance that in America at the end of the day any politician will need the support of the Jewish community, so there is no real pressure of America on Israel.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This is his opening paragraph regarding the recent Ha'aretz conference:
On my way into the New Israel Fund Haaretz conference on the future of Israel Sunday morning I felt I had made a mistake in coming. The long security line was filled with American and Israeli Jews, some talking Hebrew, and I felt angry and duped that anyone would even undertake a discussion of this huge political question with a Jim Crow crowd. That American Jews could tell themselves that it was sufficient to gather Jews to the issue was (as always) infuriating. It would be like negotiating the future of the American South with a conference of white people. And at the same time, the monocultural crowd gave me confidence about my progressive communitys inevitability. If Jews must maintain a majority even in these conversations well, Zionism really is self-defeating. I texted a friend, I hate Zionism.
He felt "angry and duped" and felt it was a mistake to attend the conference because the line of people was filled with American and Israeli Jews - some of them were even speaking Hebrew.
I once again would strongly encourage you to stop posting garbage from Mondoweiss and start focusing on legitimate news and opinion sites if you want to engage in serious conversation here.
King_David
(14,851 posts)A bigoted petty vanity site that has recently supported Anne Coulter and recently supported Donald Trump.
All the while continually bashing and trashing both Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton.
Not surprisingly this trash , bigoted, hateful site is only posted here by one particular poster , and on a Democratic Party supporting website that would never support the bigotry against American Jews as displayed there on that site.
As an American Jew I think anyone posting this vile site should be considered complicit.
?height=225&width=225
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Wikipedia needs citations for such claims, you ought to at least have similar minimal standards.
Also, if the Bernie sticker is supposed to be your sig, might want to put it in the sig line Nice to see we have something we agree on though! I'd certainly welcome seeing your input in GD . C'mon over Dave, it's where all the good arguing is these days! You know ain't shit gonna change in I/P, it's just you same guys yelling the same things at each other. Come into the light, and yell different things at different people!
King_David
(14,851 posts)Yes I'm tempted... But you know me ... I'm thin skinned ... Not like Scootalo... And I need less fighting not more... But yep I'll scout it out....
shira
(30,109 posts)He's made that clear many times, actually.
"Emily and I go out on West End Avenue, and a blonde mother goes by with two kids. I hear her talking Hebrew and I feel anger toward her. "
"she has an appointment with the legislative assistant to her congressman. His name sounds Jewish. I feel anger at him, and give her suggestions of what to say to the guy."
"A lot is going through my head. At the meeting, Jane said that one problem with our issue is that, Like it or not, its going to draw anti-Semites. They show up at lectures and talks. Shes right. Ive met anti-Semites cloaked in their righteous criticism. I saw anti-Jewish hatred in Gaza, where they paint dustbins with the Star of David. Ive felt that hatred of Israel myself. When you see the monstrosities of Gaza, you cant help but feel hatred."
http://sadredearth.com/the-malice-of-mondoweiss/
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This is a conference in New York City, about Israel, sponsored by an Israeli newspaper.
And he begins welling up with anger as he hears people there speaking in Hebrew and notices that there are so many Jews present.
This is a very sick and disturbed individual.
shira
(30,109 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)What aren't you offended at?
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)like Arutz Sheva, and I will keep on posting from left wing progressive sites.
I'm not sorry it offends you, but perhaps you might want to consider that this is a Democratic/Progressive site.
shira
(30,109 posts)That's not democratic or progressive.
And rather than acknowledge Phil Weiss' obvious hatred, you deflect and keep attacking so you can continue posting filth from that garbage dump of a website.
You want to deny or ignore the fact that what Phil Weiss wrote in the OP above is hateful antisemitic filth?
Who the hell would keep posting shit like that - about being upset by the presence of Jews, or being angry at hearing hebrew?
Of course you won't answer - you'll deflect again, attack with more bullshit - and keep posting from Mondoweiss --- only to then claim that's progressive & liberal.
Hell, you'll probably alert on this post and get it hidden. That's how it's worked in this forum before. It's fucking unreal and shameful that a post pointing out bigotry gets hidden and is portrayed as an attack.
***If this post gets alerted on, I want the jury to explain why dogshit articles like the Jew-hating ones from Mondoweiss are allowed here while advocating against such filth deserves a hide in a liberal forum. Riddle me that one please***
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)and those that want to hide it from others.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Criticism of Israel isn't anti-semitism or jew-hating; no matter how hard you fantasize it to be so.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jews lie and cheat and don't recognize it as such.....Star of David should be a symbol of contempt from now on....Jews should acknowledge their role in bringing about the Holocaust.
So you agree with Weiss on that?
Be clear since it's all the "truth" and you post Weiss here constantly.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)play the victim.
What you poorly do, to attempt to stifle criticism of the apartheid state, is both dubious and sophomoric at best.
A child could see through your ruse.
shira
(30,109 posts)What's the mattter?
Not up to defending Weiss? Not that anyone can defend that garbage.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Besides their ability to shovel mountains of fabrications the dubious have a penchant for always playing the victim in order to gain sympathy while victimizing others.
shira
(30,109 posts)sabbat hunter
(6,835 posts)Antisemitism is not progressive or Democratic. But, yet you choose to continually post articles from mondoweiss, which is a anti-Semite site.
And since you STILL have not answered this question, I will pose it again. Which members (name names please) do you feel would never vote for the Democratic party candidates?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)realizing that criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitism, but they do go on some.
Laud, yes.
sabbat hunter
(6,835 posts)goes FAR beyond that. Weiss is an antisemite.
And please answer my question from my previous post. You made the assertion, and I for one would love to hear the answer.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)But please complain on.
sabbat hunter
(6,835 posts)who are the people here on DU that you believe would never vote for a Democratic party candidate?
King_David
(14,851 posts)When Mondoweiss trashes Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders but praises Anne Coulter and Donald Trump.
In that poster's bizarro world it believes that Democratic Party principles are okay with that ? On that posters view homophobia is acceptable to the Democratic Party? Anti American Jewish sentiment is ok with the Democratic Party despite the fact we overwhelmingly support the Democratic Party?
I think that poster is on the wrong forum here on DU posting hate sites on a daily basis.....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)what's interesting is what you quote isn't in the article you link to, is that because the paragraph following it totally disproves what you're trying to claim? Below your comment is the entire thing
52. Time for an update.....Phil Weiss can't stand Jews, again ---- Dec 16, 2015
On my way into the New Israel Fund Haaretz conference on the future of Israel Sunday morning I felt I had made a mistake in coming. The long security line was filled with American and Israeli Jews, some talking Hebrew, and I felt angry and duped that anyone would even undertake a discussion of this huge political question with a Jim Crow crowd. That American Jews could tell themselves that it was sufficient to gather Jews to the issue was (as always) infuriating. It would be like negotiating the future of the American South with a conference of white people. And at the same time, the monocultural crowd gave me confidence about my progressive communitys inevitability. If Jews must maintain a majority even in these conversations well, Zionism really is self-defeating. I texted a friend, I hate Zionism.
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/netanyahu-politicians-community
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=121991
By the end of the day I felt much different. There was a distinct minority of Palestinian voices at the conference, but they were the most powerful voices. They were not token, they had a platform; they came on strong in the afternoon, and audiences listened to them rapt. Ayman Odeh the member of the Israeli Knesset who is head of the Joint List was saluted like a rock star at the end of his speech calling for a shared future of equal rights. (Watch the crowd leap to its feet at 4:50 below)
- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/palestinians-afternoon-conference#sthash.ZWb4CiHM.dpuf
King_David
(14,851 posts)One posts his crap and the other defends it...
Yet it's the Jewish posters here that are offended and the targets of the hate ....and not the 2 posters that are going to bat for the Mondoweiss.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)ones that have a decided 'no true Scotsman' ring to them, fascinating really
King_David
(14,851 posts)My assumptions are correct...
Or go ahead and correct them please.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)I suspect you're using it incorrectly as I've seen you use it before in multiple different contexts.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)I've been here long enough to remember people talking about their backgrounds .
And I am young enough to have a super fantastic memory.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)If you are saying I am wrong , well correct the record and I will take your word for it.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Amateur hasbarist heads explode.
shira
(30,109 posts)You think Phil Weiss hit it out of the park by being angry and upset when around Jews, hearing hebrew, etc?
Seriously?
Because that's fucked up.
King_David
(14,851 posts)and there's 2 posters here defending this hateful crap targeting us American Jews.
Can you imagine any other group being targeted by hate and having such a thing posted and also defended. And on a Democratic Party supporting website too......(The party that has a Jewish American candidate)
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Poor them.
shira
(30,109 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)And another one who posted it and is all over the place thinking bigotry against Jews is funny....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=122034
shira
(30,109 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)As long as the bigotry is not directed to a person themselves and some other group , hey it's okay it seems.
The same kind of bullying I have seen for years from some straight people who try and tell us Gays that something is not homophobic.
All this taking place on DU , a Democratic Party supporting site.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)from team hasbara.
There is one poster in I/P that has regularly been suspended over the years for over the top bigotry and hatred of others...especially Palestinians.
There is one other who was suspended at least once for the same conduct.
But even after that they keep coming back with the same discredited crap: hoping, I guess, that somebody will believe their sorry song and dance this time.
Now I hope those two players can find a way to grow up and stop with their failed rhetoric.
Now, I can at least say that the two posters that you have mentioned AFAIK have never been suspended. One is even a trusted member here.
King_David
(14,851 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Last edited Thu Dec 17, 2015, 05:18 PM - Edit history (1)
criticize Israel all the time for its human rights disaster. It must also chap your backside that they are right.
And that's your problem. You see this criticism as hate.
And that's fucked up.
shira
(30,109 posts).....can legitimately make progressives angry and upset?
Or will you deflect again? Ignore it?
Pretend there isn't anything wrong with Weiss' obvious hatred of anything Jewish?
So you can post more of the same later.
Response to shira (Reply #29)
R. Daneel Olivaw This message was self-deleted by its author.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)he was talking about an I/P conference, ya know the one Ha'aretz removed the Israeli flag for here is the entire thing
By the end of the day I felt much different. There was a distinct minority of Palestinian voices at the conference, but they were the most powerful voices. They were not token, they had a platform; they came on strong in the afternoon, and audiences listened to them rapt. Ayman Odeh the member of the Israeli Knesset who is head of the Joint List was saluted like a rock star at the end of his speech calling for a shared future of equal rights. (Watch the crowd leap to its feet at 4:50 below)
- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/palestinians-afternoon-conference#sthash.ZWb4CiHM.dpuf
shira
(30,109 posts)That doesn't take away from the fact he was disgusted by the mere presence of Jews there speaking hebrew.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as it turned out it was n't that way
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)what has already been posted
shira
(30,109 posts)The blog is run by a liberal native American.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)that could almost be called spamming
82. Nope. And that filth is a screenshot from Mondoweiss demonstrating their hatred. n/t
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=122192
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Still waiting.
It's not there, and that's why I posted a link to a screen shot of that post.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)I pointed to another blog post of his (from 2009 that he hid due to its nastiness) which stated the same damned thing, but this time WRT Jews in NYC speaking hebrew. He couldn't stand hearing hebrew in either place.
Showing once again Weiss' bigotry.
You know, the same old bigotry from Mondoweiss about being fed up with all things Jewish.
That kinda hate.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Is Sand on your bad Jews list too along with Weiss, Gideon Levy, Amira Hass, Uri Avnery, Ilan Pappe, Avi Schlaim..........
shira
(30,109 posts)You tried to defend Weiss, but there's an ongoing history of hatred at MW. Good luck trying to defend all that.
I give you credit, though. You're at least trying - your fellow fans of Mondoweiss here won't even attempt to defend Phil Weiss and his sewer of a hate site.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)And it's racist bigoted first class antisemitic crap from the pen of the POS bigot Weiss.
King_David
(14,851 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)It's always made light of, ignored, denied. Whenever it's brought up, they never miss an opportunity to denigrate Jews even more - with the insinuation being that we're nasty for pulling out that "card". That Jews don't know what anti-Semitism really is. They know better.
Tells you all you need to know about the anti-Zionist movement.
King_David
(14,851 posts)I was offended ...
As a Jew I know hate when I see it directed at myself...
Tell us , what makes you an arbiter in this situation? What gives you the credentials to brush off hate against American Jews or even to tell that group what is or is not hate.
When straight people tell me that somethings not homophobic when I think it is I tell them to F--- off.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)a point of view as you do.
Right?
You have an opinion. Nothing more.
Deal with others.
Perhaps it has nothing to do with your ethnicity. Perhaps people just don't like you?
You tend to give off a negative vibe. Perhaps that's it?
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)On Fri Dec 18, 2015, 06:22 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
I guess that azurnoir has as much right to share
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=122071
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
There is nothing worse than someone making light of bigotry, even the personal attack within.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Dec 18, 2015, 06:41 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: There was not so much wrong with the post as there was with the direction it was going. We did not need to go there.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see nothing offensive. The alert is ridiculous.
King_David
(14,851 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)but I believe that my comments still stand.
I believe that juror #7 sums it up.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see nothing offensive. The alert is ridiculous.
But I guess that I should wish that Troll a very special Christmas wish.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It's good to see that there are some Israelis who are genuinely concerned about Netanyahu and his policies. Colette Avital is one of the good guys.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's still Phil Weiss' thoughts, but I replace Jews with Muslims, Israel and Zionism with Palestine, etc. Let's see how interesting this is to you...
What do you think now?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Nevertheless, the passage you're referring to is trying to express disappointment about seeing that support for Israel goes along ethnic lines, and not ethical ones. It's not an expression of racism.
shira
(30,109 posts)Do you get angry & upset when you're surrounded by Muslims, since they're all Jim Crow racists?
Perhaps you're bothered when you hear or see Muslim sounding names. And you're fed up with all things Muslim, asking yourself frequently if there is a difference between Muslims & Nazis.
Maybe you think Muslims lie and cheat and don't recognize it as such. That Muslims need to understand their role in bringing on the Iraq, Syrian, and Afghanistan invasions. And that the crescent moon should be an object of contempt from now on.
That's MW in a nutshell - but against Jews. The degenerates at Mondoweiss support and defend Hamas "resistance" when they target and kill Jewish people deliberately - which is so obviously neo-Nazi, it needs no explanation. No different than the Holocaust denying Gilad Atzmon's understanding why folks would want to torch syngagogues. Now imagine someone on this board attempting to defend racists who support torching Mosques and murdering innocent Muslims. See what I mean? Never in a million years would you give the benefit of the doubt to someone spewing that filth on this board.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)You can't stop people from posting MW articles in this forum without tangible proof that MW is anti-Semitic. I like MW myself because they are good at serious introspection and pick up things I wouldn't know of otherwise. I'm not posting OP's from MW, but that's mainly because I prefer to post from news sites.
I've noticed there is a certain amount of animosity towards the poster of this OP. I hope he/she doesn't crack, because then I would have to post OP's from MW.
King_David
(14,851 posts)If however a poster has inadvertently found him or herself in a Democratic Party supporting website even though the poster carries extreme right wing views , bullies posters only because of their sexual orientation and supports a right wing social agenda ..... There would be animosity against such a poster.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)values expressed on DU.
shira
(30,109 posts)....for you to conclude that those opinions are not only racist, but that the ones expressing those opinions are racists themselves.
What's your criteria? Maybe rattle off 3-5 things...
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)That should be easy to understand, but thanks to human ingenuity it isn't. There are many ways to disguise anti-Semitism as something else.
I don't think it's possible to define criteria for anti-Semitism from what it looks like, because that's not how anti-Semitism should be defined IMHO. For me it's all about intent - if you don't like Jews and express that, even indirectly, then you're an anti-Semite expressing anti-Semitic views.
But the crux is that you have to be an actual anti-Semite to be an anti-Semite. If you have no feelings of antipathy towards Jews, you're not an anti-Semite.
shira
(30,109 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)posters being anti-semites, being republicans, and being homophobes without any proof.
But then the same posters, that make these false accusations, go on to post OPs that applaud right wing sources: like those who hate the LGBTQ community...or even Shock Jocks that call for Palestinian deaths.
Perhaps they are the real bigots here and should be outed for it?
On edit: probably a goog idea to delete that post.
Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #70)
King_David This message was self-deleted by its author.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 19, 2015, 11:30 AM - Edit history (1)
You won't even try to defend their hate - and that's obvious to anyone paying attention here as you won't touch what they have written about Jews with a 10-foot pole.
If Mondoweiss were to direct that very same vitriol at Muslims, it would take you less than a second to conclude the degenerates at MW are fascist Islamophobic racists.
Full stop.
Why the double-standard when it comes to racism?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts).....that you don't even want to discuss the possibility that anything coming from MW is anti-Semitic.
You just keep attacking and posting their vile shit, trying to deflect from the fact that a lot of their content is vile.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Abd I'll keep on posting the truth.
RDO
BDS
shira
(30,109 posts)It's so bad you don't even attempt to defend the garbage you post from that vile rat's nest.
What's next? Posting "truth" from Rense, IfAmericansKnew, and Stormfront....
Only to then post more from those sites while pretending nothing's wrong?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)you're going to ruin the thread.
saltpoint
(50,986 posts)-- and far too involved with -- U.S. political currents.
(Netanyahu) broke with Obama, first in a private phone call Jan. 12, and then in his public acceptance of an offer by GOP House Speaker John Boehner to address Congress on March 3 and, in effect, lobby against the deal.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-netanyahu-broke-publicly-with-obama-over-iran/2015/02/19/4ea794f6-b885-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html
While Netanyahu's defiance is not surprising, given the fetid whiff of collusion with Mitt Romney during the 2012 presidential campaign, it has not been successful in significantly changing the terms of the Iran accord. And Netanyahu world-wide remains one of the least popular political figures in modern history.
And properly so.