Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPalestine Supports Morocco’s Sovereignty Over Western Sahara
IOW, Palestine supports Morocco's occupation and settlement of W.Sahara. Turns out that besides the occupation, 100's of thousands of Moroccan settlers haved moved there under Army protection.
Palestine supports that, and Sweden does too.
Gotta love the logic of neo-fascists, rightwing totalitarians, and regressive Leftists.
We struggle against the Israeli occupation since 1948 and Morocco struggles for the achievement of its territorial integrity, he added.
The Palestinian position with regards to the Sahara comes as a rebuttal to the attempts made by Algeria and the Polisario in recent years to equate the question of Palestine with the dispute over Western Sahara.
The parallel that Algeria and the Polisario sought to establish between the two questions gained traction after Sweden recognized the Palestinian state in October 2014. The Swedish recognition of the Palestinian state gave the Polisario hope that Stockholm would recognize the self-proclaimed Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic (SADR).
However, the Swedish government made it clear last October that there is no parallel between the recognition of Palestine and Western Sahara. As both the Swedish Prime Minister and the Minister for Foreign Affairs have both previously stated, there are no parallels between the recognition of Palestine and Western Sahara, the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs told Morocco World News last October.
http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2016/01/177955/palestine-supports-moroccos-sovereignty-over-western-sahara/
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)That's sort of harsh, no?
shira
(30,109 posts)It's not about occupation, settlements, or human rights....and it never has been.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Sounds like you don't want Israel to take responsibility for its actions.
King_David
(14,851 posts)It's about the hypocrisy of Sweden and the chutzpah it has to moralize against Israel and the hate it holds towards Israel for obvious reasons.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I mean it just has that air about any criticism (hypocritical or otherwise) of Israel is translated as hate of Israel to all the pro-Israeli crowd. It doesn't validate the argument at all.
King_David
(14,851 posts)We not talking about the USA here.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Just pointing out the abject hypocrisy of not only the Palestinians but their supporters who ignore all the other occupations going on in the world. Could be a full time job considering the reality.
shira
(30,109 posts)Israel has offered the Palestinians their own state free of occupation and settlements with Jerusalem as capital.
Did the PA fuck up for rejecting those offers in 2000 and 2008?
Sounds like you don't want the PA to take responsibility for its actions.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I'm actually pretty well-versed on the conflict.
shira
(30,109 posts)....tend to be totally against the peace offers Israel made in 2000 and 2008 that would have given the Palestinians their own state free of occupation and settlements.
So it turns out these critics are the ones who prefer that the conflict continue.
Of course they blame Israel because that's the game they play.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: Wikipedia
Occupied by Spain in the late 19th century, the Western Sahara has been on the United Nations list of non-self-governing territories since 1963 after a Moroccan demand. It is the most populous territory on that list, and by far the largest in area. In 1965, the UN General Assembly adopted its first resolution on Western Sahara, asking Spain to decolonise the territory. One year later, a new resolution was passed by the General Assembly requesting that a referendum be held by Spain on self-determination.
In 1975, Spain relinquished the administrative control of the territory to a joint administration by Morocco (which had formally claimed the territory since 1957) and Mauritania. A war erupted between those countries and the Sahrawi national liberation movement, the Polisario Front, which proclaimed the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (SADR) with a government-in-exile in Tindouf, Algeria. Mauritania withdrew in 1979, and Morocco eventually secured de facto control of most of the territory, including all the major cities and natural resources.
Since a United Nations-sponsored ceasefire agreement in 1991, two thirds of the territory (including most of the Atlantic coastline) has been under de facto control by Morocco and the remainder by the SADR, strongly backed by Algeria. Internationally, countries such as the United States and Russia have taken a generally ambiguous and neutral position on each side's claims, and have pressed both parties to agree on a peaceful resolution. Both Morocco and Polisario have sought to boost their claims by accumulating formal recognition, essentially from African, Asian, and Latin American states in the developing world. The Polisario Front has won formal recognition for SADR from 37 states, and was extended membership in the African Union. Morocco has won recognition or support for its position from several African governments and from most of the Arab League. In both instances, recognitions have, over the past two decades, been extended and withdrawn according to changing international trends. As of 2006, no other member state of the United Nations has recognized Moroccan sovereignty over Western Sahara.
Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I think it's quite shameful that Sweden, a country that prides itself on its human rights record at home and abroad should turn its back on Western Sahara. Sweden has already recognized Palestine, which was long overdue and something that have had massive public support for a long time. Sweden has not made the morally right choice with Western Sahara, which can only be explained by Sweden giving in to undue pressure. We all know (at least I do) that Morocco has actively lobbied and bribed countries in the EU to make them see things the Moroccan way. Morocco is planning to give away lucrative fishing rights off he coast in Western Sahara to those EU countries that recognize Moroccan sovereignty over Western Sahara. I think it's absolutely pitiful that Sweden is prepared to sell its moral integrity for a few Euros. Are there any other cases of Swedish moral relativism on the international arena that we should know about?
As for the Palestinians, I can't really blame them for choosing the side that's morally wrong. They simply can't afford to have a conscience - they need all the aid they can get, and they'll agree to anything to get it. That's a little bit sad, because the Palestinians in some ways represent the struggles of oppressed peoples everywhere, but apparently not in Western Sahara.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)6chars
(3,967 posts)What a perfect summary of a common viewpoint.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Agreeing to anything that aid donors demand enables the PA to survive one more day, even if it means turning their backs on a fellow oppressed people. It's of course a slippery slope, but it's not the first time in history that high ideals have been sold for money.
shira
(30,109 posts)And of course there's no blaming the Palestinians ever for anything - meaning the PA/Hamas who you see as victims despite their brutal oppression of Palestinians.
It's not that the PA or Hamas doesn't have a conscience, they support Sudan's Bashir among other vile cretins, while oppressing their own women, gays, christians, and children.
Let's not blame them for that either, because to do so might explain how difficult the situation is for Israel to solve all by itself. It's also apparently better to support the fascists in Hamas and the PA over a liberal democracy like Israel because it's important to oppose the West, the USA, etc... in order to bring nice totalitarian values everywhere.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)do you even know who Polisario Front is? moreover haven't yoou repeatedly told us that a Palestinian state would simply be "another failed Arab state"? yet here you are seeming to support this one, or is this just another smear attempt?
Communication Minister and government spokesman Mustapha Khalfi told a press conference in the capital Rabat, We are heading towards a boycott of Swedish companies according to the principle of reciprocity after similar campaigns to boycott Moroccan companies.
This was Moroccos response to what the minister described as attempts to recognise the alleged republic without revealing the details of the recognition and when it would take place.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/europe/21409-morocco-to-boycott-swedish-companies-over-support-for-polisario-front
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 24, 2016, 04:00 AM - Edit history (1)
Sweden-Morocco: Stockholm pulls back from recognizing SADRSource: North Africa Post, January 15, 2016
The Swedish government, which examined the possibility of recognizing SADR, gave up the idea, said Thursday the SVT public television.
Sweden will not recognize the Western Sahara, wrote the TV on its website, adding that according to information it gleaned, the Foreign Minister Margot Wallström will make public this decision shortly.
This diplomatic victory for Rabat heralds more serene relationships between the two countries which turned sour last year after the Swedish Parliament announced its intention to recognize the SADR.
Read more: http://northafricapost.com/10527-sweden-morocco-stockholm-pulls-back-from-recognizing-sadr.html
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and unfortunately the on going smear campaign can seem to add a feather to it's cap
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)As for the perceived win for the "pro-Israel" side, at least we can be quite sure that Margot Wallstrom wasn't bribed to take a pro-Palestinian stance, and I still think the Swedish position on Palestine is more or less the right one.
shira
(30,109 posts)Irrational hate is all it takes.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It's the occupation of the Palestinian territories that is the main cause for all of Sweden's criticism of Israel. People in Sweden have no problem with Israel per se, and Israeli exports to Sweden were valued at $182.5 million in 2014 (http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_israel_exports.html) .
shira
(30,109 posts)Where were the Swedes then, when the PA rejected an offer for their own state with Jerusalem as capital, no occupation, no settlements?
Apologists for PA rejection obviously do NOT criticize Israel due to occupation.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)All proposals from the Israeli side insist on keeping illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and retaining control of the borders on top of that, which isn't even close to an end to occupation.
If you know of any such proposal, let me know...
shira
(30,109 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I have presented a strong opinion about Western Sahara and what I think about the (new) Swedish stance on the subject. I've been aware of and sympathetical to the plight of Western Sahara since I was a little newt in the 70's.
What do you think about Western Sahara? Independence or no? Or something in between?
shira
(30,109 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)However, I do have a lot to say about these swaps and why they won't work. I'll be back.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)how'd you work that out?
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Regardless, the PA accepts them.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)are totalitarian
shira
(30,109 posts)- An agreement on the borders of the two states, based on 4 June 1967 lines with equivalent land swaps as may be agreed between the parties. The EU will recognize changes to the pre-1967 borders, including with regard to Jerusalem, only when agreed by the parties.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Jerusalem with settlement blocs, so no go there
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)PA is for land swaps while you're against...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Abbas has said and done quite a bit since then
shira
(30,109 posts)Does that count as something recent that he said? He's responsible for that, right?
So what's the point of peace talks if the goal isn't peace?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Every single Israeli settlement is explicitly built in places that would make a Palestinian state less viable. They all command important geographical features, control resources or just simply hem in Palestinian settlements. If the Palestinians would have been allowed to build new communities in the last 50 years, they would have been where some of the settlements are now.
I have looked very carefully at the map of the West Bank, and there isn't a single settlement that could remain without negative consequences for a Palestinian state. Besides, wouldn't a swap be better if the area was at least of equal value and of use for Palestine? For example, in East Jerusalem the settlements have formed a ring around the Arab neighbourhoods so they can't expand. How would a swap with some worthless land in the Negev alleviate that problem? Land in East Jerusalem could only be swapped with land in Western Jerusalem to make a Palestinian capital there viable. It's the same problem with every square inch that Israel wants to keep in the West Bank - there's no way to alleviate the problems caused by the swap with worthless land "somewhere else".
Israel caused the problem with the settlements, and frankly, I don't think the settlement project can be undone. There hasn't even been any serious attempts to formulate a fair swaps, governmental or otherwise. Israel has been advised since the start that the settlements were a good idea, but nobody listened.
If you actually think that swaps could be possible, then I dare you to find a single settlement that wouldn't be an obstacle to an independent Palestinian state.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
shira
(30,109 posts)The Jordanians didn't think that land was valuable enough to build anything there for the 19 years they occupied that land.
Once the Jews built there, all of a sudden they built in the best areas.
King_David
(14,851 posts)As demonstrated ....The criticism however was....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)That's because it is the Jewish state...
It's a 3000 year problem.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)aranthus
(3,385 posts)The Palestinian national movement is built on denying to Jews that which the Palestinians demand for themselves. Nationhood.