Two-thirds of Israelis support peace with Palestinians that ensures security

[aranthus]

"67% of respondents say they would support two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, with land swaps and a demilitarized Palestine."

http://www.timesofisrael.com/two-thirds-of-israelis-support-peace-with-palestinians-that-ensures-security-polls-find/

[Little Tich]

1. That proposal wouldn't create a viable Palestinian state - it would just make the current situation

permanent. For a Palestinian state to be even remotely viable on the ground, the settlements have to be removed. No land swaps can compensate for the logistical problems caused by the settlements - they're all built in the wrong place specifically to make a Palestinian state impossible.

The choice is simple: settlements or two states, but not both.

[shira]

2. But I thought you were against occupation and settlements. Guess not...

For all your arguing about Palestinians and their rights, you reject any proposal that would give them the rights you demand.



And the fascist PA has already agreed to land swaps. I don't think you want to be seen as more extreme than the PA.

[Little Tich]

4. Why can't Israel just remove the settlements?

They're considered illegal anyway by the rest of the world, and no land swaps would be needed...

[azurnoir]

5. Israel doesn't want what would be nearly a civil war that's why

remember the Gaza, remember the mess when Israel removed 8,000 settlers from there? Well there are 400,000+ settlers in just the West Bank and a number of these settlers have armed themselves in order to keep what happened in Gaza from happening to them, more over a number of IDF soldiers are settlers themselves

[Little Tich]

19. Yeah, that's what I think as well.

Just playing "what if?", but I'm not really getting anywhere.

[azurnoir]

20. I know what ya mean

[shira]

7. Why must your position be more extreme than the fascist PA?

So it's not about human rights to you. It's about a little land, here and there. A border dispute.

Why don't you just say so?

[Little Tich]

18. Which settlements, if any, would be able to remain if there was a swap?

The problem is that every single settlement that would remain will make a Palestinian state less viable simply because they're hogging land the Palestinian state needs. If a settlement were to remain, surely a swap should offset the imbalance or if not, the swap would be useless.

The reason why I'm opposed to any swaps is because I looked at the map. There is no settlement that doesn't make a Palestinian state less viable, and there's no possible swap that could change that.

If you think the swaps are so good, please explain to me which lands the Palestinians are going to get and how that would improve the viability of a Palestinian state. Right now it looks just like a scam - the Palestinians are supposed to cede land they need for land they don't need.

It would be much better for the Palestinians if Israel just abided by international law and removed all of the illegal settlements. Nobody would have to make any concessions; status quo ante for both sides.

[Mosby]

26. The major settlement blocks only occupy a couple percent of the WB

Some of the swapped land will be used to connect the WB with Gaza, how else do you connect the two? Is Palestine viable right now when one of it's major population centers is totally disconnected with the rest of the future country?

Further, Israel can built roads to improve connections to and from all the major cities in the WB and Gaza, which would ameliorate the effect of poorly placed settlements like har homa and ma'ale adumim.

A retired Israeli general came up with a very creative solution a few years ago, he called it "the regional solution":

Starts on page 35:

http://www.biu.ac.il/Besa/docs/BM4En.pdf

[Little Tich]

33. Giora Eiland is insane, and that's speaking mildly...

Anyway, Jordan has no interest in the West Bank anymore, and a "federation" with Palestine could make Jordan into a Palestinian state, something the Jordanians don't want. Jordan isn't Palestine.

No, for a two-state solution to work the settlements just have to go, but I personally think it's impossible to force the settlers to go home to Israel, which leads me to believe that there will be a single bi-national state with full right of return for all Palestinians in the future.

[Mosby]

34. he suggested two different regional solutions

I was referencing the second, I thought I made that clear.

I'm curious, do you think Jews should be allowed to live in the future state of Palestine?

What kind of Palestinian state do you envision?

[Little Tich]

35. The problem is that a "territorial exchange" wouldn't remove the settlements.

The settlements are the main geographical problem - there are others, but let's pretend that a two-state solution is actually possible - and I can't see a way to make a Palestinian state possible with them in place. For example, East Jerusalem can't expand in any direction simply because it's surrounded by settlements. How do you or anyone else who supports land swaps think that problem could be solved?

[Mosby]

36. all the major settlements are near the green line

It's a simple land swap.

East J'lem might be limited in terms of geography, but the larger and most politically and economically significant cities in the WB like Ramallah, Jenin and Hebron have no growth limitations.

[Little Tich]

37. Settlement blocs, what's that?

Do you have a map?

Either way, East Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine, and if the settlements around it aren't removed, there is no direction for it to expand.

[shira]

3. Meanwhile, 2 of 3 Palestinians Support Terror Attacks, Majority Oppose Two-State Solution

http://ukmediawatch.org/2016/02/03/guardian-report-on-jerusalem-terror-attack-again-highlights-fate-of-perpetrators/

[azurnoir]

6. spamming yet another rightwing site that contains nothing that backs up your title line ?

shira
3. Meanwhile, 2 of 3 Palestinians Support Terror Attacks, Majority Oppose Two-State Solution
View profile
http://ukmediawatch.org/2016/02/03/guardian-report-on-jerusalem-terror-attack-again-highlights-fate-of-perpetrators/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134124506#post3

[shira]

8. Why the obfuscation? Here's the Palestinian poll: 2/3 support Terror attacks....

Two-thirds support an armed intifada and the current wave of stabbings; and support for the two-state solution continues to decline
http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/623

[azurnoir]

9. what was I obfuscating I pointed out a fact about your post

Now more from this link

1) Popular Palestinian-Israeli confrontations:

67% support and 31% oppose use of knives in the current confrontations with Israel. But about three quarters (73%) oppose the participation of young school girls in the stabbing attacks and a quarter supports it.
37% believe that the current confrontations will develop into a new armed intifada, 18% believe they will develop into wide scale peaceful popular confrontations, and 13% believe they will develop in both directions. By contrast, 19% believe the confrontation will stay as they are now and 10% believe they will gradually dissipate.
66% of the public (71% in the Gaza Strip and 63% in the West Bank) believe that if the current confrontations develop into an armed intifada, such a development would serve Palestinian national interests in ways that negotiations could not.
50% of the public (61% in the Gaza Strip and 43% in the West Bank) believe that if the current confrontations develop into wide scale peaceful popular confrontations, such a development would serve Palestinian national interests in ways that negotiations could not.
51% of the public (62% in the Gaza Strip and 43% in the West Bank) believe that if the current confrontations stay as they are now, they would serve Palestinian national interests in ways that negotiations could not.
51% of the Palestinian public (67% in the Gaza Strip and 40% in the West Bank) believe that most of the Palestinians who fell after being shot by the Israeli army or settlers have in fact stabbed or were attempting to stab Israelis. But 47% believe that most of those who were shot have not stabbed or were not attempting to stab Israelis.
We ask the public in an open-ended question what reason it believes behind the lack of large popular participation in the current confrontations. The largest percentage (43%) said that the reason might be fear of the PA or the occupation; 19% thought the reason is despair and the belief that the confrontations are likely to be in vain; 6% said that most people are busy providing for their families; 5% said it is due to lack of factional leadership for the current confrontations; and 4% said it has to do with the lack of friction points with the Israeli occupation forces.
We also asked the public in an open-ended question about the motivation of the little school girls who participate in stabbing attacks: 41% said they believe they are driven by national motivation; 26% said the motivation was personal; and 16% said the motivation was religious. 11% said it was a combination of national and religious motivations.
When comparing the level of support of various parties for the current confrontations, Hamas comes on top with 71% of the public believing that it supports them, followed by the PFLP, receiving 66%, Fatah (59%), and al Mubadara or the Initiative (53%). By contrast, only 33% say president Abbas supports the confrontations, 28% say Jordan supports them, and only 14% say Egypt supports them.


(2) The future of the Oslo agreement:

90% of the public believe that Israel does not abide by the Oslo agreement and 6% believe it does.
68% support and 25% oppose abandoning the Oslo agreement.
But 67% of those who believe that Israel does not abide by the Oslo agreement believe that president Abbas is not serious about abandoning Palestinian Oslo obligations and only 25% think he is serious.
70% support and 26% oppose a decision to ban entry of Israeli products into Palestinian areas even if Israel responded by banning the entry of Palestinian products into Israel.
64% support and 33% oppose a decision to stop security coordination with Israel even if Israel responded by preventing Palestinian police access to B and C areas.
58% support and 39% oppose a decision to stop civil coordination with Israel even if Israel responded by banning the travel of those carrying newly issued Palestinian passports that were not coordinated with Israel.
A majority of 52% believe that Israel will abandon its current settlement policy and agree to enter serious negotiations to end its occupation if the Palestinian side suspended its implementation of its Oslo obligations. By contrast, 37% believe that a Palestinian suspension of its Oslo obligations will lead to PA collapse and the return of the Israeli civil administration.

4) Domestic Conditions:

Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands at 15% and positive evaluation of conditions in the West Bank stands at 21%.
Perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stands at 53%. In the West Bank perception of safety and security stands at 29%. Three months ago, perception of safety and security in the Gaza Strip stood at 40% and in the West Bank at 49%.
Findings show that the percentage of Gazans who say they seek to immigrate to other countries stands at 41%; in the West Bank, the percentage stands at 24%. 47% of the Palestinian public believe that if emigration was feasible, 40% or more of Gazans would emigrate, 15% say that the percentage of Gazans who would seek to emigrate is likely to be between 25% and 40%, and 38% say that about a quarter Gazans would emigrate.
Area preferred by Palestinians seeking to emigrate to is Europe, selected by 44% of them (Sweden is the most preferred country selected by 17%, followed Germany selected by 8%, Norway was selected by 4%, and 15% selected other European countries). 15% selected Arab Gulf countries, 13% selected Turkey, 12% selected the US, 4% selected Canada, and 4% selected Jordan.
Hamas’ al Aqsa TV viewership is the highest, standing at 23%, followed by Palestine TV (22%), Al Jazeera and Maan-Mix at 16% each, and Al Arabiyya at 6%.
Perception of corruption in PA institutions stands at 78%.
18% say there is press freedom in the West Bank and 20% say the same about the status of the press in the Gaza Strip.
34% of the Palestinian public say people in the West Bank can criticize the PA authority in the West Bank without fear.
Optimism about the success of reconciliation and the end of the split stands today at 30% and pessimism at 66%. Three months ago optimism stood at 40% and pessimism at 56%.
Belief that Hamas was responsible for hindering the functioning of the reconciliation government does not exceed 23% while 30% believe that the PA and president Abbas were to blame for that and 14% blame the head of the reconciliation government.


(5) Peace Process and Israel’s long term aspirations:

In the absence of a peace negotiation, 60% support a return to an armed intifada; 76% support joining more international organizations; 60% support a popular non-violent resistance; 46% support the dissolution of the PA. Three months ago, only 57% supported return to armed intifada.
Only 45% support and 54% oppose the two-state solution. Three months ago, 48% supported and 51% opposed this solution.
36% support and 62% oppose a package permanent settlement along the lines of the Clinton Parameters and the Geneva Initiative. But 12% of those opposed to the package change their mind and accept it if Israel also accepted the Arab Peace Initiative.
Palestinian views on the most effective means of establishing a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel vary: 46% think that armed action is the most effective, 26% think negotiation is the most effective, and 23% think popular non-violent resistance is the most effective. Three months ago, only 42% said armed action was the most effective and 29% said negotiation was the most effective.
A majority of 65% believes that the two-state solution is no longer practical due to settlement expansion while 34% say it is still practical.
Despite this, only 29% support, and 70% oppose, a one-state solution in which Arabs and Jews enjoy equal rights.
75% believe that the chances for establishing a Palestinian state next to the state of Israel in the next five years are slim to non-existent and 24% believe the chances are high or medium.
The percentage of those who are worried that they would be hurt by Israel or that their land would be confiscated or homes demolished stands at 79%. 21% are not worried.
Furthermore, an overwhelming majority of 82% believes that Israel’s long term aspiration is to annex the lands occupied in 1967 and expel their population or deny them their rights. 16% believe that Israel’s long term aspiration is to insure its security and withdraw from all or most of the territories occupied in 1967.
When asked about the long term aspiration of the PA and the PLO, 65% said that it is to recover all or parts of the land occupied in 1967 while 26% said it was to conquer the state of Israel or conquer the state of Israel and kill most of the Jews.
Findings also show that 45% support the Arab Peace Initiative and 53% oppose it. Similarly, only 39% support a mutual recognition of national identity of Israel as the state for the Jewish people and Palestine as the state for the Palestinian people and 61% oppose it.
An overwhelming majority believes that al Haram al Sharif is in grave danger: 51% believe that Israel intends to destroy al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock and replace them with a Jewish temple; 17% believe that it intends to divide the plateau on which the two mosques sit so that Jews would have a synagogue alongside the Muslim holy places; and 9% believe that Israel intends to change the status quo prevailing in the plateau since 1967 by allowing Jews to pray there. Only 11% believe that Israel is interested in maintaining the status quo without change.

http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/623

[shira]

10. You questioned my post #3 claim. Glad to see you agree now. n/t

[azurnoir]

11. That's not what I was questioning about post #3

but I would hope people would take some time and read the polls results and notice parities in number netween those that believe a solution is not in foreseeable future and those that approve of the knife attacks

[shira]

12. Aww, so you questioned a source that turned out being correct. Glad you see your mistake now. n/t

[azurnoir]

13. I questioned the use of a source that did not contain anything in your title line

here it is again

shira
3. Meanwhile, 2 of 3 Palestinians Support Terror Attacks, Majority Oppose Two-State Solution
View profile
http://ukmediawatch.org/2016/02/03/guardian-report-on-jerusalem-terror-attack-again-highlights-fate-of-perpetrators/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134124506#post3

[shira]

14. .

[King_David]

15. No , you were trying to deflect and derail nt

[azurnoir]

16. lol knew the second comment was you without looking

[leftynyc]

21. So, in other words,

same old shit, different day.

[King_David]

22. Yes

for this poster .

[leftynyc]

23. Did you see the story I posted

this morning. Never, in my life, would I expect anyone on a liberal board approve of using the same slimy scummy deceptive practices that ted cruz uses. I hope the Times sues the shit out of them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134124581

[King_David]

24. Yes and the excusing and deflection is in full usage on that thread too

[leftynyc]

25. The tried and NOT true

tactics of those with a losing argument.

[azurnoir]

27. Did you see the archived copy of it?

Activists from progressive Jewish human rights groups created a very convincing-looking fake edition of The New York Times to protest the leading newspaper’s coverage of Israel.


The parody publication is written from a left-wing, anti-racist, anti-Islamophobic perspective that criticizes Israel’s violations of international law and Palestinian human rights, along with what the groups say is the Times’ failure to adequately address these crimes.

Early Tuesday morning, the activists, under the name The New York Times, sent an email out to reporters across the country titled “NYT Announces New Editorial Policy: Rethinking Our Coverage of Israel-Palestine.” The email included a link to an entire website modeled on the Times’ own site, www.NewYorkTimes-IP.com, which the activists created.

Less than 24 hours after the site was made public, on Tuesday evening, it was taken down. It is archived here.

http://www.salon.com/2016/02/03/progressive_jewish_groups_make_new_york_times_parody_issue_to_protest_newspapers_biased_israel_palestine_coverage/

here is the archived copy from Salons link

https://web.archive.org/web/20160202195655/http://www.newyorktimes-ip.com/

[leftynyc]

28. That you could call that

piece of crap - Israel is the devil and the IDF is poison anti racist is completely beyond my understanding - AND pretending it was an actual supplement to the NY Times. But considering it's you, I'm not surprised. It was deceptive, slimy, sleazy and exactly what ted cruz is accused of. You must be so proud.

[azurnoir]

29. Democracy Now disagrees with you

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/3/jewish_peace_groups_reveal_role_in

[leftynyc]

30. LOL - big fucking deal

I'm sure all the Israel haters see nothing wrong with using sleazy deceptive tactics. It's really all they have.

[shira]

31. LOL - that NYT fakery is pretty much what BDS'ers all about. BDS, anti-Zios...

It's no wonder they all love that propaganda.

It's what they do all the damned time. They embrace the lies & want that incitement & hate mass produced everywhere.

[leftynyc]

32. And they're so convinced

that any day now one of the people running for President is going to take up for the Palestinians and trash Israel. Because EVERYONE obviously agrees with them. It's laughable.

[azurnoir]

17. here's my comment questioning why you's use a source that didn't back up your statement

Star Member azurnoir (42,267 posts)
6. spamming yet another rightwing site that contains nothing that backs up your title line ?

shira
3. Meanwhile, 2 of 3 Palestinians Support Terror Attacks, Majority Oppose Two-State Solution
View profile
http://ukmediawatch.org/2016/02/03/guardian-report-on-jerusalem-terror-attack-again-highlights-fate-of-perpetrators/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134124506#post3

The people evolve to catch up to Bernie, Hillary evolves to catch up to the people

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134124506#post6