Merkel: Now’s not the time for major progress to Palestinian state

[Mosby]

BERLIN — The current climate in the Middle East does not allow for major steps toward the creation of a Palestinian state, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said here Tuesday, calling instead for small steps to safeguard a future two-state solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"Now is certainly not the time to make really comprehensive progress, but you can achieve improvements in certain places,” she said at a joint press conference with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

"The European Union, and Germany as a member state, is very concerned about seeing things realistically,” Merkel said. “We know the threat of terrorism that Israel has to endure. We believe, on the other hand, that we have to advance a process of peaceful coexistence, and this, according to our opinion, is ultimately built on a two-state solution.”

Berlin is ready to help with any steps Israelis and Palestinians can take to advance the cause of peaceful coexistence, she said, “especially regarding questions of economic development.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/on-relevance-of-2-states-merkel-dovetails-with-netanyahu/

[6chars]

1. what about improving the situation for the population on the ground in the West Bank?

Netanyahu told a handful of reporters who covered his one-day trip to the German capital. “It is in our interest to fight terror in the West Bank and also in the Gaza Strip, and one way of doing this is to stabilize an improve the situation for the population on the ground.”

horrors

[geek tragedy]

6. funny, he called the UN chief a terrorist apologist for for saying the same thing nt

[Little Tich]

2. Perhaps Merkel believes that the illegal settlements will shrink til next year...

Or perhaps it's just time to reassess the whole two-state idea...

[Mosby]

3. I agree

The Palestinian people have given up on democracy, they are ruled by two completely different sets of dictators, who show no willingness to return to a democratic system. It's been almost 9 years since the last election. They have embraced violence as a form of "negotiation" and their "leaders" refuse to negotiate with the Israelis. It's time to recognize the reality of the situation, by their own words and actions, they are not interested in their own country.

Over half the population of Jordan is already Palestinian, Israel should let Jordan annex a good part of the West Bank so they can be reunited. By merging with Jordan, they will be part of a country that already has the necessary institutions needed for a functional state.

[Little Tich]

4. Keep on dreaming - Jordan has enough Palestinians already...

Besides, taking over only the parts of the West Bank and perhaps East Jerusalem that Israel doesn't want would be a huge economical drain and of no benefit for Jordan in any way. It's a tough sell, to say the least - the West Bank in its current form can't even be given away...

[Mosby]

5. the Palestinians of the West Bank

Have the highest standard of living in the entire Middle East outside of Israel proper and the Gulf region of course.

Jordan is an extremely poor country, they could benefit from the economic activity.

The fantasy at this point is the two or one state solution.

[geek tragedy]

8. Two-state solution is fantasy, one-state solution is reality nt

[Mosby]

10. but you must know that will never happen

It's really amazes me that people think a one state solution is desirable and likely. What country on earth would allow themselves to be destroyed through a massive absorption of a hostile, foreign population? It's just silly, though I do understand its meant as more of a jab, at least I hope that's the reason.

I could see an apartheid like situation in the west bank develop in the future, and the truth is that a lot of Israelis, primarily the religious ones, probably would not give a shit, at least in the short-term.

I could also see Israel unilaterally pulling out of most of the west bank, this scenario is by far the worst outcome for the Palestinians, since the west bank would go the way of Gaza, with all the same implications. But this approach probably would have the most support across the various sectors in Israel in the absence of any sort of two state resolution.

I think the most humane solution for the Palestinians at this point is for the West to start pressuring/encouraging the Arab world to deal with the problem that they created and currently maintain by participating in a regional solution, this would probably involve some sort of stewardship on the part of the Jordanians. This could be temporary or permanent but the Jordanians could stand to benefit via west bank tax revenue, increased economic activity from the Palestinians who average much higher incomes that the Jordanians and possible access to the Mediterranean Sea, which would be of significant value. The Palestinians would gain the stability they need to focus on growth and the development of the state institutions necessary for a functional democracy. Israel would obviously, due to past behavior, need to work out specific security arrangements for holy sites like the Tomb of the Patriarchs and Joseph's tomb.

[geek tragedy]

18. Apartheid is one variant/stage of the one-state solution

You're acting as if Israel is completely blameless and as if the settlements are not a problem. Jordanian not going to bail the Israelis out while letting them keep Al Aqsa. The Jordanians are not Senate Republicans who value service to Israel over their own country's well-being.

[King_David]

20. If there is a unilateral pullout, which is likely

Absorption back into Jordan may be the only option. Far more likely than a one state merger between enemies.

[geek tragedy]

22. Israel does not build settlements so that it can tear them down nt

[branford]

39. How do you explain all those abandoned and torn-down

former settlements in the Sinai and Gaza?

[Little Tich]

11. I think your assessment of the economic conditions in the West Bank isn't grounded in reality.

The GDP per capita in the West Bank is a whopping $1924, and for Gaza, the figure is $876. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Palestinian_territories). Meanwhile, the GDP per capita in Jordan is estimated to around $6000, which is around three times as much as in the West Bank. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Jordan)

Your notion that the West Bank is a good place with a higher economic standard than Jordan is pure fantasy. Please try harder to find a good reason for Jordan to want to annex any part of the West Bank.

[Mosby]

12. im talking real income

Not per capita gdp. I'll post more tomorrow.

https://results.usaid.gov/west-bank-and-gaza#fy2014

[Little Tich]

13. Good luck -you'll need it! n/t

[azurnoir]

15. gee do food stamps count as real income in your mind too?

I mean seeing that you're posting links to government aid and implying it's income

[6chars]

14. maybe cooperating with Israel would lead to better results

just kidding. Palestinian leadership has done great things for its people.

[Little Tich]

16. How would cooperation with Israel improve the economy in the West Bank and East Jerusalem?

One of the pillars of Israeli Apartheid is enforced economical inequality for the Palestinians. The Palestinian economy is at the level Israel allows it to be - not more, not less. If Israel wants, there are restrictions that could be lifted that would give immediate results, but Israel has actively chosen not to do so.

The matter has been investigated, and the Palestinian Ministry of National Economy in
cooperation with the Applied Research Institute- Jerusalem (ARIJ) wrote a report "The economic costs of the Israeli occupation for the occupied Palestinian territory" that provides detailed information on how Israel keeps the Palestinians on a diet.

Source: The economic costs of the Israeli occupation for the occupied Palestinian territory, by the Palestinian Ministry of National Economy in cooperation with the Applied Research Institute- Jerusalem (ARIJ), September 2011

1. Introduction (p1)
(snip)

Many of these restrictions have been in place since the start of the occupation in 1967, reflecting an unchanged colonial attitude of Israel, which aims to exploit Palestinian natural resources (including land, water and mining resources) for its own economic benefits. This “exploitative” policy has been coupled by the desire of Israel to prevent any Palestinian competition with Israeli economic interests. This attitude is summed up by Yitzhak Rabin, while holding the post of Israel’s defense minister in 1986: “there will be no development initiated by the Israeli Government, and no permits will be given for expanding agriculture or industry, which may compete with the State of Israel” (UNCTAD 1986). This has been (and still is) reflected in a series of Israeli obstacles related to customs, transportation and infrastructure which as this report will show have prevented the development of a competitive Palestinian tradable sector and especially Palestinian trade with non-Israeli partners.

Despite not being able to quantify all the costs, the numbers are huge: we estimate that the total measurable cost of the Israeli occupation on the Palestinian economy in 2010 was USD 6.897 billion; a staggering 84.9% of the total Palestinian GDP in 2010. As the costs are measured in current prices, we use GDP in 2010 measured in current prices as well. For that we use the estimate of USD 8.124 billion provided by the IMF and the Palestinian Ministry of Finance.

source: http://www.un.org/depts/dpa/qpal/docs/2012Cairo/p2%20jad%20isaac%20e.pdf

Note: My bolding.

[6chars]

17. gee that's a toughy

1) stop committing, sponsoring, inciting and celebrating terrorism
2) reap resulting benefits of increased economic interaction with a modern economy

The progressives who encourage the Palestinians to avoid any cooperation with Israel and to seek conflict with Israel are not helping the Palestinians, but rather condemning them to third-world status (albeit a very ennobled third-world status). There is much they could gain from a partnership with Israel. For example, modern greenhouses are of far more economic value than the plastic and steel materials used to build them.

[geek tragedy]

19. NOTHING IS ISRAEL'S FAULT. nt

[geek tragedy]

7. Lol, rightwing fantasies now involve not only imagining

that the Palestinians want to be occupied but that Jordan will bail Israel out

Not to mention giving the major Jewish holy sites to Jordan with 75,000 seething and armed settler nutjobs in the way.

[King_David]

21. Unilateral pullout isn't Right Wing

Its policy of Labor party now and far more likely than mortal enemies,Jews and Ceazy antiZionist and antisemites such as Hamas merging into one state- just not gonna happen.

[geek tragedy]

23. Labor is the minority party and posturing as Likud Lite.

The Israelis will not tear down their settlements, they will not deploy the IDF, and they sure as heck won't invite the Jordanian army to deploy into Jenin and Ramallah.

Not to mention the fact that Jordan doesn't want the West Bank, and the people of the West Bank don't consider themselves Jordanian nor do they want to be ruled by a king.

Israel has screwed itself by supporting the gross injustice of the settlements, and will reap what it has sown for the past 50 years.

[King_David]

24. Labor is not viewed like that

By any Democratic Party president or government and if ever in power , they will be celebrated in Washington by President Obama,Sanders or Clinton like Bibi never ever was or will be..... Unilateral withdrawal plan and all.

[geek tragedy]

26. You realize you've broken with Bernie Sanders on Israel/Palestine, correct?

You are now much more in line with Cruz/Rubio than Sanders.

it's the Republican position that there should not be negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and that the two-state solution is not worth pursuing.

[King_David]

28. No that's not true at all,

In fact it's absolute rubbish.

My views on Israel are completely in sync with Sanders and every other Democratic Party rep , candidate or official.

So not sure where you get that rubbish from.

On the other hand there is not one , not one Democratic Party candidate, rep or official that would tolerate the anti Israel rhetoric spouted here....

Only on a well hidden dungeon area of any Democratic Party supporting site can it be found.

Please show us where Bernie Sanders agrees with any of the extremist crazy rhetoric you spout here on Israel..... Any?

[geek tragedy]

30. you reject negotiations aimed at establishing an independent Palestinian state.

that is a radical opinion WAY outside the mainstream of pro-Israel Democrats. It's more extreme than Jeb Bush or even Marco Rubio.

It's beyond AIPAC. It's more in line with John Bolton and ZOA.

Your position ("just give the Palestinians to Jordan&quot is also a dishonest fantasy designed to absolve Israel of any responsibility for cleaning up its own mess.

[King_David]

32. Instead of fabricating garbage about my opinions

My opinion is basically the same on Israel as my party - the Democratic Party- I am a lifelong supporter and organizer and activist.

Please point to how your extremist anti Israel vitriol is anywhere the same as any Democratic Party candidate or rep.

Please link to where Bernie said any such thing at all...

[geek tragedy]

33. does Bernie support forcing the Palestinians to become part of Jordan? Does Bernie support an

end to negotiations and a unilateral withdrawal?

[King_David]

34. Where's the link ?

LOL

There is none .... We all know it.

[geek tragedy]

35. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=125024

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=125019

[King_David]

36. No Bernie links ?

Ha ha

[geek tragedy]

37. .

Ezra Klein

Do you view yourself as a Zionist?

Bernie Sanders

A Zionist? What does that mean? Want to define what the word is? Do I think Israel has the right to exist, yeah, I do. Do I believe that the United States should be playing an even-handed role in terms of its dealings with the Palestinian community in Israel? Absolutely I do.

Again, I think that you have volatile regions in the world, the Middle East is one of them, and the United States has got to work with other countries around the world to fight for Israel's security and existence at the same time as we fight for a Palestinian state where the people in that country can enjoy a decent standard of living, which is certainly not the case right now. My long-term hope is that instead of pouring so much military aid into Israel, into Egypt, we can provide more economic aid to help improve the standard of living of the people in that area.

Sanders responded: “In terms of Israel and Palestine you are looking at one of the more depressing tragedies that has gone on in the world for the last 60 years. And I would not be telling you the truth if I said I have a magical solution. But this is what I do believe. I believe in two simple principles. Number one, Israel has a right to exist in peace and security. The Palestinians are entitled to a state of their own with full political and economic power. That's the broad view that I hold and I will do everything that I can to make that happen.”

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/backstory-bernie-sanders-and-palestine

That is not consistent with a unilateral withdrawal and folding the occupied territories into Jordan, as if.

[King_David]

38. I don't see anything in there I would disagree with

I do not see anything approximating the extremist anti Israel rhetoric you write here daily - at all .... Zero ... Zilch

[geek tragedy]

9. Merkel knows the one-state solution is the only solution

and is barely giving lip service to the fantasy alternative.

[King_David]

25. Nope , Merkel like anyone else knows there will never be a one state solution, ever.

Only extremists push that option.

A merger with Jordan and Egypt is far more likely and realistic than a Merger with Jews.

You say Jordan doesn't want it?

Well Palestinians and Israeli Jews sure as hell don't want to merge they seem to be mortal enemies. Jordan and Egypt not so much.

[geek tragedy]

27. Israel will not forcibly uproot its nutjob armed settlers to see

them replaced by the Jordanian army.

The West Bank is Israel's problem, not Jordan's, and there isn't anything Israel can do to make it Jordan's problem.

[King_David]

29. Time will tell after the unilateral withdrawal...

[geek tragedy]

31. that worked great with Gaza nt

[grossproffit]

40. Germany is going to have their hands full in a few years.