Is Bernie Sanders a civil rights campaigner or a loyal supporter of Israel?

[Mosby]

Standing meters from Martin Luther King during a Civil Rights march must have been a proud moment for the young Bernie Sanders. One can imagine the now veteran US senator sensing the gravity of the situation, burdened by duty and moral obligation to bring an end to centuries of legalized discrimination.

In those defining years, the presidential hopeful possibly found no contradiction between campaigning for equal civil rights in his own country and his Zionism. In fact, his visits to Israeli kibbutzim in the sixties may even have reinforced his socialist beliefs. Zionism back than, and Israel before 1967, despite its creation through the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, had seduced many on the progressive left. This is no longer the case.

Increasing numbers of American Jews have realized that liberal values are incompatible with support for Israel. The Zionist state’s champions these days are very much part of the establishment; neo-con elites, even right-wing fascist groups; people who are diametrically opposed to the apparently inclusive and universal politics of Bernie Sanders.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/americas/23882-is-bernie-sanders-a-civil-rights-campaigner-or-a-loyal-supporter-of-israel

The author of this piece is making the EXACT same argument the anti-Israel posters make here - that liberalism is not compatible with Zionism. The far left created this silly false dilemma logical fallacy and will soon throw Sanders under the bus because he is a Zionist.

You reap what you sow.

[still_one]

1. Sanders is a supporter of Israel and its right to exist. He also is for a two state solution.

There is nothing "incompatible" with his liberal values and his support for Israel.

The only ones that have a problem with that are those that are either extremely anti-Israel, or those that do not believe in a two state solution.

Ironic, because both of those views are extremist on the opposite side, yet they agree on this pure misrepresentation of Sanders

[Mosby]

2. MONDOWEISS: Sanders is leftwing on economic issues, but sees Israel as up against ISIS

-snip-

In a famous encounter at a town hall meeting in Vermont near the end of the onslaught– video below–, Sanders got so angry at pro-Palestinian constituents who were obviously deeply upset by an assault that had killed 500 Palestinian children that he told them to “shut up.”

What the encounter demonstrated is that Sanders’s own leftwing base has no illusions about Israel, they see the country as a marauding human rights abuser. But while he faulted Israeli “overreaction” in Gaza, and has issued criticisms of Israeli conduct over the years and has bucked the Israel lobby over its opposition to Palestinian statehood initiatives at the U.N., Sanders cleaves to a very conventional mainstream view of the conflict, in which Hamas is to blame, the Palestinians leadership is not a partner, and Arab countries are bad actors (as he has said in 2009).

And when pressed about Israel’s conduct at that meeting, he brings ISIS out of nowhere into the discussion, suggesting that Israel is a defense against 7th century religious fundamentalism. He also said that he’s been working on the Israel/Palestine conflict for 50 years.

-snip-

When Sanders did not oppose that pro-Israel legislation during the Israeli assault, Counter Punch’s James Marc Leas asked: “Why did Bernie Sanders and Patrick Leahy allow their names to be used for pro-war propaganda so at variance with the facts?”

I think the answer is generational: Sanders is an old Jewish guy for whom the establishment of Israel was a glorious response to the helplessness of the European Jewish story. Notice that Israel played an important role in his political progress and in his moving from the city to Vermont as a young man. New York Times, 2007:

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/sanders-leftwing-economic/

[geek tragedy]

9. Mondoweiss? nt

[Mosby]

10. It's an example of far left thinking re sanders

[geek tragedy]

3. Sanders declines to call himself a Zionist.

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation

Ezra Klein

Do you view yourself as a Zionist?

Bernie Sanders

A Zionist? What does that mean? Want to define what the word is? Do I think Israel has the right to exist, yeah, I do. Do I believe that the United States should be playing an even-handed role in terms of its dealings with the Palestinian community in Israel? Absolutely I do.

Again, I think that you have volatile regions in the world, the Middle East is one of them, and the United States has got to work with other countries around the world to fight for Israel's security and existence at the same time as we fight for a Palestinian state where the people in that country can enjoy a decent standard of living, which is certainly not the case right now. My long-term hope is that instead of pouring so much military aid into Israel, into Egypt, we can provide more economic aid to help improve the standard of living of the people in that area.

[Mosby]

7. But then he described his Zionism as the right of Israel to exist

He's trying to be careful so he won't be thrown under the "progressive" bus.

[geek tragedy]

8. acknowledging the right to self-determination doesn't make one a Zionist.

In that respect, he's as much of a Palestinian nationalist as he is a Zionist.

He explicitly opposes the current policy of favoring Israel over the Palestinians.

[oberliner]

11. That is actually exactly what makes one a Zionist

That is indeed the very definition of the term.

[geek tragedy]

14. no, one can support self-determination without

supporting a form of government explicily based on religious identity

[King_David]

12. You defined Bernie there

As a Zionist .

Thanks for making that point .

And it's exactly opposite to your views on Israel .

[azurnoir]

4. interview with Ezra Klein

Ezra Klein
Do you view yourself as a Zionist?

Bernie Sanders
A Zionist? What does that mean? Want to define what the word is? Do I think Israel has the right to exist, yeah, I do. Do I believe that the United States should be playing an even-handed role in terms of its dealings with the Palestinian community in Israel? Absolutely I do.

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/28/9014491/bernie-sanders-vox-conversation

[King_David]

13. No gotcha for you : He does not say he's not a Zionist in your clip...

In fact he is saying he is a Zionist according to his definition....


How many anti-Zionist Jews volunteer on Jewish Zionist kibbutzim? ( that pleural for kibbutz in Hebrew)

[azurnoir]

15. well thank you for helping me refute what's being sold from other pundits such as Juan Cole

up and down this thread and kudo's on a decided change of heart from the last time I posted the snip from Ezra Klein interview

Star Member King_David (13,854 posts)
20. Bernie Sanders as a Jewish candidate can not possibly call himself a Zionist

He's already had the most disgusting antisemitic canards leveled against him with people claiming he had dual loyalties.


Guess you don't understand what a Jewish candidate would have to go through that other non Jewish candidates would not?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=121136

[King_David]

16. Exactly

Bernies support of Israel is diametrically opposite to half the group here

[bemildred]

18. An excellent question:

"A Zionist? What does that mean?"

It is evident to anyone who hangs around here for long that there is vast disagreement about "What does that mean?" In fact many of the most heated arguments are about that. Who gets to be a legitimate zionist and who must be expelled from the fold.

[azurnoir]

19. exactly and IMO Bernie gave an excellent answer too

[Mosby]

5. Juan Cole: The Middle East Policy of President Bernie Sanders

Sanders supported the Israeli attack on Gaza last summer but thought the Israeli army was a little heavy-handed and ‘over-reacted’ with some of its actions like bombing schools being used as civilian shelters. (There were no weapons at these schools). Sanders excused Israeli actions against Gaza civilian populations on the grounds that missiles were being fired from Gaza into Israel from populated centers. The Israeli campaign killed around 2000 Palestinians, most of them non-combatants. Another 1400 or so were killed in 2008-2009, and there have been many other Israeli bombings and other military actions against Palestinians in Gaza. Gaza rockets, most of them tiny high school science projects, mostly land uselessly in the desert, so that totaling them up into the thousands is a mere propaganda point. Over the past decade, they have killed 44 Israelis. The launching of the rockets by Hamas is a war crime, and the majority of those killed have been innocent non-combatants. But the disproportionate use of force is also a violation of international law, and a thousand to one kill ratio suggests disproportion. Sanders’ Israel policy seems likely to tilt more toward Tel Aviv than that of Obama, though Sanders did boycott the address of PM Binyamin Netanyahu to Congress in March.

http://www.juancole.com/2015/04/president-bernie-sanders.html

[Jarqui]

6. Bernie has defended and criticized Israel depending on the circumstances

He's not going to give up civil rights to appease the right wing in Israel. The guy needs to get over himself.

Netanyahu and his right wing neo-con elites are not doing so hot right now.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/More-Israelis-prefer-Gantz-than-Netanyahu-as-PM-poll-finds-434878

Bernie probably won't spend much time on this. He's focused on the domestic issues and I think he's right to do so.

[Little Tich]

17. Hopefully, this question will answered after 20 January 2017. n/t