Detroit Jews ask: Are settlement boycotts the same as BDS?

[Little Tich]

Source: Times of Israel

Community’s annual Walk for Israel won’t accept sponsorship from those who support blacklisting West Bank products

JTA — For the second year in a row, the Detroit area’s Walk for Israel has rebuffed the sponsorship of left-wing pro-Israel groups because of their support for boycotting settlements.

At the heart of the dispute is a question of definitions: Is support of a boycott targeting Jewish enterprises beyond Israel’s 1967 borders the same as backing the blanket economic and cultural boycott of Israel called for by the pro-Palestinian Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement?

Andre Douville, the chairman of the coalition organizing the walk, said Partners for Progressive Israel and Americans for Peace Now fit the coalition’s definition of supporting the BDS movement.

“Simply put, our advocacy and policy statement says that any organization that supports any form of BDS would not be accepted as a cosponsor,” Douville told JTA on Friday, two days before the event, which celebrates Israel’s independence. “They want to argue that they only support it for business in the occupied territories.”

Read more: http://www.timesofisrael.com/detroit-jews-ask-are-settlement-boycotts-the-same-as-bds/

[Israeli]

1. I think a lot of this ....

....can be placed at the door of ignorance Little Tich , or perhaps lack of education would be a better way to put it .

see : Despite years of Jewish education, much of which focused on Israel, this young American Zionist was still ignorant of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.

http://972mag.com/jewish-educations-sin-of-omission/119397/

[Little Tich]

2. Fortunately, today there's the internet, and it's very good at unindoctrinating people.

A school is supposed to be a moral authority, and shouldn't be teaching people things that aren't really true. It's not exclusively a Jewish problem - I went to a school that embraced Christian values for a while, and they taught me that playing Dungeons & Dragons was tantamount to summoning Satan. I never told them that I enthusiastically summoned Satan every week.

There's a definite risk that some of these people who realized that they were practically lied to, will turn against their school and dismiss everything that they were taught, not just the bad bits. But then again, some of them probably won't care, and will keep believing in what they were told.

[Israeli]

10. Funny you should say that .....

Take a look at this .....

Israeli, Palestinian teens open back channel via Facebook

Summary: What started as verbal hostilities between Israeli and Gazan teenagers turned into meaningful online dialogue when mutual accusations gave way to curiosity about each other's lives.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/05/israel-gaza-social-media-facebook-youth-communication.html#ixzz48z9LdhvC

I hope the fanatics on both sides will let them continue but somehow I doubt it .

[aranthus]

3. It's not that at all.

It is that so much of the anti-Israel crowd seeks the destruction of the Jewish state, and that there is so much interconnection between groups with legitimate concern and those that are hateful and that try to conceal their hatefulness in the usual high souding slogans, that it is safer to err on the cautious side and have no truck with anything that smacks of being anti-Israel.

[azurnoir]

4. No IMO it's that many proIsrael American already believe that the West Bank settlements

are part of Israel

[aranthus]

5. As one of those pro-Israel American Jews

I can assure you that you are wrong.

[azurnoir]

7. well as ou say you're 1

[aranthus]

8. And you're not.

I think I have a better handle on my own community.

[azurnoir]

9. you make oh so many assumptions don't you

go ahead I think it's funny

[aranthus]

11. More of a conclusion, but please correct me.

What branch? What was your Torah portion?

[Israeli]

13. Wow........

....just wow ...........true colors .

Who says religion has nothing to do with the IP conflict .........

You ask the average secular Israeli that aranthus your in for a shock .

[King_David]

17. Yea but he's talking about the average secular American Jew

You should come visit and learn about us.

[Israeli]

20. " secular " KD ..........????? !!!!!!!!!!!!...........

What branch? What was your Torah portion?

Definition of secular in English:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/secular

[Israeli]

21. Maybe you should come learn about us KD ?

So why when we set up a meeting with you ........you never turned up ?

[King_David]

31. Oh I turned up alright, but you weren't anywhere near Tel Aviv

or Jerusalem or Eilat or Rosh Hanikra

[Israeli]

40. Liar , liar .....

...........pants on fire .

You initiated the whole lets meet up .........like it was a test .
All done thru/by pushing me to the limits .
So I agreed .
You wanted me to meet you in a gay bar in Tel Aviv .
I told you no way ......a 65 yr old grandmother meeting some stranger in a bar, gay or not !!!!!
So I said ....lets meet closer to my home , and not alone , with my son ....I gave you a time and place .... you never showed up KD .

I have it all documented with our PMs .

You didnt turn up .... cos you are sooooooo full of it KD .....and you are not fooling anyone ...least of all me .

[King_David]

43. Strange , I don't remember making any concrete plan at all

I'll check.
I missed a great opportunity ,I'm sure ,to educate you on American Jews and Gay life in Tel Aviv - that's too bad.

[aranthus]

38. See Post 37. n/t

[Israeli]

15. Since you are so free with your interrogation.....

............whats your opinion on this ???? :

Court Orders Israeli City to Lay Off Pork-selling Shops on Shabbat

Ashdod municipality was imposing selective enforcement on five stores which 'prominently display the fact that they sell food that is not kosher,' judge rules.

Source : http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.720171

[aranthus]

26. Correct decision by the court. Beyond that, not at all relevant. n/t

Last edited Wed May 18, 2016, 01:29 PM - Edit history (1)

[King_David]

18. I'm pretty sure the assumptions Aranthus made are correct

we all free to make assumptions and assumptions can be corrected too... I myself am from the same community.

[Israeli]

22. If I were you I would let "Aranthus " answer for himself ....

...so why when we agreed to meet with you .....you never turned up KD ???

[azurnoir]

23. somehow your comment makes me remember this does it seem familiar to you?

it was someone avatar yes I know what it signifies and that's great but the avatar it self does it seem familiar?

[Israeli]

27. Go easy on him azurnoir.....

.....I cant stand it when a grown man weeps .

Probably never crossed his mind we would share ......

[azurnoir]

28. Lol I know can't say I wasn't warned

[King_David]

34. What an ignorant,sexist and in this case - homophobic thing to say on a progressive forum...

.....I cant stand it when a grown man weeps .

In 2016 it's pretty okay for both men and women to weep and I can only assume you said that about myself because I am Gay.

Are you sure you live in a progressive country like Israel ?

[King_David]

47. kick

[King_David]

48. What an ignorant,sexist and in this case - homophobic thing to say on a progressive forum...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=128779

[King_David]

32. I have absolutely no idea WTF your talking about here and I assume you have absolutely no idea WTF

You're talking about here either


That avatar means one in 10 Jews is Gay , hence one in every Minyon

But I'm pretty sure you've never been a part of any of that as your complete ignorance and cluelessness and homophobia is showing.
Your clearly not a part of the Jewish community and that's pretty obvious .

[azurnoir]

33. lol I said I knew what it signified but I'm glad to see you do too

[King_David]

35. Clueless

[azurnoir]

36. are you? sorry to hear that

[Israeli]

44. " Clueless "

Not really

BTW azurnoir ..........have you heard how amazing we Israelis are at everything hi tech ?

[King_David]

45. Thank you

[aranthus]

25. Not an assumption

I've been on the board for years and so has azurenoir. I have had the chance to read lots of his/her posts. My conclusion may be wrong and I will wait to see if/how my question is answered.

[azurnoir]

29. I am not nor was I ever religious so there for no torah lessons

[Israeli]

30. Gadol ....

.....LOL .

[aranthus]

37. I wasn't asking if you were religious.

Last edited Wed May 18, 2016, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Were you an American secular Jew, you might have picked up on that.

To be clear, especially for those who are not Jewish, I was asking about your connection to, and/or education in, anything Jewish that would give some legitimacy to your disparaging post about what American Jews think.

I'm not religious. I have many family members who are not religious. Many of us are either Israeli or children of Israelis. Virtually all of us could answer the question, "What branch?" You didn't.

As for the "Torah portion" question. Most of the Jews I know, religious or not, know what a Torah portion refers to, and they would have answered with that, instead of how you answered. Your answer was a bit off.

But let's assume that you are telling the truth. What if you really had no Jewish education growing up, and you aren't at all religious? What can we conclude from that? Well if your parents didn't care enough about passing on their Jewish heritage (or if they didn't have any Jewish education either) to give you any Jewish education, then are they the kind of people who would believe that the settlements are part of Israel? That's supremely unlikely. And if it's true then it's because they are bloody ignorant, not because they are Jewish. So the chances are you didn't come across that opinion in your family. Even more unlikely that it would be a majority opinion.

And if you aren't religious and you didn't have a Jewish education, then what Jews would you associate with now? If you are like most Leftists of Jewish Parentage, then they would be other Leftists. So also not people who would hold the opinion you ascribe to the majority of Jews.

So I stand by my original point. I think I know more about the Jewish Community, and your post is an unfair disparagement.

[Israeli]

14. You think Peace Now is anti-Israel ?

What planet are you living on aranthus ?

[aranthus]

41. Way to divert.

When did I say anything about Peace Now?

[shira]

39. That's absolutely the reason without a doubt. n/t

[FBaggins]

6. The same? Of course not.

But worthy of opposition nevertheless. A few reasons:

* - It's an astroturf tactic of the BDS movement
* - Quite a few of those products are made by Palestinian employees who benefit directly from the employment.
* - Even in a two-state solution, most peace proposals assume that large portions of Area C settlements will be part of Israel. How do consumers differentiate between areas that are truly "occupied" and those that will remain under permanent Israeli control?

[Little Tich]

12. The Illegality of all Israeli Settlements

Source: Adalah NY

The Geneva Conventions outline the responsibilities of an occupying power. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a party, states are prohibited from transferring civilians from the occupying power's territory into the occupied territory, and from creating permanent changes in the occupied territory that are not for the benefit of the occupied population.

There is broad international consensus that that all Israeli settlements in the West Bank – which includes East Jerusalem - violate the Fourth Geneva Convention and are, therefore, illegal according to international law. This position has been affirmed by the UN Security Council in Resolution 465, the International Court of Justice, the world's highest legal body, and by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the respected Israeli human rights organization, B'Tselem. Not only did the US government repeatedly affirm this position throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the Israeli Supreme Court has acknowledged de facto its validity by ruling that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are under "belligerent occupation."

Read more: https://adalahny.org/campaign-main-document/538/illegality-all-israeli-settlements

There's no consensus whatsoever that Israel should be allowed to keep the "settlement blocs", and Netanyahu hasn't offered any swaps. According to UN resolutions and international law, they've got to go.

[shira]

16. Adalah is a joke. We went over that already with their fictitious list of 50 discriminatory laws...

....in Israel. Of course, we can continue with that idiotic list but you'll still pretend they're legitimate and continue to air their propaganda and lies here.

We also just concluded that there is no Apartheid in the W.Bank, so why are you backing anti-Israel boycotts now? Your main reason for doing so was because of "Apartheid" which you now realize doesn't exist.

Remember, it's the constant, deliberate lies about Israel that expose "critics" for who they really are.

[Little Tich]

19. You never convinced me with your weak arguments about Adalah's list.

At best, it was a draw.

You're the one who concluded that there's no Apartheid in the occupied territories, not me.

The Adalah list is still unrefuted - I remain convinced that the Israeli government's mandated use of exclusively Jewish imagery does indeed discriminate against non-Jewish citizens.

[shira]

24. Adalah's claims would make the Gregorian Calendar & Scandinavian flags discriminatory....

Last edited Wed May 18, 2016, 12:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Come on. Claiming the Gregorian calendar or Scandinavian flags are discriminatory is stupid and no one sane argues those symbols are discriminatory. Any loon doing so wouldn't be taken seriously by anyone of importance. I don't think you even believe a Hebrew Calendar and Star of David Flag is discriminatory and if you claim Christian calendars and flags aren't discriminatory but Jewish ones are, then you're the one with the problem.

Another stupid claim by Adalah is that a law that grants benefits to Jewish soldiers is discriminatory because Arabs aren't required to serve in the army like Jews or Druze. The thing is Arabs CAN serve if they want, they're just not required to do so. I want to see you acknowledge this doozy because you'd definitely be against Israel requiring Arabs to serve in its military. Israel gives them a choice due to many who want to avoid fighting fellow Palestinians. Now seriously - if you believe it's discriminatory for Israel not to require Arabs to serve in its military, then give an intelligent reason as to why. I want to see you argue for Israel making military service mandatory for all Arab citizens of Israel. Go on...

Give up yet? I just re-opened that thread since you were so anxious to debate those "discriminatory" laws.

As to Apartheid, you couldn't even present a dictionary definition of the term that would demonstrate how what Israel does (in contrast to any other liberal democracy) falls under the definition of Apartheid. You know full well there's no such thing as Apartheid based on nationality, and that's the best you could argue since the W.Bank situation isn't about race, ethnicity, or religion....meaning no Apartheid.

[Little Tich]

49. I think that it would be more inclusive to include official references to Israel's Arab heritage and

population.

Mandating the exclusive use of Jewish references implies that Israeli Arabs aren't supposed to have a voice or be noticed.

Just a few days ago, Israel’s 68th Independence Day festivities showed a chilling example of this exclusionary imagery, when soldiers formed the words "One People, one Nation". According to Miri Regev, Minister of Culture: “The phrase ‘one people, one nation’ is an expression of the just aspiration of the Zionist movement since its inception: to establish a Jewish state.” (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.719538) I beg to differ - that's a fascist slogan.


Source: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2016/05/12/israel-independence-day-evokes-nazi-era-slogan/

There's a music group called Laibach that has explored monumentalist art, and I think their interpretation in this video clip is pretty close to what Miri Regev meant:

Laibach - Geburt einer Nation (Opus Dei) Official Video

Source:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE1VRNkKm2u6xI_No7SCKVQ

BTW, I support mandatory draft for all citizens - that's how things are supposed to be done. If I was Israeli, I would of course not hesitate to serve in the IDF. It's a duty that can't be shirked.

[shira]

50. The Christian Gregorian Calendar is not discriminatory, nor are Scandinavian flags....

Last edited Thu May 19, 2016, 07:47 AM - Edit history (1)

You cannot make an argument that Israel's Hebrew Calendar, stamps, or Flag are discriminatory either.

Otherwise - you'd be forced to acknowlege the same throughout other western, liberal democracies.

Case closed.

[FBaggins]

42. Was that supposed to be responsive?

I point out that it isn't an authentic movement, but rather a slippery-slope tactic of the BDS movement... and your rebuttal is a link from a rabidly BDS organization? Were you trying to be entertaining or does it just come naturally?

I point out that many of those products are produced by Palestinian employees who benefit from the income. Your response doesn't even try to touch on this fact.

Lastly, I pointed out that most peace proposals assume land swaps that would put the vast majority of the population of the settlements into Israel proper. Did you think that you refuted this simple fact by claiming that the position wasn't unanimous? If so, you failed miserably.

and Netanyahu hasn't offered any swaps.

Untrue.

However, Palestinians have consistently stressed that any land swap must be equal in size and quality. The London-based Al-Quds Al-Arabi translated an Israeli report saying that the major disagreement between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators is the size and quality of the swap. According to this report, the gap between the two sides is huge. Israel wishes to annex nearly 10% of the West Bank, while Palestinians are open to a much smaller 3%. The Israeli report, originally published on the Hebrew-language website Walla News, says that the percentage is derived from the calls by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to include the Hebron and Beit El settlements. In January, AFP picked up an interview from Israeli radio in which Netanyahu said Israel would like to annex 13% of the West Bank. All these figures exclude Jerusalem.

According to UN resolutions and international law, they've got to go.

Also untrue. There's an argument to be made that they violate a number of international standards. At the same time, an easy argument can be made that the Palestinians have committed scores of war crimes and other violations of international standards themselves. You don't get to point at one side's violations and claim that it means that they give up everything.

That's why they're called peace negotiations.

[Little Tich]

46. It seems to me that the offer to the Palestinians was just unspecified areas of desert:

Palestinians receive little in Israeli-proposed land-swap deal
Source: AL Monitor, February 25, 2014

While Israel has been publicly boasting about the areas in the West Bank it wishes to annex, partly in order to quiet some of the settler opposition, it is less known what land plots Israel is willing to give the Palestinians. The controversial idea of turning over to the Palestinians some highly populated Israeli town in the Galilee triangle area made by far-right Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman was never taken seriously and disappeared from the discussion once Liberman decided to take on a more moderate tone. The only references to other potential areas include empty plots of Israeli land near the Gaza Strip and some north of the West Bank near Jenin. These plots don’t fit the Palestinian criteria of quality, nor are the suggested areas large enough to meet the size criteria.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/02/land-swap-israel-palestine-walla.html#


Do you have a map of the Israeli lands to be offered up as a swap? Surely a land swap proposal must include a map...


And BTW, states are completely prohibited from transferring civilians from the occupying power's territory into the occupied territory according to the Geneva Convention. The settlements are a clear example of transfer of civilians, and a war crime.

[shira]

51. As to transferring civilians, you have no idea what you're writing about...

That Geneva convention clearly applies to WW2 events like deporting Jews from occupied territory to death camps and has nothing to do with I/P civilians choosing voluntarily to live on their ancestral lands.

Have you actually read the applicable text?