Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forum74% Republicans, 33% Democrats back Israel over Palestinians poll
It's almost as if supporting Israel is a rightwing position...
http://www.timesofisrael.com/74-republicans-33-democrats-back-israel-over-palestinians-poll/
While 74 percent of Republicans sympathize more with Israel than the Palestinians, the number is 33 percent for Democrats, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted Jan. 4-9 and published Thursday.
Eleven percent of Republicans sympathize with the Palestinians over Israel, and 15 percent sympathize with neither, both sides or did not express a view. Among Democrats, those numbers were 31 percent and 35 percent, respectively.
The findings represent the first time in surveys conducted by Pew that Democrats were about as likely to sympathize with the Palestinians as with Israel. Among “liberal Democrats,” 38 percent of respondents sympathized more with the Palestinians while 26 percent sympathized more with Israel.
Israel +63 amongst Republicans, + 2 amongst Democrats
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HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Everything melts together in the right wing brain.
Response to geek tragedy (Original post)
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AJT
(5,240 posts)policies, not people. The Israeli government has swung way to the right. There needs to be a 2 state solution. There will not be one under the current right-wing Israeli government. Both the Isreali and Palestinian people suffer when they are ruled by far right leaders. I just want there to be peace, and that requires serious thoughtful leadership.
still_one
(92,187 posts)they used the word sympathize:
http://www.people-press.org/2017/01/12/the-world-facing-trump-public-sees-isis-cyberattacks-north-korea-as-top-threats/
which tends to correlate with your analysis
still_one
(92,187 posts)backing in their headline, while the actual PEW poll used the word sympathize.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)36 percent of liberal dems sympathized with both or neither. Given that they are liberal dems I suspect most of those are in the both category.
FBaggins
(26,732 posts)"Blind" in the same sense as one of the three monkeys.
There has never been a poll showing Democratic support for the Palestinians, yet they continue to spin relatively less support for Israel as evidence that support for Israel is the right wing position and opposition is the progressive position.
The overwhelming vote in both parties in congress just a few days ago will either be ignored or (blind to the racist undertones inherent in the position) attributed to the irrationally large influence that Jews have over our political systems.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)hardcore pro-Israel. But that's not representative of the party's base.
I'm not arguing that being anti-Israel is a progressive cause, just noting that the belief that the US should be wearing a Team Israel jersey tends to correlate with being a wingnut, though there are of course exceptions.
FBaggins
(26,732 posts)Yet you keep posting these annual polls as though they somehow support your positions.
Nor is referring to our elected representatives as "elite political class" very far from blaming those darned joos for their grip on our government.
The comparatively minor divide between the implied support levels in this latest poll and the actions of those who represent us... is far easier attributed to the gap between Democrats who actually have some understanding of the issues and history... vs. those who accept BDS spin in ignorance.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Congress is by definition the elite of the political class.
Barack Obama is far more representative of the Democratic party's rank and file--certainly of its liberal wing--than are Steny Hoyer or Chuck Schumer on the subject. Yet the Democrats in Washington have, with a few exceptions, disowned Obama w/r/t Israel/Palestine.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)
Source: http://www.people-press.org/2017/01/12/the-world-facing-trump-public-sees-isis-cyberattacks-north-korea-as-top-threats/
I think it's a general trend that reflects the fact that there's little in Israel for Democrats to support anymore.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)The charts don't show any "general trend", they show a sharp change starting 3 years ago.
Additionally, 10 to 12 percent of Americans harbor antisemitic sentiments, I think we know which group those folks are in. It might be higher, I looked around a little and could not find antisemitic rates by party.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Arabs and Muslims, including the President-elect and his national security advisers.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)However, the situation for Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories will become worse with or without Netanyahu, and I think that will be reflected in American attitudes towards Israel and the Palestinians. What's happening right now is that support for Israel more and more equates support for the settlements, as the recent pro-settlement vote in the Congress clearly shows.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The only democracy in the Middle-East is becoming less democratic, and there is little left for liberals to support. The occupation, the illegal settlements and the Apartheid aren't really compatible with liberal values...
branford
(4,462 posts)in your opinion, is purportedly becoming "less democratic" (which appears to mean more politically conservative, which is hardly the same thing), so your response is to support the progressive, democratic, multicultural humanists from the Palestinian Authority, to say nothing of Hamas? 
If "democracy" is a key component of liberal support, as you suggest, preference for the Palestinians in either the PA or Gaza runs quite contrary to the alleged view and easily marks you a hypocrite.
Would you care to elucidate the "liberal values" inherent to the Palestinians and the culture that warrant liberal support, or do you simply have a double standard for Jews and Israel, just like your heroes at the United Nations.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Israel is politically very much aligned with the racist and nationalist right-wing. All the parties in the Israeli government have a racist agenda, and all the ministers in the government are hardcore racists. I've always been firmly against right-wing nationalism, and it's not primarily about Israel.
As for the Palestinians, I don't see why oppressing them is justified under any circumstances. Much of what is wrong in the occupied territories could be said to be the direct result of them being oppressed by Israel. I support the right of the Palestinians to live normal, oppression-free lives. I also believe in co-existence, and that there's no need for one people to dominate another.
branford
(4,462 posts)Palestinian culture and violence against Jews before 1967 when Israel first occupied the territories, including before 1947, before which Israel wasn't even a state, right wing or otherwise (and we can later discuss of WHY the left has been decimated in Israel, a lesson in democracy punishing foolish concessions and misplaced trust by the left that led to more Israeli suffering, e.g, the Second Intifada).
Also, are you seriously suggesting that the PA and Hamas, the Palestinian governments in the West Bank and Gaza, are not right-wing and racist, pretty much like all their Arab brethren? If you're in doubt, just as a small beginning, read the Hamas charter.
As always, you rationalize and excuse (to the extent you even acknowledge) anything remotely negative about the Palestinians as all due to the occupation. It's absurd, offensive, condescending, and actually denies the Palestinians their free agency. Your double-standards applied to Israel are not particularly subtle. Every time you invoke purported liberal values to decry Israel, you seem to develop complete amnesia about ingrained Palestinian illiberalism, including on matters unrelated to Israel entirely (e.g, women's and gay rights), and then fall back on little more than trite propaganda sound-bites to advance your purported points.
And, quite frankly, you really don't support "right of the Palestinians to live normal, oppression-free lives" or "believe in co-existence." You've openly and strongly advocated one state solutions, which to anyone who both knows the history of the region (and world) and listened and watched the conduct of the surrounding Arab states, historically and today, knows that such a "solution" is little more than a "final solution" for any Jews in the region, and additionally will not bring liberal values or culture to the Palestinian people.
If you truly believe in such liberal values as co-existence, freedom and human rights, you might develop some credibility by first acknowledging the atrocious state of such values among the Palestinians (and all surrounding Arab states), and demand they improve and liberalize. What better way to prove to Israelis and others that they have nothing to fear or distrust from Palestinians or their proposed state than clear demonstrations of actual Palestinian liberalism, as the terms is actually understood by classically liberal Western states? The "occupation" is no excuse, as proven by the relatively good governance and society building of other occupied people under the heel of far worse governments than Israel, such as the Kurds, Tibetans, Cypriots, etc. (people who also get FAR less financial support and political cover that the Palestinians). "Occupation" only seems to be a concern when it involves Jews.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The poverty and misery brought upon the Palestinians by the occupation make any kind of progress difficult. The Palestinians are just getting poorer as the settlements spread and prosper at their expense. The only way to turn things around is to alleviate the effects of the occupation. Until that happens, we will see more terrorist attacks in the future as they are a result of the negative effects of the occupation.
In the hope that you or someone else will actually read it, I'll cut and paste some links to the reports from various NGOs that clearly show that Israel is the problem, and it's not the Palestinians who are at fault for not trying to get their things together. Much of my own views on the viability of a Palestinian state and what could be done to take steps towards solving the I/P conflict are based on reports like these:
Economic monitoring report to the ad hoc liaison committee : main report (English)
Source: The World Bank, 2016/09/19
The Palestinian economic outlook is worrying: recovering slowly from the recession of 2014, the per capita income growth has almost stagnated and projected growth levels will not support animprovement in living standards. The growth rate of the Palestinian economy is projected to hoveraround 3.5 percent in the medium term. Given the high population growth in the Palestinian territories, this implies a near stagnation in per capita incomes. The economy has also not been able to create enough jobs, resulting in stubborn unemployment rates reaching 27 percent in 2016 (18 percent in the West Bank and 42 percent in Gaza), despite recent steps by Israel to increase the number of work permits for West Bank Palestinians. The productive capacity of the Palestinian economy has been eroded over the years with a significant decline in the size of manufacturing and agriculture in the economy.
Read more: http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/474311473682340785/pdf/108205-V2-WP-PUBLIC-SEPT-14-2PM-September-2016-AHLC-World-Bank-Report.pdf
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The economic costs of the Israeli occupation for the occupied Palestinian territory
A bulletin published by the Palestinian Ministry of National Economy in cooperation with the Applied Research Institute- Jerusalem (ARIJ)
Source: ARIJ, September 2011
(snip, Summary II)
Read more: http://www.arij.org/files/admin/latestnews/Economic%20Cost%20of%20Occupation.pdf
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WEST BANK AND GAZA
REPORT TO THE AD HOC LIAISON COMMITTEE
Source: International Monetary Fund (IMF), April 5, 2016
(snip p7)
10. The economic outlook is fraught with uncertainty. Staff’s baseline assumes the political impasse and Israeli restrictions continue, but that recent episodic violence will not escalate into a full-fledged conflict. On that basis, GDP growth is projected to reach 3.2 percent in 2016 (2.7 percent in the West Bank and 5 percent in Gaza), and to average about 3½ percent in the medium term. In Gaza, real GDP is unlikely to return to pre-conflict levels until 2018, a year later than previously estimated. Inflation will likely remain subdued, on account of low inflation in Israel, no marked uptick in international oil prices and relatively weak economic activity.
11. However, the status quo will not boost per capita incomes and reduce unemployment, underscoring the critical importance of a political breakthrough. An estimated quarter of a million young people will enter the labor market during 2015–18. Assuming an elasticity of employment with respect to output of around one in the medium term,9 average annual growth of 4.5 percent would be required to absorb the expanding labor force. A continuation of the current conditions would likely see growth hover around 3½ percent in the medium term. Any significant improvement in medium-term prospects therefore hinges on the peace process and donor engagement.
12. As donor support falters and political tensions persist, economic management and prospects for the PA’s longer term viability are increasingly at risk. While concrete steps toward domestic political reconciliation could help boost the outlook, risks are predominantly on the downside (see Annex I). Absent broader political dialogue, ongoing violence could escalate, leading to another war in Gaza and/or a political and security crisis in the West Bank. In Gaza, reconstruction could slow further if donors’ aid falls short of commitments or if restrictions intensify. Further shortfalls in budget support or the inability to contain spending could undermine an already fragile fiscal position, leading to additional arrears (possibly compromising private creditors’ ability to service loans and associated risks to the banking sector), a fall in private demand and, in the extreme, a breakdown of government services. Fiscal risks emanating from litigation in U.S. courts (Sokolow vs. Palestine Liberation Organization) have receded until the PA’s appeal is decided. However, heightened risks concerning Israeli correspondent banking relationships could prove detrimental to the payments system and private economic activity (that has so far proved remarkably resilient).
Read more: https://www.imf.org/~/media/Files/Countries/ResRep/WBG/WBG040516.ashx
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The staggering economic cost of occupation: The Palestinian economy would be at least twice as large without Israeli occupation, UNCTAD report says
Source: United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD), 06 September 2016
Surveying a number of studies, the report reveals the channels through which occupation deprives the Palestinian people of their human right to development and hollows out the Palestinian economy.
Chief among these are the confiscation of Palestinian land, water and other natural resources; loss of policy space; restrictions on the movement of people and goods; destruction of assets and the productive base; expansion of Israeli settlements; fragmentation of domestic markets; separation from international markets and forced dependence on the Israeli economy.
Moreover, a continuous process of de-agriculturalization and de-industrialization has deformed the structure of the Palestinian economy, the report maintains. From 1975-2014, the share of the tradable goods sector (agriculture and industry) in GDP dropped by half, from 37 per cent to 18 per cent, while its contribution to employment decreased from 47 per cent to 23 per cent.
Area C, which accounts for more than 60 per cent of West Bank land and more than 66 per cent of its grazing land, is not accessible to Palestinian producers.
Occupied Palestinian Territory
It is estimated that the occupation of Area C costs the Palestinian economy the equivalent of 35 per cent of GDP ($4.4 billion in 2015).
Read more: http://unctad.org/en/pages/newsdetails.aspx?OriginalVersionID=1317
Response to Little Tich (Reply #18)
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geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Ethnonationalism is an enemy of democracy, as are theocratic practices such as granting the Orthodox rabbinate exclusive control over who may marry, convert, divorce or generally be recognized as being of the privileged religious class.
"Some are more equal than others" and "only some Jews are really Jews" is a pretty good combo for slouching towards being yet another retrograde Middle East theocracy.
branford
(4,462 posts)are openly and demonstrably worse than Israel in terms of "ethnonationalism" by multiple orders of magnitude, or do you hold Jews to a totally different standard? Israel is purportedly "slouching towards ethnonationalism," but the Arab world been there for centuries.
Moreover, if this purported ethnonationalism is such a great evil, why would Israel agree to what amounts to two violent, illiberal ethnonationalism states on its tiny borders?
Do you realize that appealing to vague notions of "democracy" and "liberalism" are actually arguments AGAINST concessions for a Palestinian state, at least given the current political, social and cultural state of the Palestinians.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The PA generally lacks principles and purpose but certainly lacks an enlightened or even modern outlook. Even as their primary function is to act as agents of Israel's security agencies.
However, the Palestinians are not going to progress and evolve while under occupation, certainly not under permanent occupation. There's really not any other agenda item other than overthrowing their oppressors as long as that is going on.
It's perfectly reasonable to state that a Palestinian state is not a workable short-term option.
The problem is that the Israelis have been using the settlements to suffocate and strangle the possibility of there ever being a Palestinian state much like a python squeezes the life out of its prey.
Of course the Palestinians hate the tribe occupying them and controlling every aspect of their lives. How did the Israelites feel about Pharaoh?
The entire Middle East is a giant shitshow. Israel is now part of that shitshow instead of offering an example of how to evolve past that dysfunction.
