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Fri Feb 28, 2020, 02:33 PM

In Bay Area, candid Israeli historian Benny Morris sounds off on genocide and politics

Israeli historian Benny Morris doesn’t write to please his audience. “I don’t care about hasbara,” he told J., using the Hebrew word for public-relations efforts to portray Israel in a positive light to the rest of the world. “People who want to defend this or that cause, they work in foreign ministries, they work in other places. I work on history.”

Morris, who has written or edited a dozen books, is considered one of Israel’s preeminent historians. His 2008 tome “1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War” earned him the National Jewish Book Award in history. Considered a revisionist, he is one of three so-called “New Historians” who emerged in the 1980s and became known for challenging accepted narratives about Israel’s founding.

In the 1980s, Morris used state archives and newly declassified materials to write “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem,” a seminal work that took aim at the falsehoods underlying both traditional Israeli and mainstream Arab versions of the 1948 war.

The documents he reviewed showed the 700,000 or so Arabs who had fled their homes during what they refer to as the “nakba,” or the catastrophe, “had not done so, by and large, on orders from” Palestinian or Arab leaders, or autonomously, as many Israelis were led to believe. Nor were they systematically expelled as part of a “master plan,” as many Palestinians were taught, he summarized in a piece for the Guardian in 2012.

https://www.jweekly.com/2020/02/24/in-bay-area-candid-israeli-historian-benny-morris-sounds-off-on-genocide-and-politics/

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Reply In Bay Area, candid Israeli historian Benny Morris sounds off on genocide and politics (Original post)
Mosby Feb 2020 OP
Israeli Mar 2020 #1
aranthus Mar 2020 #2
Israeli Mar 2020 #3
sabbat hunter Mar 2020 #4
Israeli Mar 2020 #5
sabbat hunter Mar 2020 #6
Israeli Mar 2020 #11
Israeli Mar 2020 #12
sabbat hunter Mar 2020 #15
Israeli Mar 2020 #18
sabbat hunter Mar 2020 #25
Israeli Mar 2020 #26
aranthus Mar 2020 #16
aranthus Mar 2020 #7
Israeli Mar 2020 #9
aranthus Mar 2020 #14
Israeli Mar 2020 #19
aranthus Mar 2020 #23
aranthus Mar 2020 #8
Israeli Mar 2020 #10
aranthus Mar 2020 #13
Israeli Mar 2020 #20
aranthus Mar 2020 #17
Israeli Mar 2020 #21
aranthus Mar 2020 #22
Israeli Mar 2020 #24

Response to Mosby (Original post)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 11:12 AM

1. Benny Morris.......

......you could not have chosen a bigger joke to us on the Left of Israeli politics Mosby …..well done

And here is what we think of him :

Before going into the details of the interview, one has to mention the interviewer. He is Benny Morris, the former "new historian", who in one easy jump has turned from the idol of the left into the darling of the right, redeeming himself from the stigma of being a "post-Zionist".

It was a clever choice on Barak's part. Morris conducts the interview as a sycophantic devotee, accepting unquestioningly Barak's most hair-raising statements (such as the above) and refraining from asking any embarrassing questions, obvious as they might appear.
Morris has been accused in the past of being a "revisionist" of Zionist history, because of his book revealing how the Palestinian refugees were driven out in 1948. It is rather hilarious to perceive how, in this interview, he freely levels the accusation of "revisionism" at anyone who dares to doubt Barak's assertions.

Barak does not expose himself to the questioning of a real, investigative journalist, like Deborah Sontag of The New York Times, nor does he confront an objective eye-witness, like Robert Malley, President Clinton's assistant at Camp David. These are two of the "revisionists" who evoked the ire of the Barak-Morris team, as well as that of Clinton, who - Barak recounts - called him in Sardinia to rave at Sontag's excellent and well-researched article about Camp David. "What the hell is this?" Clinton demanded, according to Barak.


Source :http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/archives_barak/

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Response to Israeli (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 09:07 PM

2. So what?

I get that you don't like him. I wouldn't expect that you would. How is he wrong? In particular, how is he wrong that the Palestinians don't want to share Palestine with the Jews (that means allowing a Jewish majority state in some part of Palestine). They continue to demand right of return, and how is that consistent with the continuance of a Jewish majority state?

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Response to aranthus (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 4, 2020, 05:30 PM

3. Oh I dont like him at all .....

…..met him a few times , he used to live on a kibbutz not far from mine .

I would suggest you go read up more on him …...try here for a start :

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/11/14/benny-morriss-untenable-denial-of-the-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestine/

“Morris, of course, is welcome to change his political view”, Klein continues. “But he, like any other historian, must understand that he has left a paper trail that tells a substantially different narrative than the one he now advocates. The Benny Morris of 2016 seems to be doing what he once accused the ‘old historians’ of doing—interpreting history and downplaying Israeli misdeeds in order to defend Israel’s legitimacy.”


That Benny Morris applies such a hypocritical standard should not be too surprising. He is, after all, himself a Zionist. As a historian, he has contributed greatly to the literature on the subject, and in so doing, has helped move the discussion forward. By helping us to understand the origins of the conflict, he has empowered us with knowledge that brings clarity on how to achieve a peaceful resolution. It is unfortunate that he’s lately made such a concerted effort to move the discussion backward again. It is in the context of his own deeply held and scarcely concealed prejudice toward the Palestinians that his attempts now to deny the ethnic cleansing of Palestine must be understood.


He is wrong …….wrong in his interpretation of history and wrong in his politics .

Do our Right wing want to share with the Palestinians ????

Im not interested in the " continuance of a Jewish majority state " …….Im a post Zionist ….Im interested in equality for all citizens , no matter their race religion culture creed gender or sexual preference .

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Response to Israeli (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 5, 2020, 08:18 PM

4. Jeremy Hammond

wants to wipe Israel off the map.

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Response to sabbat hunter (Reply #4)

Fri Mar 6, 2020, 07:27 AM

5. Does he ?

Would you care to prove that to me ??

Here is my problem …..I cannot post links or info in Hebrew from Israeli Left wing sites
because this is an international forum and tho you might be able to read Hebrew the
majority im sure cannot .
I cannot post links to Haaretz , IMHO the best English newspaper we still have , because
its subscription only .

I found that link on Haaretz in Hebrew and followed it .
Never heard of Jeremy Hammond before then .

I know my own people sabbat hunter and I know who Benny Morris is and what he stands for .

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Response to Israeli (Reply #5)

Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:09 PM

6. From his own website

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2019/03/15/why-israel-has-no-right-to-exist/



,
but it matters that the unilateral declaration by the Zionists on May 14, 1948, had no legitimacy

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Response to sabbat hunter (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 10:02 AM

11. I read it .....

….honestly cant see where he wants to wipe us off the map is legitimate .
Even if he did ,does , or whatever …...who cares ?
Like I said ….never heard of him before .
Nobody is going to wipe us off the map sabbat hunter...…..have some faith .

Have you ever asked yourself why the Joint List is now the third party ?

Hope this helps :

https://www.972mag.com/joint-list-palestinian-citizens-elections/

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Response to Israeli (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 10:50 AM

12. Waiting to see who howls first because its written by an Arab

…….so I give you one written by one of us :

The Israeli right has no clue how to deal with the Joint List’s surge

https://www.972mag.com/joint-list-israeli-right-elections/

The events of the past few days are not just about politics, however. They reveal a deeper question about Israeli society, and about the State of Israel since its founding: are Palestinian citizens part of the Israeli political community — its “demos” — or is the Israeli polity made up only of one national group, Jews? Is Israel really an ethnocracy, an ethnically-Jewish regime, while Palestinians are simply excess baggage who have no place in the country’s politics?

Much has been written on these questions, but one fact is hard to dispute: with the exception of the Yitzhak Rabin government in 1992, Palestinian parties have never been part of the governing coalition. The depth of opposition to Palestinian presence in government is illustrated by the fact that Blue and White felt compelled to announce it would not rely on the Joint List, following Netanyahu’s succinct — and accurate — slogan about Gantz not being able to form a government without Ahmad Tibi.


Nonetheless, we are dealing with a different situation here. The Palestinian public’s newfound political clout, expressed through the Joint List’s success, is starting to change the rules of the game, perhaps faster than we can imagine. If the law that would bring down Netanyahu’s government passes with the votes of Blue and White and Liberman on the one hand, and the Labor-Gesher-Meretz alliance and the Joint List on the other, it could be the first step toward a new political horizon.

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Response to Israeli (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 01:16 PM

15. I believe that

the Joint list for the first time includes Jews in their seats in Knesset.

Arab-Israelis form about 20% of the population of Israel. If the Joint list can continue to attract Jews to vote for it (as it did this past election), there will be no choice but to include them in a government.

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Response to sabbat hunter (Reply #15)

Tue Mar 10, 2020, 05:08 AM

18. Maybe sooner than you think ......

Gantz meets with Liberman, Joint List to discuss minority government

Blue & White, Yisrael Beytenu leaders devise guidelines for potential government and prevent fourth election; Gantz meets with Arab lawmakers, excluding Balad faction.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/Bknduk4rL

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Response to Israeli (Reply #18)

Wed Mar 11, 2020, 03:40 PM

25. What is the Balad faction?

What is Balad?

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Response to sabbat hunter (Reply #25)

Thu Mar 12, 2020, 04:40 PM

26. Seriously ....

you guys questions are getting more and more ridiculous …..
cant you Google ??

https://www.knesset.gov.il/faction/eng/FactionPage_eng.asp?PG=103

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Response to Israeli (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 04:26 PM

16. I would love to see Joint List in the government.

While I disagree that the only reason they are not is racism, I don't doubt that prejudice is a part of it. So is fear. I'm sure that Bibi is going around now telling potential defectors that if they don't join him, that Arabs will be in the government. I hope Bibi is right about that, and that prospective defectors tell him to stuff it.

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Response to sabbat hunter (Reply #4)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 11:09 AM

7. He's just another lying Leftist antisemite.

He says that people have a right to self-determination (which is the right to create and maintain a state), but then immediately denys that right to the Jews of Israel.

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Response to aranthus (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 08:55 AM

9. Oh please .....

Ref : " He's just another lying Leftist antisemite. "

That's you guys answer to everything .

Does that include Bernie Saunders ??

I give you the founder of Meretz in responce :

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=shulamit+alloni+we+are+an+insideous+people&view=detail&mid=D028EA28F1233C55F1A9D028EA28F1233C55F1A9&FORM=VIRE

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Response to Israeli (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:28 AM

14. Be honest.

Last edited Sun Mar 8, 2020, 04:27 PM - Edit history (1)

First, it isn't my answer to everything. Second, Bernie doesn't say the things that Hammond writes, so I don't say things like that about Bernie. The label fits Hammond for the reason I gave, which you ignored.

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Response to aranthus (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 10, 2020, 05:16 AM

19. I was actually reffering to this :

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1134136504

when I said you guys ……

There is nothing radical about Bernie Sanders’ views on Israel, yet the American Jewish establishment seems bent on portraying the Democratic frontrunner as an anti-Semite.

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Response to Israeli (Reply #19)

Tue Mar 10, 2020, 01:29 PM

23. As to Bernie.

I am not about to answer for "the American Jewish establishment," whatever or whoever that is. However, he does seem a little too close to people like Linda Sarsour, Rashida Tlaib, and Ilhan Omar, whom I do consider to be antisemitic.

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Response to Israeli (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 11:11 AM

8. Again so what?

The question was why is he wrong about the Palestinians not wanting to allow a Jewish majority state in any part of Palestine? It seems that your real answer is not that he's wrong, but rather that you don't care that he's right.

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Response to aranthus (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 09:21 AM

10. Nope .....

………..you don't seem to care that he is Right wing and that he is wrong .

My kibbutz was built upon a destroyed Palestinian village , you can still see the remains today .

Have you ever been here to see for yourself ??

For those that haven't , or cant or want to remain blind
I give you Zochrot :

https://www.zochrot.org/

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Response to Israeli (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:25 AM

13. Again, so what?

You still haven't answered the question. You stated that you aren't concerned about whether Israel remains a majority Jewish state. Therefore, you don't care about whether Morris is right about the Palestinians not wanting to allow a Jewish majority state, since you don't care if there is one or not.

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Response to aranthus (Reply #13)

Tue Mar 10, 2020, 05:32 AM

20. You didnt answer my question ....

which I believe came first ???

I care that there is a State of Israel aranthus , one that is for all of its citizens equally
whether they be Jewish or not …..and that BTW includes many of our citizens today
that are neither Jews or Arabs of which we have many .

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Response to Israeli (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 04:32 PM

17. Another question.

You say that you are a post-zionist, and that you are, "not interested in the 'continuance of a Jewish majority state '" I understand that post-zionists also favor right of return (at least I think that you do). In practical terms, what is the difference between post-zionist and anti-zionist? If the post-zionists get their way, it seems that you end up with a single Palestinian majority state, and that if the anti-zionists get their way, that you end up with the same thing. What is different about the end result between the two?

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Response to aranthus (Reply #17)

Tue Mar 10, 2020, 05:49 AM

21. I have been thru all this ....

………...many times in the past .

I suggest you research my previous posts on the subject .

In the meantime I give you where the term Post Zionist came into being
and why :

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1343412021

It happened this way: when my friends and I founded the Israeli Council for Israeli-Palestinian Peace in 1975, a right-wing organ called us “anti-Zionists”. I didn’t give a damn, but my co-founders insisted on suing them for libel.

Since I had published a book entitled “Israel Without Zionists” a few years earlier, I was called by the defendants as their star witness. They grilled me for many hours on the witness stand on what I meant by this title. In the end the judge asked me to define my attitude towards Zionism in simple words. On the spur of the moment I coined a new term: “Post-Zionism”.

Since then, the term has been expropriated as a synonym for anti-Zionism. But I used it quite literally. As I explained to the judge, my position is that Zionism was a historical movement with its glorious achievements as well as its darker side. One can admire or condemn it, but either way Zionism has come to its logical end with the creation of the State of Israel. Zionism was the scaffolding that made the building of the state possible, but once the house is built, the scaffolding becomes a hindrance and must be removed.
So the judge decided that I am not an anti-Zionist. She ordered the defendants to pay us hefty compensation, which helped us to finance our activities.

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Response to Israeli (Reply #21)

Tue Mar 10, 2020, 01:25 PM

22. I figured you wouldn't answer the question, but I wanted to give you a chance.

You know your posts far better than I could, and I'm not going to waste my time searching through them for something that probably isn't there. I asked a very specific question that I don't remember you ever having answered. What is the practical difference between your version of post-zionism and anti-zionism? Your cite doesn't answer that question. It does point out one of the problems with post-zionism. Post-zionism falsely describes zionism as a movement. While there is a Zionist movement, zionism is an idea. Specifically it is the idea that there should be a Jewish majority state in all or some of ancient Israel. Now the creation of modern Israel may mean that the Zionist movement has achieved its goal, but the idea remains. So the premise of post-zionism is false.

None of which even begins to answer my question as to your position about the end result of your beliefs. Again, it appears that your end result is a Palestinian Arab majority state in Israel/West Bank/Gaza. Yes or no?

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Response to aranthus (Reply #22)

Tue Mar 10, 2020, 05:51 PM

24. And I figured you would not answer mine

…….mine came first tho

You may think its a false premise but to those of us that live here its anything but .

A resounding NO to your last question .
You really do not understand us at all .

Try here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Zionism

In contrast to political Zionism's goal of the Jewish state, many post-Zionists advocate the evolution of Israel into a non-ideological, secular, liberal democratic state, to be officially neither Jewish nor Arab in character.

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