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Sat Mar 7, 2020, 04:00 PM

Is this a safe place for this topic?

Last edited Sat Mar 7, 2020, 05:08 PM - Edit history (1)

I have not figured out a way to condemn Israel's treatment of the Palestinians without getting labelled anti-Semitic.

I believe that Israel has the right to defend itself against any foreign power that seeks its destruction. I accept the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons, while we don't want other Middle Eastern countries to have them. I think it's wrong, but I accept it.

But the way that Israel and Israelis treat Palestinians is often morally wrong, sometimes oppressive, sometimes inhumane. How does one say "yes" to a Jewish state and "no" to Palestinian oppression?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

When Trump announced that he would move the embassy, it was obvious that he was going after the Jewish vote. I don't know how well it worked, but he has some supporters in Orthodox communities, even though he's anti-Semitic. Now Biden is claiming to be a Zionist. Going after the Jewish vote.

Sometimes it seems as though championing the Palestinians is political suicide. Even if it's the right thing to do.

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Arrow 13 replies Author Time Post
Reply Is this a safe place for this topic? (Original post)
qwlauren35 Mar 2020 OP
elleng Mar 2020 #1
qwlauren35 Mar 2020 #2
elleng Mar 2020 #4
Mosby Mar 2020 #3
qwlauren35 Mar 2020 #5
abqtommy Mar 2020 #8
brush Mar 2020 #6
Mosby Mar 2020 #7
sabbat hunter Mar 2020 #9
Mosby Mar 2020 #10
aranthus Mar 2020 #11
DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2020 #12
aranthus Mar 2020 #13

Response to qwlauren35 (Original post)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 04:07 PM

1. Safe for me, qwlauren35,

but my family/tribe members and I don't always agree.

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Response to elleng (Reply #1)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 04:18 PM

2. I hope we can discuss.

I have a rabidly pro-Farrakhan cousin who is so anti-Israel it makes my head spin. He has been throwing this at me for months, and I finally decided to read up on it.

The Israeli-Palestinian situation is extremely ugly. And most Americans have no idea. Heck, most Americans don't know much about anything that happens in the rest of the world.

But while I find that there are some Americans who are pro-Israel, and some Americans who are anti-Semitic, there doesn't seem to be a space for simply being pro-Palestinian.

I have always believed that the Palestinians got screwed. And that no one sticks up for them. I hate this, but don't know what to do about it. Oh, and I don't think other Middle Eastern countries are "sticking up for Palestine" by hating Israel and wanting to destroy it.

Who champions the Palestinians?

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Response to qwlauren35 (Reply #2)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 04:24 PM

4. Some do, often;

will try to name them, when I see one.

And I do, have done so often, as well as my Pakistani friend (U.S. citizen for 50+ years, studied in Utah, lived in Brooklyn, now in DC suburb, active in U-U 'church.')

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Response to qwlauren35 (Original post)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 04:21 PM

3. Your understanding of the history surrounding the issue is way off.

Jews have been living in and around israel for more than 3200 years, it's their ancestral homeland, not someplace they were dumped by european countries. By the time the arab armies arrived and conquered the entire region, the Jewish people had been living there for more than 1800 years.

I don't really expect you to change your thinking in a blink of an eye but just consider how different the history of the conflict is presented in the journal article linked below compared to your summary in the op.

https://jcpa.org/article/deconstructing-the-three-stages-of-the-nakba-myth/

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Response to Mosby (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 05:06 PM

5. OK, I read the article.

It was pretty in-depth. I only grasped a few things.

- "oh, the poor Palestinians!" is something that evolved around 1967 (aggressors become victims)
- the area where the Palestinians now are has been fought over and appropriated by different people for centuries.
- the Jews who arrived in the 1940's were not the first migration of Jews into the land around Jerusalem. And some Jews were always there.
- the Arab states in the Middle East did a "Jewish purge" in the beginning of the 20th century
-

Now, with all of that said, I think it is still accurate that Israel has come up with some laws that are unfavorable to Palestinians, there is prejudice against Palestinians in Israel, there is discrimination in the workforce against Palestinians, there is some physical segregation.

So, I will never again suggest that the history of that region can be described in a single, simple paragraph of "bad Israeli's displaced poor Palestinians", but it does not justify some of the laws and behaviors going on today.

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Response to qwlauren35 (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 07:03 PM

8. History is very revealing but the conditions today tell the story. One thing to consider is

who is calling who anti-semitic? Then choose your best course of action.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 06:07 PM

6. Weren't arabs always there too?

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Response to brush (Reply #6)

Sat Mar 7, 2020, 06:25 PM

7. No, the Arabs originated in the Arabian peninsula

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Response to Mosby (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 01:03 PM

9. there were however

always non Jews living in the area. It is an area that was constantly invaded, migrated to, due to its location, fairly fertile areas, etc.
Even before the explosion of Arabs/Islam out of Arabia in the 800s, there were likely Arabs that lived in the area due to natural migration, as it was a better place to live than most of Arabia, closer to major trade routes, etc.
We have to keep in mind it was always a shared area. Judea/kingdom of Judah (and prior to that the united kingdom of Israel) was never as powerful as the jewish bible likes to make it seem like it was. It was more like a loose confederation of tribes that was able to come together due to periods of weakness of surrounding nations.

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Response to sabbat hunter (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 01:26 PM

10. Sure, and if there were canaanites today...

Last edited Sun Mar 8, 2020, 02:51 PM - Edit history (2)

they could legitimately lay claim to their homeland, but they assimilated/disappeared like most other ME groups.

To be clear, I don't think there is a specific date for indigenity.

So Palestinian Arabs are indigenous as well, but their national identity didn't coalesce until the 1960s.

Eta some interesting research on canaanites that came out a couple years ago:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170727122039.htm

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Response to Mosby (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 8, 2020, 04:16 PM

11. Jews are also descended from the Canaanites, as are Samaritans.

The Canaanites were a group of tribes that included Phoenicians, Edomites, Ammonites, and Hebrews. The Phoenicians are the ancestors of some Lebanese that are discussed in the article you posted. The Canaanites south of Lebanon and west of the Jordan River also did not disappear. The Hebrews united them into the Israelites, which then became the Jews. Hebrew is the last living Canaanite language.

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Response to qwlauren35 (Original post)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 04:26 PM

12. It would be nice to recognize the aspirations of both the Israelis and Palestinians.

And to understand why Jews want a haven and Palestinians want a home.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #12)

Mon Mar 9, 2020, 09:10 PM

13. True.

I think if you really looked into it, that you would find that a higher percentage of pro-Israel people also recognize the aspirations of Palestinians than the other way around.

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