Eli Yishai: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."

[Lars77]

7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505


Well at least someone in the Israeli administration admits it, although there is nothing like a good war to win an election.

[marybourg]

1. Maybe we could just send them some Republicans

to run their government. They'll be in the middle ages in a jiffy.

[LeftishBrit]

23. Unfortunately they have them already.

Hamas is pretty much the Arabic for Tea Party.

As for Eli Yishai, he too knows all about living in the Middle Ages!

[bemildred]

2. That's what was said about OCL I, it's not been four years yet. nt

[hrmjustin]

3. I would say he should resign, but that won't happen.

I see that they have not started to ground campaign. Maybe they won't do it, and they are trying to just scare Hamas.

[Lars77]

4. Realigious nutjobs are happy to die, i dont think Hamas are scared.

The more bloodshed, the more people will join them. And the ones who die go to heaven. Win-win!

It's the normal people i feel sick about un both sides. Progressive Israelis are victims of both a far, far right administration curbing their right to protest and Hamas rockets.

[hrmjustin]

5. The whole thing is sad all around. Bombs falling all over the place and killing people is just

madness.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

25. I agree.

[Scootaloo]

24. And yet I don't see Grand Ayatollah Yishai there on the front lines

Maybe he'll tell us how IDF soldiers killed in this operation deserved to die for "not being faithful enough," like he did in the 2006 war against Lebanon.

The real religious nutjobs tend to stay safe at home.

[Lars77]

69. The politicians too :(

[oberliner]

6. What's Hamas's goal?

Any statement from their side you can share?

[Lars77]

7. Hamas wants to destroy Israel, no need to check.

You ok with Israel being at their level?

[Mosby]

10. is israel indiscriminately firing missles into Gaza?

How are the actions of both sides at all comparable?

[hrmjustin]

12. I agree that Israel takes more care, but as of now 42 Palestinians are dead. 3 Israelis are dead.

The Palestinians always get the shaft in these fights. I understand your point on Hamas, and Israel's need to defend itself. But Palestinians always get the shaft in the end.

[Mosby]

16. I understand your point as well

I wish to God that the Palestinians had better leadership and that Israel had a more liberal government.

I support a two state solution but have no idea anymore how this can be initiated.

[aquart]

33. Yes. Pity they aren't welcome anywhere on the planet.

One or twenty bus bombings and nobody trusts you to live next door.

[hrmjustin]

38. They are flesh and blood like us all.

[hrmjustin]

48. That is a horrible thing to say. They are not all terrorists.

[hrmjustin]

53. I know we were not getting along for a few posts but I did not alert on you for the post below.

[Scootaloo]

55. I'm surprised it got hidden

The Three Stooges usually protect comments like that.

Wasn't me, either though... I was hoping for answers to my questions downthread.

[hrmjustin]

57. I was too. He was interesting to chat with even though he called me sleazy.

[Lars77]

14. I don't just mean during this war, collective punishment has been going on for a long time

Like cutting off the power supply to the entire place, denying Gazans the means to produce goods themselves. It's been an economic war for a long time, now it's a real war.

But i do believe that Israel genuinely does not care. I think the quote in the OP pretty much says it all.
Numbers vary, some media talk about 300 attacks on Gaza just today. You think they were all surgical strikes at Hamas?

[hrmjustin]

17. I heard something about that they control the water supply to either the West Bank and/or Gaza.

Is that true or is that bunk?

[azurnoir]

26. it's very true in the West Bank however any water Gaza was getting via Israel

stopped in 2005 when Israel removed its settlers

[hrmjustin]

28. That really sucks. How the hell do they get water in gaza.

[aquart]

35. Please supply your statistics of Palestinians dead from thirst.

I'm sure they will be very moving.

[hrmjustin]

37. Come again?

I asked about question on water supply not deaths.

[aquart]

47. No, you got called on a sleazy insinuation.

Have the grace to own it.

[hrmjustin]

49. I asked is it true that they control the water supply to them. That is not a sleazy question.

[azurnoir]

54. Water crisis will make Gaza strip 'unliveable'

Water for the 1.6 million people – half of them children and two-thirds refugees – who live in just 365 sq km of land bordering the Mediterranean comes entirely from the shallow coastal aquifer shared between Gaza, Israel and Egypt, which is only partly replenished each year by rainfall. Decades of overpumping and heavy pollution from salts and waste water has left the aquifer highly degraded and in danger of irreparable damage.

UN hydrologists say no more than 55 million cubic metres (mcm) of water should be abstracted a year, but present exploitation rates run at around 160mcm. If this continues, says the UN, it could result in the water table dropping to a point where massive sea water intrusion permanently destroys the source within a few years.

In addition, the little water available is heavily polluted by nitrates from uncontrolled sewage, and fertilisers from farmlands, making 90% of the water unfit for human consumption. With the Gaza population expected to increase by 500,000 within eight years, and nearly 25% of all illnesses in Gaza water-related, the urgency for countries to put aside differences and address the issue is growing.

"The aquifer could become unusable as early as 2016, with the damage irreversible by 2020. UNEP [the UN Environment Programme] recommends ceasing abstraction immediately as it would otherwise take centuries for the aquifer to recover. Even with remedial action now to cease abstraction, the aquifer will take decades to recover," said a UN Relief and Works Agency report published this week.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/aug/30/water-crisis-gaza

[hrmjustin]

56. Thanks for the info.

[bemildred]

8. Rocket strikes on Israel, influx of foreign leaders during Gaza offensive a boost to Hamas

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel's new offensive against the Gaza Strip has turned into a political bonanza for the territory's Hamas rulers, while sidelining Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, their Western-backed rival in the West Bank.

Gazans feeling unfairly attacked by Israel have been watching with gleeful pride as Hamas militants fire rockets deeper than ever into Israel and Arab leaders flock to previously isolated Gaza to show solidarity. Growing collateral damage from Israel's massive aerial bombardments of Hamas targets does not appear to have hurt the Islamists' sudden popularity.

Saed Moaserji, a 19-year-old engineering student from Gaza's Jebaliya refugee camp, said he felt intense pride after Hamas rocket squads for the first time this week targeted Jerusalem.

"I never liked Hamas, but I wished I could kiss the forehead of the one who fired the rocket on Jerusalem," Moaserji said Saturday, standing outside a local Hamas commander's two-story home that had just been flattened in an airstrike.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/17/rocket-strikes-on-israel-influx-foreign-leaders-during-gaza-offensive-boost-to/

[Lars77]

9. The Israeli policy of collective punishment seems to work really well

At least if you are a far right semi-fascist with an election to win.

[Mosby]

11. firing missles into israel is collective punishment

And a war crime.

Not that hamas gives a shit.

[hrmjustin]

13. Do you think there will be a ground war?

[Mosby]

18. not likely.

I think the callups are mostly just for show.

It takes a lot of planning for a ground op in gaza, especially now after OCL. Its possible that they might bring some units just into Gaza but not really engage hamas on the ground in any significant way.

[hrmjustin]

19. That is the way I see too.

[Lars77]

15. Like i asked Oberliner...

Are you OK with Israel behaving exactly like Hamas?

[Mosby]

20. absolutely not

And I don't have any reason to think that they are.

AFAIK the Israelis are being as careful as they can be to limit civilian casulties.

[Lars77]

21. Well that's where we have a difference of opinion.

[azurnoir]

27. yes that is obvious that's why at this hour only 50 Palestinians

have been killed by IDF since Wednesday

[TomClash]

71. More than the number of people killed by Hamas rockets from Gaza since 2004

But it was all "unintentional."

[Scootaloo]

32. No, they're not.

"Being as careful as you can be to limit civilian casualties" would of course, utterly preclude bombing a city. Bombs are indiscriminate weapons. Cities are densely populated. When you combine the two, plenty of civilians are going to die. Israeli bombs are not magical devices that ignore non-targets, any more than anyone else's bombs are.

While I hardly think Israel is twirling some sort of villain moustache and plotting the deaths of Gazans... I do think they are indifferent to the losses sustained by the people of Gaza. Dropping the bombs is the priority, all else is secondary at best.

[aquart]

36. Indifferent? Or hate their guts?

These people HATE EACH OTHER. Neither will admit humanity to the other side.

[Scootaloo]

39. I think that's hyperbole concocted by Americans to justify our own apathy and inaction

Of course there's dead cats of hate being swung by both sides. But I don't believe it to be all-consuming for either side, nor do I think it is permanant and indelible.

The "They've been fighting forever. They hate each other. Oh well, nothing we can do, so no reason to bother" argument is something we conjure up to protect ourselves from our own conscience. Using this argument allows us the privilige of remaining indifferent to human loss. You saw it in response (or rather, non-response) to Rwanda. It was there during the breakup of Yugoslavia. it exists when we look at our own inner cities. "Oh well, it's always been like that. we might as well not even think about it."

I find that wholly unacceptable.

[aquart]

43. So did Bill Clinton. He brokered a very nice Irish peace.

And Irish hatred is a shiny, enduring object.

[hrmjustin]

44. What do you think should happen in the ME?

[Scootaloo]

52. Now there's a tar pit of a topic

[bemildred]

61. "Peace".

Always a safe answer.

[Scootaloo]

62. Also a vapid non-answer

I try to not answer questions with quotations from beauty pageant contestants, if I can avoid it.

[bemildred]

63. OK, I won't make that mistake again. nt

[Scootaloo]

66. The thing is, it's a process

Saying "I want peace" is sort of like looking at a field of grass and saying, "I could go for a loaf of bread right now."

Peace doesn't "happen," it doesn't fall from the sky (in fact things falling from the sky is usually the exact opposite.) It's the outcome of many decisions and maneuvers, and is a hell of a lot more complex than strife - punching someone in the mouth is much easier than getting them to forgive you for it.

I read the question as, "what should happen in the middle east to achieve peace" - that peace was already the implied outcome, and the question was "how to get there." And it's a damn big question, especially since it was asked about the Middle East... outlining what it would take for peace in just one of those nations alone would take me hours, even assuming I had the material on hand to research and think on it.

Sorry if i came off brusque there, I wasn't meaning to cut you down or anything.

[aquart]

31. Ooh, solidarity.

Which translates to exactly what in terms of practical aid?

HAS EGYPT OPENED THE GATE? Have they organized convoys of women and children to safety in Egypt? Get back to me with the numbers.

Because if Israel has a problem with the Palestinians, what do you think they are to Egypt? BFFs?

[Scootaloo]

34. I'm curious...

Say Egypt DOES open the Rafah crossing right now. How fast would the narrative for that turn into "MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD ALLOWING HAMAS TO SEEK REFUGE IN SINAI!"

How fast would that narrative become a drumbeat to advocate Israel "expanding its operations"?

I imagine questions similar to this might be what's going through the heads of Morsi's cabinet.

[aquart]

40. Ah. Israel the mighty monster mythology.

Yah. Only weak nations respond to assault with instant disproportionate overwhelming force. Strong ones have other options. International Relations 101 from the Poli Sci department of most colleges.

You may have gotten confused because GW Bush always responded as if the US were a very weak nation.

How do you imagine Israel would seize control of Egypt? And hold it? Use the bomb?

Eight million people can easily overwhelm EIGHTY-FIVE MILLION. Just use those wily Jewish brains.

That's right. Israel has the population of New York City, another great military power.

God save us all from the credulous.

[Scootaloo]

41. I see you choose to not respond to what I actually wrote. I'll try again.

if Egypt did order the Rafah border crossing, as you seemed to be suggesting they should do, how quickly do you think the narrative for it would become "MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD ALLOWS HAMAS TO SEEK SANCTUARY IN SINAI!"

After that narrative starts, how long before it is used to call for Israel to "expand its operation"?

[aquart]

45. You really need a nice international almanac.

For getting a clue about the nations you're discussing.

EGYPT, POPULATION 85 MILLION.

ISRAEL, POPULATION 8 MILLION.

Start from there. Use basic arithmetic and common sense.

As opposed to hate-mongering hysteria.

[Scootaloo]

51. I think you're very confused.

Run it by me again, what is it that you think I'm saying?

[aquart]

42. So Morsi is more interested in the next election than saving Palestinian lives?

Wouldn't surprise me. Nightmare scenario for Egypt? Israel throws up its hands and says "I've had it! YOU take them. You used to own Gaza.TAKE IT BACK!"

What would Egypt do to avoid that, I wonder?

[Scootaloo]

50. Again, a non-answer.

You came here expecting to just deliver some inane zinger about how awful Arabs are to the Palestinians, didn't you? You really should take better notes before the test, Aquart. Here, I'll give you a review.

Here's the thing. Israel and Egypt are at peace. It's Kind of A Big Deal, all things considered. Part of this peace relies on Egypt sometimes acting in the interests of Israel's security concerns. The border Egypt shares with Gaza is often the exact point where this manifests. This is why the Egyptians are putting in an underground wall, to deter smugglers from building tunnels beneath the border, for isntance

Now as we're vividly aware, Israel is currently bombing Gaza, in an operation against Hamas, right?

Something else you might be aware of; Egypt's leading party, the Muslim Brotherhood, shares historic ties with Hamas; they've diverged quite a bit since the 80's, but Hamas started out as a branch of the Brotherhood in the early 1980's (I'll spare you all the historical detail, it's not particularly relevant.)

Some sources in the media have used this connection to create speculation that Egypt is now an enemy of Israel, that it's going to attack any day now, yadda yadda yadda, shit that isn't likely to happen (After all, that treaty is working out pretty well for both sides)

So. Say the Egyptian government DOES open the border with Gaza right now, while Israel is attacking. How fast would it be before say... Fox or CNN pick up the narrative of "Egypt allowing Hamas to escape"? After that, how quickly before the usual talking heads are saying Israel should bomb the Sinai in retaliation or something?

even if Israel does not do so, the perception that "the Muslim Brotherhood is granting asylum to Hamas" would still damage relations between the two nations, true or not.

And US aid to Egypt - not an inconsiderable sum - hinges on whether the US feels that Egypt is living up to its side of the deal.

Opening the border is the ethically right, but politically disastrous thing to do... Not because it would cost Morsi an election (probably the opposite in fact) but because it could very well cost egypt its American allies and its shell of peace with Israel.

Welcome to international diplomacy, Aquart. I hope you took notes this time.

[bemildred]

60. I was just offering that as an answer to the "What's Hamas' goal?" question.

I'd say in a more general way, Hamas goal is to not be ignored, to not be ignorable, to stay relevant and in control of their little piece of territory. They clearly offer no credible military threat to Israel as things stand, all they can do is make noise and cause damage (though I suppose with the longer range rockets, some more interesting targets will come in range).

Israel's problem with Hamas, in some respects, its that they are so weak. Remember, Israel left the strip because it was too much trouble, not because anybody kicked them out militarily. So, it's still too much trouble, and they know as well as you do that nobody else wants to run the place, so the threat to re-occupy is empty, and they haven't got much else to lose.

Martin van Creveld did a nice piece on the asymetry of the military situation and its consequences ten years back, I think it would stand up nicely still today.

Ah, here, this will do:

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s511530.htm

Byrne: Thanks for joining us tonight on Foreign Correspondent. How has it come to this, Martin... how is it that the mighty Israeli army – one of the world’s most powerful - with its helicopter gunships, with its tanks, with it’s missiles, can be losing to this relatively small, relatively under-armed if fanatical group of Palestinians?

Van Creveld: The same thing has happened to the Israeli army as happened to all the rest that have tried over the last sixty years. Basically it’s always a question of the relationship of forces. If you are strong, and you are fighting the weak for any period of time, you are going to become weak yourself. If you behave like a coward then you are going to become cowardly – it’s only a question of time. The same happened to the British when they were here... the same happened to the French in Algeria... the same happened to the Americans in Vietnam... the same happened to the Soviets in Afghanistan... the same happened to so many people that I can’t even count them.

Byrne: : Martin you used the word ‘cowardly’ yet what we’ve seen tonight – these commando units, the anti-terrorist squads – these aren’t cowardly people.

Van Creveld: I agree with you. They are very brave people... they are idealists... they want to serve their country and they want to prove themselves. The problem is that you cannot prove yourself against someone who is much weaker than yourself. They are in a lose/lose situation. If you are strong and fighting the weak, then if you kill your opponent then you are a scoundrel... if you let him kill you, then you are an idiot. So here is a dilemma which others have suffered before us, and for which as far as I can see there is simply no escape. Now the Israeli army has not by any means been the worst of the lot. It has not done what for instance the Americans did in Vietnam... it did not use napalm, it did not kill millions of people. So everything is relative, but by definition, to return to what I said earlier, if you are strong and you are fighting the weak, then anything you do is criminal.

Byrne: : You are a military historian, but let’s face it the Prime Minister was a general... how could General Sharon – Prime Minister Sharon – be getting it so wrong, by your analysis?

Van Creveld: It’s not a question of personalities, it’s a question of the balance of forces. I’ll use a metaphor that I’ll take from Lao-tzu – the Chinese sage who lived about 2,400 years ago – ‘a sword put into salt water will rust’ – it is only a question of time. And this is happening to the Israeli army and to the Israeli society, almost regardless of who is leading it.

Byrne: : Are they losing, or have they lost, in your opinion?

Van Creveld: No they have not yet lost, but they are as far as I can see, well on the way to losing, which is why Israel over the last few weeks has been positively begging the Palestinians for a ceasefire. We have arrived at the point where, if you will, like Johnson in Vietnam, we are constantly asking the other side for a ceasefire, and the other side either will or will not respond as it pleases him – the reason being of course that they have so much less to lose.

Byrne: : The reason being also, in a sense, that it’s what isn’t about, isn’t it? A ceasefire would provide security for the Israelis, which is what they want, but it would not provide statehood for the Palestinians, which is what they want.

Van Creveld: Exactly. The other side will definitely not have a ceasefire without some considerable political achievement. If I were Arafat and the Palestinians, I would not put an end to this intafada, because the way I see it, from the first day of the first intafada they have been winning.

Or as I have put it: what are you going to do with all those people?

[bemildred]

65. Netanyahu says Israel will agree to ceasefire

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014309265

[bemildred]

67. Gaza leader: Hamas will accept truce only if Israel guarantees no more attacks

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-leader-hamas-will-accept-truce-only-if-israel-guarantees-no-more-attacks.premium-1.478747

[bemildred]

68. Israeli Ambassador Deletes Tweet Signaling Willingness To Sit Down With Hamas (Blames Staffer)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014309245

[libodem]

22. The threat of being bombed back into the stone age

Last edited Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:29 AM - Edit history (1)

Is real.

[azurnoir]

29. treat? did you mean threat? n/t

[libodem]

58. yep

I did. Tiny little. Key board on a phone. I muff it up all the time. One finger typing and it's numb half the time.

[aquart]

30. That is the saddest fantasy.

I expect it will only make the problems worse, like vote suppression did here.

[loudsue]

59. Is that a legitimate publication? n/t

[Scootaloo]

64. What, Haaretz? Yeah

And yeah, Grand Ayatollah Yishai is exactly as fucked-up as he sounds here.

[DeSwiss]

70. K&R

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.