Where is condemnation of Hamas terror?

[shira]

I'm angry that the world notices only when Israel undertakes its most basic sovereign right to defend its citizens. Can you imagine if even one rocket were fired on Washington, London, Moscow or Sydney? No nation on earth can, or should, tolerate such attacks on its people. I'm angry that while the UN never hesitates to pass the umpteenth resolution blindly condemning Israel, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was unable to unequivocally condemn the Palestinian rocket attacks without implying a moral equivalence between Israel taking defensive action against the terror attacks and Hamas deliberately targeting innocent civilians.

-----

I'm angry that ships and flotillas continue to set sail for Gaza to show "solidarity" with the Palestinians but ask where is their solidarity with the people of southern Israel? I'm angry that while human rights organisations such as Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, Oxfam and others do not waste a single opportunity to condemn Israel for human rights violations against the Palestinians, the human rights of Israelis are seemingly not important enough for them. Is Jewish blood really that cheap?

I'm angry that mainstream newspapers such as The Sydney Morning Herald, lead their stories about the rocket attacks with such headlines as "Israel warns it will intensify conflict after Gaza strikes", and not "Terrorists in Gaza intensify conflict after raining down 700 rockets in four days against 4.5 million Israelis". I'm even angrier that some news agencies choose not to cover this story at all or bury it down with the weather section.

---

I'm angry when people continue to say that "settlements" are the main impediment to peace, and not Hamas, a terrorist group that does not recognise Israel's right to exist and seeks its destruction. I'm angry that schools in southern Israel have now been closed for an entire week because of the rocket attacks, while countless children have barely known a day of peace in their lives, running from one bomb shelter to another. What sort of inhumane way is this for a child to grow up?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/where-is-condemnation-of-hamas-terror/story-e6frgd0x-1226519129661

[teddy51]

1. And just how do you see this as defence?

"GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — An Israeli missile flattened a two-story house in a residential neighborhood of Gaza City on Sunday, killing at least 11 civilians, medical officials said, as Israel expanded its targets of its offensive to target homes of wanted militants."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014309650

[shira]

14. Still no condemnation of Hamas. Where were you the past year....

...when Hamas shot about 1000 rockets into Israel?

[teddy51]

22. You defenders of Israel are good at throwing smoke screens up,

But you never answered the question.

[shira]

23. And....still no condemnation.

My answer is, of course, that Israel has no choice whatsoever. Close to 1000 rockets over the past year. The IDF proved 4 years ago that when they have to go to war, they're more careful with civilians than any other military in the history of warfare.

Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media.[39]

The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to-one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed. That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three to one. In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia. In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one.”[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_War

Now how do you defend not condemning Hamas for attempted mass murder vs. Israelis? Or actively victimizing their own population (human shields, child militants, rockets hitting their own people) in order to score PR points in a cognitive war?

[leveymg]

29. I suspect you two are going to stay angry and frustrated for a long, long time to come. eom

[subsuelo]

72. "we have no choice"

is the battlecry of all terrorist organizations

[shira]

122. Defending against terrorism isn't terrorism...

Seems your preference is for Israelis to just lie back and enjoy Hamas firing hundreds to thousands of rockets at will.

The moral high ground indeed.

[subsuelo]

150. That is the same logic as Hamas, of course

But don't let that dissuade you from convincing yourself that killing children is ok

[shira]

160. So in response to Hamas' rockets, Israel should.......?

This is where you fill in the blank.

a) lie back and enjoy
b) take it because they deserve those rockets
c) surrender to Hamas
d) other

[subsuelo]

197. Do you justify using the same logic as Hamas? n/t

[shira]

198. Hamas doesn't defend. Israel's existence is the problem to them.

So again, what should Israel do as a response to thousands of rockets?

Face it, your answer is worse. It's so bad, you're ashamed to write anything in response to that question.

[subsuelo]

201. Again, you use the same logic as Hamas

They say "what should we do as a response to x y and z things they have done to us"

It is exactly the same argument you make.

I'm just trying to help you see this, that's all.

[shira]

205. And you're arguing Israel has no choice but to enjoy those rockets...

...since Israel apparently has no right to defend its civilians in any reasonable way.

I'm just trying to help you see how much worse your position is than the one you're attacking.

[subsuelo]

208. Wrong. The one and only argument I have made here ...

Is that your logic is the same as Hamas.

[shira]

210. Wrong. You're against Israel's operation to attack Hamas.

So what should Israel do?

If your solution isn't worse than what Israel's doing (like doing nothing but taking it) why not share your opinion?

[subsuelo]

213. No, not wrong. It is the same logic as Hamas

That's all I have said here so far.

I have made no argument as to the rightness or wrongness of it.

It's just an observation.

Hamas says "what should we do as a response to x y and z things they have done to us"

Then Israel says "what should we do as a response to x y and z things they have done"

Then Hamas says "see what they did to us, now we must do this to them"

Then Israel says "see what they did to us, now we must do this to them"

Then Hamas says "now we must make them pay"

Then Israel says "now we must make them pay"

Then they say "they started it now we must end it"

Then Israel says "they started it now we must end it"

Then Hamas says "how else should we respond to x y and z things they have done to us"

Then Israel says "how else should we respond to x y and z things they have done to us"

It is always EXACTLY the same logic used by the leadership on both sides. Which strikes me as exactly why this conflict and killings are never ending.

[Ken Burch]

77. It isn't attempted mass murder.

It's wrong for Hamas to do this...and it's equally wrong for Israel to keep Gazans locked in their own country(with Egypt cooperating in this lockdown because of Israeli pressure). Without that lockdown, it's hard to see that the rocket strikes would still be happening.

I condemn both sides. That's enough.

[oberliner]

92. Can you possibly believe what you've typed here?

Specifically:

"Without that lockdown, it's hard to see that the rocket strikes would still be happening..."

Do you know what was going on when there wasn't any kind of "lockdown" ?

It wasn't all that long ao.

[Ken Burch]

94. There never WASN'T a lockdown.

Last edited Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:48 PM - Edit history (1)

There was no period after the Israeli withdrawal in which Gazans were free to come and go as they wished, were in control of their own airspace(if you don't control that you have no sovereignty at all)or were allowed unhindered delivery of relief supplies from outside.

Even Gazan fishermen(a group that are as innocent of wrongdoing as anybody)have been restricted to being allowed to fish only THREE MILES offshore-instead of the twenty miles offshore they were supposed to be allowed-a restriction that has made it impossible to catch any significant number of fish.

They were never given a moment, not a moment at all, to run the place on their own terms.

The rockets are wrong...but the rockets don't justify doing ALL OF THE ABOVE to the people of Gaza. It's the Gazans who've always been the major victims of this.

If nothing else...Israel COULD allow Gazans to move to the West Bank if they are willing to declare their opposition to Hamas. There's never been a justification for forbidding them to do that, OR for insisting that the only leave via Egypt-you can't assume that ALL Gazans are terrorists, for God's sake.

[shira]

123. Of course it is! They're trying to kill as many as possible each time...

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:10 AM - Edit history (1)

They boast about it and celebrate when those rockets or suicide bombers get the job done.

It's no wonder the best you have is "I disagree with Hamas". You clearly don't have THAT big an issue with them.

====

And FTR, those saying they condemn Hamas haven't had much to say about Hamas at all in the last year and weeks leading up to Israel's response. 1000 rockets in the last year and hardly a peep!

Not to mention no condemnation of Hamas using kids as human shields and militants. Or victimizing women, gays, and christians along with the children.

Nothing.

Apparently Israel is just as bad as that, and saying so is condemnation enough!

[JoDog]

136. In addition,

Hamas and the old PLO have always been clear about what their endgame is: The complete destruction of Israel and the Israeli people. One need only look at the classes taught in schools in Arab-controlled areas. The history books refuse to even acknowledge that Israel exists.

[azurnoir]

155. you mean the PLO our government supports and funds the one that will soon

see a Palestinian state upgraded at the UN? that PLO?

[kayecy]

138. Rubbish...Let's get things into proportion......

Israel is killing far more civilians than Hamas has ever done.

1,000 rockets in the last year caused how many Israeli deaths?...... Israel is much more succesful at terrorizing civilians than Hamas.

Let's get things into proportion.....Israelis are in more danger every day as they drive to work than they are from Hamas rockets.

[shira]

162. Without Iron Dome and all the bunkers, thousands of Israelis would be dead....

...due to those rockets. Far more than Palestinians who have been killed thus far.

Meanwhile, Israel has dropped at least 1000 bombs in Gaza over the past week with casualties under 100, which is in line with the fact (according to civilian:combatant ratios) that they're more careful WRT civilian lives than any other military in the history of combat. Even the 1:1 ratio as of today is better than what any other military has ever achieved.

As usual, you have it ass-backwards.

[kayecy]

232. Now you really are getting in a tizz...........

Since only about 3% of Hamas rockets have fallen on built up areas (ie perhaps 40 or so), it would be impossible for them to have killed thousands of Israelis even if there were no bunkers and no more Iron Dome.......Do be reasonable in your claims Shira.


You claim that "israel has dropped 1,000 bombs on Gaza over the past week with casualties under 100"....Where do you get your facts from?...As of the cease-fire over 150 Palestinians had been killed and 1,200 injured.

As I said, Israel cynically assassinated Jabbari to start this war and knew the result would be lots of Palestinian deaths............Which other western democracy would do that to refugees?

[shira]

233. Without bunkers, early warning, iron dome there would be far more Israeli deaths...

I'm sorry that not enough have been killed.

If it helps, I'll contact my friends in Israel and instruct them to kill some friends and family, for the sake of proportionality.

Where do you get Jabbril wanted a ceasefire? From Hamas?

[kayecy]

238. You are sorry that Hamas has not killed as many civilians as Israel has? .......

Where do you get Jabbril wanted a ceasefire? From Hamas?

AHMED AL-JABARI's assassination:

See the first hand report by Gershon Baskin http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html

What is your evidence for believing this not to be true.......IDF "secret sources" or do you just believe whatever Israeli propaganda says without checking?

[Ken Burch]

164. Gilad Sharon(the true voice of Bibi's government)is calling for mass murder, and Bibi backs him

as does Barak, a man who has now proved he never ever wanted peace.

Israel's leadership is not being careful where it bombs in this conflict at all. It just wants to crush Gaza...never mind that that can't achieve anything and can ONLY guarantee that Hamas will either become even more intransigent or be replaced by a more extremist leadership.

[shira]

231. Bibi and Barak back him? Another bloodthirsty charge...

Again I ask you, if Israel is so damned bloodthirsty then why is it their civilian to combatant ratios are significantly less than anyone else's? And not just everyone else; we're talking in the history of warfare.

Better, why are you pretending they're the worst WRT civilians or no better than Hamas (the worst)? I'll note that you've never even condemned Hamas for what they do to Palestinian civilians (used as shields and militants). Nothing about their rockets misfiring and landing in Gaza, killing Palestinians. You're obsessed with hating Israel.

Why the lies and this need to demonize and dehumanize Israelis?

[intaglio]

157. Yes, the missile attacks are bad

but you classifying them as "attempted mass murder" is disingenuous to say the least considering the marked lack of vast numbers of victims from the missiles that get through.

I do not hope to persuade you, of course, you are a completely uncritical supporter of the Zionist authorities in Israel

[shira]

163. It is attempted mass murder & if not for Iron Dome, alarm systems, bunkers....

...the casualties would be FAR higher. The ghouls from Hamas would be celebrating even more.

[intaglio]

187. Interesting that you choose to dehumanise the Palestinians

By using the term "ghoul". Have you learnt nothing from the history of the Jews in Europe and the vile and vicious terms used to describe them?

[shira]

192. Interesting you choose to make all Palestinians one with Hamas....

...thereby making them one with those who are oppressing them (christians, gays, women, children).

Classy.

There were 1.5 million in Gaza during OCL, with 10,000 being Hamas.

That doesn't make all Palestinians Hamas.

And Hamas are ghouls.

[intaglio]

194. I'm sure you believe that n/t

[CthulhusEvilCousin]

106. I often take

news like this with a grain of salt, as I've seen videos of Hamas picking up dead bodies from one location and depositing them in another, just to generate media stories. They skillfully use the media as a weapon. They also purposely locate their rockets near Mosques, hospitals, schools, and homes (sometimes right on top of these buildings) in order to, number one, decrease the likelyhood of getting bombed, and if they DO get bombed, they create more bad press for the Israelis.

[lalalu]

2. I condemn both sides.

I am sick of both. I wish we could put a giant bubble over that area.

[Fozzledick]

4. Yeah, the victims who defend themselves are just as guilty as the terrorists.

[lalalu]

11. Both sides play the victim part well.

This will never end until they annihilate each other.

[Fozzledick]

12. One side targets civilians, the other targets weapons aimed at their civilians.

If you can't tell the difference why should anyone take you seriously?

[lalalu]

13. One side believes they were promised land because of the Bible.

You take that seriously?

The other side was wrongly kicked off some of their land but think no one else has the right to live there because they have been there so long.

I don't take either side seriously.

[Tumbulu]

20. I'm with you and sick of the whole thing

and feel that these people are all trapped in a bubble of hate and fear and selling weapons to them is not the answer.

I don't have nay answer but feel very sad for all involved.

[shira]

27. So Israel is as bad as Hamas. Thanks for that horrendous piece of moral equivalence.

And of course by saying that, there'll be no condemnation of Hamas forthcoming.

Because Israel is "bad", Hamas' intent to mass murder and victimize their own population gets sanitized in moral equivalence.

[Tumbulu]

49. You know the perception to the public

is that the people of Gaza are stuck in a small place with no where to go. That they are just in a cage and the only solution Israel proposes is to exterminate them. That is how it looks to someone on the outside.

What are these people supposed to do? Where can they go? I do not think lopping missiles at Israel is acceptable, but what is their solution? Just starve to death? Now really, what is your answer?

Whatever is in place is not working and to an outsider like me, and a lot of others, both sides look very very bad.

[oberliner]

63. Exterminate them?

I really don't understand how someone can use that kind of language. Can you really believe that Israel is proposing "exterminating" all the people who live in Gaza?

No one in Gaza has starved to death, so I'm not sure why you would write something like that either.

What is Israel supposed to do if missiles are launched at them from Gaza? Just ignore it?

The people of Gaza need to do what they can to get rid of Hamas.

I definitely feel sorry for them being ruled by a fascist, terrorist entity - with no sign of elections coming anytime soon.

[Tumbulu]

70. Sorry that is the impression

it is sort of considered common knowledge around where I live. What else will happen to these people? Really, what are the actual plans then?

Sorry to inform you that this is what non involved people think. But this is the very horrific impression.

I do not know what Israel is supposed to do. I have many Jewish friends and when it comes to Israel a sort of insanity overcomes them. They simply do not see this situation in the way that non Jewish people see it. This is what I have observed.

I think that you can see it in this discussion.

[oberliner]

73. Where do you live?

I am curious to know where this impression is considered common knowledge.

I'm not sure what you mean by what else will happen to these people and what the actual plans are.

As far as I am concerned, the plans should be for a two state solution, with an independent Palestinian state comprised of Gaza and the West Bank living at peace with Israel. That would be the ideal - though we are obviously quite far from it now.

I do agree with you that it is a tough topic to discuss for many people.

[Tumbulu]

74. Northern CA

Yes a two state living in peace sure is a good goal. But it sure looks farther away now than in anytime in my lifetime and the impression of the Gaza scene is ghastly.

Many incredibly good people on both sides are at the ends of their ropes. It is very very sad.

[oberliner]

76. Thanks for sharing your perspective

I appreciate it. And I do agree that the situation is very sad for all concerned.

[Ken Burch]

81. The peoiple of Gaza are powerless AGAINST Hamas. They live at Hamas' mercy

They don't owe it to Israel to get themselves killed by Hamas...which is the only possible result of an anti-Hamas uprising, since they're militarily invincible(God help us all).

Resistance to Hamas is impossible, at least as long as the siege and the war goes on.

[oberliner]

87. None of that is true

Literally each and every sentence that you have written here is demonstrably false.

[Ken Burch]

91. If you were a Gazan, you'd see resistance to Hamas as suicidal and pointless

No anti-Hamas organizations exist there(other than those who want an even crazier leadership).

Those who want something better KNOW that standing up would get them all killed...so give me one good reason why they should try? They have nothing to gain from any effort that leads to Hamas slaughtering them. That effort could never lead to peace since the Israeli Right is totally against Palestinians anywhere getting any sovereignty at all and always will be.

[oberliner]

95. That's what people use to say about Libya

And Egypt and Tunisia and Syria...

[Ken Burch]

96. This has nothing in common with that.

And nobody would ever help a Gazan liberation movement anyway. The U.S. would want it to lose, since the U.S. hates the idea of Gaza not being a hellhole. It goes without saying that Netanyahu wouldn't.

Defeat would be certain in any effort to overthrow Hamas. You know that. What right do you have to demand that the innocent civilians of Gaza get themselves pointlessly slaughtered-their deaths would mean nothing and change nothing.

Nothing positive can ever come of what you demand. No peace, no justice, no hope. Only death for death's sake.

[JoDog]

137. One point here

If Israel wanted to exterminate the Arabs of the West Bank, it would have been done decades ago. Nothing could have stopped it. But that has never been on the military or civilian government's agenda. Instead, Israel makes sure food, natural gas and electricity makes it into the strip. Right now, IDF medics are treating the civilian victims of the air strikes.

In return, the majority of Israelis just want the people of Gaza to follow the law and not turn over their government to terrorists. If that were to happen, and the Grads were to stop tomorrow, this would be over.

[Tumbulu]

217. Well then what is this about then?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/02/free-gaza-youth-manifesto-palestinian?fb=optOut

It sounds like a living hell to me and how are the regular people supposed to get rid of Hamas exactly?

Again, this is ridiculous, normal liberals who have no emotional connection to Israel commonly have come to this conclusion. I began hearing it as a normal meme in 2000.

[Ken Burch]

80. Two of us condemned the rocket attacks in this very thread.

You can give the "no condemnation" thing a rest.

Hamas doesn't care what outsiders think of its actions anyway.

[shira]

124. When pressed, you write a one sentence condemnation...

You disagree with them. You don't like what they do.

That's it.

After 1000 rockets. Not much during the past year leading up to this mess, when mass condemnation of Hamas by wonderful pro-Palestinians like yourself could have led to Hamas thinking they were losing your support. Yes, they take that silence by pro-Palestinians as tacit support.

Now you're not as silent about the situation. But it's still 99.9% Israel's fault.

Gotcha.

[Ken Burch]

159. I never supported Hamas. It's not like the only positions on them are support or denunciation

Don't lie about my views.

And I'm pro-peace and justice, not "pro-Palestinian". This isn't a Manichaean "good v. evil" situation.

[shira]

167. So help me understand that when you ignore or deny Hamas' true character....

...like for example:

a) using children as militants and shields
b) video evidence calling for genocide of Jews
c) Pallywood
d) no condemnation for 1000 rockets leading to this war

When all that is ignored, explained away, or denied and you make up preposterous claims against Israel (they target civilians) in order to show both are as equally bad as the other, that's not support, nor is it diverting attention away from Hamas' ghoulish actions?

What is it then?

[Ken Burch]

169. I don't ignore it...I just don't think it's more important than everything else.

Hamas is not the cause of the conflict's perpetuation.

If civilians are dying in large numbers, they're being targeted. They can't ALL be unavoidable collateral damage-it wasn't unavoidable, for example, that that Gazan civilian had his house bombed WHILE HE WAS GIVING AN INTERVIEW TO THE BBC.

[Ken Burch]

79. Israel targets civilians too, and Cast Lead proved that.

Civilian deaths on the Gazan side are not unavoidable.

[Fozzledick]

84. Actually the exceptionally low ratio of civilian to combatant deaths proves just the opposite.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your propaganda.

[Shaktimaan]

89. hang on...

Saying that civilian deaths are not unavoidable is NOT the same thing as accusing Israel of TARGETING civilians.

Unless you have some kind of evidence to present you should refrain from making such hateful accusations. NO ONE who studied Cast Lead came away with any solid evidence whatsoever that Israel targeted civilians.

[shira]

125. Moral equivalency garbage....

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:12 AM - Edit history (1)

All you're doing is sanitizing/whitewashing Hamas by falsely accusing Israel of the same crimes.

Israel isn't intent on killing masses of innocent Palestinians.

Israel doesn't hate on women, gays, children, and christians like Hamas.

Israel isn't hiding behind its children and using them as militants.

=====

When you never condemn those things, and either ignore/deny them, that's tacit support of Hamas.

How am I wrong?

[JoDog]

139. It is difficult to avoid hitting civilians

when the paramilitary terrorist group that claims to defend those civilians hides weapons in and launches weapons from schools.

http://www.idfblog.com/hamas/2012/02/27/cover-hamas-illegitimate-human-shield/

[Ken Burch]

78. The Israelies are NOT innocent victims

The Netanyahu government helped cause this by its insistence on keeping Gaza under siege and its insistence on pressuring Egypt to cooperate in the lockdown(Egypt would never have kept Gaza under lockdown on its side by choice, since Egypt itself never had any reason to do so).

You are not entitled to any sanctimony here at all.

[Fozzledick]

83. So the Israelis are guilty of defending themselves from Hamas' terrorist attacks.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from.

[Shaktimaan]

90. evidence?

So Egypt is enforcing the blockade because Israel is pressuring them to do so?

First of all, do you have any evidence of this? Secondly, that is still an example of Egypt enforcing the blockade by choice. It is still Egypt's choice. I have people pressure me to do all sorts of things. Become a christian. Change cell phone providers. It is still my decision.

[shira]

126. Israeli victims of rockets are innocents.

Of course, Palestinians are more human so that's why every time an Israeli sneezes on one, it's a war crime. Rockets on Israelis, not so much.

[Ken Burch]

158. No, no, no...I never said Palestinians were MORE human

Just equally human...and just that it's equally wrong to kill Palestinian civilians.

And I denounced the rockets in this thread so you can stop with the "no denunciation" thing...it's been put to rest.

The rockets are bad...but they never justified what's being done to EVERYBODY in Gaza.

[shira]

168. You focus far more on Palestinian victimhood than Israelis...

It's not like I see you opening threads denouncing Hamas for attacking civilians. Or initiating posts that show sympathy for Israelis. Ever.

[Ken Burch]

170. Everyone already knows about Israeli victimhood. Israeli victimhood is always covered in the MSM

and privileged in the MSM(as if the deaths of Israelis are automatically worse than the deaths of Palestinians).

I mourn Israeli deaths as I do Palestinian deaths...I just don't give them special emphasis, since they've already been given the emphasis they deserve. No Israeli suffering ever goes unnoticed anywhere. By contrast, MOST of the suffering of Palestinian civilians is never reported at all.

People on both sides are equally human beings, and the vast majority on both sides are innocent civilians.

[still_one]

3. I have seen condemnation, and that Hamas started this particular conflict, at least in the U.S.

and European press

[shira]

31. Not by the Israel-can-do-no-right crowd, you haven't. No condemnation from them at all.

You can see that here on this very thread.

Exclusive blame must remain on Israel no matter what. Hamas can do anything they want, even to their own people (who cares), etc...

[Ken Burch]

82. Bullshit

There has been condemnation of Hamas from Israel critics ON THIS THREAD ITSELF.

Give the defamation a rest.

[shira]

114. Not really. You mumble that Hamas is wrong and then rant exclusively...

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:15 AM - Edit history (1)

...against Israel. It's obvious you put about 99.9% of the blame on Israel based on the totality of your work here.

That's whitewashing/sanitizing Hamas and all they do.

I don't see you and others like you opening threads condemning Hamas. I never saw much activity from you or your friends the past year when Hamas was shooting 1000 rockets at Israel. Not a thing. And now all you have is a weak, "I think they're wrong"? Please.

Where's your condemnation of Hamas' victimization of Palestinians? Forget their actions against women, gays, & christians, as horrible as all that is. But Hamas using them as human shields? Child militants?

Not a peep.

That's tacit support IMHO, not condemnation of evil.

[atreides1]

152. Personally I don't care

Speaking of condemnation...what's your take on this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9688134/Ariel-Sharons-son-Gilad-calls-on-Israel-to-flatten-Gaza.html


Do you agree with his sentiments, or would you condemn his view?

[shira]

171. He's a nutcase. He can't be ridiculed and condemned enough. n/t

[Ken Burch]

161. Condeming Hamas is not more important than everything else in this situation.

Hamas, bad as they are, are not the cause of the conflict OR the cause of its continuation. The conflict would still be going even if Hamas had never come into existence, because NO Palestinian leadership could ever have accepted the settlements and all the other deal-breakers Bibi and Co. insist on.

The conflict goes on because Israel has never treated the Palestinian side of this as equals, and never negotiated with them with a spirit of respect or AS equals. It's always been about insisting that Palestinians accept terms that Israel could depict as "surrender"-because your hero Bibi(and face it, you'd vote for him in this election if you're backing the war, since it's impossible to have progressive or humane values and support what he's doing here) has never wanted a Palestinian state next to Israel-he STILL thinks they should settle for statelessness or exile(or the revival of the "Jordan is Palestine" meme that EVERY Palestinian will always reject and which even Jordan has now renounced).

Palestinians have had bad leadership...but their leadership, bad as it is, is not the point. They could be led by Gandhians and Bibi would still be expanding the settlements and still be forbidding Gazans to travel to the West Bank via Israel, which is the only way they can get there. And you damn well know it.

[shira]

172. Actually, it is. If instead of rockets, their focus were to build up Gaza peacefully...

...then even if Israel resisted (if they did, a new election would have put a more liberal gov't into power) the world would pressure Israel to meet the Palestinians half-way. You damned well know there'd be peace right now as Israel would have offered something close to the Geneva Initiative in response to genuine Palestinian peace efforts.

And condemning Hamas should be important to people who say they're pro-Palestinian and are horrified at the way Palestinians are treated (not just by Israel but Palestinians). Of course that's not the case b/c most pro-Palestinians are like Hamas in that they don't give a rat's ass about Palestinians unless Israel takes the blame.

[Ken Burch]

176. You, for some reason, take the Israeli government at its word

that what it does to Palestinians(in the West Bank AND Gaza)is solely in the name of self-defense-leaving out the fact that there's a large faction in Israeli politics that believes that Israel MUST take then entire West Bank, retake Gaza and, if possible, make it Arabrein-and then STILL thinks Israel would have the right to demand that the Arab world accept it after doing all of that while still claiming that the Israeli side would still be the victims in that scenario. And you also leave out the fact that there is massive prejudice against Palestinians and ALL Arabs within Israel's political leadership...as much as there is within Hamas.

There's no way you could possibly be that naive.

[shira]

184. If Israel and the IDF hate Palestinians so much....

...then why are they more respectful WRT civilian lives than any other military in the history of combat? UN figures show the civilian to combatant ratio for Israel was 1:1 during OCL; compared to 3:1 or 4:1 at best for the USA, UK, and NATO in their recent wars.

Add to that what Hamas and all the activists think of the IDF and Israel. Think of the latest Pallywood video of a girl trying to goad those evil Israelis into doing something to her. Think of Palestinians lining up on rooftops to prevent IAF bombings of buildings. Israel's worst enemies know something you don't, even if neither of you wants to admit it.

How do you respond to that?

[ann---]

5. Terror?

If Israel would talk peace with Palestine - there wouldn't be any "lobbing" of rockets to get the attention of the world to show Israel's oppression of an entire nation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-10-things-you-need-to-know_b_2139356.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false&just_reloaded=1

Ten Things You Need to Know About Gaza

As Palestinian militants in Gaza fire rockets into Israel and the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) bombard the Strip 'in retaliation', here are 10 things you should probably know about Gaza:

1) "PRISON CAMP"

David Cameron once referred to Gaza as a "prison camp" and "some sort of open-air prison". 1.7million Palestinians are crammed into just 140 square miles; Gaza is one of the most crowded places on earth.

Israel, despite withdrawing its troops and settlers from the Strip in 2005, continues to control its airspace, territorial waters and border crossings (with the exception, of course, of Gaza's land border with Egypt...."

2) (UN)FAIR FIGHT

Remember: according to the Israeli human-rights group B'Tselem, in the last major conflict between Israel and Hamas - 'Operation Cast Lead' which kicked off in December 2008 - 762 Palestinian civilians were killed, including more than 300 children, compared to three (yes, three!) Israeli civilians.

We seem to be seeing a similar imbalance in bloodshed this time round: "MORE PALESTINIANS WERE KILLED IN GAZA (ON WEDNESDAY) THAN ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN KILLED BY PROJECTIVLE FIRE FROM GAZA IN THE PAST 3 YEARS)" wrote Palestinian-American activist Yousef Munayyer on the Daily Beast website.

3) "COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT"

Why do they hate us, ask ordinary Israelis? Well, Gaza has been under siege since January 2006, after its residents dared to elect a Hamas goverment in free and fair elections. The subsequent economic blockade imposed upon the Strip by the Israeli government at one stage prevented the residents of Gaza from importing, among other things, coriander, ginger, nutmeg and, even, newspapers.

Most international lawyers, as well as the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), consider the blockade to be illegal under international humanitarian law; in 2009, a UN panel, led by distinguished South African judge and self-confessed Zionist Richard Goldstone, accused Israel of imposing "a blockade which amounted to collective punishment".


As Palestinian militants in Gaza fire rockets into Israel and the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) bombard the Strip 'in retaliation', here are 10 things you should probably know about Gaza:


4) "ON A DIET"

In 2006, Dov Weissglass, the then chief of staff to Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon summed up his government's approach to Gaza and its residents when he confessed: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger."

A rhetorical flourish? Not quite: in 2008, Israeli defence officials in charge of restricting food and supplies from entering Gaza went so far "as to calculate how many calories would be needed to avert a humanitarian disaster in the impoverished Palestinian territory, according to a... declassified military document."

5) STUNTED GROWTH

Some 10% of children under five in the Gaza Strip have had their growth stunted due to prolonged exposure to malnutrition. "Stunting (chronic malnutrition) is not improving and may be deteriorating," concluded the World Health Organisation in May of this year.

6) JOBLESS AND HOPELESS

The unemployment rate in Gaza is 28% - and stands at 58% among young people aged between 20 and 24, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics.

7) STRESSED KIDS

One in five children in Gaza suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), according to the award-winning Palestinian psychiatrist Dr Eyad El-Sarraj. (More than half of Gaza's residents, incidentally, are under the age of 18.)

8) KILLING YOUR OWN 'SUBCONTRACTORS'

The escalation of the violence this week was prompted by Israeli's assassination-by-drone of Hamas military commander Ahmed al-Jabari; the IDF said Jabari was a terrorist with "blood on his hands". Yet, as Aluf Benn, editor-in-chief of the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, pointed out: "Ahmed Jabari was a subcontractor, in charge of maintaining Israel's security in Gaza... Israel demanded of Hamas that it observe the truce in the south and enforce it on the multiplicity of armed organizations in the Gaza Strip. The man responsible for carrying out this policy was Ahmed Jabari... Jabari was also Israel's partner in the negotiations for the release of Gilad Shalit; it was he who ensured the captive soldier's welfare and safety, and it was he who saw to Shalit's return home last fall."

According to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, Jabari was the "key actor on the Hamas side" responsible for keeping calm inside the Strip and the official who would "force" ceasefires "on all of the other factions and on Hamas". Good job, IDF!

9) POOR GAZANS. LITERALLY.

The most recent UN report on Gaza found that 80% of households in the Strip receive some form of financial assistance and 39% of people live below the poverty line.

10) 1948 AND ALL THAT

Two out of three Palestinian residents of Gaza - more than a million people! - identify themselves as refugees; the majority of these are 1948, and not 1967, refugees - that is, they fled to the Strip in the "ethnic cleansing" of 1948 and not the Six Day War and subsequent occupation of 1967. Thus, tragically, even a two-state solution, based on pre-1967 borders, will not deliver justice to these particular Palestinians.

[Fozzledick]

8. So you blame Israel for the effects of Hamas' policies.

Easy way to avoid facing the facts.

[ann---]

18. No, I blame

Benji Yahoo for using this as an excuse to kill more innocent Palestinians and gain a hold on more land by invading Palestine.

[Boxerfan]

9. Thanks for this-I'm borrowing for a reply...

There is a great deal of mis-information on what the Palestinians have endured. I feel no sympathy for the Netan-yahooheads.

[ann---]

17. I feel the same way

Benji Yahoo is a disgrace to his nation - as some Israelis don't like him or his policies of hitting a fly with a hammer either.

[shira]

15. Propaganda. No condemnation of Hamas. Thanks! n/t

[Shaktimaan]

86. Yes, terror.

If Israel would talk peace with Palestine - there wouldn't be any "lobbing" of rockets to get the attention of the world to show Israel's oppression of an entire nation.

Hahaha, I'm sorry, but why do you think that? Remember that all of the things you mention here are the result of the rockets, not a cause. In 2005 Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip, taking away all of the settlers and military, demolishing the settlements EXCEPT for hundreds of millions of dollars worth of greenhouse infrastructure, purchased and donated to the Palestinians by wealthy US philanthropists. They even left the Philadelphia route, giving control of Gaza's border back to the Gazans, along with full political sovereignty.

And what were the Gazan's reactions? Hours after Israel finished leaving, on September 12, 2005, the first rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel since the ceasefire started. HOURS! In the months following, rocket fire into Israeli towns and cities leaped up by 500%, and with the border out of Israel's control, Hamas was able to start importing Katyshas in through Egypt, giving them increased range and firepower.

So remember, when you say Israel should talk peace, Israel already HAS. Not only that, they made huge concessions towards peace, at huge expense to themselves. And Gaza's reaction was vastly increased violence against Israel.

----

1) David Cameron once referred to Gaza as a "prison camp"

Propaganda. By the way, this is Israel's fault how...?

2) (UN)FAIR FIGHT

True. It's an unfair fight. So what? Israel has less deaths because it spent billions on a missile defense system, warning systems and underground bunkers. Hamas spent all their resources on weapons to kill Israelis with. So that's why so few of the thousands of rockets against Israel killed so few. Does that make these war crimes less serious?

3) Gaza has been under siege since January 2006, after its residents dared to elect a Hamas goverment in free and fair elections.

No, Gaza has been under siege since its residents elected a terrorist organization that BEGAN ATTACKING ISRAEL. It's not the election. It's the rockets.

Most international lawyers, as well as the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), consider the blockade to be illegal under international humanitarian law

The most recent analysis, the UN sponsored Palmer report ruled that the blockade was legal. So this is just untrue.

4) "ON A DIET"

The Red Cross and the UN all reported that there was no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Food aid is taken by Hamas and resold illegally to Gazan civilians.

5) Some 10% of children under five in the Gaza Strip have had their growth stunted due to prolonged exposure to malnutrition.

Then why is Hamas spending so many resources building air-conditioned malls and swimming pools?

6) JOBLESS AND HOPELESS. The unemployment rate in Gaza is 28%

So the best solution is to send thousands of rockets against Israeli civilians. Because the unemployment rate is so high, it is not a war crime, for some reason?

7) STRESSED KIDS. One in five children in Gaza suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), according to the award-winning Palestinian psychiatrist Dr Eyad El-Sarraj.

A recent study showed that 28% of adults and 30% of children in Sderot suffer from PTSD due to all the freakin rockets falling out of the sky blowing everything up around them.

8) KILLING YOUR OWN 'SUBCONTRACTORS'

Huh?

9) POOR GAZANS. LITERALLY. The most recent UN report on Gaza found that 80% of households in the Strip receive some form of financial assistance and 39% of people live below the poverty line.

That sucks. You know who's been doing well economically? Better and better every year in fact? The Palestinians in the West Bank. Because they refrain from shooting rockets at Israel. Go figure.

10) 1948 AND ALL THAT. Two out of three Palestinian residents of Gaza - more than a million people! - identify themselves as refugees

Technically, they would not be refugees, they'd be internally displaced. Because they lived in Paslestine you see, and they were displaced to a different part of Palestine. A better example of refugee would be the million or so Jews who were ethnically cleansed from all of the surrounding Arab states, who were then taken in by Israel. Most of the rest of the Jews who immigrated to Israel were also refugees, from Europe, Africa or even Asia. You'll notice that Israel is not shooting missiles at Germany though.

[JoDog]

140. Well said.

In addition, Gazans chose to destroy nearly everything built by Israelis after the IDF withdrawal, including the infrastructure of the plant and cut-flower industry that flourished in the region. Had those facilities been left in operation, they would have provided jobs and income.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/#.UKo0av8-tQI
http://www.haaretz.com/news/palestinian-militants-ransack-former-gush-katif-greenhouses-1.179788

[Shaktimaan]

149. to their credit

those greenhouses were rebuilt and are now operational.

[azurnoir]

154. Because gosh Palestinians could have exported their produce right? thanx for 7 yr old link

[shira]

173. It's hard for you to condemn Hamas for anything specific, isn't it?

Because doing so is hasbara, and that's against the cause.

Am I wrong?

[azurnoir]

183. what are you babbling on about? the comment was about Palestinians in 2005 not Hamas today

but maybe you do not differentiate between the 2, the number of times you've made similar unfounded accusations at other DUers could indicate something of that sort

[shira]

185. Yeah, Palestinians like Hamas destroying the greenhouses back then...

You can't condemn that, can you?

[azurnoir]

186. lol nice try but your comment is quite revealing

I could not have asked for more thanks

[aquart]

229. The Rafah Gate leads to 85 million people. Sounds like a market to me.

Nothing Israel could do would matter if Egypt opened the gate.

Never hear one word against Egypt keeping the Gazans penned up. But you know what? They are.

[shira]

235. Isn't that funny? Zero condemnation of Egypt from our fellow peace activists.

Not one peep.

Why the disproportionate focus (they like the word disproportionate) on Israel?

[aquart]

237. You know why. I know why.

They'll deny it till they die.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians have goals they can never satisfy. Even if the Israelis evaporated leaving every possession, building, factory, farm intact for the Palestinians to move into, it would all go wrong and they would still be unhappy.

Because their "national" character is to nurse grievances, cherish mythical entitlements, and seek violent revenge.

Even the people espousing their cause shun them like plague. Egypt could have relieved their suffering at any time...by opening the gate. But Egypt doesn't want them. The Palestinians cheered Arab Spring, but were they allowed to be in Tahrir Square?

Perfectly normal human beings, but they have taken an idea into their minds that will hurt them forever. And it will always be someone else's fault.

[patrice]

199. So the Palestinians couldn't be bought off, hmmmm. Is that the behavior of anyone who

is really more interested in killing Jews, which they could well have done and had those economic resources too if they had not destroyed the greenhouses, or is that the behavior of people who desire self-determination so deeply that they bite the hand that "feeds" them?

[mike_c]

6. terror?-- you mean Palestinian responses to generations of Israeli oppression?

You might try playing the "sympathy for Israel" card somewhere where a fondness for apartheid and ethnic oppression is still strong.

[Fozzledick]

7. Interesting religion you've got there.

As defined by your tagline.

[mike_c]

19. I'm an atheist....

Not sure I understand the relevance of your comment.

[Fozzledick]

21. Time to use the two-by-four.

Read your own tagline.

Consider how it applies to the content of your post.

[mike_c]

66. it's Persig's statement about the irrationality of religious beliefs...

...and I largely agree with it, hence its use as my sigline. I still think that, while true, it's irrelevant to this thread. As I understand it, this thread is not about Judaism, Islam, or any other religion, but if it is, then I suppose my sigline expresses my disdain for it/them.

[shira]

16. So Israeli women & children had those rockets coming to them?

And no condemnation of Hamas.

Thanks.

[mike_c]

67. as I said, the sympathy-for-Israel card has little currency here....

I'm deeply ashamed that my country's politicians continue support for Israeli oppression of the Palestinians.

[shira]

133. But if you have sympathy for Palestinians....

...you would have condemn rockets dozens of times throughout the past year when 1000 of them were flying over the border.

You'd have done so knowing the Israeli response to them.

You'd also condemn Hamas for hiding behind the children as human shields and using them as militants.

But not a peep.

[azurnoir]

200. give us proven examples of Hamas actually using children as human shields

and no not some anything Israel rightwing BS blog but a Human Rights organization condemning Hamas using children as human shields, because it would seem you believe that if you repeat something often enough it becomes the truth

[shira]

204. Well here's a video from Hamas admitting it...

Here are several reporters saying Hamas fires rockets from within densely populated communities...

&feature=player_embedded

That's consistent with the Islamic Jihad terrorist killed in a building with 3 other Jihadis holed up among reporters...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i0-5VWAmt308BKSElZlPWfRibdcw?docId=CNG.73fa3e076684757ead41364f0aac4796.551

[azurnoir]

207. lol a MEMRI translation are we supposed to believe supposed ex ShinBet and Mossad agents seriously

especially seeing as how they have been caught translating thins like "we will be killed" as "we will kill" ect and routinely translate Israeli as Jews oh and some paid reporters good shira I couldn't ask for more lol thanks

[shira]

209. The translation of that video isn't under dispute. I also see you ignored...

...the testimony of those reporters and the Islamic Jihadists killed amongst journalist shields earlier today.

Why are you defending Hamas?

Oh BTW, here's an old post from yours truly quoting B'tselem WRT their human shields...
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=13359

I don't expect any condemnation of Hamas forthcoming from you.

[azurnoir]

211. that was not Btselem here is Bteselem

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:50 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields

the only legitimate charges of using human shields are the ones that have been brought against IDF not Hamas

your false accusations against DUers which are seeming to become your trademark speak volumes for the veracity off the rest of your blather

I will condemn Hamas when a bona fide case is brought against them by a Human Rights organization not hear say not biased opinion

[shira]

215. Denial and defense of Hamas. What more can be said?

You deny Hamas admitting it on video.

You ignore reporters claiming they fire rockets from densely populated areas.

You deny what B'tselem had to say.

Here are more reports from the OCL era for you to deny...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/17/world/middleeast/17israel.html?th=&adxnnl=1&emc=th&adxnnlx=1232559411-5nJYDZcXIswtedPrMvDomA&_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/world/middleeast/06scene.html?em
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/gaza-in-ruins-who-has-won-here-a-603203.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2009/01/07/israelis_hit_school_in_gaza_30_killed/
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2009/01/news_station_used_to_launch_a_1.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/01/19/hamas-and-its-discontents.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/07/world/fg-gaza7

[azurnoir]

216. still can not produce any actual charges can you? not one nothing nada why because ther are not any

there are opinion pieces you've misrepresented Btselem oh and predictably went for Camera ect but nothing factual

[shira]

219. So all the journalists and their many articles detailing Hamas' human shields....

...and all the photos out there showing how rockets are launched from dense civilian populations are not proof of anything? Like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RBLt139A8qY/UKr9Qk2u_QI/AAAAAAAAQf4/lNALu7XU4bM/s1600/hamas+war+crimes+4.png

So unless they're charged by anyone outside of Israel and the US, it's as if it's not happening?

Nice little world you live in.

[azurnoir]

220. ah so a screen shot of Rightist propaganda proves everything-for you apparently

like I said nothing nada zip because there is nothing that is actually factual is there can't admit that can you?

oh but this will be around the 220th post on thread congrats mission accomplished

[shira]

221. The picture is from Haaretz actually. Are they too rightwing for you?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/timeline-israel-launches-operation-pillar-of-defense-amid-gaza-escalation.premium-1.479284/timeline-israel-launches-operation-pillar-of-defense-amid-gaza-escalation.premium-1.479284

[azurnoir]

222. the credit on your screen shot says eldar of zyon a rightist blog that was forbidden on DU2

and Haaretz link leads to nothing but a subscription wall and then a link to live blog where your little screen shot does NOT appear so we'll just have to take your word for it that Haaretz stole something from eldar of zyon, eh?

[shira]

223. Try this, then. It's Haaretz. Now what do you say?

http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.472642.1352729902!/image/3305904133.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_795_345/3305904133.jpg

Here's the article with the picture:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/timeline-israel-launches-operation-pillar-of-defense-amid-gaza-escalation.premium-1.479284/timeline-israel-launches-operation-pillar-of-defense-amid-gaza-escalation.premium-1.479284

[riverwalker]

10. actually

CNN did show some footage of a BMW in Israel with a broken rear windshield.

[shira]

25. So where's your condemnation of Hamas? n/t

[riverwalker]

64. they were very bad to break the windshield

However, slaughtering 50 people in retaliation is what should be condemned.

[shira]

132. So 1000 rockets is no biggie to condemn? n/t

[GitRDun]

24. I am sick of them both!

Hamas takes no lessons from Ghandi, MLK. Israel with its endless settlement creep, wants to negotiate which part of the pie the two sides get while eating the pie! Then they have the gall to complain about Hamas rockets? Give me a break! A pox on both their houses!

[shira]

26. So no condemnation of Hamas? And even better....

Israelis get no sympathy b/c they deserve what they get due to their government's settlement policy?

Ewww.

[GitRDun]

68. You obviously did not read what I said.

You are too busy countering every anti Israel statement

[azurnoir]

69. Trust me here that's not it

your statement was simply reinterpreted for you that's all, a few of us who post regularly here have our statements reinterpreted for us in a similar manner quite regularly

[subsuelo]

71. Reinterpreting others statements...

... is an ugly job, but clearly, someone has to do it

[azurnoir]

113. yep and as you can see some things never change

but it's good to see you here again even if it's under these circumstances

[subsuelo]

151. Thank you for the welcome

[shira]

127. You're simplifying it as both sides are equally wrong. That's pretty bad...

And to top it off, Israelis have the gall to complain about rockets.

Would you have the gall to do so if they were coming over the border into your neighborhood, by evil fuckers wanting your ass dead? Based on past US crimes?

[larocks4552s]

165. Couldn't agree more with your post

Both sides are to blame for the current situation, and both sides need to work together to solve their problems in a diplomatic fashion.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

28. Where is the condemnation of the open air prison known as Gaza?

Where is the condemnation of the lack of fresh drinking water and food because of the Israeli blockades? Where is the condemnation of the travel restrictions?


We can play this game all day long.

[shira]

30. Rockets preceded the blockade by 2 years. Hamas is not only attempting mass murder....

...but also victimizing their own population (human shields, child combatants, their own rockets hitting Gazans).

So....where's your condemnation?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

35. This is why you can't win an argument with your type.

You somehow find a way to blame the Israeli deaths and the Palestinian deaths on the Palestinians. Unfortunately its people with your narrow mindset that are running the show on both sides, and thus children and families have to die. If you support or justify any sort of murder on either side or support forcing people into open air prisons you are not a progressive and you have no ounce of moral fiber.


You will never find me supporting the Hamas rocket attacks, and likewise you will never find me bailing out any state sanctioned murder Israeli, Palestinian or even US.

[shira]

40. Hamas is a very evil organization. As you know, they not only hate Jews....

...but also gays, women, and christians. It's not surprising they victimize their own people, using children as human shields and militants.

Do you require evidence for this? How much would you need to convince you?

And no, what Israel does is not murder. See post #23 above, where it's a given fact Israel is more respectful of civilians in combat than any other military in the history of warfare. To equate what Israel does to Hamas is beyond reprehensible. To refuse to condemn Hamas is in no way leftwing or progressive. I can't imagine Marx, Engels, or Luxemburg ever refusing to do so.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

43. I've condemned Hamas.

Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? And yes what Israel is doing is murder you just think its ok because somehow you've justified murder in your head. Don't ask me how you got there that's something you need to sort out yourself. Hamas is committing murder to, neither side is in the right.

And Israel isn't some "progressive" socialist paradise. Do I need to tell you about the racially segregated roads?

[Shaktimaan]

93. Oh wow.

Listen dude,

You should be aware that shira and many others here have been studying this conflict for many years. It's doubtful you have anything to teach them about Israel or Palestine that's been plucked from whatever anti-Zionist propaganda site.

Do I need to tell you about the racially segregated roads?

Unless it is to point out that they are a great example of untrue anti-Israel propaganda, then no. However I get the impression that someone should tell you about them. They do not exist. There are roads segregated by nationality... Israelis can take one road and Palestinians can take another. Effective ONLY in the occupied territories, of course, not at all within Israel proper. And the reason for them is important to remember. This policy was put into effect because of the large numbers of rock throwers who would stand over the roads beforehand, using slingshots to fire rocks at the Israeli cars, causing countless accidents and many deaths.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

104. Oh wow.

They've been studying it for a long time??!?! I'll just shut up then. I didn't realize the final authority on all thing Israel/Palestine posted on this board.

Give me a fucking break. If you're not prepared to have an adult discussion just say so, but to say "i'm smarter so i'm right" is not only childish you're embarrassing yourself.

Next your going to tell me Sharon wasn't a war criminal and mass murderer. You can keep your revisionist history and neo-con war monger rationalizations. I'll side with human rights and progress.

Hamas is immoral, the Israeli right wing war machine is immoral. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem and if you side with either of these organizations you're part of the problem.


And I'm not a fucking "dude".

[Shaktimaan]

111. Did I touch a nerve?

First of all, you have no right to criticize my commentary. You chose to set the tone of the conversation with your snide remark, "Do I need to tell you about the racially segregated roads?"

That said, what are you going on about with "revisionist history" and "war monger rationalizations?" I corrected your misunderstanding of a specific issue, the so called racially-segregated roads. If you think that anything I said is in any way untrue, (and I assure you, it is not), then feel free to try and disprove it.

But if not, I'm afraid that by babbling on about Sharon being a war criminal and how you are on the side of human rights and progress, the only one embarrassing themselves would be you. That said, I am unsure as to how making false assertions of racial discrimination puts you on the side of human rights and progress. Perhaps you meant to say "some human's rights...?" Then it would make more sense.

Hamas is immoral, the Israeli right wing war machine is immoral. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem and if you side with either of these organizations you're part of the problem.

How wonderfully simplistic. Are we then to assume that you consider the vast majority of the population of the Gaza strip to be "part of the problem" considering the amount they were voted in by?

And I'm not a fucking "dude".

Are you sure? You were wrong about that whole segregated road thing, remember? You could just as easily be wrong here too.

[Ken Burch]

97. Likud is evil too.

(and let's face it, that's the party you'd be backing in Israel if you support the Gaza war. You can't support that war and have any progressive views at all.)

[ForgoTheConsequence]

107. Pretty amazing.

Some American leftists can't get enough of Likud and Kadima. I guess its easier to support right wing fascism when its on the other side of the world.

[shira]

116. Many American Leftists support the only liberal democracy in the ME....

...over a theocratic, fascist, warmongering Hamas entity. It's an easy choice.

[shira]

115. Simplistic. You're whitewashing/sanitizing Hamas every time....

...you attempt this moral equivalency crap.

Obviously, Hamas is not that evil to you. They've fired 1000 rockets just in the last year leading up to this war. Besides mumbling every now and then that Hamas is wrong to do that - AFTER being prodded initially - all you've done is focus exclusively on Israel's actions.

Hamas is only evil when you're backed up against a wall and have to say "they're wrong".

Nothing about using children as militants or human shields. Not a peep.

======

Now if I were like you, all I'd have to say about Likud is "they're wrong, and that's enough". Then, I could unload exclusively - like 99% of each and every OP - on Hamas actions. And damn, that would be EASY! What would you think of that?

You say I support Likud. But how would you like it if I accused you of supporting Hamas? Each is just as bad as the other, right?

[Ken Burch]

166. Hamas is not worse than everybody else in leadership in this conflict

Likud's morality is the same as theirs, as was Kadima's(before it collapsed). The morality of Ehud Barak's new right-wing hate party(it's possible the war was only launched to get them over the threshold of Knesset membership so that Barak could go on being defense minister-for-life, despite the fact that he's always been a total failure in the job). Labor and Meretz may be slightly better, but they're hated by most Israelis at this point despite the fact that they've never done anything to deserve that hatred.

ALL the leaders on all sides in this dispute are immoral.

You've never criticized in this forum ANY settlement expansion in the West Bank(even though you know they're ALL illegal and have no reason to be there), any act of privation imposed on Gaza, any repressive acts the Israeli leadership has imposed on Palestinians at all. You've never deviated from Bibi's line.

I've frequently expressed opposition to Hamas. It's just that I don't obsess on them to the exclusion of everything else. And why should I, when the conflict would still be going on even if Hamas had never existed at all?

[shira]

175. Hamas isn't worse if you ignore/deny their true character...

So when you ignore/deny their role in child militants, child shields, subjugation of gays, women, and christians, their genocidal hatred of Jews, and Pallywood attempts to demonize Jews.......while at the same time making up crap about Israel (targeting civilians) and denying that the IDF's record WRT civilians is unmatched in the history of combat, then of course all leadership is just as bad as the other.

So the question is why do you do all the above?

Is that the PC thing to do?

[Zoeisright]

102. Grow up.

[bupkus]

33. And where is the condemnation of Israel's assassination of Hamas' military leader that precipitated

That precipitated all of this?

And how can Israel defend immediately posting the murder of Ahmed al-Jabari on YouTube?

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/11/idf-hamas-youtube/
Israel Kills Hamas Leader, Instantly Posts It to YouTube

By Noah Shachtman
11.14.12
4:27 PM

This is disgusting and shameless behavior. Israel learned their lessons well. Unfortunately, from the wrong teacher.

SHAME.

Edit to add YouTube link:

&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fdangerroom%2F2012%2F11%2Fidf-hamas-youtube%2F&has_verified=1&has_verified=1

[shira]

128. Why condemn killing a Hamas terrorist leader? That's like condemning...

...the killing of bin Laden.

Screw that.

[JoDog]

141. Beg pardon

but the killing of Ahmed al-Jabari was not what precipitated all of this. The killing of al-Jabari was a reaction to weeks of missiles fired from the Gaza strip into southern Israel.

And no, the video should not have been posted to YouTube. That was inappropriate.

[customerserviceguy]

32. I'm with you on this one

I'm sure the Palestinians have a word for "truce" that sounds an awful lot like their word for "reloading".

[bupkus]

34. I'm sure Israel has a word for "peace"

That sounds a lot like "genocide".

[shira]

36. Genocide by Israel! Awesome! And still no condemnation of Hamas....

I hear the zionists eat Palestinian infants and rape their livestock too.

Thanks for your input.

[bupkus]

38. Condemnation of people who are prisoners in a ghetto?

I hear "zionists" (your word, not mine) maintain a Palestinian ghetto very similar to one that should have given more meaning to "Never forget" than their current behavior indicates.

You're welcome for my input, BTW.

[shira]

44. You see Hamas as victims in a ghetto, do you? You believe all Palestinians....

...are one and the same with Hamas, which victimizes them every bit as much as they try doing so to Israelis. Am I correct?

That way, any condemnation of Hamas is a "racist" condemnation of Palestinians.

Yes?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

45. Take a deep breath

And re-read what people are saying. I think if you were on the outside looking in you would be a little ashamed of yourself.

[shira]

129. I'm reading what they're saying. Not impressed with their knowledge....

...of the situation.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

39. There's been plenty.

You just see what you want to see. Don't let me stop you from enjoying a good carpet bombing though. Have your popcorn ready? Honestly at this point blind Hamas and blind Israel supporters should be given their own island and allowed to duke out away from all the children they obviously don't give a shit about.

[shira]

41. Then how do you explain Richard Kemp citing UN numbers...

...showing Israel is more respectful of civilians during combat than any other nation in the history of warfare?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_War

Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media.[39]

The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to-one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed. That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three to one. In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia. In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one.”[40]

[JoDog]

142. Nothing quite like

defending against the modern blood libel first thing in the morning, is there?

[customerserviceguy]

42. If the Israelis

really wanted to use some sort of "final solution" they'd have done it decades ago. They're trying their damnedest to put up with the Arabs that other Arabic countries don't want to integrate into their own societies. They'd rather see the Palestinians, especially the Gazans, as the noisy dog that you keep on the side of the house where you're trying to get the neighbors to move out.

If the Arabic world would have chosen to resettle the Palestinians into their member states, peace would have prevailed a long time ago. They don't want that, however, as they'd rather exploit the situation to keep oil prices up, or play the rest of the world off, like they did with the US and the old Soviet Union, when the latter had money.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

46. Wow.

Is this seriously a post on Democratic Underground? Or is this from an English Defense League pamphlet? This crisis is really outing a lot of closet racists.

[customerserviceguy]

59. Perhaps you prefer the status quo?

The Palestinians as the Arab world's pawns in a game of "lets see who can get who to move out first" with the Israelis?

Either way, I don't have a dog in the fight.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

101. Could have fooled me.

But thats a better arguement than your native american comparison. Good job.

[JoDog]

143. Check out how they are being treated in Jordan

http://english.alarabiya.net/views/2012/09/10/237182.html
http://www.meforum.org/3121/jordan-is-palestinian
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/08/anti-israel-activists-discover.html

[JimDandy]

88. Certainly not a racist here, but that is my take on the situation also.

1. I learned that same scenario in history in an American high school on an American military base. Never understood why, when Israel became a state by UN vote, and they asked the palestinians to stay where they were in Israel and become Israeli citizens that the Palestinians chose to go to war with the Jewish settlers instead. The Palestinian "exile" or "refugee status" started then and was self-imposed. My schooling was that, at some point (clearly am not a scholar on any of this) the surrounding Arabian countries were asked to provide land for a Palestinian homeland, but refused to do so.

2. Each time there was a major conflict (3 times over the decades since statehood, if I remember correctly) it was not started by the Israelis, but they did take defensive action.

3. The US has declared Hamas a terrorist organization. Hamas was a Lebanese? organization that went into Gaza and purposefully inserted themselves into their political system. They were originally backed by Syria but over the years Iran has been providing support and became their biggest supporter when the Syrian government broke ties with them. Hamas is currently backing the Syrian opposition.

4. I am an atheist and can hardly stand to read threads that relate to religious conflicts, especially in the middle east.

Okay, let the attacks come - educational arguments welcome but no ad hominem attacks please. Thanks.

[LeftishBrit]

135. I think you misread the post

customerserviceguy was saying that the Arab states mostly don't want to integrate the Palestinian refugees into their own societies, as shown by some countries keeping Palestinians in refugee camps for decades. Judging from the EDL reference, I think you might have misread it as that the Palestinians themselves don't want to integrate. I don't think that's what was being said.

[hrmjustin]

51. Why the hell should the Palestinians be relocated? They are from there.

[customerserviceguy]

60. Throughout history

wars have been fought, losing peoples have been displaced. After a number of years, that just becomes the new status quo.

Care to give up your home to a Native American? Would you be OK with Egyptians telling Apache or Navaho people to fire rockets into your town?

[hrmjustin]

62. I see your point, but why do the palestinians have to get the end of the stick.

[customerserviceguy]

65. Its simply because so very much time has passed

That's what eventually "legitimatizes" all of history's displacements. The Arab world gave it the best shot they had in 1967, and lost. Since then, all they really want is for the Palestinians to be a burr under the Israeli saddle, and now the Iranians have found the Gazans useful for this purpose, as well.

Very few people from 1947 who were adults at the time are still alive enough to motivate change, and everybody who's come along after this had no part in making it occur. It's why there will never be reparations for American slavery.

[bupkus]

75. So very much time has passed?

From 1947 to 2012 is so very much time in your estimation?

If that's your reasoning then what about the millenia that passes between the time when the Jewish people weren't in Palestine? Those millenia didn't stop them from making claim on land they hadn't lived in or owned for thousands of years. But you claim the Palestinians lost the rights to their land after only 65 years have passes?

Nonsense.

[customerserviceguy]

109. Yes, the Jewish state

made a claim on land that it hadn't really had control over for a very long time. But a war was fought, and won.

I guess the Gazans think they can start another one and win, just the way that the Jewish state won over their land. However, they seem to be massively outgunned at this point. That's another reason to accept the fact that Israel just isn't going to go away quietly.

[bupkus]

53. Why didn't the Germans decide to resettle the Jews in their member states?

Instead of stealing Palestine?

[customerserviceguy]

61. I'm not sure how much power the Germans had in 1947

But Helen Thomas likes your solution, even today.

[Shaktimaan]

98. Many reasons.

For one, the Yishuv had been immigrating to and building the state of Israel in Palestine for many decades when WWII ended. The Zionists had spent many years and a good deal of political capital and time organizing and receiving international backing from any and all organizations that had the legitimacy to decide these things... like the League of Nations and Prince Hussein (then the de-facto leader of the Arab groups living in Palestine.)

Next, the state of Germany was already a state. Taking part of Germany and giving it to the Jews had far more potential problems than doing the same in Palestine. For one, Germany was heavily populated. What would happen to the people who owned property and lived in the area given to the Jews? Would they lose their land. Have it forcibly bought from them? What country would they live in? Could they stay where they were or would they be ethnically cleansed?

OTOH, in Palestine, there was no state to speak of. No one "stole" Palestine because it did not exist. There wasn't any country there, but more importantly, there wasn't any group with national aspirations either. There was no "Palestinian people" until later on, formed as a reaction to Zionism and Israel.

Palestine was FAR less densely populated, and much of the land needed to be altered to become usable. Zionists famously purchased swamps and then drained them, turning unusable acreage into tenable farmland. The Arabs who were living there had the choice to remain where they were and be a part of the Jewish state or they could move a few miles away to the new Arab state. Unlike in Germany, most Palestinians did not own property. Those who did sold their property at vastly inflated prices to the Jewish immigrants willing to pay for it. Remember that. The Zionists purchased the land they were building on, all of it, up until the Great Arab Uprising and the subsequent British decision to meet the racist Arab demand of restricting all land sales to Jews. Following the war of independence, when the borders of Israel were expanded and most of the Palestinians who had been living there were either expelled or not allowed to return after having temporarily fled to avoid the fighting.

The start of every country was accompanied by some degree of bloodshed and population displacement/resettlement. At the same time as the Israeli war of independence, Partition was occurring in India. A million people died and many more displaced. In Palestine the numbers were counted in the thousands. Still a tragedy, and one that may have been avoidable, but far less than almost anywhere else. In the end around 750-800,000 Palestinians became refugees from the Nakba and a little less than a million Jews became refugees from surrounding Arab states they were expelled from or otherwise "influenced" to leave.

It is important to think about what was happening in Palestine when the Zionists began immigrating. It wasn't Palestine like we would think of it as a state today. There were Arabs living there as they were in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and so on, all of which, for the most part constituted a single large area. So when Jews immigrated to parts of Palestine and began legally buying uninhabited blocks of land they were not "stealing" anything from anyone. They had as much right to move there and buy land as an Arab person from Egypt did. And there were many Arab people from Egypt and other areas doing just that. Nothing about the area made all of it intrinsically "Arab" land any more than "Druze" or "Christian" or anyone else's land. Most of it had an Arab majority living there. But that depended entirely on the area one was defining. If you just looked at Jerusalem then it would have had a Jewish majority. And the area that the UN partitioned to be the Jewish State in their resolution had a firmly Jewish majority.

[Fozzledick]

37. I hudna said it better!

[Mosby]

47. al jazeera reporter advocating collective punishment and murder

[shira]

48. BINGO! And THAT's why there's no condemnation of Hamas terror.

What they do is justified, FFS!

The world is just as sick as it was 70 years ago, I'm afraid.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

57. Theres plenty of condemnation

Are you trolling? You can't seriously be this naive. From our own fucking president to the international community to this fucking message board. ALMOST EVERYONE IS CONDEMNING IT!

[shira]

117. Plenty? 1000 rockets over the last year and the anti-Israel crowd....

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:20 AM - Edit history (1)

....was pretty fucking quiet during that time about Hamas. They weren't that much more vocal about the Syrian situation, FTR.

Now they're not so quiet anymore. And the best they've got is "I don't agree with Hamas" or "They're wrong and I condemn them". Pretty weak shit compared to what they say about Israel.

Hamas also hides deliberately behind its women and children while in combat. They use children as militants. I don't see any condemnation of that either. Not to mention how they hate on women, gays, and christians....

[madamesilverspurs]

50. Here.

In the waning days of the British mandate, as the UN prepared to vote on partition, the Mufti of Jerusalem (among other Arab leaders) vowed to finish destroying the Jews. Post-partition that attitude has maintained in several organizations, such as PLO, up to and including Hamas. The many fictions about the inception and maintenance of refugee camps has been one of their master strokes, with deadly effect. Sadly, the world took only momentary notice of it following the PLO's murder of the Israeli athletes in Munich. The abject hate continues to inform Hamas while misinforming whole populations. In humans, for some reason, hate is the easiest road; in the United States we need look no farther than those states where the Civil War is honored, those communities where the confederate flag proudly waves.

Golda Meir famously noted that the conflicts would continue until Hamas and those like them learn to "love their children more than they hate us." How tragic it is that we have a very long way to go before that happens.

You're not alone here. And that comes from someone who, not so long ago, got tossed under the DU bus for supporting Barack Obama.

-

[Deep13]

52. fail. nt

[johnq45]

54. Condemnation..............................

If Israeli troops were here and set up Martial Law, patrolled our streets all armored up carrying automatic weapons with back up from armored vehicles and aircraft, breaking down our doors with impunity, stopping anyone at will, stealing our land and bull dozing our homes. Killing us, our children, neighbors, friends and family! Well I think I'd be angry enough to start killing them too. Rockets landing in their back yards would be the least of their problems! I’ve about had it with this so called ally of ours using American tax dollars to commit evil acts! And for a people who claim to be so wounded by the Nazi’s they sure are attempting to emulate them! The resemblances I see in videos and what I hear and read regarding what Israel is doing are incredible.

[Shaktimaan]

100. You know,

that Israel isn't occupying Gaza anymore, right?

Rockets landing in their back yards would be the least of their problems!

So are you actually supporting the perpetration of war crimes against innocent Israeli civilians?

And for a people who claim to be so wounded by the Nazi’s they sure are attempting to emulate them!

Really, in what ways?

The resemblances I see in videos and what I hear and read regarding what Israel is doing are incredible.

Such as what?

[Warren DeMontague]

206. "Claim"?

Interesting word choice. Want to elaborate on that?

[Sekhmets Daughter]

55. Perhaps you should ask,

What would Canada do if the United States simply decided they wanted to occupy Alberta and take over the oil sands?

[shira]

118. A false analogy justifying terror vs. Israeli citizens. Classy. n/t

[Sekhmets Daughter]

145. You will have to do better than that.

I am sympathetic to both sides. From where I sit, part of the problem is that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians seem to be able to walk in the others' shoes.

You are so full of wrath that you can't even understand the point I was attempting to make. I never said it is perfectly okay to launch missiles into Israel. You are angry because I didn't say it is perfectly okay to keep 1.7 million people, 44% of whom are under the age of 14, trapped behind a fence with limited resources at their disposal.

Modern Israel and I are the same age, I have been watching this conflict most of my life. The advent of the internet meant that Americans would now have easy access to the other side of this struggle, the Palestinian point of view. What is evident from this information is that both sides are intractable, both sides are behaving criminally and neither side has any intention of giving in.

Frankly, I tend to be more sympathetic to the Israelis as I was only an impressionable 11 when Eichmann was captured and the New York Times did an amazing job of chronicling the Holocaust. (The NYT was delivered to my sixth grade desk every morning). However, I am not blind to the suffering of the Palestinians. Israel has to make a decision, either they find a way to live with the Palestinians or they annihilate them. The Palestinians must decide whether it is better to be annihilated or learn to live with the Israelis. I would say that time is on the side of the Palestinians. Not that I want it to be, but that it is.

[shira]

177. Your last paragraph is a real doozy...

You think Israel wants to annihilate the Palestinians? You don't know anything about the conflict. The reason Israel's record during war WRT civilians is better than any other military in the history of warfare is because the Israeli public cannot stomach being any worse than that. Now think on that for a while. What the USA, UK, and NATO do during war, Israel would find horrific if their IDF are to do the same.

OTOH, Hamas regularly states their intent to annihilate the Jews. They've turned down one offer of a state after another over 70 years precisely because they cannot abide a Jewish state on 1 square inch of land.

I don't think it's perfectly okay to keep 1.7 million people behind a fence, but that was never the case until suicide bombers turned Israel into hell on earth for the first 4-5 years of the 21st century. Between the 2 choices (hell on earth and a fence) the choices are both bad, but the hell on earth is worse. It's an easy choice.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

188. Do you always have problems with comprehension?

Where did I say Israel WANTS to annihilate Palestinians? I said that Israel may have no other choice. (Read your own reply after OTOH) Israel has had to deal with suicide bombers within its borders for as long as I can remember.

So, shira what's your solution?

[shira]

191. You wrote what Israel does is criminal and that they'd seriously consider annihilation...

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:41 PM - Edit history (1)

What else am I to take from your own words?

You never said Israel "may" have no other choice.

I don't know the solution. Egypt's in a major bind economically. They need western assistance badly, so if they could be used to reign in Hamas, that could work for a while. Israel re-taking the border b/w Egypt and Gaza might help somewhat in destroying the tunnel network (arms transfers). Another operation Defensive Shield (like in 2004) could also be in the works for Gaza instead of the WB with maybe a well-armed PA taking over after Hamas is defeated. I don't know.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

202. I am not your enemy...nor Israel's.

"Israel has to make a decision, either they find a way to live with the Palestinians or they annihilate them." I think that pretty much indicates choice. BTW: Ariel Sharon's son made headlines today saying Gaza needs to be flattened, bulldozed...Do you think he wants it done with marshmallows and feathers? I believe that the mere fact that this hasn't already been done is a testimony to the humanity of Israelis who remember their own bitter past only too well.

Is it or is it not criminal to move onto lands to which you have no claim? Lands given to the Palestinians? Was it criminal for the United States to arbitrarily slaughter over 100,000 Iraqis because 19 terrorists killed almost 3,000 Americans on 9/11/2011? Of course it was. Israeli deaths 3, Palestinian deaths 90+. Are you trying to argue that Palestinian lives are worth less than those of Israelis? I don't think you really believe that. And, I think I sense your frustration.

You read my posts looking for proof that I am somehow anti-Israel or worse, anti-Semitic. I assure you I am neither. I am simply someone who sees the suffering on both sides, shares your frustration and wishes fervently that people would begin to recognize that both sides have real and legitimate complaints.

When I was about 16 I read a book entitled "While 6 Million Died" it forever altered my perception of the United States as a moral nation. Since then I have often wondered just how much more peaceful the world would be if America had opened its doors during the 1930s and then again after WWII. Partitioning Palestine was never a good idea...but the world didn't want the few surviving Jews so a "solution" depriving Palestinians of land they had occupied for generations was put in place. As an atheist, I have no patience with the Biblical homeland meme, sorry.

I also have no patience for the dithering done by the US government...and not just this administration. I think it would have been more valuable for the US to say, "Our ally Israel is under attack, therefore we are sending the USS whatever carrier fleet you like into the Mediterranean and we will be shipping (oh maybe) $2 billion in assorted ordnance to Israel ASAP" rather than the mealy mouthed
'Hopefully we can achieve a cease-fire' If the Palestinians are too stupid to be scared out of their minds by our presence on their doorstep, then perhaps Mr. Sharon is right. As Machiavelli pointed out, it is better to be feared than loved....and the Palestinians are never going to love the Israelis. Because the entire debate is always carried out by the extremes of both sides, the solution will eventually be bloody and awful, I fear.

Right now Israel is in the unfortunate position of a changing American attitude....We have a tendency to root for the underdog and now that Palestine is viewed as the underdog there is an increasing chorus of "Poor little Palestine" I know it must drive you crazy. But, you will not win a debate either here on DU in any other liberal/progressive forum if you consistently refuse to recognize the grievances of the Palestinians.

I wish you Peace shira, for you and Israel.

[Daemonaquila]

56. Not here. Happily condemning Israel, though.

Thugs who bomb, shoot, and abuse an occupied people into oblivion get what they deserve when their victims lob some explosives their way.

[Shaktimaan]

99. So you think...

that because of Israel's past history oppressing the Gazans, they now deserve to have war crimes perpetrated against them?

Several years ago Israel withdrew from Gaza, taking with them all of their soldiers, settlers, settlements, checkpoints, control of their Egyptian border and so on, leaving behind only the greenhouses that were purchased by US philanthropists and donated to the Palestinians. A few hours after the withdrawal was completed, the Palestinians resumed firing rockets against Israeli civilian towns.

At what point does Israel have the right of freedom from rocket fire against them? Since they "deserve this" (on that note btw, why do the innocent Israeli civilians killed by these rockets "deserve what they get&quot , does Israel have the right to defend itself with force IYO? Can Israel do ANYTHING at all to prevent this IYO? Or do they just deserve this for past actions and must take their medicine without doing anything to stop it?

[shira]

119. Appreciate your honesty. n/t

[frylock]

58. i condemn the hamas terror, just as i condemn the IDF's terror..

now can you shut the fuck up already?!

[shira]

120. That's like saying you condemn Nazi Germany just as you do the USA....

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:18 AM - Edit history (1)

...now just STFU because it's as simple as that!

Hamas not only victimizes its women, gays, and christians but also hides behind/among children used as shields, and using children as militants.

But no condemnation of that, right?

Israel is just as bad for defending against Hamas.

[frylock]

146. uhhh the IDF would be the nazis in your scenario, sport..

i mean, if were talking pure body counts here, israel has scoreboard. as was stated up thread, there's no having a reasonable discussion with you likudbaggers.

[shira]

178. Then how do you explain the IDF's record WRT civilians? UN records show...

..their civilian to combatant kill ratio is better than any other military in the history of warfare. It was 1:1 during OCL in Gaza 4 years ago, compared to 3:1 or 4:1 civilians to combatants for the USA, UK, and NATO. What kind of Nazis take that much care to not kill civilians?

Meanwhile Hamas very loudly declares they want Jews annihilated in their own style of genocide. If not for Iron Dome, early warning systems, and bunkers, thousands more Israelis would be dead. It's not for lack of effort by Hamas that there aren't more Israeli dead.

What's ironic is that you see yourself as progressive when you take up Hamas' ultra rightwing propaganda talking points, denying/ignoring all the evil they do to women, children, gays, and christians. That's worse than any tea bagger. I cannot imagine Marx, Engels, or Luxemberg defending the ghoulish, theocratic, hate-filled ultra-rightwing actions of Hamas. They'd label you rightwing in a heartbeat.

[Arctic Dave]

85. Hamas. Israel. Smae thing different flags.

Both are terrorist. One just has more advanced ways of killing people.

[underthematrix]

103. Please tell me what happened.

I asked this question on another thread. What caused Israel to attack Gaza. Was there firing from Gaza?

[shira]

131. About a thousand rockets in the last year....

A couple hundred in the days leading up to Israel attacking.

[frylock]

148. rockets schmockets. how many deaths as a result of these bajillion rockets?

how many deaths from the assymetrical retaliation?

[shira]

180. Enough deaths. You want more? With no early warning systems, Iron dome...

...and thousands of bunkers, the results would be catastrophic.

You REALLY don't think Hamas is trying to kill as many as possible?

[frylock]

225. you're the one cheering on deaths here

[shira]

226. No, you and yours are the ones telling Israelis to drop dead...

Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Just lie back and enjoy the rockets.

So tell me, how many would have to die to warrant a military reaction vs. Hamas? Do you want 100 Israeli dead? 1000? 20,000?

If you ask me, I think it's you guys who cheer when Palestinian kids are killed during combat. For some reason, it gets you all excited.

[Purveyor]

105. Not seeing a lot of 'love' here for the israelis. You might want to try again. eom

[shira]

121. True. The OP is correct. The humanitarians love Palestinians....

...not so much Israelis. Only one people can be victims.

[graham4anything]

108. I am Jewish. (American). And I am still furious at the Israeli Jews that killed Rabin.

Who knows what would have happened had Israeli JEWS not killed Rabin because it sure seems like Israeli Jews have their own agenda and don't want peace.

There was no other reason for his killing.

Have no comment on the current situation. There are no comments to make and there appear to be no answers.

to use a cliche Solomon would not be wise enough to figure an answer out here.

Maybe it will take another decade or two of inter-marriage or something.

though I do get annoyed at people here in the states who stereotype Wall Street/Bankers/Jews together. But that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[elleng]

110. Maybe where it should be.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021847300

[Alamuti Lotus]

112. I elect against condemnation of them at the present moment, and have no interest in your arguments

Yes, that's where things are at now. Save your breath, nobody is listening right now. Congratulations on managing to wipe out three generations of a family with just one bomb--check with Guinness(*), that must be some sort of record...not one that anybody should be proud of attaining, but there it is.

(*)--the world record's people, not the beer. Actually--no, call both.

[shira]

130. At the present moment and anytime besides the present moment. n/t

[kayecy]

134. And how do you defend Israel's actions?

How do you justify Israel starting up the violence again after a relative quiet period by assasinating Jabbari a week ago?

How do you justify the 90 Gazan deaths to date, half of them women and children?

[shira]

181. Israel has a right to self defense like any other nation, right? Or do you disagree?

Please answer that first.

As to civilian casualties, I trust the IDF based on OCL from 4 years ago. They're more careful WRT civilians than any other military in the history of warfare. Even now, the ratio of combatants to civilians is 1:1, far better than the USA, UK, and NATO at 3:1 or 4:1 in recent conflicts. Of course, I hope the IDF does even better.

[kayecy]

189. Yes, Israel has a right to self-defence but that is irrelevant......

Yes, Israel has a right to self-defence but that is irrelevant. Israel is not being attacked by a neighbouring state. It is at war with indigenous Palestinians living in an enclave that Israel has blockaded by land and sea since 2007.


Now can you answer my questions?

Q1. How do you justify Israel starting up the violence again after a relative quiet period by assasinating Jabbari a week ago?

Q2. How do you justify the 90 Gazan deaths to date, half of them women and children?

[shira]

190. A right to self-defense vs. Lebanon or Syria, but not Hamas. Right?

Since Hamas is not a neighboring state, Israel has no right to defend against them.

Yes?

========

1. Jabbari was a terrorist and there was no relative calm before he was killed (hundreds of rockets is not relative calm anywhere). There was nothing illegal about the operation (not an assassination) and it was as clean a kill as that of bin Laden.

2. I justify the IDF doing its best to target Hamas while keeping civilian casualties to a minimum in order to defend Israeli civilians. The IDF has proven beyond any doubt - other than to those willfully blind - that they try harder than anyone else to target only terrorists.

[azurnoir]

193. so Jabari was as clean a kill as Bin Laden? who elese was killed with Bin Laden?

Jabari was killed when an IAF missile struck the car he was traveling in, in the central Strip. One other person was killed in the attack.

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=291779

but never they were either deserving or a human shield right? Those seem to be the only people in Gaza those who deserve to die and those who are human shields they Israel kills accidentally because they apparently are unable to accurately target, while Hamas targets innocent Israelis with their high tech state of art equipment

[shira]

195. It really galls you that the IDF is more careful with civilians than any other military...

...in the history of warfare, doesn't it? The UN keeps the records, showing the ratio is 3:1 or 4:1 at best for the USA, UK, and NATO. But just 1:1 with the IDF.

You SO badly want to demonize the IDF for being bloodthirsty zombies, but it's getting much harder to do so, isn't it?

Need a kleenex?

[azurnoir]

196. nope that is not what galls me but do keep up the false accusations

they have become almost trademark

eta only 4 more to go until you make that 200 mark

[kayecy]

218. You are an innocent aren't you Shira?..........

Gaza is an impoverished enclave under Israeli blockade.

Hamas believes that the refugees in Gaza are the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine, NOT most Israelis. Hamas believes that Israel is not practicing self-defence, it is simply bent on the economic strangulation of the rightful residents of the whole of Palestine.

1. Jabbari was a terrorist and there was no relative calm before he was killed (hundreds of rockets is not relative calm anywhere). There was nothing illegal about the operation (not an assassination) and it was as clean a kill as that of bin aden

You are innocent aren't you Shira?.
See http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html

"Mr. Jabari enforced those cease-fires only after confirming that Israel was prepared to stop its attacks on Gaza. On the morning that he was killed, Mr. Jabari received a draft proposal for an extended cease-fire with Israel, including mechanisms that would verify intentions and ensure compliance. This draft was agreed upon by me and Hamas’s deputy foreign minister, Mr. Hamad, when we met last week in Egypt."

Israel knew Jabbari was helping to keep the calm by clamping down on the renegade rocket teams. But a ceasefire was not what Israel wanted, so it deliberately assassinated Jabbari knowing that would kill any proposals.

2. I justify the IDF doing its best to target Hamas while keeping civilian casualties to a minimum in order to defend Israeli civilians. The IDF has proven beyond any doubt - other than to those willfully blind - that they try harder than anyone else to target only terrorists.

I do not necessarily disagree with you about the IDF....It was the Israeli government that instructed the IDF to bomb Gaza, knowing that dozens of children would almost certainly be killed. It was the Israeli government who callously chose to kill Gazan children rather than engage in diplomacy with Hamas.

If you had any human feelings you would be joining in the protests against the Israeli bombardment.

[shira]

230. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you say Israel has no right to defend....

...like any other nation against Hamas and their rockets? No one with human feelings would demand Israelis just lie back and take hundreds or thousands of rockets.

You're also assuming with no evidence but Hamas' say-so (of course Hamas never lies) that Jabbari was interested in negotiating a ceasefire.

[kayecy]

234. You know that is not what I said, why prevaricate?......

You know that is not what I said, why prevaricate?......I said that it is nonsense to talk about self-defence when you are faced with a resitance movement.......No other western democracy would dream of bombing a refugee community.


You're also assuming with no evidence but Hamas' say-so (of course Hamas never lies) that Jabbari was interested in negotiating a ceasefire.
Are you just ignorant of the evidence which is all over the internet or do you just want to stick your hand in the sand?....Israel knew what Jabbari was up to and still decided to assassinate him.

So far you have produced no evidence to contradict me...You would rather believe Israeli propaganda than search for the truth.....Go ahead and fool yourself.

[shira]

236. What's the difference b/w no right to self-defense vs. not dreaming....

...of doing a military operation against Hamas in a "refugee community"?

There's no evidence except for Hamas' say-so that Jabari was interested in a ceasefire. I mean get real. Jabari is like a bin Laden to Israel. Neither one of those fuckers would be interested in negotiating anything.

[kayecy]

239. Go on.......Keep sticking your head in the sand.....

"There's no evidence except for Hamas' say-so that Jabari was interested in a ceasefire. I mean get real. Jabari is like a bin Laden to Israel. Neither one of those fuckers would be interested in negotiating anything."

I did not quote Hamas. If you are not prepared to accept an on-the-spot account published in publications like The New York Times and Haaretz, what are you prepared-to accept as evidence?.....Israeli Government Propaganda?

You are clearly not interested in finding out exactly why Jabbari was assassinated, just as you are clearly not prepared to check whether Israel might, just might, not be as open with the world as you imagine........

Go on sticking your head in the sand.....You might learn something if you take it out.....

[Alamuti Lotus]

179. No, there have been plenty of criticisms in the past

And you would know that if you weren't just some propaganda troll bot, possibly put here for my amusement only.

Never much cared for them, really. Much prefer the old PFLP under Habash, but that's neither here nor there.

At the present moment, however, there will be none of that. I hope they fire a rocket straight up Bibi's mouth, catching the old crossdresser terrorist Ehud at the same time.

[Bok_Tukalo]

144. Wow

[img][/img]

[frylock]

147. you've got your condemnation. do you want it fucking notarized?

what level of condemnation will get you to quit your fucking whining? what exactly are you looking for, aside from attention? is their a form or petition you'd like us to sign to formalize this?

[shira]

182. You think the OP is whining? Untrue? Or what? n/t

[frylock]

224. yeh, i do

[silhouete2]

153. The problem with this whole thing is

that both sides claim that they are victims, both sides claim they are defending themselves--and both sides claim that they are in the right. I have found that in situations like this there are 3 sides to the story---one side, the other side and then there is the truth. Neither side is morally superior in this situation. BOTH sides use propaganda to further their agenda. The fact that ANY innocent people--be they Israeli or Palestinian--have died over this stuff is reprehensible. Unfortunately, this thing will never be resolved until one side wipes out the other. You can be mad that people don't condemn one side or the other--but people are entitled to agree or disagree with you. That is their right. You don't have to like it, but that's life.

[1StrongBlackMan]

156. This very thread ...

is an exemplar for WHY there will be no peace in the Middle East ... Both sides say we are the victims of the others' atrocities; neither side is willing to: 1) stop throwing bombs, and 2) recognize/listen to why the other side is throwing their bombs.

[shira]

240. If you believe there's a genuine reason Hamas (the other side) is bombing Jews....

...then all you're doing is justifying their commitment to kill the Jews.

Hamas has made it clear MANY times that no matter what Israel does, Hamas will not recognize Israel and live at peace alongside it. They really are serious about killing a lot of Jews.

[Recursion]

174. All over the place, from all corners. Next question? (nt)

[ret5hd]

203. Quit taking their land.

[TheMadMonk]

212. IIRC this (current) mess started when Israel saw an opportunity...

...to take out a Hamas leader and blew up his car, on top of yet another land grab for settlement.

Hamas responded.


"Countless children have barely known a day of peace in their lives"?

Excuse the fuck me? What about the Palestinian kids? Three generations now have grown up in middle of what is essentially a bomb range which they can not leave. They don't have the luxury of bomb shelters. In terms of being bloodily dismembered by the other side's bullets, bombs and rockets, somewhere in the vicinity of 100 Palestinian kids die for every Israeli child. In terms of denial of basic healthcare and nutrition, the exchange rate is thousands to one.

If the childhood of an Israeli child is "inhumane", then exacty how the fuck should we characterise the life of a Palestinian kid?


The author of this peice is a Human Right's Lawyer? WTF? For the defence?

[David__77]

214. Israel has sovereignty over Gaza and West Bank but abdicated its security responsibilities.

It removed its state forces and dismantled state administration in those areas. What else would be expected?

[aquart]

227. Not here. Ever.

Bus blew up. Hamas hands are sweet and clean because the nasty Jews deserve it.

Hamas is an elected government. The Gazans chose them. Elections, I hear, have consequences.

[shira]

228. No shit. They can do no wrong no matter the evidence....

Who says there is no tacit support and apologists for Hamas among the anti-Israel community?