Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumHamas can do no wrong, Israel is EEEE-vil and can do no right.
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Drale
(7,932 posts)Neither sides leadership wants peace, that is very clear.
The absolutism on each side -- and the stripping of humanity from "The Other" -- guarantees the cycle of violence continues....
aquart
(69,014 posts)And then post your plan to implement it in the Palestinian/Israeli context.
Simplistic statements are so vilely useless.
Drale
(7,932 posts)I don't have plan I'm just pointing out there will never be piece in the area until all the war mongering and land grabbing stops.
Hamas and the Israeli Center-Right are barely morally distinguishable.
Neither leadership has any real legitimacy.
Both countries need revolutions-from-within, but on their own terms.
shira
(30,109 posts)Are they barely indistinguishable from Hamas, a grotesquely ultra-rightwing theocratic organization that:
a) Uses children as militants and human shields
b) Hides terrorists shooting from abulances, schools, and hospitals
c) Calls for genocide of Jews
d) shoots rockets into Israel in attempts to kill civilians (every one a war crime)
e) hates on women, gays, and christians
f) advocates for sharia law and all the human rights violations it entails
Remember, Israeli centrists don't have a stomach for anything more than a 1:1 civilian to combatant kill ratio (still better than the 3:1 or 4:1 from the USA, UK, and NATO).
But they're just as bad, eh?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Does that make the Majority of Israelis closeted republicans, and if so why who cares what they think?
Poll: Most Israeli Jews back Romney, most Israeli Arabs support Obama
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=majority%20of%20israel%20backs%20romney&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fnews%2Fu-s-elections-2012%2Fpoll-most-israeli-jews-back-romney-most-israeli-arabs-support-obama-1.472768&ei=r8qqUNqtD4qH0QGBzIFA&usg=AFQjCNERsFcGXBPoEEGfOUSglW_aDBqAgg&cad=rja
Israel backs Romney but Palestinians indifferent
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jXf40dZG-JVmsiqwqFXS3skfcDZA?docId=CNG.5ec594d82f283e38af44aa42538f47b4.451
Israel's Binyamin Netanyahu bets on Mitt Romney winning US presidency
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/22/israel-binyamin-netanyahu-mitt-romney
85% of Israelis are for the IDF operation right now....So yeah, a majority of Israelis may be republican-endorsing aholes.
I'm curious. Who did you endorse for POTUS?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I think that 70% is low because turnout in NY and NJ was much lower than normal. I also saw that( Correct me if I am wrong) that Israeli support for A ground invasion is only at 30%.
shira
(30,109 posts)4 years ago, American Jewish support for OCL when it started was well over 90%.
I'm guessing it's well over 75% now.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)... wrong, and the numbers prove it.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)war.
shira
(30,109 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)are doing now, but support goes down on the idea of a ground war. I think the reason for that is because that nobody wants a ground war.
shira
(30,109 posts)Because if the goal is the same as 4 years ago, it's pointless.
shira
(30,109 posts)So is Obama an asshole like 85% of Israelis he agrees with?
I voted Obama, duh.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)You should know better than to imply that I would...or that much of anyone who opposes this war would do so.
shira
(30,109 posts)...that is arguably the worst (Hamas)?
Seems you do so by sanitizing Hamas while exaggerating what the IDF does. To make them both equally bad. But why would you do that?
subsuelo
(4,002 posts)
atreides1
(16,799 posts)It all depends on your own personal viewpoint...
teddy51
(3,491 posts)just as evil and barbaric. They both have this thing about life not being important enough to make an effort to save. I just don't understand that thinking.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Israel, with a population of only 8 million belonging to a minority religion with no worldwide strength, tries to save every Israeli life it can. Most of the time they even try to save Palestinian lives for which they are given zero credit. But who else implements an economic embargo after carefully working out life-sustaining calorie counts to make sure none of the people they despise starves? Who else responds to murderous terror attacks by merely tearing down houses?
Hamas, happy purveyors of suicide vests and missile launchpads in populated areas, are NOT the same as the Israelis and it is either disgusting prejudice or deliberate ignorance that says so.
teddy51
(3,491 posts)boat at sea and slathered them and some execution style.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It is not morally superior to the other sides(both are vile).
The purpose of the attack is to prevent change and ultimately, to create the conditions for re-occupying Gaza(something Israeli leaders STILL think they have the right to do, as they think they still have the right to perpetuate the West Bank Occupation while STILL, even within that, having the right to demand acceptance from their neighbors).
Nobody here likes Hamas, buddy...it's just that we don't think that they matter more than everything else. Israeli leaders would still oppose a Palestinian state next to theirs...as they did consistently between 1967 and 1994, an era when Hamas was of no importance on the Palestinian scene at all. It's all still about the belief that the Palestinians aren't a real people and a real nation...just part of the imaginary "unrelenting Arab plot" that CAMERA/FLAME has been foaming at the mouth over for decades now in its lie-based campaign against peace.
I condemn the rockets...but the rockets don't give the Israeli side sanction to do what they're doing to Gaza.
shira
(30,109 posts)Every other country has that right.
Just not Israel.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)no justifiable right to keep Palestinians down you try and change the subject into something the argument doesn't mention.
shira
(30,109 posts)...then feel free to ask.
BTW, what's your suggestion for Israel WRT defending its civilians from thousands of Hamas rockets?
Just curious.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)a people (that is ALL of Palestine) that they view through a myopic colonialist lens. The UN should take over jurisdiction of the West Bank and Gaza and demilitarize it by gunpoint while Israel pulls all of its citizens out of the West Bank.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... who believe they can get everything they want through tantrums.
I wonder if this fictional UN force of yours will be as successful in demilitarizing the West Bank and Gaza as it was in demilitarizing Lebanon.
railsback
(1,881 posts)and stuck you in a little box on the sidewalk where you can see your former residence through a little hole, I'm sure you'd accept your fate without complaint.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Not to mention murdering every sane soul who says maybe we could come to a deal with Israel.
Or can't you remember back to the last purge Hamas carried out in the tail of an Israeli strike?
Why were those houses demolished? You don't like to think about that, do you? Because dead Israelis don't count. They deserve whatever they get, don't they?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Hamas took the majority of seats in the Palestinian Parliament and staged a coup in Gaza, it would seem as a long time I/P poster you would know this, so I must ask why are you promoting a nontruth or were you ignorant of the facts?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)railsback
(1,881 posts)Got it.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Compare this to what the same posters would say about the legitimacy of violence against a foreign invader on US soil.
The hypocrisy is staggering. I've read enough books to know that if you keep pushing hard enough you can make a terrorist, or a criminal, or a demagogue out of the best of people.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)And by whom?
Jews have been indigenous to Palestine for almost all of recorded history. Much longer than their Arab cousins. The Palestinians have been screwed over, that's for sure, but not by Israel. They've been screwed over by a callous Arab leadership for over 60 with promises that the Jews will go away if they refuse to compromise with them.
If there is EVER going to be a chance for peace, the false accusation of "stealing land" have to stop and so do the rockets.
railsback
(1,881 posts)Sure, the Jews are indigenous in Palestine, but when did they start becoming Jews? People have been indigenous to that region for thousands of years. At the beginning of the 20th century, the Jews began a horrific gentrification of the Arabs, and the indigenous Palestinians ended up prisoners in their own country. Every day, their 'reservations' get pinched even further, as Jewish settlements continue to expand and push them further into smaller areas. 3/4 of the land alloted to them after WW2 is gone. Why can't they just be like the American Indians and accept their fate? Its the American way, right? When oppressed, just slink off and grumble?
The only thing false is Israel.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)You did post "Bull effin' crap". I suggest you actually read the history of the region.
railsback
(1,881 posts)Zionist Benny Morris isn't the only one writing about Israel.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)but I have never seen one support your unique line of thinking...citations?
railsback
(1,881 posts)Nurit Peled-Elhanan makes a strong case of how the Israeli government functions like a Ruper Murdoch entity, complete with textbooks that program the younger generations into believing that murdering Palestinians is necessary. Pure propaganda. FOX Nation.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)
COLGATE4
(14,886 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Surely you're kidding? Jews have been Jews for 4,000 years. We didn't start "becoming Jews" at the beginning of the 20th century? I don't know what you've been reading but getting your history lessons from Stormfront or whatever vile website you've been frequenting is not going to get you far.
railsback
(1,881 posts)So the Jews have only been 'indigenous' for 4000 years. That must have been when that region suddenly sprung up from the depths of Earth. I need to get ahold of some of those Texas textbooks.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Says all we need to know about you.
Thanks
railsback
(1,881 posts)Same thing.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Can you be more specific?
railsback
(1,881 posts)Specific, like in you need it spelled out? Sure. You people, like those people who believed Romney was going to win by a landslide just because FOX told them so... i.e. a one sided argument based on one side.
King_David
(14,851 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
We know who is being kicked out of their house and by whom.
railsback
(1,881 posts)think its just fine and dandy to have your belongings confiscated. Its unsettling.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)about self-defense when it comes to home invasion or foreign invasion of the US somehow seem to think that this argument is only open to non-palestinians.
Further, they also have absolutely no problem in evoking the argument that self-defense is just - as long as Israel is defending itself. Anything that the "palestinians" do though, is nefarious, and is never seen in the context of a people having lost their land.
It boggles the mind. Mine, at least.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)about today's events are you attempting to justify something? Infolive.tv is rather shadowy in it real origins and despite the vids being posted in past 4 years they are years older than that were you ignorant of that fact too?
Archae
(47,245 posts)Palestinian TV is so saturated with vicious propaganda, like in the videos, even kids' TV extols jihad and killing Jews.
I just saw today that Hamas has shown their true colors on any negotiations.
They are demanding that the "Iron Dome" anti-missile shield be dismantled, they call it an "offensive weapon."
Yeah, it's offensive all right, it stops those TERROIST WEAPONS, the rockets Hmas refuses to stop launching against Israeli civilians.
But like I said, "Hamas can do wrong, and Israel can do no right."
And Israel is not a terrorist organization. Hamas is.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)thanks for informing us of that keep up the good work
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What you have here is a straw-man accusation, backed up by decade-old video. You don't actually offer any avenue for meaningful discussion on any level. Just this "LOL Y U LUV HAMAS HAMAS R BAD D00D" sort of vapid nothing.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)from about four years ago. Farfour is no more, but al-Aqsa TV continues to produce the program in the Gaza Strip.
In an example of life imitating art, the Israelis bombed the TV station yesterday, which is in downtown Gaza city.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/19/israel-airstrike-al-aqsa_n_2158108.html?utm_hp_ref=world
Apparently one journalist lost his leg in the bombing. The Israelis also bombed and destroyed the building in 2009.
A TV broadcast channel is only considered a legitimate target if it is being used for military purposes. Otherwise, an attack on media facilities (even those arguably used for distributing propaganda) is a war crime.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and I believe IDF bombed the station again today for good measure ya know
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)he's fucked now, pardon my French.
How dare you imply that we're only good for shooting you and bombing you? Take that! BOOM!
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Yes, Farfour the mouse died a martyr's death to be replaced by his cousin, a Bee (not sure how that works), called Nahoul.
The character of Farfour met with a lot of indignation but it wasn't until confronted by a superior military force -- Disney's Lawyers threatened to sue them for copyright infringement -- that they backed down and took him off the air.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)I bought a charming Mickey Mouse-themed Christmas dickie from a souk in Gaza one afternoon and woke up the next morning in the watch-house with a concussion.
I suppose the fact that Mickey's ears were bright green should have been a giveaway, but really, I thought the waterboarding was a bit excessive. Not to mention Donald having his dirty way with me.
unreadierLizard
(475 posts)when people make mention of the 25+ Israelis killed by Hamas rockets in the last few days and basically imply that more Israelis need to die before they condemn it because "Israels killed more then they've lost it's not fair".
Even though Hamas is well known for hiding senior leaders in residential areas, so they can use the people there as meat-shields to hopefully escape harm.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well I guess this is another example of the M$M ignoring Israeli deaths, could you please provide us with a link to those 25 dead as you claim?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)The media feels the need to mention Israeli casualties (there have been only three deaths in Israel) whenever it mentions Palestinian casualties, which are many.
The equivalence given to coverage leads to a perception that there must be equivalence in numbers and that "25+" Israelis must have died in the conflict.
And this is on Democratic Underground, of all places. Out there in the heartland it must be immeasurably worse.
CNN released an interesting poll today. Support for the Israeli actions is highest amongst elderly, white, male, conservative Republicans and lowest amongst self-identified liberals, although it remains fairly high across the board.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/11/19/rel17a.pdf
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)here in the heartland of the US most people to honest are DGaS (don't give a sh*t) about what's happening in Israel and if asked will intone "those people have been killing each other since the bible" with a 
but I myself am not sure if the poster I was addressing actually thinks that there were 25 Israeli's killed or what
as to the rest the acronym PEA (progressive except for Arabs) applies IMO
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Yeah, I read the New Republican
Rolling Stone and Mother Jones too
If I vote it's a democrat
With a sensible economy view
But when it comes to terrorist Arabs
There is no one more red, white, and blue
So love me, love me, love me,
I'm a liberal
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but do you the chords for that 
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I needed a laugh about now too 
DaniDubois
(154 posts)No more settlement occupation into Palestine, no more issues. It's sad that anyone is dying over land, but more people died from peanut allergies in Israel than hamas rocket fire. In Gaza it's the children, and it's many.
Define the borders.
railsback
(1,881 posts)Israel won't stop until the Palestinians are gone.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... who did you think they're firing rockets at? Soldiers?
This one-sided outrage is really obscene.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Let's try not to be outrageous, then? Noted.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There are also no settlements in Gaza.
In the West Bank, where these issues do exist, no rockets are being fired from the Palestinian side and no attack is occurring or forthcoming from the Israeli side.
This is only happening in and from Gaza.
aandegoons
(473 posts)Sad this is even worse than the gungeon. Where they would murder for a cell phone.