Palestinian Prisoners' Rights Activist Detained, Tortured In Israeli prison

[Purveyor]

Nasser, 42, was arrested on October 15 in a nighttime raid by armed soldiers and attack dogs on his house in the village of Saffa in the Ramallah district. According to Physicians for Human Rights, Nasser was taken into custody after a prolonged search in his house and a brief interrogation, during which his wife and four children were held at gunpoint in a different room.

His interrogation by Shin Bet agents went on for 39 days, with sessions lasting up to 20 hours a day, all through which Nasser had his hands tied to the back of the chair and his legs tied to the legs of the chair. Nasser later reported to his lawyers that throughout this period he was held in isolation, he did not receive sufficient medical care for his pain nor for the lapses of disorientation from which he suffered. PHR has so far not been allowed to send an independent doctor to examine Nasser.

About a week ago, the military prosecution filed an indictment with fairly mild accusations against Nasser. The main charge was his alleged membership in the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), which is considered an illegal organization by Israel. Evidence for this membership is derived from the other four charges, which state that Nasser allegedly assisted in organizing and participating in two “illegal” PFLP rallies in Ramallah, one in support of Palestinian prisoners, and the other in memory of former PFLP leader, Abu-Ali Mustafa, assassinated by Israel in 2001.

Nasser, who works as a researcher for Addameer, rejects accusations of membership in the PFLP, stating that he had no part in the Mustafa rally. He confirmed his participation in the Palestinian Prisoners’ Day rally – which was not a PFLP event but rather a national day of protest and solidarity and has been for quite some time. This year’s rally took place in the midst of a prolonged hunger strike of administrative detainees in Israeli prisons, and marked the start of a new collective hunger strike of...

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http://972mag.com/palestinian-prisoners-rights-activist-detained-tortured-in-israeli-prison/61607/

[azurnoir]

1. well Israeli courts in the West Bank have a 99.7% rate of conviction

against Palestinians so they must be right

[Scootaloo]

2. No kidding?

if that were a Los Angeles court there'd be a 24/7 vigil outside and FBI investigations into the judges.

[kayecy]

3. Any of our Zionist members like to contribute?......Shira perhaps?...........n/t

[pelsar]

4. i will...

According to Physicians for Human Rights, Nasser was taken into custody after a prolonged search in his house and a brief interrogation, during which his wife and four children were held at gunpoint in a different room.

standard practice.....search the house, put everybody in a separate room so that it can be done quickly and quietly. Soldiers carry guns, so "at gunpoint" is obvious.

interrogations and disorientation?...thats the idea behind it..information comes when the person is disoriented.
was the guy actually tortured? put on the rack?...obviously not.

this is part where the intelligence comes from, that connects the dots that tells the Israeli intelligence where the bombs are before they get delivered to the busses...making them uncomfortable vs saving lives and limbs, each will chose what his own values are.

as far as his "civil rights" go, as i assume that might come up, anybody who is pushing for a Palestinian State today, that clearly will not have western civil rights as a component of its society, based on their present govts, doesn't get much credibility from me.
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but i'm just a blood thirsty zionist - terrorist according to many of the members here.....something i assume you agree with given the silence of that post.

[kayecy]

5. Thank you pelsar, perhaps you would comment on the following:

Thank you pelsar, perhaps you would comment on the following:

....in a nighttime raid by armed soldiers and attack dogs on his house in the village of Saffa in the Ramallah district

Isn't Ramallah iin Area A?........Was there a serious security issue here?......Did attack dogs have to be used?.....

His interrogation by Shin Bet agents went on for 39 days, with sessions lasting up to 20 hours a day, all through which Nasser had his hands tied to the back of the chair and his legs tied to the legs of the chair.

Pretty strong stuff when it only results in a charge of being a member of a banned organisation isn't it?....Would the IDF use the same tactics on an Israeli in a similar situation?

.....during which his wife and four children were held at gunpoint

Soldiers carry guns of course, but do they have to point them?....I have been stopped by armed soldiers of several states (including Syria) and never once has a gun been pointed at me.

.....something i assume you agree with given the silence of that post.

I explained that my response to that post was an error.......If I see KG repeating the statement, I will of course challenge it.......You obviously see such abusive statements as a greater issue than I do........I have been called much worse things than a blood-thirsty white guy.....I find it best to ignore abusive posts and the one making the abuse.

[pelsar]

6. i wouldnt know how much is truth...

vs actual events

I have yet to see a soldier actual point a gun at a family...."at gunpoint" interpret it as per your own preference, (we are after all blood thirsty....). I suspect it was the journalist writing for affect.

attack dog?......was the dog frothing at the teeth and the handlers had to hold him back, or was it a german shepherd there to sniff out explosives?...which is what they are trained for.

how would i know what the security issue was?...its not exactly advertised now is it?

Pretty strong stuff when it only results in a charge of being a member of a banned organisation isn't it?
pretty much depends on the information he gave up and how many lives were saved now doesnt it?....if the information saved 5 lives is 39 days worth it? if the information saved 1 life? how about 100....you tell me what is the proper ratio of lives saved to days of being tied up...well?

He's not really going to admit what he said, now is he?...maybe he's now a spy for the shin bet who traded an operation for his dying mother for information and he sat in an easy chair for 39 days eating pizza and coke?
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as far as the comment of blood thirsty...it wasnt aimed at you it was for the others. I have no problem personally with such post being aimed at the "group" that i identify with, i just assume that all the nice progressives here would want to explain to the nice posterette that such generalities are not acceptable here....after all we cant call nationalistic Palestenians blood thirsty terrorists now can we? i was wrong

[kayecy]

7. And if Shin Bet got no useful information?......

....if the information saved 5 lives is 39 days worth it? if the information saved 1 life? how about 100....you tell me what is the proper ratio of lives saved to days of being tied up...well?

And if whoever "informed" on Nasser was making it up merely to get even for a petty insult.....And if Shin Bet got no useful information.....What then?......Oh, of course......Nasser would be merely just another Palestinian suspect wrongly accused........Why should Sin Bet care that an innocent man was made to suffer "interrogations and disorientation" for 40 days to no purpose?

The Shin bet are not really going to admit that the man was innocent now are they?

...maybe he's now a spy for the shin bet who traded an operation for his dying mother for information and he sat in an easy chair for 39 days eating pizza and coke?

What a callous statement!.........No doubt you think the Shin Bet tactic of withholding medical treatment from someone under Israeli occupation is not in breach of the Geneva Convention?

[pelsar]

8. they all lie....thats the business model....

you didnt answer the question...its was simple and direct question of values and principle:
I'll repeat in case the dilemma is too difficult: btw its called the ticking bomb dilemma

how may days of being tied up to save lives?..this is on the assumption that the shin bet got the right guy.

if you dont want to answer or you can't, just say so.......but then you can leave the moral sermons to somebody else, since knowing there is information out there that can and will save lives and your afraid of making somebody uncomfortable in order to get that information is simply immoral and callous beyond belief in my book


and callous for trading medical treatment to save one womens life for information that will save others as well?...i would say your the callous one, giving the option to save many, you say thats immoral and they should take their chances and die....

[kayecy]

9. I forgot....Equality under the law means nothing to you.........

btw its called the ticking bomb dilemma ........how may days of being tied up to save lives?..this is on the assumption that the shin bet got the right guy.

It's also called the GITMO dilemma.......And the answer is the same for the CIA, Shin Bet and any other secret service that thinks it can break it's own government's laws on detention without trial......YOU DON'T break the law just because you are outside US or Israeli civil jurisdiction no matter how many lives might be saved.

I am sure Israeli law does not allow for Israelis to be interrogated without trial for 40 days, therefore you do not do it to people under Israeli occupation either.

There are ways of changing the law to achieve the desired objective but it must apply to everyone.....Israeli citizen or Palestinian living under Israeli military occupation.

and callous for trading medical treatment to save one womens life for information that will save others as well?...i would say your the callous one, giving the option to save many, you say thats immoral and they should take their chances and die....

And to hell with the Geneva Convention?........

[pelsar]

10. i didn't ask for a lawyers interpretation ....i asked for your own opinion

this is not about someone elses version of morality..i'm asking for yours...dont subcontract it out. (the nazis had laws too, so did the soviets, so does N.Korea, Iran... doesn't mean they were/are moral laws)

whats your opinion, your morals

again if you cant answer, you don't have a personal opinion, you dont want to go to areas of moral dilemmas, just say so, but dont bother sermonizing to those us who actually have our own opinions.

[kayecy]

16. I suggest it is you who have your moral values confused...... ..... .......

I didn't ask for a lawyers interpretation ....i asked for your own opinion

You got my own opinion......I have no idea what you are talking about with your “lawyer’s interpretation” snide remark........Don’t hide behind bluff and bluster.......Come out with it.......What exactly do you think you are asking?

...this is not about someone elses version of morality..i'm asking for yours...dont subcontract it out.

What are you trying to say?.......What I said was based on my moral values, not some ‘subcontractor” whatever that means.

....again if you cant answer, you don't have a personal opinion, you dont want to go to areas of moral dilemmas, just say so,...

After the mini debates on the morality of Zionism that we have had in the past, you can’t seriously believe I don’t want to go into “areas of moral dilemmas”.


................................................
I suggest it is you who have your moral values confused......You approach the morality of the Shin Bet activity in a simplistic manner.......You said “....if the information saved 5 lives is 39 days worth it? if the information saved 1 life? how about 100....”

In your narrow view, the answer is obvious and yet you ignore completely the negative impact of night-time raids, long periods of interrogation involving disorientation and stress-positions.....Add that Shin Bet activity to the occupation, check-points, withholding taxes and the degrading subjugation of the West Bank population and you have perfect recipe for generating lots of terrorists.....How many Israeli lives would need to be saved to make it worthwhile for Shin Bet to try something other than its provocative intelligence gathering activities?....1, 5, 100?

We are both speculating on outcomes that must remain unknown.....The difference is that your methods have been used and refined by Israel for the last 40 years and yet peace is no closer now than in 1967......Only a fool continues to use tactics which, although perhaps successful in the short term, result in a negative impact on Israel’s long term security.

Israel will always have Arab neighbours....It can only have real long-term security if there is a reconciliation between it and them.

Shin Bet activity of the sort described in the article, may or may not have saved an Israeli life or two. It has almost certainly increased the terrorist recruiting pool and put back any long-term reconciliation.

[pelsar]

23. .....we should stop interfering.....

so until there is peace (which will not happen tomorrow), israel should just close up the shin bet/the raids and let those of islamic jihad, hamas etc just do what they want without any interference from Israel, just deal with the dead bodies after the fact, that would be the "moral thing to do."

that i believe is what you are saying for the immediate solution for the immorality of the shin bet, etc

if i have the wrong conclusion, that please explain what i didnt understand

[kayecy]

24. You are resorting to simplifications again.......

......israel should just close up the shin bet/the raids and let those of islamic jihad, hamas etc just do what they want without any interference from Israel, just deal with the dead bodies after the fact, that would be the "moral thing to do."

You are resorting to simplifications again.......No one is suggesting you close up Shin Bet overnight......Just order them to show more sensitivity, slow down the night-raids, reduce the interrogation periods, generally try and reduce the agro and above all show West Bank residents that Shin Bet abides by the law, that it treats them just as it would Israelis.

Since you have no idea how many terrorists have been stimulated by Shin Bet's present methods, you have no idea how many lives might be saved or lost in total by reducing the agro........What is clear is that 40 years of using aggressive methods (together with expansion of settlements) has merely pushed peace further down the line.....Continuing to do so will almost certainly produce another intifada at some point in the future, resulting in yet more deaths.

Israel seems to be bankrupt of ideas for promoting peace, and in fact seems more interested in wreaking vengeance on the Palestinians for daring to seek UN recognition.

[delrem]

11. "its called the ticking bomb dilemma"

As you demonstrate, anyone however ignorant of the specifics of the case, and in fact whatever the specifics of the case are, can pull it out of their ass at any time to justify any treatment of a prisoner they want. It's that convenient of a "dilemma".

I find it amazing the double standards that people can live with once they start rationalizing like that.

[oberliner]

12. "I find it amazing the double standards that people can live with"

Consider applying this to yourself.

[delrem]

13. for what reason, oberliner? nt

[pelsar]

14. the ticking bomb dilemma is very real

Last edited Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:21 AM - Edit history (1)

and israel has many people both alive and dead to prove that it exists.

however the question remains to be answered. Clearly kayecy won't answer it, hence her "outsourcing it" to some legal body for the answer....what is otherwise known as wimping out.

since you've joined the conversation, will you answer it? In this case were balancing making someone uncomfortable for 39 days vs information that may save lives, either directly or indirectly (jewish israelis, christians and muslim israelis, Palestinians in Gaza if you would like to add that)

whats more moral?....making someone uncomfortable or saving lives on both sides of the line?

[delrem]

15. see reply #11 nt

[pelsar]

18. which means what?

i have no idea what that means....

[delrem]

19. see reply #11 - close loop

[kayecy]

17. Making abusive, baseless statements without any foundation is not worthy of you...............n/t

[delrem]

20. well, pelsar doubled down and looped into it, times infinity.

[pelsar]

22. we call it wimping out...

its not new here....given a real life scenario that involves a little bit of moral complexity that might give israel a tiny bit of credit for not being some kind of evil "blood-thirsty" society

the nice "progressives" decide to "opp out" and avoid at all costs getting near such a scenario......
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or if i am wrong, just explain, the bandwidth is free