Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumUN Palestine expert Falk: Hamas like French resistance
The United Nation's Palestine expert has compared Hamas terrorists to fighters with the French resistance during the Holocaust.
Richard Falk, UN special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, made the comments in a piece posted on the Liberal Democrat Friends of Palestine website.
In an article that included repeated condemnations of Israel, Mr Falk asked his audience to "imagine the situation being reversed as it was during the Nazi occupation of France or the Netherlands during World War two".
"Resistance fighters were uniformly perceived in the liberal West as unconditional heroes, and no critical attention was given as to whether the tactics used unduly imperiled innocent civilian lives," he said.
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/101008/un-palestine-expert-falk-hamas-french-resistance
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ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Which, of course, puts Israel in the position of Nazi Germany.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Personally if I were to make a comparison, I would have gone with the Viet Minh, the FLN of Nigeria, or the Afghan Mujahideen.
But then I would probably end up having to explain who the hell they were. For better or worse, every nose-picking schoolkid knows about the Third Reich, but counting on them to know who the Mau Mau were is bound to be a hopeless endeavor; y'know how it goes, Eurocentrism in history and politics, and all.
shira
(30,109 posts)Falk is the same guy who:
1. Endorsed Gilad Atzmon's horrificly antisemitic book, The Wandering Who. You'll find that even Ali Abunimah calls Atzmon an anti-Semite.
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/palestinian-writers-activists-disavow-racism-anti-semitism-gilad-atzmon
2. Was just fired from the board of HRW for his blatantly racist views WRT Jews.
http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2012/12/18/human-rights-watch-expels-top-u-n-official-richard-falk/
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Defending would be saying he's right to make the comparison. He's not, I offered alternatives and surmised he's being intellectually lazy, to accommodate the intellectual laziness of others.
shira
(30,109 posts)He's not intellectually lazy.
He's done the Nazi comparison before, many times. And he's been corrected on it. He knows what he's doing.
Seriously, all you need to know is that Ali Abunimah and many pro-Palestinian activists revile Gilad Atzmon and his antisemitic book. But Falk endorses it, along with fellow anti-semites John Mearsheimer and Greta Berlin. All are non-apologetic about it.
That the UN still employs this POS goes to show what the UN is all about regarding I/P.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)He may "know what he's doing," but it's still intellectual laziness.
Also, spare me your tirades about the UN. I got my fill from your sort back in 2003, thanks.
shira
(30,109 posts)You don't have a problem with Falk being the UN appointed and current Special Rapporteur of Palestinian Human Rights?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)'Cause that's primary criteria. I don't agree with the hyperbole - but then I also don't agree with the actual enacted policies that hyperbole is trying to describe, either.
Who would you rather see in the role, perhaps? You seem to have loathed his predecessor, too, and I can't shake the feeling that no matter who fills the post, you would loathe them no matter what; After all, it's a position to monitor and report on the human rights of Palestinians. Can't imagine you ever supporting that.
shira
(30,109 posts)...totally OK with a racist creep like the UN's Falk.
How does that work for an anti-racist like yourself?
==========
And no, he's not doing his job well when he compares Hamas to the French resistance vs. Israel (Nazis). He never condemns Hamas in his role as Special Rapporteur of Palestinian Human Rights.
What do you think Hamas' Palestinian victims think of Hamas? French Resistance or the Nazis?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)We're in agreement that his apparent conflation of Israel with Nazis is out of line, which is the topic at hand, isn't it?
You've pointed out that he's apparently endorsed Gilad Atzmon's book - I haven't read the book, so I don't know what to make of that, whether it makes him a "racist creep" or not.
I have no idea what Hamas' Palestinian victims think of Hamas. I don't think "Nazi" is a valid comparison there, either, though.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jew hating zombies like Falk, Mearsheimer, Greta Berlin....
The protocols of Gilad Atzmon
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4147243,00.html
Read that and you'll see why so many leading Palestinian activists disavow Atzmon.
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/palestinian-writers-activists-disavow-racism-anti-semitism-gilad-atzmon
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)At least until I paw through the book myself. Just gotta find a way to get my mitts on it without wasting money on it. Hmm.
shira
(30,109 posts)And you'll find those quotes are accurate.
Here's Tony Greenstein's Review of Atzmon's Book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R1H64U0J1K2LMK
Greenstein couldn't possibly be more anti-Zionist as he often makes the Israel = Nazi comparison too.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)So I did the next best (...?) thing - started reading Atzmon's stuff elsewhere. His website, editorials, etc.
Wow. While I could grant that he seems able to occasionally make a decent point about something, I can cite about eight different writers who could make the same good point without trying to tie it all in to a weird "Jooz is the debbil!" narrative like Atzmon does. So no, I wouldn't hesitate to mark Atzmon a racist.
So, what of Richard Falk, who is the subject we're discussing?
I'm at least somewhat familiar with mr. Greenstein. So I popped over to his blog and did a search for "The Wandering jew" and the first result was an email exchange between Greenstein and Falk:
http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2011/12/richard-falk-expends-on-his.html
Falk comes off pretty much as I'd thought of him earlier in the thread - intellectually lazy. To the point where I wonder if he actually read the book he put his endorsement to. Greenstein tries to engage him, but it's sort of like punching a marshmallow, it just squishes back, indifferent to the whole thing.
Is Falk a racist? I haven't the material to make that call. But I've seen ruminants with more intellectual rigor than he seems to display.
Am I going to condemn the entire UN because someone with a vaguely bovine expression who slummed a book endorsement is employed by them? No.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Probably sage advice on most counts.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This poster believes that liberal/progressive Zionists do not (and cannot) exist.
shira
(30,109 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Over on Stormfront, there are plenty of white nationalists who believe in "progressive" ideas such as universal health care, gender equality, even a small few who believe orientation discrimination is bad thing! granted, they only want these progressive ideals applied to white people, but... hey! Jared Taylor, founder and editor of the magazine American Renaissance, rather magnanimously argues that Jews could be counted as "white" so that's progressive, right? Right? Jared Taylor, Progressive White Nationalist seeks endorsement of Oberliner, Progressive Jewish Nationalist.
If you base your foundation on race-based ideology, you are a racist. Racism is counter to progressivism. I don't know why this is hard for you to grasp.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I don't recall reading any of Gilad Atzmon's writings but from what I gather after looking at his home page and a sketchy synopsis or two I gather that
1. He is born an Israeli Jew,
2. Israel defines itself as a Jewish state,
3. He is intensely critical of Israel's ethical position in the I/P civil war.
E.g. when called a "self-hating Jew" he says then he's proud to be one, and this personal/cultural struggle melds with his political critique.
I'm being superficial here, just pointing out that there are "issues" which might make objectivity more difficult, and might make mistaken analysis easier.
In sum, a major focus or "hub" of his mistaken analysis seems to be that he makes a point of conflating the meaning of "Jewish" and "Zionist". Apparently his book (I haven't read it) "The Wandering Who?" makes a total mess of it because of this. The article at electronicintifada
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/palestinian-writers-activists-disavow-racism-anti-semitism-gilad-atzmon
explains how this conflation is totally antithetical to the goals and meaning of the Palestinian struggle.
Which brings me to my small point. I find it interesting that the 'Jewish/Zionist' conflation is multipurpose, even when those purposes are contradictory. That is, for purposes of one argument a person might castigate Gilad Atzmon for the inherent racism of his argument when he treats 'Zionist' and 'Jewish' as identical, esp. regarding I/P; and for purposes of another argument that same person might themselves assert that 'anti-Zionist' and 'anti-Semite' are identical, even tho' it'd take an extremely esoteric argument to justify any difference between
Zionist=Jewish and anti-Zionist=anti-Semite .
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)So as I said, I'm aware of the criticisms, but am for the moment indifferent either way.
And yes your small point is a good one. Intentional confusing and conflation of terms is a pretty standard tactic all around.
Dick Dastardly
(937 posts)"Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Is all my brain and body need
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Are very good indeed"
He was a member of the Blockheads
delrem
(9,688 posts)Response to delrem (Reply #15)
shira This message was self-deleted by its author.
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)He has already accused Israel of 'genocide' toward the Palestinians. As far as I'm concerned anyone who uses the G-word with regard to the actions of either side thereby loses all credibility.
tama
(9,137 posts)e.g. in connection to Europeans and Native Americans, or Nazi Germany and Jews, Gipsy etc., he loses all credibility?
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)The Native Americans were nearly wiped out. About two thirds of Europaean Jews, and one third of all Jews; and at least a quarter of Europaean Gypsies, were exterminated by the Nazis and their allies.
By contrast, the populations of both Israel and Palestine are actually increasing.
Just because something isn't genocide doesn't mean it's good of course; but the misuse of the word trivializes real genocides.
tama
(9,137 posts)Sometimes feeling empathy with suffering of others and sharing some of the pain, we become so overwhelmed with the emotion that our language becomes less accurate.
I have no reason to suspect that in this case the empathy is not genuine, or that there is intent to trivialize genocides in quantifiable sense. Rather, the word is used in qualitative emotional sense, how it feels to be victim of what g-word or some other better suited word refers to.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And then there's the unfortunate fact of there not being any good words to describe situations that don't fully mirror past experiences, so defaulting to the "next best thing" becomes standard and causes confusion as well.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)It is disappointing to see HRW's unwillingness to stand with those who are working to promote and defend human rights.
by Phyllis Bennis
When the UN Human Rights Council sends its independent investigators, known as Special Rapporteurs, around the globe to investigate the denial of various human rights, it's not unusual for governments accused of violating those rights to go pretty far to keep them out. "Richard Falk deserves the support of a human rights organisation, rather than endorsement of attacks by a group that stands against human rights," writes Bennis. (Photo: AFP)
So when Israeli security personnel detained Professor Richard Falk at Tel Aviv airport in December 2008, imprisoning him in a crowded, filthy jail cell overnight and expelling him the next day, it wasn't particularly surprising. Falk had recently taken on the role of United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, and Israel had made clear it had no intention of co-operating with his mandate or of implementing its obligations as a UN member to facilitate Falk's official missions. As the Occupying Power, Israel has for years responded with outrage to human rights criticism and, with US backing, has increasingly directly repudiated UN authority and legitimacy.
Perhaps it isn't even so unexpected that Falk - whose work has been scrupulously fair - has been criticised as well by Palestinian factions, including both Fatah and Hamas.
But it's pretty rare for Special Rapporteurs to face condemnation, insult, attack from high-ranking UN officials, including the Secretary-General, or powerful diplomatic actors from their home country - such as US representative to the UN, Ambassador Susan Rice. Since taking on the mandate nearly five years ago, Falk has faced those attacks and more.
Most of the attacks are the result of pressure campaigns launched by a small Geneva-based right-wing organisation called UN Watch. While hardly known outside of UN headquarters in Geneva, UN Watch has tried to make a name for itself among those bigger players also committed to undermining the United Nations and to uncritically defending every Israeli violation of human rights and international law. Undermining and delegitimising Richard Falk has been an obsession of UN Watch since he became Special Rapporteur.
Attempting to damage reputation
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/01/09-2
Foreign policy expert Phyllis Bennis
The director of the Institute for Policy Studies’ New Internationalism Project assesses the impact of foreign policy on the presidential campaign.
Phyllis Bennis has been a writer, analyst and activist on Middle East and U.N. issues for many years. She's a fellow of both Washington, DC's Institute for Policy Studies, where she's director of its New Internationalism Program, and the Transnational Institute in Amsterdam. She also helped found and remains on the steering committee of the U.S. Campaign to End Israeli Occupation and serves as an adviser to several top U.N. officials on Middle East and U.N. democratization issues. Bennis is the author of eight books, including Ending the US War in Afghanistan, and plays an active role in the global peace movement.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/interviews/phyllis-bennis/
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Falk is not the problem.
shira
(30,109 posts)Falk is the poster boy sanctimonious bigot.
And the anti-racist, pro-Palestinian contingent cannot be bothered by that.
Amazing.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)nor has he ever been. That responsibility belongs to the Israeli government.
At least 166 homes in Israeli settlement built on private Palestinian land
28 January 2013
By Chaim Levinson, Haaretz – 28 Jan 2013
www.haaretz.com/news/national/at-least-166-homes-in-israeli-settlement-built-on-private-palestinian-land.premium-1.496872
Haaretz has obtained a certified map of the West Bank settlement of Eli, drafted by the Civil Administration to clarify what lands could be included in zoning plan for settlement, which reveals the houses were built on Palestinian property.
At least 166 houses in the West Bank settlement of Eli were constructed on private Palestinian land, a recent survey by the Civil Administration revealed.
Eli was established in 1984 between Ramallah and Nablus, and within years it expanded into one of the larger settlements in the West Bank, reaching nine hilltops and widening its control over thousands of dunams of land.
Despite its growth, the settlement never had a legally approved urban plan – one plan that had been promoted in the past was halted due to its incursion on to private property. Houses in Eli could thus not be issued legal building permits, which led to several petitions being filed at the High Court of Justice.
Following pressure from the settlers, the government began working on a zoning plan for the settlement, which in turn led to comprehensive mapping by the Civil Administration to clarify what lands could be included in the plan.
Haaretz obtained a certified map of Eli’s borders, signed last November by the GOC Central Command, which reveals that 166 of the settlement’s houses were built on private Palestinian property. The survey also included aerial photographs dating back to 1970.
It should be noted that land in this area was never officially registered, and that ownership is dictated by Ottoman law, which determines that any land farmed for a period of 10 years is considered the legal property of its cultivator.
The 166 houses refer only to land that was examined as part of the survey, and did not include the adjacent outposts of Givat Haroeh and Palgei Mayim, home to some 80 houses.
According to the information obtained by Haaretz, the status of lands in these outposts is either private or state land. In some instances, like at the outpost Hayovel, the state is trying to retroactively legalize the outpost’s status by having the land declared state-owned land – despite an eight-year-old petition to the High Court which demands that illegal construction in the outpost be demolished.
A Civil Administration survey carried out a year ago determined that two houses in the settlement were built on private land, but Palestinians from the nearby village of Krayot argue that much more of the land is privately owned.
The Civil Administration has no plans at present to take action over Eli, but it might be forced to do so by the High Court of Justice, which has several petitions concerning illegal construction in the settlement on its table.
“The contemptible cooperation of the state with land theft in the West Bank is constantly growing,” said Dror Atkas, an activist aiding the petitioners. “They are trying to retroactively legalize whatever they can in order to enable massive future construction. At the same time, the state turns a blind eye to construction on private land and there is no way to legalize it.”
The Civil Administration responded: “Following the determination of jurisdiction, the authorities will examine any further steps required.”
Kobi Eliraz, chairman of Eli’s local committee, said in response: “The houses were not built on private land. Some of them might have been constructed on cultivated land by the state of Israel. The houses are within the boundaries decree signed at the time by [GOC Central Commander] Danny Yatom. It’s nice that now, 28 years later, the state is reducing the settlement’s size following rigorous inspections that show some of the land appear to have cultivated, without plaintiffs or trees.”
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2013-01-28/at-least-166-homes-in-israeli-settlement-built-on-private-palestinian-land/
shira
(30,109 posts)...to succeed Falk.
The problem isn't David Duke after all. It's not about his credibility WRT the I/P conflict.
It's about Israel.
Got it.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Happy hunting shira and have a nice day.
zellie
(437 posts)He's a miserable pos .
F¥<k him.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)has this job, considering that he's nuts.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)He has his job because he's nuts.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)The real equivalent to the French Resistance, in my view, are those Israelis and Palestinians who are working for peace between their two regions, against the reactionaries. Hamas and their particular ilk, are really the equivalent of the Waffen SS.....
