UN denies Abbas claims on Palestinians fleeing Syria

[shira]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/un-denies-abbas-claims-on-palestinians-fleeing-syria/

A spokesman for UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday denied that Israel had agreed to allow Palestinian refugees fleeing violence in Syria to enter the West Bank, directly contradicting claims made by PA President Mahmoud Abbas to that effect.

Abbas told press in Cairo January 9 that he had appealed Israel through the UN to allow 150,000 Syrian-Palestinian refugees fleeing violence at the Yarmouk refugee camp to enter the West Bank. Abbas claimed Israel surprisingly agreed to the refugees’ entry on condition that they all forgo the right of return, a condition he rejected out of hand.

Abbas repeated this claim during an interview with Lebanese news channel Al-Mayadeen last Friday, saying the message was transferred by UN representative to the Middle East Robert Serry to chief Palestinian Negotiator Saeb Erekat. An official in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office adamantly denied that any such agreement was given by Israel.

Corroborating the Israeli version of events, Eduardo del Buey, deputy spokesman for UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, confirmed that no letter was transferred between Israel and the Palestinians via the UN.

=====================

So this nonsense about Israel not allowing refugees into the W.Bank unless they sign off on their refugee status is complete and utter bullshit. Abbas just needed an excuse to ignore the plight of 10's of thousands of Palestinians in Syria.

Where's the pro-Palestinian crowd demanding these endangered refugees go to the W.Bank?



I thought they cared so much for Palestinians. Guess not, unless they're victims of Israel....

CORRECTED: LINK

[Scootaloo]

1. Well, you spent a lot of your time defending bullshit, didn't you?

But you know what? You're right. If the UN's calling BS on Abbas' claim, then I'm going with the UN; Abbas needs to get his shit in order, pronto.

[shira]

2. I violated one of my own rules.

And that's immediately accepting as fact another major anti-Israel smear job.

==============

So much for Abbas working hard to help 10's of thousands of Palestinian refugees in danger.

Now seriously, do you still believe Hamas and the PLO give a crap about the refugees?

[Scootaloo]

3. I don't think you have a good place to stand, Shira

If the PLO doesn't give a crap about the refugees, where exactly do you get the authority to criticize, since you don't, either? Whether you 'violated your own rules' or not, you made it abundantly clear that you would rather hundreds of thousands of people face death in Syria, than Israel not gain some political advantage from their plight. That was your position, and it's no different than what I've seen from you before on the subject of the refugees. You not only uncritically support the nation that created them, but you also justify the act of creating them, and defend the efforts by that nation to keep them permanently exiled to other nations, and you endorse violence committed by Israel against them.

So from appearances, it's not like you actually have any argument with the PLO here, except that you only pretend to care when Arabs do it, and the PLO only pretends to care when Jews do it. Which isn't that big of a difference, really.

But hey, that's appearances, based on your past posting record. Maybe you've had an epiphany.

So tell me then. Would you support occupation forces allowing thousands, tens of thousands of Palestinian refugees into the West bank? Of course they'd conduct security searches, but assuming nobody's trying to smuggle missiles up their ass and all is in order, you'd be all for letting some untold number of Palestinian refugees into Palestine, without some political deal in exchange? Just out of human interest in other people's well-being?

[shira]

4. Way to focus on me and deflect from PLO and Hamas responsibility for refugees....

I have no problem with the refugees going to the W.Bank.

And no, I'm not like Abbas. He said it's better 150,000 refugees die than give up their RoR. I would never be for that (actually it seems the entire anti-zionist movement is okay with 150,000 dying based on their silence all this time). I've been clear all along that these refugees should, like all other refugees, be accepted as citizens where they are - or else set up a fund so that they can be flown to wherever they want and apply for citizenship there.

Your other accusations are ridiculous. I say they should be treated like all other refugees from the past 70 years. With respect and dignity, which they've been denied for 70 years. All other refugees (10's of millions) from the WW2 era have homes elsewhere. Israel tried giving Gazans homes in the 70's but the UN and PLO shot that down. The refugees should have never been used as political pawns for the last 6 decades (which appears to be fine with you and your types too).

They wouldn't lose their refugee status according to UNRWA rules if they were citizens elsewhere, so why not get them out of the camps? The simple reason is because Arab regimes desire that Palestinians to live in misery (apartheid, etc.). That's their plan from way back in 1948. The UN (world) ensures it still goes on, even if it goes on another 6 decades. There's $$ and jobs in UNRWA, after all.

==============================================

Now let's turn the tables.

Where do you and yours (anti-Zionists/Israel) get the authority to criticize Zionists WRT refugees? It's clear very, very few of you give a crap (see above). Hell, you'd rather stick it to me than focus on Abbas and answer a simple question (whether he gives a crap about Palestinians). Why should I believe you give a crap for refugees? Have you ever spoken out against their apartheid conditions, their treatment under Arab rule, that they should have real homes and not camps....?

[Scootaloo]

16. Hamas isn't even in this story, Shira. Stick with the players on the field.

And no, it's not a deflection; As I said in my initial response, it looks like you're right, that the PLO and Abbas need to really get their shit in order on this. If he's lying about Israel's "proposal" (and if Ban Ki-moon says he is, then I'm inclined to believe Ban Ki-Moon over him) then yes, that is a hugely damning thing and it's on his head and, so long as he is in charge of the PLO, the organization bears responsibility as well.

Does Abbas give a crap about Palestinians? I've already answered that many, many times; I do not believe that the "government" of Palestine is doing the Palestinians any favors, except perhaps in the capacity of "better than nothing." My perspective and stance on this is well-established and I'm frankly getting tired of repeating it. If you can't comprehend the answer the first ten times, stop asking

Now as for why I "stick it to you?"

I bring you into this simply to put on display your own hypocrisy on the issue. When the news was that Israel wanted them to waive their rights, to wring political advantage from people fleeing for their lives, you were in complete and total support of the idea. You couldn't even comprehend why it's a contemptible idea to hold up people fleeing for their lives in order to wring concessions from them for later use against them.

Should the states of the Arab League renounce their forbiddance of granting Palestinians paths to citizenship? Yes, they should. I hope you weren't expecting some convoluted, evasive answer, because there isn't one; they absolutely should. Offering citizenship status to refugees is a mandate that these nations are in violation of.

The thing that you are (presumably intentionally) missing is that their violations of the rights of these refugees does not clear Israel's own culpability in the issue one bit. These people did not fall from the sky into Lebanon, Syria, and other Arab states. They fled there, or were forced there as refugees of three wars (two of them consecutive) that occurred in Palestine / Israel.

You accuse the Arab states of using the refugees as "political pawns" - maybe they do. My trouble with that is that I have never been able to figure out exactly what could be gained from doing so. It doesn't seem to confer any particular advantage to the states in question. it doesn't give them economic advantage, it doesn't give them a diplomatic edge, and it's surely not any sort of military strategy (Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria have all experienced that destitute people in refugee camps are a liability on all three fronts, actually). I've never seen an explanation from a hasbarista that doesn't just devolve into a lot of buffaloing about what terrible people Arabs (oh sorry, "the Arab states&quot are, for that matter.

On the other hand? As you point out, even if the refugees were granted citizenship in their host states, they would still be refugees, so long as their place of origin is barred to their return. Who bars them from that point of origin? Why... the nation that controls that territory; Israel. And there is clear political advantage for doing so on Israel's part - the maintenance of a Jewish ethnic majority within its borders. A majority, it happens, that was actually created at the exact same point all those people became refugees in the first place; How convenient and coincidental was that?

The trouble is... you support that. Wholeheartedly. You support the ethnic cleansing that led to the problem of the refugees in the first place, and you support maintaining their status as permanent exiles explicitly to preserve the gains of that ethnic cleansing. So you tell me you think these refugees should be treated with respect and dignity, but you are not willing to go so far as to admit any culpability or responsibility on Israel's part, nor are you willing to value their dignity and safety over Israel's political gains from denying those human rights.

I "stick it to you" because you are a fraud, a phony, a hypocritical little person who feigns concern and righteous indignation about the status of Palestinian refugees, while actively endorsing not only the events that caused them to become refugees, but the preservation of their status as perpetual exiles in order to preserve a political system that revolves around racial supremacy.

That's why I "stick it to you" here Shira, because your false attempts to act like you give a shit about people you'd just as soon vanished from the face of the earth is something I find particularly vile and contemptible.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Thanks for saying that. That's one of the best posts I've read for a long time in this group nt

[shira]

19. Compare your tone WRT Abbas or with Arab states vs. Israel....

Your absolute disgust with Israel, as opposed to barely a blip on the screen vs. regimes that have been 100x worse to Palestinians, speaks volumes.

You completely ignored all evidence of your own hypocrisy and phoniness. Not to mention that of your political anti-Israel allies. Namely, that none of you say a word about refugee conditions under neighboring Arab regimes (the apartheid masters appreciate that). No anguish at Abbas WRT to the Syrian situation (and I'm sure he appreciates that).

And why do Arab regimes keep them miserable as political pawns in camps? Are you fucking serious? They've only explained themselves like 100's of thousands of times. Here's Ralph Galloway 1952, director of UN aid (when the UN was still respectable): “The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don’t give a damn whether the refugees live or die.” Here's Jordan's King Hussein in 1960: “Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner.... They have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, even criminal.” Hussein was the only Arab leader who granted citizenship to Palestinians. Here's the Egyptian FM in 1949: "It is well-known and understood that the Arabs, in demanding the return of the refugees to Palestine, mean their return as masters of the Homeland and not as slaves. With a greater clarity, they mean the liquidation of the State of Israel". He's one of literally thousands of VIP's in the mideast who admit it and repeat it 24-7-365. Homs Conference on Refugees 1957: Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason.

That you don't know any of this, or you attribute it solely as Hasbara goes to show either you don't know an f-ing thing about I/P (really the Arab/Israel conflict) or simply do not care. Which once again proves that your concern for refugees is phony. It's okay, the entire anti-Israel movement feels the same way you do. They're all fraudulent sanctimonious hypocrites who share the same goals of those quoted above. It's not about human rights and it never has been.

Now feel free to once again ignore how fraudulent, sanctimonious, and hypocritical you and the anti-Israel movement is by deflecting to me. Keep deflecting from the responsibility of neighboring Arab regimes WRT the refugee situation. That's the game, isn't it? The point is to keep attacking Israel. Fuck the Palestinians human rights under Arab regimes that treat them 100x worse than Israel. Focus on Israel. That's always been the anti-Israel game. You think we're all fucking idiots and don't know that? I don't expect you to answer any of this, btw. I know you have no defense for it.

============

Finally, as to me....I really don't want to see anyone needlessly dying. That's why I'd have been for any settlement b/w Abbas and Israel WRT saving Palestinians. * I genuinely want peace and 2 states, and that means the refugee situation needs to be settled STAT. The problem with Israel taking in all refugees is that it's still not practical and would lead to war rather than peace. BTW, that's UNGAR 194 language, not me. Refugees should return when it's practical and if they're willing to live at peace in their homeland. The last time they were in Israel proper, there was a CIVIL WAR going on. Hello? Israel's neighboring Arab regimes know this (see above) and that's why THEY want it. At least they're clear they want Israel destroyed. Why take in all refugees (most of whom absolutely hate Israel)? Israel is not their home culturally, religiously, or politically. How will that improve the humanitarian situation?

Did Israel really ethnically cleanse them? There was a WAR going on. Benny Morris says ethnic cleansing was never a goal in 1948. It was a back-up plan in the event Jews would get massacred. When it comes to a refugee situation worth life/death, the latter is preferable and always has been throughout all of history. Israel didn't start the wars leading to the refugee situation. The Arab nations did. Their bad. The situation leading to 1948 was getting worse and worse with a civil war going on (that preceeded the big war months later). No one ever talks about that, btw. Wonder why?

I'm all for Israel taking in some refugees. Hell, even Israel offered to take in 270,000 at the Lausanne Conference of 1949. Arab leaders rejected it. You wonder why? Bet you didn't know about Lausanne, did you. I'm betting you don't care either.

* The reason I'd have been for any settlement (including Palestinians writing off on RoR) is not only that it would've saved 10's of thousands, it's because it wouldn't have held up in Israeli courts. Not to mention the UN. The refugees would have still retained their refugee status regardless. I was for it - and still am - due to the fact full RoR will and should never happen (it would cause a civil war, not peace). Israel will never allow it anyway, whether they stay in Syria or go to the WB. What's of primary concern is that they GTFO of Syria ASAP. Obviously, the priority for everyone on your side (including Abbas) is to attack Israel rather than focus on refugee human rights. It's why you can hardly muster up any criticism vs. Abbas, Syria, etc.

[azurnoir]

20. shira that is some nerve as you have taken the title and snips of an article

and linked us to another, is that because your hiding the fact that Israel has made absolutely no offers of any sort to allow Palestinians to return to any where?

http://www.timesofisrael.com/un-denies-abbas-claims-on-palestinians-fleeing-syria/

now as to the rest I agree with scoot and will add that if in 1948 Arab countries had allowed Palestinian refugees to become citizens their would be no 'Arab problem' in Israel today, as there would most likely be no non-Jewish Arabs in Israel

[Violet_Crumble]

24. They seem to be ignoring a good part of what Scoot said...

Especially this: 'The thing that you are (presumably intentionally) missing is that their violations of the rights of these refugees does not clear Israel's own culpability in the issue one bit. These people did not fall from the sky into Lebanon, Syria, and other Arab states. They fled there, or were forced there as refugees of three wars (two of them consecutive) that occurred in Palestine / Israel.'

I guess it must be hard to focus when there's so much flailing around calling anyone who dares think Israel does hold some responsibility 'anti-Israel', hypocrites, etc etc. For such a wordy post, I calculated a good 70% of it consisted of nothing but name-calling...

[azurnoir]

34. yep and add to that the proposal that the PLO and Jordan should work together to bring the refugees

into the West Bank which IMO verges on ludicrous the PLO has no authority over the border areas it is up to Israel but once again any port or something

[shira]

31. You really don't know what you're talking about. The current OP, not from 1/10/13.....

...shows Abbas lied, as Ban Ki Moon and the UN deny Israel ever called for refugees to sign off on their RoR.

Do you understand that?

now as to the rest I agree with scoot and will add that if in 1948 Arab countries had allowed Palestinian refugees to become citizens their would be no 'Arab problem' in Israel today, as there would most likely be no non-Jewish Arabs in Israel

Pure speculation. The very fact Israel didn't clear out all of the Israeli Arab population and the fact they were willing to take in 270,000 at the Lausanne 1949 conference shows you're pulling shit out of your ass.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Why do you keep on asking people the same questions they've already answered?

I noticed in reading Scoot's response to you that you keep on asking over and over even though youve been given answers before. You've done that to me and others as well, so I'm wondering is this some newfangled debate tactic I haven't been made aware of? Or are you just really forgetful about what people say?

[shira]

32. Because like almost all politicians, they don't answer direct questions that are damning. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

33. But the thing is people do answer you and you seem to ignore and keep demanding an answer...

It's really strange to see it happen so frequently...

[shira]

36. They deflect and bring up red herrings rather than answer simple questions.

Want an example in which I ask you a simple question that I know damned well you will not answer straight out?

[Violet_Crumble]

38. No, I've seen people give you very clear answers and you ignore them...

My fave is when you pop up with 'why should I believe you?' after someone's clearly answered a question you ask where you just don't like the answer.


It's just really bizarre.

[shira]

46. No? I'll be glad to demonstrate by asking you something you will not answer. n/t

[Scootaloo]

44. So to condense your argument...

"I know you are but what am I? I know you are but what am I? I know you are but what am I?" - Pee-Wee Herman

You also make a point of utterly ignoring my criticism of Abbas and the governments of the Arab League. It's not the first time, nor will it be the last, I'm sure.

While you do a good job of reciting accusations of the refugees being used as political pawns, you don't actually seem to offer ideas of what they're being used for, or how that's supposed to work. Are you capable of analysis and independent thought at all, or do you just parrot what you find on the the Elder of Ziyon blog, interspersed with Glenbeckian smirks and "I'm just asking's"?

Fuck the Palestinians human rights under Arab regimes that treat them 100x worse than Israel. That's always been the anti-Israel game, right?

Not at all. We just hold in contempt people like you who pretend that Arab violations of those rights make Israeli violations of those same rights okay, or who hold that violations and violence committed by Arab hands is worse than those committed by Jewish hands.

Tell me, how can you believe that Syria killing 850+ Palestinians after some of their number took arms against the government is bad, when you are an avid and eager defender of Israel killing 1,400+ Palestinians after some of their number fired rockets from Gaza? How does that compute for you, what's the math?

Tell me, why do you think it's terrible for Kuwait to expel over a hundred thousand Palestinian refugees and confiscate their wealth for the state after the Iraq invasion, but you are an almost orgasmic advocate of expelling seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinian residents and claiming their property for the state during and after the 1947-49 wars? How does that play out in your head?

How is it that you condemn Lebanon's ghetto-ization of the Palestinian refugee camps there, but are a tireless and happy supporter of Israel doing the same in the West Bank?

If you were outraged by all of these violations, if you sought for the whole damn thing to be resolved and rectified, that's be great; But you don't. Only half of these situations offend you, only half of them are problems for you. You are only for resolution and rectification if these Arab states and only these Arab states foot the bill.

You think we're all fucking idiots and don't know that?

Well, you're half right.

I know you have no defense for it.

I don't often bother to defend myself from people acting like their ass is on fire and their hair is catching, so I suppose you're right.

============

Did Israel really ethnically cleanse them?

Maybe it was a typhus outbreak.

Good night Shira. I hope you sleep well after this statement. I wouldn't be able to.

[shira]

50. Pee-Wee Herman? Most of your schtick here is attacks on Israel and Zionists....

...as being racist, apartheid, nazi-like, ethnic cleansing, etc. When I turn the tables on you and show that your position is in fact worse, being hypocritical, fraudulent, and about 100x worse than that of Israel's, you write it off as Pee-Wee Herman crap. Just more deflection so you can keep attacking rather than defending your position. Good for debates (stay on offensive) but disingenuous nonetheless. No matter what you think of the Zionist/Israeli position, we go to great lengths trying to explain it. You guys who are worse know your position is indefensible and that's why you remain on the offensive (always), never admitting you're wrong, never changing your views.

I didn't say I ignore your criticism of Abbas. I'm comparing it to your hyper-criticism and demonization of Israel. What Abbas is doing along with the Arab world the past 6 decades is worse than anything Israel has ever done to Palestinians. But you go ballistic vs. Israel and take it easy with kid gloves regarding Abbas and his cronies. Why is that?

While you do a good job of reciting accusations of the refugees being used as political pawns, you don't actually seem to offer ideas of what they're being used for, or how that's supposed to work.

You didn't really read those quotes, did you? They're used as demographic time bombs. Political pawns. Instruments of war vs. Israel. No matter how zany you and I make think it is, Abbas and Arab regimes surrounding Israel are serious, to the extent they'll wait 6 more decades in the hopes it'll some day happen. How it's supposed to work? Really? Via International Law, the UN, all their LW allies, pressure, isolation, etc. The point is they want it to happen. Now do you have a problem with any of this? Now that you know?

We just hold in contempt people like you who pretend that Arab violations of those rights make Israeli violations of those same rights okay, or who hold that violations and violence committed by Arab hands is worse than those committed by Jewish hands.

You don't get our position. It's that we know you're all phony. You guys NEVER speak out for Palestinians unless Israel can be blamed. That's what we object to. And what Arab regimes are doing is 100x worse. We hold you all in contempt, knowing your position is no different than the one shared by Abbas and his dictator friends throughout the mideast. We've been hearing that position since 1948 and your rhetoric is no different. Maybe a bit more clever and not as obvious, but the intent is the same.

Tell me, how can you believe that Syria killing 850+ Palestinians after some of their number took arms against the government is bad, when you are an avid and eager defender of Israel killing 1,400+ Palestinians after some of their number fired rockets from Gaza? How does that compute for you, what's the math?

You refuse to see a difference b/w Israel and Syria. You believe Israel is just as evil as Syria and that self-defense is nothing but an excuse for Israel. We'll never see eye-to-eye on this.

Tell me, why do you think it's terrible for Kuwait to expel over a hundred thousand Palestinian refugees and confiscate their wealth for the state after the Iraq invasion, but you are an almost orgasmic advocate of expelling seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinian residents and claiming their property for the state during and after the 1947-49 wars? How does that play out in your head?

Why don't you all CARE that Kuwait expelled over 100,000? You're all no different than Arab rogue regimes throughout the mideast. You all don't care, so PLEASE stop pretending you do, for the sake of human rights! You're worse than Arab leadership in that region. At least they admit what they're about. You guys advertise yourselves as HR activists.

But to answer you, Israel's expulsion happened in a time of war when Israel's security was really at stake. The 2 situations, b/w Israel and Kuwait are totally different. Again, self-defense and human life (civil war) trumps the right of people (many of whom are enemies of the state) to live in their homes.

How is it that you condemn Lebanon's ghetto-ization of the Palestinian refugee camps there, but are a tireless and happy supporter of Israel doing the same in the West Bank?

It's not the same. You see the same intent, and actually worse WRT Israel. You don't give a rip about Lebanon and its refugees when you claim to be pro-Palestinian and your goal at all times is to make Israel APPEAR to be worse than its neighbors in an attempt (whether you know it or not) to deflect from worse crimes happening throughout the mideast (with respect to both Palestinians and the vast majority of the rest of the Arab population).

FTR, I've made it clear I'm against the camps. You should note Israel once had Palestinian refugee camps within the green line. They couldn't stand it, saw it as an abomination, and took all the Palestinians in as citizens. Remember that.

If you were outraged by all of these violations, if you sought for the whole damn thing to be resolved and rectified, that's be great; But you don't. Only half of these situations offend you, only half of them are problems for you. You are only for resolution and rectification if these Arab states and only these Arab states foot the bill.

Two things.

1. I'm more disgusted at people who claim to stand up for HR, who claim liberal values....but do nothing of the sort with respect to Palestinians who are not victims of Israel. That's why I do it. This is worse than the Arab dictators in the mideast. They're very clear (in Arabic) about their ill-intent. You guys, acting as peaceniks and humanists, conceal what you're all about.

2. I look at the conflict within context. What you see as ethnic cleansing, I see as an alternative to what was a genuine threat to Israel's existence in 1948 (and another genocide against Jews). Had no such thing happened and Palestinians who were in a civil war vs. Israel were allowed to remain and fight Israel along with 5 Arab armies, I'm not sure Israel would have won that war.

Here's what Mahmoud Abbas said:

“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”

Not all Palestinians were expelled by Israel. Abbas is stating that Arab regimes were responsible in a big way. Remember that.

Regardless, you'll never admit to what Abbas himself said. Nor any other evidence. You'll keep blaming Israel for expelling ALL refugees and pretend that a war their enemies started (including Palestinians) had nothing to do with it. You'll claim Israel is as bad as Kuwait WRT ethnic cleansing when the 2 situations are nothing alike.

=======

If you want a real debate minus the accusations, then at the very least we have to agree on the facts. They do that in Israel and in Palestine (Jews and Arabs). They don't deny history. They debate based on facts, not fiction. They don't agree with each other, but the debate there is at least honest.

[Scootaloo]

57. Shira, I've tried everything.

I've read your posts back and forth, multiple times. The following is the only conclusion I can glean about you.

You ask me,

Did Israel really ethnically cleanse them?

And then you tell me...

(1) They're used as demographic time bombs.

(2) You believe Israel is just as evil as Syria and that self-defense is nothing but an excuse for Israel.

(3) Again, self-defense and human life (civil war) trumps the right of people (many of whom are enemies of the state) to live in their homes.

(4) What you see as ethnic cleansing, I see as an alternative to what was a genuine threat to Israel's existence in 1948

(5) Not all Palestinians were expelled by Israel.

(6) Abbas and Arab regimes surrounding Israel are serious, to the extent they'll wait 6 more decades in the hopes it'll some day happen. How it's supposed to work? Really? Via International Law, the UN, all their LW allies, pressure, isolation, etc.

You not only openly endorse and excuse ethnic cleansing, you then play coy and question that it ever happened, all while making cockamamie excuses for it! And then when someone points it all out, you accuse them of engaging in a conspiracy against you and try to portray them as the enemy of the people so abused, and yourself as their heroic defender.

While the Nakba and the Holocaust are not on the same scale, you are nothing different from any of the Irvings or Zündels out there. "Don't deny history," indeed. Like your counterparts so named, you wriggle and squirm and try desperately to double-talk yourself out of the mess you bring on yourself, without ever actually denying your support for and defense of the idea of purging an entire class of people from a given territory. You even make the same fucking arguments they do!

(1) " Jews were a direct threat to Germany's national sovereignty and survival!"
(2) "Stalin was no friend of Jews either, and Americans had concentration camps too, so why do you support the Allies? Besides, Germany was acting in self-defense, since the Jews had declared war on Germany in 1933!"
(3) " The Jews were Bolsheviks and conspirators; as enemies of the state, they should have been imprisoned!
(4) " Experts disagree over the issue. Besides, Jews were an existential threat."
(5) " Nobody knows how many Jews fled into the USSR. And a lot of them fled before, anyway!
(6) " These accusations are all just a conspiracy to demonize a good man and nation of good people!"

Nothing they say is materially different from the arguments you have made here, and elsewhere. You are a proponent and defender of ethnic cleansing, at the same time you are a denialist of the actual history of such events. There is simply no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

As I said. I hope you sleep well. I wouldn't be able to.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

58. You haven't tried everything.

Don't feed the trolls any longer. You'll feel better. Some are here not to find the truth but to divert from it.

[shira]

60. Everything? You don't accept facts & history....

You brought up my denial of or even support of ethnic cleansing. I supplied you with a quote from Mahmoud Abbas:

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live."

What do you with a quote like that, other than ignore it or deflect?

Here's another:

THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arabfailure in 1948: " ... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to theinhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries ... We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees bycalling on them and pleading with them to leave their land."

What do you do with that quote? Fight the cognitive dissonance by deflecting & ignoring it?

How many quotes like that do you need in order to convince you that MAYBE, just MAYBE you are wrong? Because if you're wrong, then we're having a completely different discussion aren't we?

[Scootaloo]

62. You're the one clearly denying well-documented facts, Shira

May you do well in your new career as a writer for the Institute for Historical Review.

[shira]

63. "I know you are...". Thanks Pee-Wee. But I gave you 2 quotes....

...showing significant Arab accountability WRT the original refugee problem. Do you need more, because I have more if you want.

Apparently, anything that takes away from the argument that Israel is 100% responsible for refugees (due to malicious ethnic cleansing) causes some cognitive dissonance here. Do you not believe it's possible Arab leadership is to blame?

Before you go accusing me of denial, I would like for you to acknowledge that Arab leaders back in the 40's - 60's blamed other Arab leadership for having a significant role in the refugee crisis.

Or do you deny that?

Can I legitimately accuse you of denial from now on if you continue to ignore the issue?

See your hypocrisy yet?

Maybe you believe all Arab leadership at that time can be considered victims who cannot possibly be blamed for Palestinian ethnic cleansing. After all, they can never be held responsible for their actions, right? Isn't believing that they're helpless and unaccountable for anything they do a form of racism?

Is that why you're barely critical of Abbas WRT the 150,000 refugees in Syria? Low to no expectations of him? That's racist.

[Scootaloo]

64. I have quotes too, Shira.

Again, self-defense and human life (civil war) trumps the right of people (many of whom are enemies of the state) to live in their homes.

That's you, a few posts ago, explicitly admitting that the Arabs of Palestine were expelled; you defend the notion that Israel targeting hundreds of thousands of people on basis of ethnic background is a good move, necessary to the survival of Israel.

What you see as ethnic cleansing, I see as an alternative to what was a genuine threat to Israel's existence in 1948

That's you, in the same post, acknowledging what happened, while trying to handwave it into being something else and, again, stating that it was necessary to expel all those people for the good of Israel.

Not all Palestinians were expelled by Israel.

You, again, noting that Palestinians were expelled by Israel.

The expulsion pf Arabs from Palestine by Israel is an established fact Shira. No amount of lying, no amount of denial, no amount of bald-faced ignorant bullshitting on your part is ever going to change this.

I want you to take a moment, and have a good long think here. One of the people you are quoting at me here, Mahmoud Abbas, is the exact same guy that you have been calling a liar all up and down this thread and many others, insisting that he has absolutely no interest at all in the welfare of the Palestinian people, right? That's your stance on Abbas, that he's a lying anti-Palestinian fuck. Now think about the fact you're citing him. Your standards go up, your standards go down. They go up, they go down. Sometimes it even sways side-to-side.

Also, your "quotation" of Khaled al-Azem is incorrect;

Fifth: the Arab governments' invitation to the people of Palestine to flee from it and seek refuge in adjacent Arab countries, after terror had spread among their ranks in the wake of the Deir Yassin event. This mass flight has benefited the Jews and the situation stablized in their favor without effort.... Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homeland, while it is we who constrained them to leave it. Between the invitation extended to the refugees and the request to the United Nations to decide upon their return, there elapsed only a few months.

Is the actual quotation. See those ellipses in your version? That's critical information being excised. See the word "Arabfailure" in your quotation? That's a nice little indicator that can be used when searching; it reveals that what you quoted only seems to exist on silly little Zionist echo chambers.

Israeli historian Benny Morris acknowledges the orders of individual Arab commanders as a factor in some Palestinians becoming refugees. How many is "some?" Morris estimates fewer than 5%. Perhaps now you will tell me about what a raving autoantisemite he is, eh?

You deny the performance of ethnic cleansing; while admitting and excusing and supporting its occurrence. you trivialize and denigrate and blame the victims while saying there were no victims at all. You're not doing too well there, Shira.

And do spare me the pseudo-progressive bullshit. You're no more worried about the well-being of a Palestinian than a "pro-lifer" is worried about the mental health of a pregnant woman.

I'm done with you, and your trash. Have a good night.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

66. I've come to the same conclusion.

It's for the best. Some need to be left to mumble in a corner.

[delrem]

67. Irving and Zündel

At least these people were prosecuted, deported, declared persona non grata, fled, and in general reaped something of what they sowed.

Zündel contaminated the body politic of Canada for decades and tho' in hindsight it can be seen as a good thing that he was prosecuted (in a bungled way) under Canada's humanitarian law, so it went back and forth in the courts and the man was exposed, nevertheless at the time it was a bit like having to live next to an untreated sewage outlet.

Having been exposed, those same kind of systemic lies can be spotted when they occur again whether in the same or other contexts.

There is something especially cowardly and heinous about people like Zündel and Irving, who out of one side of their mouths incite to hatred while out of the other side they deny the consequences that in fact occurred. Cowardly because neither have the courage to admit to the program that they continue to promote.

Perhaps both were so warped that they truly saw themselves as righteous victims - but that doesn't make their crime any more forgivable since they cultivated that warp all their lives.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

10. No, not a good place to stand...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=29137

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=29139

[azurnoir]

14. actually if you click the link you'll it is not the same article

and the one she claims to link to says that Israel made absolutely NO offer to allow any Palestinians into the WB or anywhere else

[delrem]

15. Yes. n/t

[azurnoir]

5. Then why are the refugees not being transfered? Abbas only controls 18% of the West Bank

Israel has security control over the remaining 82%, unless Israel will only allow the refugees into Area A?

[shira]

6. Israel should work with Syria to allow these refugees to cross into the W.Bank....

....without the support of Abbas?

Really?

[azurnoir]

7. just too funny without the support of Abbas as if Israel gives a f*ck about what Abbas thinks

but really Israel seems too busy bombing Syria's border hmmmm

[shira]

8. Abbas would raise holy hell and you all (including the UN) would take his side.

You'd all claim Israel was trying to get them into the W.Bank rather than allow them future RoR.

Big nasty, racist, ethnic cleansing Zio- conspiracy.

[Scootaloo]

17. I for one wouldn't. I think Israel should give it a shot

After all, all of the border areas are under full Israeli control, and most of the interior is under Israeli security control. So, my advice would be for Israel to give it a shot anyway.

I understand there are some lovely new apartments being built in the west bank even; they seem like good places to shelter the people fleeing for their lives, don't you think?

[shira]

21. It's not for Israel to decide. Abbas and Jordan should agree to let it happen....

...and work cooperatively with Israel to carry it out (which Israel would certainly do).

Again, you put the responsibility onto Israel rather than on the PLO, Jordan, Syria, etc. Attack and deflect mode, always.

[azurnoir]

27. lol Abbas does not have the authority to allow anyone to cross Israeli controlled borders

but do keep trying I like pretzels

[shira]

30. Which is why the PLO should work with Jordan (at peace with Israel for 20 years).....

...in order to carry it out, which Israel would do.

[azurnoir]

35. again what part of Israeli controlled are you not understanding?g

if anything it is up to Israel and Jordan to "work it out"

[shira]

37. If Abbas wants to do it, he should work w/ both Jordan and Israel to make it happen....

What's difficult about this?

Oh, you want Israel to initiate rather than Abbas? This is about deflecting away from Abbas and trying to blame Israel for the situation, isn't it?

[azurnoir]

39. oh so now its Jordan AND Israel

Israel alone has the say here unless your claiming Jordan will not allow the refugees to leave but weren't you claiming a short time ago that Jordan wasn't allowing Palestinian refugees from Syria to enter? really you've got to make up your mind here

[shira]

40. Have you ever looked at a map to see that Syria doesn't connect to the W.Bank?

Yes, Jordan.

[azurnoir]

41. are you retracting your claim that Jordan isn't allowing Palestinian refugees from Syria to enter? n

[shira]

42. Sigh. You claim one thing, you're corrected, then you claim another....

....and keep trying to attack.

I'm not retracting anything. Jordan refused to take in the refugees - into Jordan.

That doesn't mean Jordan won't help facilitate a transfer into the W.Bank. Jordan's King doesn't want them in his land, that's all.

[azurnoir]

43. shira I asked you a question you obviously do not wish to answer

the only claims I've made3 concern the you posting a link to one article under the title of another

[shira]

45. If your 'ONLY' issue was with a mistaken link of mine, then why did you go into attack...

....mode vs. Israel WRT Jordan and Abbas?

[azurnoir]

47. pointing out that Abbas has not the authority to make such a move is hardly an attack

it is pointing out reality

[shira]

51. With Israel, it's a guarantee those refugees get into the W.Bank.

Maybe it's time you blame Abbas for something really bad.

[azurnoir]

55. the article that OP is supposedly based on says Israel has not given any sort of permission

for Palestinian refugees to return

[shira]

59. How do you know Israel was ever asked? n/t

[Scootaloo]

48. Wait a second now, Shira...

"It's not for Israel to decide"? Actually, it is for Israel to decide; Israel controls the border. They demanded control of the borders, and were granted it. Oslo II, remember, you bring it up now and then. What's more, the whole of the Jordan Valley - the West Bank's border with Jordan - is Area C - again an Israeli demand at Oslo - which puts it totally under Israeli civil and security authority.

I'm sorry to disappoint you Shira, but as Israel is the occupying force in control of the borders and with total autonomy over this particular stretch of territory, yes it is their responsibility.

Besides. Even if this were not the case (and I reiterate, it fucking is the case) then I would have to ask; why does Israel (and you) care so much about what Abbas and the PA might think with regards to letting refugees over that border, yet neither Israel (or you) give a flying fuck about any other concern Abbas or the PA might have about what Israel does in the west bank? And if Abbas is standing in the way, why should good, humanitarian Israel respect his wishes?

Shira, you're just trying to get out of the corner you painted yourself into. You tried to make an attack - "durrr, all you Arab-lovers would hate it if Israel let all those refugees in!" - and you failed. Badly.

Stick with Nakba Denialism.

[shira]

52. Look at a map. Jordan will have to factor in, as the W.Bank shares no border with Syria.

The refugees will not be allowed to pass through Israel, but there shouldn't be a problem with them going through Jordan to the W.Bank.

Why is it up to Israel to offer?

Why isn't the PLO publicly demanding this happen with the help of Jordan?

===========

I only bring up Abbas' nastiness WRT Palestinians b/c first, it is nasty. And second, you guys can't be bothered by it. That's a complete betrayal of the humanitarian, liberal values you guys say you're fighting for.

[Mosby]

9. what do you think about Israel and Jordan

Jointly relocating Syrian Palestinians into area C without the PAs involvement?

I think it's a good idea but whether or not the Palestinians and their supporters agree, I don't know.

[delrem]

13. That isn't realistic.

Israel has been pushing Palestinians *out* of area C, using "closed military zones" as a reason to drive Palestinians out of their communities, and Israeli laws re. what new constructions are legal/illegal ensure that the relocation of these people is 100% controlled.

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel would allow the influx of 100,000+ Palestinian refugees *into* area C?

[shira]

22. Israel wouldn't allow them into area C in my opinion. n/t

[Mosby]

65. whether a,b or c

All the ME Palestinian refugees will eventually move to "Palestine" when the conflict is resolved someday. So why not help the syrian palestinians now rather than later, the US is sending jordan a substantial amount of aid for them regardless, why not relocate them now?

I suggested area c because the Israelis have more control there.

[delrem]

11. Abbas is a quisling with no respect to squander.

He's an obsequious groveler who does Israel's bidding within area A, has even less than that authority in area B, and isn't even a factor in area C, which includes every border with the outside world.

He has *no* power to allow/disallow *anything* w.r.t. border control.

[shira]

23. He has political power and pressure via the media and UN should Israel refuse.

Israel wouldn't refuse.

I guarantee you that.

[azurnoir]

12. ah the only false claims are yours about what the article says this opis from 1/10/13

here is the proper snip

Following a meeting with Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi, Abbas said that he had appealed to the UN to intercede on behalf of Palestinian refugees living in Syria and demand that Israel allow them to enter the West Bank and Gaza.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon told Abbas that Israel agreed to the request, on the condition that the refugees sign a document in which they forgo the “right of return” to areas within Israel. Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev declined to comment on the report.

Abbas said he rejected that condition.

Palestinians living in the Yarmouk refugee camp south of Damascus have been subjected to government bombardment following the camp’s capture by opposition forces last month. Five Palestinians were killed in the camp on Tuesday.

[shira]

25. That's a false story. Hence, the OP above disproving it. Did you actually read it?

Or do you think Ban Ki Moon and the UN is lying and that Abbas is the honest one?

[azurnoir]

26. I've read both shira the 1/10/13 you linked to and the more recent one

that the OP is claimed to be about that I linked to that is why I know

[shira]

29. So you believe the original 1/10/13 story, and not the OP above? n/t

[azurnoir]

61. I would tend to go with the UN here

and I wonder if the 1/10 including the hearsay quotes story was an invention of the imagination

[The Straight Story]

49. Didn't you say earlier that the UN was basically BS? So why are you quoting them now?

Oh...that's right, now it is OK because they have something positive to say that you like.

[shira]

53. Where's your outrage for those Palestinians whose human rights you say...

..you care so much about? Are you disgusted at Abbas?

Or only disgusted if Israel can be blamed for victimizing, in any way, the Palestinians?

[The Straight Story]

54. Disgusted with both sides

But some will only criticize one.