Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIDF Most Female-Friendly Army on Earth
The IDF is the world’s most female-friendly army according to new numbers compiled by the Manpower Directorate.
34 percent of IDF soldiers are women – a figure unparalleled among other militaries. 57% of all officers are women, 28% of career officers are women, and 92% of all army positions are open to women.
The numbers are of course in large part due to mandatory conscription, yet they are encouraging, especially considering the advancements for women in recent years. For example since 2001 there has been an 8% drop in the numbers of women assigned to secretarial and clerk roles, from 21% to just 13% in 2012.
“We are witnessing an increase in women enlisting as officers, as well as women pursuing careers in the army – especially in the ranks from Captain to Lieutenant Colonel, but we still have a long way to go to reach our potential,” said the Women’s Affairs Advisor to Israel’s Chief of Staff, Brig. Gen. Rachel Tevet-Wiesel.
Speaking at an IDF event Tuesday held in honor of International Women’s Day, Chief of the General Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz encouraged women to take on important roles. “There are numerous opportunities [for young women] to gain practical knowledge, enter the army and influence it – our entire organization would benefit from it,” he said. “I believe in this and I believe in you, just as much as I believe in all those serving in the IDF,” he added.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/03/07/idf-most-female-friendly-army-on-earth/
Knowing that IDF women can kick their asses must burn Hamas up.
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JoeBlowToo
(253 posts)You must not know much about the nature of warfare.
I don't think you want to mess with their lady snipers.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)
No, no... Well, yes, but... AH! Here it is...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)from it's solutions page
Hasbara at its finest indeed even though it was also printed by the algeminer from which it is linked to here , it will be a most helpful tool in the future 
I suggest people check it out Hasbara for every taste and political persuasion from Left to Right
http://www.solveisraelsproblems.com/
eta actually it was the picture you posted that gave me the link
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Drew Barrymore is converting!
Tel Aviv's fashion scene is on the rise!
Israeli Study Says Beautiful Women are Selfish Conformists!
Alanis Morissette to Perform in Israel!
Tips for Easier Fasting on Yom Kippur!
I don't know what on earth they're trying to solve exactly, but godspeed to 'em
King_David
(14,851 posts)JoeBlowToo
(253 posts)People get killed on both sides. A relative of mine was killed in the 1967 war and we weren't laughing about it.
Mosby
(19,491 posts)I think your butthurt about the OP's comment is funny.
What side was your relative on? Care to share since you brought it up?
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)like Eden Abergil did here
shira
(30,109 posts)...you refer to one soldier's stupid Facebook page.
Okay...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)they even keep souvenirs but I take it you don't like my choice? Besides I thought the post was about how great IDF is for women
shira
(30,109 posts)Do you even believe that the IDF's record WRT female soldiers should be commended? Call it boob-washing or something else in order to "cover" up the occupation, but this is a good thing!
Meanwhile in another thread you're whitewashing Hamas' treatment of women.
It's upside-down bizarro world with you.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)What you believe is sh*t is actually just common sense.
Also, there seems to be a growing number of 'stupid' IDF soldiers lately: posting their nonsense for the world to see. I'm not sure what the ratio is to stupid US soldiers. Perhaps it is in parity?
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 11, 2013, 10:58 AM - Edit history (1)
...Israel's record WRT women's equal rights / opportunity.
I've seen the same damned thing going on here WRT gay rights. That's excused in Gaza and the WB too, while Israel's record is bashed.
Defending or explaining away Hamas while bashing Israel's liberal policies is something I expect from hardline conservative republicans, not fellow liberals/progressives here.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Perhaps you can show us who is unequivocally covering, defending or explaining away for Hamas ( you do understand what unequivocally means?), Shira. I can tell you that I have not witnessed it, and I can tell you that I haven't engaged in it either.
What I can tell you is that criticism of Israel is not "conservative republican" in nature as you would pretend to steer the passing DUer to believe (Psst, the passing Duer is smarter than that), but it is borne out of the values of human rights. Perhaps you don't truly understand what it means to be a fellow liberal/progressive?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)little demonstration of diversion from the topic
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=34340
and the article was about women in the IDF not about Hamas that was your own editorial
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)know that, regardless of distractions, they can only distract so much until it enters the realm of vaudeville.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Which country is willing to put their bank account or their military's lives on the line for the Palestinians?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Nobody here really gives a fuck how well-pampered Israel's soldiers are, whether they be male or female. Israel can afford it, what with the three billion I help pay out to them every year, plus the wealth looted from the continued pillaging of the West bank and Palestine's tax coffers. No, their comfort and the gentle-handedness their military treats them with just isn't that interesting...
Except perhaps to provide a nice contrast against their actions in the continued occupation of Palestine. Which is exactly what you're trying to distract from. I'm not going to term it "boob-washing" or some other silly thing like that, but it's pretty evident that you post it, and demand we lick shit from Israel's crack and call it chocolate because of it.
shira
(30,109 posts)As if they're not surrounded by regimes extremely hostile to the Jews who live in Israel.
Right?
You just see thuggery against innocent Arabs, whether they're Palestinian, Libyan, Syrian, Egyptian....
============
Given that Israel is under threat and in a state of war, as it always has been since its existence, it's amazing how liberal and non-authoritarian it has been and continues to be. Compared to other countries in the same situation, including western democracies, Israel compares very favorably and probably at or near the top of the list.
============
Imagine America surrounded by Israel's enemies. We'd have nuked them many times over and Republicans would've ruled the past 70 years. Racism and Bigotry would be running rampant here. Gay and Women's Rights would be WAY behind Israel's.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And how it's a land without people for a people without a land. And there will only be peace when they love their children more than they hate us, because Arabs only understand the language of violence. I'm sure there's a few other simpleminded, trite cliches you've got stores in there somewhere, right?
shira
(30,109 posts)...doing what they've done to Israelis the last 70 years, how many times would the USA and UK have nuked them by now?
With racism being as bad as it's been in both the USA and UK, what do you think it would be like if they had Israel's neighbors the last 70 years?
Better or worse than racism within Israel?
Be real.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)How about a straight answer for once?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I believe IMHO that the majority of Du would like that from you.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And in so doing, make your advocacy plain. You seem to feel that whatever Israel does is to be accepted and excused and even cherished because you believe the US would do worse. You are essentially relying on speculative fiction - genocidal speculative fiction, with its excusing of nuclear holocuasts and race wars - to back up your own position.
Like I said. A shining example of liberal zionism.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)
In Rafah in 2004, an Israeli unit opened fire on Imam Darweesh al-Hams from seventy yards. She was wounded and fell, at which point the unit's commanding officer, "Captain R" left his unit's position and went to "confirm the kill" by putting two bullets into Imam's head and then emptying his magazine into her body.
Internal communications were recorded, in the audio it is confirmed that Darweesh is "a girl of about 10" and that she was "scared to death." ...and that "one of the positions took her out." At which point "Captain R" announces he and another soldier are going to her "to confirm the kill," and that "We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill."
In the same audio, this same commander announces, "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
"Captain R" was never charged with this murder. He was charged instead with 'illegal use of a weapon' and 'conduct unbecoming of an officer.' After an internal investigation, a military tribunal - the IHCJ refused the case - found 'Captain R" not guilty of the charges before him.
He was then promoted to Major. And then awarded 82,000 shekels for his trouble. On the basis of his acquittal, he filed a libel suit against Telad and was awarded another 100,000 shekels.
So there's the Israeli army's position on women.
King_David
(14,851 posts)But anything to say remotely to do with the OP ?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 10, 2013, 07:54 PM - Edit history (1)
wade into that nonsense about who does what with regard to OPs?
Or would you rather we all lulz over it?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)India?
Police, army rampantly use rape as weapon: Arundhati Roy
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_police-army-rampantly-use-rape-as-weapon-arundhati-roy_1783670
And how do you think the Israeli army measures up to say, the United States?
Maybe ask the family of Abeer Qasim Hamza?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And I would happily point out exactly that if someone did foolishly make such a claim.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Don't know if they have the term picked out yet.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I'm just showing you what a lie that is.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's yet another misrepresentation of Israel. Not that you care, because you'll just drop this story and come up with another. That's how demonization and defamation works.
The testimony of the 2 soldiers who were the main (and only) witnesses fell apart. One admitted he lied and the other couldn't confirm the charges against Captain R.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=4767
How many times can you guys get a story wrong? It's one after another. I'm not sure you guys can ever get it right. It's unbelievable.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)As I said, the Military court relied solely on soldier's testimony gleaned from the Israeli military's internal investigation. "Captain R" was never charged with her killing. Instead he was charged with improper conduct and illegal use of a weapon. It went to the Military Tribunal because the civilian court, the Israeli High Court of Justice, refused to admit the case.
Iman al-hams died of seventeen gunshot wounds, fired at close-range. "Captain R" is recorded, in his own words, as having shot her and then "confirmed the kill." Regardless of the military court's decision, she is still dead, of seventeen gunshot wounds firedat close range that Captain R took credit for.
Now tell me, which do you think is more likely
1) Iman al-Hams collaborated with the two soldiers who recanted, by shooting herself seventeen times, three in the head while they falsified radio transmissions in order to make "Captain R" look bad
or
2) "Captain R" did exactly what he said he did, and was protected and covered for by the military he is part of, partially through pressure against two fellow soldiers acting as witnesses.
Remember how in the SFPD's internal investigation into the murder of Oscar Grant by a BART cop it was determined the officer was "acting in self defense" (against a man prone on his belly with his hands zipcuffed behind his back)?
Remember how the US Military acquitted every person facing charges for the My Lai massacre, as if 504 Vietnamese people just dropped dead in an effort to embarrass the US?
You see an elaborate conspiracy against this one piddleshit officer. I see the inevitable result of what happens when you allow an organization to investigate and put itself on trial.
shira
(30,109 posts)http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/03/far-left-no-place-feminists-rape
I asked b/c obviously, using your logic, these leftists in the SWP cannot possibly be liberals. Like the Israelis you're accusing, they must be rightwingers who couldn't give a fuck about women.
I have more links to leftists being bad, if you like.
Tell me, what are you proving and what do you think I'm trying to prove here?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Sort of like you, who insists that this little girl must have killed herself to make a lovely example of the sabra ideal look bad.
Sort of like how you insist that all those women claiming they were coerced into long-term birth control must be filthy lying whores.
shira
(30,109 posts)Sort of like how you insist that all those women claiming they were coerced into long-term birth control must be filthy lying whores.
I never wrote or insisted any such thing.
Why lie?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And yes, you did. Remember we were discussing that deal with depoprovera being administered against the wishes of the recipients, and you insisted the story was libel - that is, that the women making the claim were liars? I asked whether you thought so because htey're women, becuase they're black, or because they're Jews, since people like you believe all three groups are inherently untrustworthy.
Here we have Iman al-Hams, whose death by a hail of bullets at close range must be fake, because a military court found that the only two witnesses it considered testimony from recanted. of course she's still dead, and "Captain R" is still on record in communications as having killed her, so your insistence that this too is "libel" must lead to this convoluted scheme I described where Iman and these two recanting witnesses plotted a course to embarass "captain R" that involved her shooting herself ninteen times, three in the head, while they somehow falsified radio transmissions.
shira
(30,109 posts)I wrote that the women very well may have made their arguments fearing reprisals from their husbands, simply for being on birth control (which their husbands would not like). I fully support the women and would never call them liars. It's well known many Ethiopian men are against birth control.
I didn't say her death was fake. I'm still looking for real evidence she was shot by a hail of bullets up close. I'm finding nothing in Israeli media confirming that.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Your post is about a single soldier's actions. Since when does a single low ranking member of any large organization ever define its policies or culture?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Granted it's not especially high-ranking, either, but we're not talking about an E-2, are we?
His rank isn't the problem though. It's that his organization - the Israeli Defense forces - covered for, excused, acquitted, then rewarded him.
Which is the same organization that produced this:
Staff-Sgt S. was convicted in 2010 for shooting and killing a Palestinian woman, 64, and her daughter, 35, who were part of a group of Palestinians approaching him waving a white flag. His superiors had not ordered him to shoot.
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/66120/ex-israeli-soldier-sentenced-in-gaza-war-crime/
Defied orders, fired on people carrying a white flag, murdering two unarmed civilians. He gets 45 days.
The same system that brings us this:
The Jerusalem district court said it decided not to jail Nachum Korman for the killing of 11-year-old Hilmi Shusha four years ago because he had only been convicted of manslaughter by negligence, and had served eight months in prison. It fined him 70,000 shekels (about £11,600).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jan/22/israel
Beat an eleven year-old boy to death, eight months and some change.
And of course, when Israelis use children as human shields...
"The slap on the wrist for these soldiers is another slap in the face for the victims of violations during Operation Cast Lead," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "Not only do these sentences seem unjustifiably lenient, but two years later, they are the only sentences Israel has handed down for serious human rights violations among the many alleged during the Gaza offensive."
The court ruling, which demoted two staff sergeants to the rank of sergeant and gave them suspended three-month sentences, sends a dangerous signal that the Israeli military justice system will not seriously sanction soldiers convicted for offenses that are war crimes under international law, Human Rights Watch said.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/11/26/israel-soldiers-punishment-using-boy-human-shield-inadequate
And there's the murder of Tom Hurndall... oh, I'm sorry, the manslaughter of Tom Hurndall...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taysir_Hayb
Well hey, it's a sentencing measured in years. Guess it helps if the murdered is a white foreign allied-national, instead of just a worthless Palestinian girl, huh?
Keep telling yourself this is all "bad apples," Shaktimaan. I heard the same argument from Rush Limbaugh when he cheerfully called the Abu Ghraib abuses "frat hazing" and insisted those of us who thought it was a problem were "America-haters."
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Is that you said that your example proved that the IDF 's boast, (that it is the most female-friendly army on the planet), was a lie, but I am still not really seeing anything in here that refutes this claim of theirs at all.
The Manpower Directorate awarded the IDF that honor based on the opportunities offered to women, and the high percentage of female officers.
IOW, the compliment was referring to the IDF being the best army for women TO BELONG TO, not to be OCCUPIED BY.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)You are primarily being critical here of the relatively lax punishments meted out to the Israeli perpetrators of crimes against Palestinians, right?
In a lot of these examples though you confuse the IDF, Miilitary Tribunals, and the civilian courts. They aren't all the same system at all, anyway you look at it.
Actually I don't know the actual reason why the sentencing range is so inconsistent. Do you? Like, did someone tell you that explanation, like an Israeli judge or something? Because if not then you certainly are shockingly comfortable leveling charges like racism against people you don't know anything about.
Just because both rush and I use apple terms doesn't mean the IDF is the equivalent of Abu Ghraib-type criminals. I dont even think the criminals you listed here come anywhere close to AG soldiers regarding their copious violations of geneva conventions for their callous entertainment.
Amyway, you don't think that the abuses you listed here are just isolated, individual events. That much is obvious. So if they are not just random events, individuals making bad snap decisions, (an accident over here, an abuse of power by a different person 2 years later, etc.) then WHAT exactly are you suggesting IS happening?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Whether they are the same system or no, the results they produce end up looking very similar. A cow's gut is very different from a horse's gut, but the product is still shit, right? I'm drawing a point on an overall problem.
"Shocking"? Shaktimaan... I hate to break it to you, but there simply is no other explanation.
Can you think of a good reason to beat an eleven year old boy to death? Can you think of any reason why a person who does so is sentenced to eight months and a fine?
For contrast, Palestinian teenagers who smash car windows get twice as long in prison
Here in the United States, kidnapping is a federal offense, and punishable by five to eight years behind bars. In most US states, aggravated assault convictions run anywhere from one to twenty years. In my own state, being found of animal cruelty carries a minimum of two years, with chance of probation. What does one count of kidnapping, three counts of aggravated assault, and one count of animal cruelty lead to in Israel? Eighteen months, a year of probation, and a fine.
Chuck rocks at Israeli soldiers? Nineteen months and a fine
Do I have word from an Israeli judge that this is based in bigotry? No, I admittedly don't. Nor do I have one from Judge Curtis Swango affirming that the trial over Emmett Till's murder was a total farce. Not being stupid however, I'm still able to suss out what's going on.
No, I don't believe they are isolated, random events. I believe that anti-Arab racism is epidemic in Israel, and this is the sort of fruit it bears. Moreover, it's evident that the Israeli justice system - whether military or civil - is either unable to curb this, or as I feel is more likely, unwilling to do so.
Whenever a court decides that breaking the windows of a car merits greater penalty than bludgeoning a child to death, my feeling is that there is something very wrong. How about you?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)When I referred to inconsistent sentencing I was talking about comparing soldiers to soldiers. Not soldiers to Palestinians. For example, while one soldier convicted of killing a Palestinian child might only get a few months, the most recent conviction was given a life sentence. There's a wide disparity between sentences levied against Israelis convicted of killing Palestinians.
That's just my point though. There is no single court deciding such a thing. You're comparing military courts ruling against and convicting non-citizens who engaged with Israelis versus Israeli criminal courts convicting Israelis. They are two separate systems with different standards.
The biggest difference I see is not one of race but citizenship. Tom Hurdnall was white, sure. And the IDF soldier who killed him was Arab. But that harsh sentence was passed only because of the vigilance of tom's parents and their relentless PR war waged on his behalf. Rachel Corrie was a white US national yet her killer was never convicted.
It seems pretty clear to me that the most obvious difference is not necessarily race but different citizenships and court systems. It's as though you are comparing sentences passed against afghan nationals convicted of attacking US soldiers versus US civilian contractor convicted of killing an afghan civilian. Of course the contractor is going to face less jail time. But it is not because of anti-Arab racism.
That said there is plenty of anti-Arab racism and discrimination in Israel. How could there not be? They have been fighting a conflict for 80+ years that is split entirely down ethnic lines. The LACK of endemic racism in Israel is more astonishing to me than the fact that racism does exist at all.
So there's racism. Though maybe not in the manner or to the extent you postulated. But so what? Do you have a greater point beyond that?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shouldn't we also acknowledge the occurrence of sexual assault within the IDF?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4179717,00.html
http://972mag.com/idf-colonel-rabbi-implies-rape-is-permitted-in-war/39535/
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/idf-physician-under-investigation-for-multiple-rapes-and-sexual-assaults.premium-1.506457
http://www.haaretz.com/news/general-staff-document-large-rise-in-number-of-rapes-in-idf-1.210809
The IDF may include women, but just how friendly is it in regards to the above.
And before you think that I am singling out the IDF only, the US forces have also a lot of splaining to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2012/oct/29/rape-military-shocking-truth
When testosterone, combat troops, and force are involved there is nothing friendly to women.
One more observation. This has absolutely nothing to do with he I/P conflict. Why did you post it here?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Well, what are you comparing it to? For Israel, during an apparently horrible year, (in the first half of 2006), there were 10 reported rapes of on duty female soldiers and 18 reports wrt off-duty female soldiers. At any given time roughly one third of the IDF is female, so out of 60,000 female IDF soldiers, around 56 would have reported being raped in 2006 (extrapolated.) IOW less than a tenth of one percent.
Compare that to America where roughly 20% of all female soldiers report being victims of sexual assault.
By all accounts the IDF takes this issue really seriously and the incidence of attacks against female IDF soldiers seems to be super low compared to other militaries.
delrem
(9,688 posts)war propaganda posters
https://www.google.ca/search?q=war+propaganda+posters+pictures&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Z7U6Uf2pN9LSqAHKj4DADg&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=643&sei=brU6UefTOMenrQHXgYGYBg
oh yes, the exact right kind of chest pounding shit to drag into the I/P group.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)
King_David
(14,851 posts)From their own shackles in Gaza.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113434104
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Equal rights are good for women except when it's Israel. Haters gonna hate.
cali
(114,904 posts)calling out haters is overwhelming
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Is cali one of these imaginary people on DU?
All I see is you guys covering for Hamas' treatment of women, while bashing....
Please proceed, Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)What are you actually saying about cali?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=34888
Is cali one of these imaginary people on DU?
Please proceed, Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Bookmarking.
cali
(114,904 posts)Palestinians is striking. You can say that it's only Hamas that you hate, but what you post here shows that to be merely a veil.
And yes there are people here who hate Israelis while saying they don't. That doesn't make what you do, any better.
shira
(30,109 posts)There's no reason to hate Palestinians. However, Hamas is different. Hamas does not represent all Palestinians as they oppress pretty much everyone (women, children, gays, christians).
I think the problem with many here is they confuse the people with Hamas, so that criticism of Hamas = criticism of all Palestinians. And maybe that's why so many do not like any criticism of Hamas, believing that such criticism is rightwing, bigoted, etc.
IMO, it's not difficult hating an organization of religious zealots whose agenda is to victimize and/or kill women, gays, christians, jews, blacks, asians, atheists, and liberals. Hamas deserves absolutely zero respect.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)2) Who confuses Hamas with the Palestinian people here, Shira?
I'm not sure that anybody, as you say, is that confused.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)BREAKING THE SILENCE
Women Soldiers’ Testimonies
*Again, a female combatant who can lash out is a serious fighter. Capable. A ball-breaker.
There was one with me when I got there, she’d been there long before, she was
– wow, everyone talked about what grit she had, because she could humiliate Arabs
without batting an eyelash. That was the thing to do.
... I think guys need to prove themselves less in this respect, but it was not clearly
stated. We did talk about how the tough female-combatant has no problem beating
up Arabs. It’s obvious, you don’t even need to spell it out. This one means business,
you should see her humiliating them – there was no problem to say something like
this out loud. Take a look at that one, a real ‘ball-breaker,’ see her humiliating them,
slapping them, what a slap she gave that guy! You hear this kind of talk all the time.
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Women_Soldiers_Testimonies_2009_Eng.pdf
shira
(30,109 posts)For women?
Is it because you see the idf as a bunch of thugs rather than defense against relentless, ruthless, cruel, fanatical enemies who hate Jews with a passion?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)behave as badly as many of the men in the IDF.
No kudos.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)" ruthless, cruel, fanatical enemies who hate Jews with a passion?" could seem that way 
cali
(114,904 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)gee, I don't like war. shocking, isn't it? How dare I?
shira
(30,109 posts)Sometimes war comes to you and you have no choice but to defend your life and those of your friends, family and countrymen.
I can assure you Israelis would rather not see their kids and grandchildren all in the IDF doing this shit 50 years from now.
cali
(114,904 posts)they are not without power either.
Shira, seriously, do you not understand that Israel's occupation greatly contributes to war? And please, don't speak for others. It's not your place to do so.
shira
(30,109 posts)No, I don't understand that. Occupation didn't lead to either the 1948 or 1967 wars.
In fact, it can be argued that Israel ending its occupation in Gaza 2005 led to the last 2 wars vs. Hamas. Same WRT ending the occupation in Lebanon which lead to the 2006 war.
And please, don't speak for others. It's not your place to do so.
You mean Palestinian victims of Hamas? Who speaks for them? Certainly not most of their alleged pro-Palestinian supporters.
cali
(114,904 posts)and other atrocities. You know that.
shira
(30,109 posts)You know that.
No comparison to Hamas.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... including the very Charter of Hamas ... that advocate ethnic cleansing of Jews. Or, does that not count?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I'm not sure how one can be simultaneously for peace yet also expect the Palestinians to accept 60% of what was theirs.
The illegal settlements, military zones and blockades are obstacles to peace inasmuch as they are examples of the violence visited on the Palestinians by Israel every day.
You will be seeing that kind of 'shit' just as long as Israel keeps on taking land, burning crops, incarcerating children, shooting children and marginalizing the Palestinian people while denying that they do it.
shira
(30,109 posts)...the rest could be negotiated. Temporary borders are just that - temporary. Just as Israel should've turned over Gaza in 2005.
Your all-or-nothing approach is bullshit.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)While Israel steals the rest.
Anybody who supports the theft of another people's land is beneath bullshit.
Please proceed, Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Yeah, right.
Please proceed, Shira.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 14, 2013, 07:35 AM - Edit history (1)
Israel has no intention of surrendering what it has thefted.oh yea...before begin returned the sinai to Egypt and two settlements destroyed
before the withdrawl from gaza and the settlements destroyed (then the mantra was that israel must make the first move, destroy settlements, etc
Withdrawl from Lebanon (remember israel needed the water......)
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its always fun watching how the mantra remains the same, even when the "conditions" have been met, such as destroying settlements, withdrawing, agreeing to stop shooting.
the problem apparently is the various Palestinian groups simply don't agree with the western progressives concept of what has to be done and what constitutes a "proper reaction to israel moves..so its always fun watching the "progressive" scramble and justify the Palestinian reaction that did not fit the "progressive original scenario."
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)every plot of West Bank land that it has thefted? Please, do tell. 
pelsar
(12,283 posts)but the principle that israel can give land away for peace has been proven....and within those actions we have learned that the reaction from the other side is not always positive nor peaceful and may not even last (MB in egypt, arab spring)
and that is the key for that has had an influence on the israeli attitude toward the west bank...but that is the subject "that cannot be discussed here".........
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outside of that, land ownership has never impressed me as being some kind of "holy of holies" so i hardly believe that is the real obstical for long term peace, and that is what i'm concerned with not some narrow ethno-centric version of 'justice" (which is what i believe your viewpoint is)
so too answer your question: i doubt it, i think the settlers did a damn good job of creating facts on the ground.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I doubt it as well. My viewpoint is not derived from some "narrow ethno-centric version of 'justice'", but it is something deeper: an issue of human rights.
And just so we're clear that same viewpoint of human rights that I have for the Palestinians is also extended to Israel and any place else having to deal with oppression.
I was a firm believer and defender of Israel pre Sabra and Shatilla, but after that I started to question what it was doing in the WB and Gaza. I didn't side with the PLO and never have, but I did start to dissect more what Israel's position was.
Israel has every right to defend itself, but that act of defense stops when it becomes a colonizing power while it plays an offensive game.
I would agree, like in the instance of the Sinai, that Israel should hold out for peace, but not exploit the situation through colonization and make any chance for peace untenable.
If Israel were attacked by country X tomorrow and lost half of its territory what would your opinion be of land ownership then?
My opinion would be that I would side with and support Israel.
So yes, I hardly speak for Israel, but I can criticize it for its abuses on human rights.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)so....at least lets clear that aspect: The taliban, the saudis, the Iranian govt i do believe they also have a "deeper version" of what defines human rights and i would bet they too also define their versions as universal, infact there s is god given which probably beats your "human defined version.
care to explain to me how your version beats theirs? and how yours isn't ethno centric?
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as far as "Israel has the right to defend itself" really? does israel have to right to blow up a kassam/grad misslie while its on its launcher with various Palestinians within the radius of the explosion?
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my definition of "right" for nations to own land is not based on a god given right, nor any historical rights...there are two criteria: politically that its a western democracy from the start without that it has no right to even exist. Criteria two involves its abiiity to defend itself from non democratic forces on its borders....and that goes for all western democratic states. Land grabs from non democratic states for defensive proposes are legit, and when they become democratic it will be less of an issue.
but landowner ship for political reasons, for the creation of a non democratic state for whatever the reason is a non starter in my book and anyone who claims they are interested in "human rights" yet promotes/helps/aids in the creation of a dictatorship just doesn't cut it in my view.
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i have no problem with the principle of critcism of israelis screwups and injustices, however in the framework of the I/P conflict, i believe in a single standard.....and that means the PA/Hamas should be getting the bulk of the criticisms.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Since I didn't bring any of the aforementioned players into my response to you why should I bother?" Why not add the Russians or the Chinese in as well to dilute from the dialog that Israel can be criticized?
And since you ignored the comment and question below you are hardly in a position to keep on moving the goalposts.
If Israel were attacked by country X tomorrow and lost half of its territory what would your opinion be of land ownership then?
My opinion would be that I would side with and support Israel.
So yes, I hardly speak for Israel, but I can criticize it for its abuses on human rights.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)but first.... i mentioned that your version of "human rights" is ethnocentric...i believe you claim it isn't. so the reason you should "bother" is because i would like to see how you can claim your views of human rights are not ethnocentric in comparison to the views of russians, taliban, Chinese all of whom have different cultures and different viewpoints of this "human rights".
perhaps explain how yours version is not ethnocentric..........
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i actually did answer: all democracies have to right to defense, and if that includes taking land from non democracies, than that is legit especially if its to avoid a scenario where they are attacked a and lose their land and many lives in the process.
but lets expand upon this "defense" I notice that you skipped over the blowing up of the kassam/grad while on a launcher...well, your turn to answer, is that legit defense or not....(just for the record, this question is never answered, so you can find some of that "internet courage' and be the first)
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R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I don't support Hamas, or the use of rockets fired into Israel. If Israel can stop the use of rockets on their civilians then they are in the right to use force to destroy them.
I have made it painfully obvious that I am a humanist, and do not support killing.
What is not a legitimate defense of a democracy is to take land and then populate it with its citizens.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)but unfortunately i dont rule israel and i cant turn the clock back....and the settlers were pretty smart taking advantage of the situation to create some facts on the ground, and the Palestinians were pretty stupid not to realize what was happening to make some equally smart moves to counter it.
on the other hand, democracies do have the right to expand, take land and create democracies where none existed before and i dont give a "hoot about what some of the pseudo natives and their "friends" think about that.
If Israel can stop the use of rockets on their civilians then they are in the right to use force to destroy them.
so i take it than that is a yes, israel can blow up the kassams/grads while being ready to launch even though there will be Palestinians, even innocent ones hurt/killed (there is no way the pilot could predict the results of his missile)
notice i'm asking for a definitive answer here...can u do it?
and what about those talibans and their god given right to put women in potato sacks, stone adulteress, etc
whats wrong with their version of justice?
(do they have any volcanos in Afganistan? perhaps a few virgins tossed in will help the opium crop)
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)60% of what land? More importantly, why is it exclusively Palestinian land to begin with?
Did something happen when i wasn't looking, where Palestine was granted specific plots of land and assured that it belonged to the Palestinians as a national group?
Is it considered theft if Israeli Jews move onto property in EJ that had been purchased/owned by Jews who were then ethnically cleansed?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Then why is it that the greatest resistance by far comes from gaza, a region that Israel withdrew from entirely in 2005?
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... you're harshing the meme.