Welcome To Palestine: What's Your Faith?

[cali]

President Barack Obama is going to Bethlehem for Easter. When I heard this my first instinct was to book a flight from Newark to Tel Aviv to join him. My apartment in Bethlehem (Palestine, not Pennsylvania) is a stone’s throw away from where the President of the United States will be on his first official trip to the Holy Land and who better to guide him than me, his former delegate? His guide, in reality, will be some corrupt, Palestinian Authority puppet. But if I were be President Obama's guide, this would be our itinerary:

We would begin our trip by having POTUS forego Air Force One to join me at customs in Ben Gurion airport. Here could witness how U.S. citizens are discriminated against, depending on their faith, from the moment they step foot in Israel. For giggles, I'd let him call the U.S. embassy for help. They could inform him they won't help him because although he's POTUS, he's still the wrong religion. The airport is in Tel Aviv and I know that POTUS “wishes he could wear a fake mustache and roam around Tel Aviv.” I would never let him do this. I'd explain to him, as we drove past Jerusalem, that it'd be far too dangerous; then educate him on the violence and hate crimes endured by the African population living in Israel.

Our first stop would be to the heart of segregation, Hebron. We'd stroll down Shuhada Street and he could see with his own eyes what settlements really are–religiously exclusive housing. I'd explain that, although I was his delegate at the 2008 DNC, I no longer support the president because his veto of U.N. resolution blahblahblah endorsed, excused, and encouraged this horror. He could see how lovely the supremacist settlers are. How they throw garbage/feces and spit at the natives who happen to be the wrong faith. He voted to protect hate, bigotry, and supremacy; so he should enjoy it.

Continuing our lesson on modern day segregation, or apartheid, or bigotry or whatever you choose to label this, we would jump on the bypass road, and head to Jerusalem. Just kidding! POTUS needs to live like the Palestinians do, so no paved roads with traffic lights and a direct route to Jerusalem that the settlers enjoy. Instead, he'd get to take the Palestinian’s road with me. I’ll drive, because it’s super dangerous. The roads are narrow and the curves are meant to be killer. Here he can get his first taste of a checkpoint. We'd be stuck there quite a while, so it'd be a good time to explain to him that Palestinians are forced to carry Israeli-issued IDs that state their religion.

<snip>

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/20/welcome-to-palestine-what-s-your-faith.html

[dipsydoodle]

1. Cynicism at its best

[cali]

2. It's cynical alright, but I don't think that was its main thrust.

Last edited Thu Mar 21, 2013, 07:08 AM - Edit history (1)

I hope you read the whole piece. It's quite powerful.

[dipsydoodle]

4. Yes it is powerful

In related news :

In a joint news conference with Netanyahu late Wednesday, the U.S. president didn't mention settlements at all when asked about the lack of progress during his first term toward resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Instead he suggested a low-key approach, saying he came to hear from Abbas and Netanyahu and that "it is a hard slog to work through all these issues."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_MIDEAST_SETTLEMENTS_ANALYSIS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-03-21-04-42-29

"Instead he suggested"..................read as he avoided the issue which is one of main international concerns.

[cstanleytech]

14. "the U.S. president" keywords there though.

Yes, the president of the U.S. can attempt to encourage, cajole and outright threaten another nation with things like a cut off of aid such as Israel, Iran, N. Korea, Egypt, China and other nations but in the end they are still only the president of the U.S. and not of the entire world.

[MADem]

3. I found this curious--particularly since it seems to be a custom that predates DNA....

Maternal heritage is pretty cut-and-dried, but we're not dealing with a matriarchal society in this instance...

They have no choice in what that religion is–so even if you’re an atheist (many Palestinians are: how could you not lose faith in God living here?) on the ID's atheist is not an option. You are what your parents are. Oh and if your mom is Christian and your dad is Muslim, the ID will say Muslim. Even if you identify as Christian, like POTUS does, by Israeli standards, he’d still be tagged Muslim. (I promise not to tell the Tea Party.)

[shira]

5. Wow, you read this & you wouldn't know Israelis are constantly under attack....

....by Palestinians who are still being encouraged, rewarded, and honored for those attacks by their PA leadership. You wouldn't know that before the 2nd Intifada, there was none of this "Jim Crow".

This article is gross, bigoted spew. No better than the NYT article on Nabi Saleh's poor victims resisting the evil IDF with their "non" violence (while being 100% on board with Hamas' genocidal intentions). No better than accusing the Zionists (we know who they are) of being evil racist ethnic cleansers due to a war in 1947 the Palestinians started....

Sick.

Here's a comment below the article at the website:

There is a coffee urn outside a Jewish home in Hebron which has about twenty bullet holes in it from Palestinian sniper shots.

Maybe Obama and his team should go there for a cup of Joe. He might get the same feeling as black Americans who moved into white communities in the 1960s. The Palestinians in Hebron would make good candidates for the Klu Klux Klan welcoming committee.

That kind of KKK behavior is strongly encouraged and rewarded by Hamas and PLO leadership, but apparently that's okay b/c the victims.....well, they just can't be victims anymore and haven't been since 1945. "They" are the oppressors.

[leveymg]

7. . . . and that excuses everything, right?

[cali]

9. So are Palestinians. But that's not entirely germane

It's so ironic that you're charging the Palestinians with KKK behavior and can't even recognize what the Israeli gov't is doing: The grinding, day in day out oppression as detailed in this piece that has a huge effect on Palestinians. And the WB is NOT controlled by Hamas so leave that out.

What's sick is the utter denial that the Palestinians are oppressed by the Israeli gov't. It's disgusting, vile, repulsive to anyone with a shred of decency.

[shira]

23. The article makes it appear Israel just started doing checkpoints....

....separate roads, and heightened security because they're bigoted racists. There's nothing about why Israel has checkpoints and all these other things that didn't exist prior to the 2nd Intifada.

It's a smear job that completely whitewashes Palestinian terror and the irresponsibility of their gov't (the PA/Hamas) to continue encouraging and rewarding it.

[cali]

26. No it's not a smear job. That it has a perspective doesn't make it one.

Anymore than some of the right wing stuff that you post makes those a smear job against Palestinians- though much of what you choose to post is so far right wing that it does constitute a smear job.

Asking someone their religion? Not allowing someone to declare atheist. All about "bloodline"? Hmm. Yeah, that's not fascist oppressive bullshit. Not at all.

[shira]

29. It's fascinating to see what u view as bigoted & rightwing WRT Israel/Palestine

You probably still believe the article from the NYT last Sunday about the Nabi Saleh Tamimis starting a 3rd Intifada isn't rightwing in the least, but in actuality it doesn't get more rightwing than romanticizing Hamas' genocidal ideology in deed, if not by word.

Same here with this article, as it's very bigoted hate speech meant to slander Jews (misrepresent the situation, leading people to view Jews as horrible racists). It's anti-Israel articles like these with half-truths & lies by omission that lead otherwise decent people to believe Israel is conducting a Nazi style genocidal program against the Palestinians. I shit you not....

Here's what such fascist rightwing propaganda leads to, in Germany of all places:

The Jerusalem Post, 2004:

"Six decades after the mass extermination of six million Jews in the Holocaust by Nazi Germany, more than 50 percent of Germans believe that Israel's present-day treatment of the Palestinians is similar to what the Nazis did to the Jews during World War II, a German survey released this weekend shows.

51 percent of respondents said that there is not much of a difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today and what the Nazis did to the Jews during the Holocaust, compared to 49% who disagreed with such a comparison, according to the poll carried out by Germany's University of Bielefeld.

The survey also found that 68 percent of Germans believe that Israel is waging a "war of extermination" against the Palestinians, while some 32% disagreed with such a statement."

That you cannot see what's happening before your eyes is what I find so fascinating. Others here (not you) pretend not to see it & are willful participants in the demonization effort. It's this constant, daily demonization that leads to 68% of people believing the Jews want to exterminate the Palestinians.

Same old anti-semitic spew from the last couple thousand years. Matzo made with Christian blood, poisoning wells, protocols, etc. All rightwing and fascist. And then there are the Leftwing Fascists too...

===========

ETA:

If you really want to show that I do the same or worse vs. Palestinians, then show me articles I've posted here that are misleading and falsely portray Palestinians and/or their leadership as racists, murderers, etc. That would be demonization vs. the Palestinians.

[cali]

33. You mean the dog shit you regularly post from propaganda outlets

like Israel National News which is no better than Press TV? Or the bigoted racist crap from Front Page, honey?

Disgustingly disingenuous. In your sad little world, up is down, blue is red, occupation is a blessing. sick shit.

[azurnoir]

34. gosh cali you just attacked me for simply agreeing

with someone who said something quite similar in much more civil manner , why is that?

[shira]

35. Arutz Sheva and FrontPageMag? Are you confusing me w/ someone else?

And now I regularly post from them?

When you're able to provide even one example of me demonizing Palestinians with slanderous, fallacious filth you let me know.

[Mosby]

36. you completely missed shira's point

The point being that the author of this piece is using a standard technique of stripping away all the context of the current situation in the OTs. You damn well know why there are checkpoints and a security fence in the WB. The Palestinians themselves, without anyone's help created this situation, and could change it if they would sit down without absurd preconditions and move the process forward with the GOI.

Don't bother replying, from our past interactions I know that you think I'm beneath you, I'm not nearly as good a writer as you and probably less educated as well but fwiw neither me or shira or any of the liberal zionists here were ever given a time out by skinner like you were.

Edit: no one here posts from FPM and articles from arutz sheva are occasionally posted here by both "sides".

[azurnoir]

37. with all due respect

and allowing that at this point the check points and walls are still necessary, the question id why is it necessary to include ones religion on an ID card?

[shira]

38. AFAIK, those are WRT Palestinian ID cards, not Israeli ones....

And I have no idea why....

[Israeli]

40. not Israeli ones....

What about the Israeli ones shira ?

The author Yoram Kaniuk is expected to ask the Tel Aviv District Court this morning to order the Interior Ministry to permit him to "leave the Jewish religion" by altering his entry under the heading "religion" in the Population Registry. Kaniuk wants any official state document on which he appears as "Jewish" to be changed to "Without Religion."

An earlier request to the Interior Ministry was turned down and Kaniuk explains in his petition that he does not wish to be part of a "Jewish Iran" or belong to "what is today called the religion of Israel."

Because the State of Israel does not recognize the Jewish nationality they suggested at the Interior Ministry that I convert to Christianity or Islam, but to be a member of the Jewish nation without the religion is impossible.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israeli-author-yoram-kaniuk-asks-court-to-cancel-his-jewish-status-1.361720

[Scootaloo]

39. Actually I'm still puzzled by that "security fence"

One, I don't know of many fences thirty feet tall and a foot and a half thick of reinforced concrete. Should we start calling it the Moderately Okay Fence of China?

Two, rather like that Moderately Okay Fence, this one isn't all that great at keeping people out.

Here's the gate at Masha village.


The wall section at A-ram, near Jerusalem





Abu Dis:






The BBC actually did a report on this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6194906.stm

And apparently every week Israeli police arrest ~4,000 Palestinaisn who have illegally entered, while it's estimated there are generally thirty thousand such unauthorized Palestinians in Israel on any given day.

Now if old ladies can get across to attend mosque, if kids can hop past it to get to school, if men can climb over it to get under-the-table work, if cabdrivers can just take back roads to get through uncompleted sections... can you ell me what the fuck is stopping all these suicide bombers from doing that stuff? I mean I'm not intimately familiar with the schematics, but I don't imagine a strap-on bomb gives you more girth than some moderately chubby guys, and if Moore's Law applies to suicidal explosive devices, well, then?

According to Shin Bet, the wall has squat to do with the lack of suicide bombers.

The Shin Bet's statistics on terror attacks confirm the public perception that terrorist activity in 2005 dropped considerably compared to the previous four and a half years. The main reason for the sharp decline is the truce in the territories, the security service said yesterday.
...
The Shin Bet and the Israel Defense Forces attribute the reduction mainly to the improvement in their joint capability to foil terrorist attacks and to act against terrorist organizations.

The security fence is no longer mentioned as the major factor in preventing suicide bombings, mainly because the terrorists have found ways to bypass it. The fence does make it harder for them, but the flawed inspection procedures at its checkpoints, the gaps and uncompleted sections enable suicide bombers to enter Israel.

So the the "security fence," in addition to not actually being a fence, doesn't actually provide security. According to Israel's main security forces.

But it does end up confiscating a hell of a lot of territory for Israel, doesn't it? After all, everything on the "Israel" (*cough*) side of the wall is considered "abandoned property."

Compare to the wall being built between Israel and Egypt, which sticks to the border and, amazingly, elicits no complaints (Well, except from the Bedouin, but all told they have bigger problems with both Israel and Egypt...)

[pelsar]

41. timelines...important part of demonization....

so i shall correct what either you dont know, dont care to know or even if you knew, probably would plead ignorance.

events in the middle east are based on specific times. One cannot measure a past solution based on present events.

the building of the wall, a solution pushed by both left and right in Israel was part of the solution to the busses being blown up, together, they succeed in stopping those massacres. Along with the dreaded check posts, intelligence and other such nefarious activities by the IDF.

it worked quite well, as once it was built the bombings slowed down and then stopped as the potential bombers were stopped.

Today, things have changed, the attempts for now have stopped....but as history has shown, it would be foolish to believe that the intense attempts wont start up again, and then those holes will be closed again.

flexibility in policies are good policies, but it takes an open mind to do understand that, you unfortunatly do not appear to have such flexibility.

[Scootaloo]

43. So you're telling me...

That as it was being built - that is, when it was even less complete... it was more effective, and that Shin bet and the IDF have not the first fucking clue what they're talking about?

'Cause really, it's not as though terrorists were driving the buses over the Green Line like guided missles of public transportation. They were boarding them while wearing or carrying bombs. And as we've just seen, the wall has lots of gaps now, and it had more then. I don't put a lot of stock on the cognitive abilities of a dude who's set to blow himself up like that, but I figure that they at least have enough sense to figure out how to get past a gap-filled wall. I mean could be wrong, could have been some dude sranding at the last pilon of the wall going "well fuck," I don't know. But I doubt it.

You know it probably would have gone up faster, at less expense, if it didn't weave through the West Bank like a concrete wino, right? It'd certainly be easier to patrol in that case as well. Taking longer to build a less secure perimeter at greater expense doesn't sound like "urgent security measure" to me.

Did the construction follow some weird Tibetan sacred geometry, or did they let a three-legged donkey do the surveying? if the latter, that might actually explain the preponderance of Palestinian farmland that just happened to end up on the wrong side of the wall. And the handful of encircled towns and whatnot. But again, following a wobbly ass through the hills doesn't strike me as "urgent security measure." Though it sounds a little fun.

I'm not bothered by the checkpoints or intelligence-gathering on principle (though I think we can both acknowledge that sometimes the execution leaves something to be desired). I wouldn't even be bothered by a bigass wall going up along the Green Line - like I said, no problem with what's being built on the Egypt border, or what Egypt is building at the Gaza border to stop tunnels - But you're not going to tell me that an easily-scaled, gap-filled, largely unpatrolled wall that weaves and ducks through other people's backyards and just happens to annex those yards to your own (and occasionally walls up your neighbor's house), that took five years to not-completely-build, is a highly-effective and integral measure for security.

Especially when the agencies charged with such things as security are saying it's not.

I mean you can try, but I think your time is better-spent taking your tippy equine for a hike

[pelsar]

48. no..i'm teaching you...what you dont know....ready?

Last edited Fri Mar 22, 2013, 02:29 PM - Edit history (1)

take a deep breath......
when the wall was being built and when the bombers were succeeding there were a lot more army patrols in the area...there were more checkpoints, more soldiers with observing the movements....hence the gaps in the unbuilt areas were not so much "gaps" since there were soldiers there. The wall made better use of the limited resources of the IDF. and the history is clear on that, not much to argue if one looks at the real timeline.

today....as the intensity of the bomb attempts have lessened dramatically, so too have the checkpoints. The amount of IDF personal in the area has dropped and there is less concern for the infiltration.

No2:
bombers dont carry their bombs in on their back, they arent to bright. The bombs are first smuggled in via ambulances, trucks, taxis, donkeys, UN vehicles (anything that moves), the bombers walk in via the check posts as innocent people and their handlers (smarter ones) direct them to the bomb etc. So its a bit more sophisticated then some idiote walking through a check point with a bomb, and intelligence either from the PA (scared of hamas, now) or Israel plays a stronger part now than it did in the past)

as far as the actual positioning of the wall...it was designed to protect israeli lives, including those in the settlements and also as a land grap and probably as a punishment....

there is that old rule that seems to be a problem to grasp by some: actions have consequences....when killing people of a strong state, the consequences, history has shown is neither fair nor just, and usually harsh, here we have a good example.

[King_David]

46. "either you dont know"

My guess .

Post after post has proven this .

For example :She claimed Ethiopians in israel were not Jewish ( because an article " never mentioned it&quot post after post..and a lot of them posts like "authorities " on Zionism when they don't understand what it means.

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. thank you very much for posting. Someone has to tell the truth and expose the lies. Thank you

so much for doing that. There can be no peace until people know the truth and the culture of denial is defeated. Thank you again.

"To confront Zionism is to encounter an endless wall of denial." - the late Edward W. Said

[cali]

10. Don't thank me. I didn't write it. I just posted it

And I'm glad to do that.

[Douglas Carpenter]

8. How Obama Became Netanyahu by Peter Beinart

Obama is essentially telling Palestinians to keep their heads down until an Israeli leader comes along who wants to create a viable Palestinian state. Or until ordinary Israelis stop worrying about the ultra-Orthodox and the price of cottage cheese and create another peace movement. Or until politics change in Washington. He’s telling Palestinians to relinquish every form of counterpressure they have and put themselves at Israel’s and America’s mercy, even though this trip itself is evidence that without Palestinian counterpressure, America and Israel will do little else except entrench the status quo.

By refusing to challenge Netanyahu’s approach to the Palestinians, Obama has made it his own. Like Netanyahu, he’s betting that he can take the Palestinians for granted while tending to his own domestic needs, and that they won’t be able to do anything about it but whine.

But that’s not right. The Palestinians can do something. They can throw Israel, and Barack Obama’s foreign policy, into chaos. For several years now, Israel has benefited enormously from the Palestinian Authority’s security cooperation. Today, instead of making its own 19-year-olds patrol Palestinian neighborhoods and towns, Israel largely leaves that to the Palestinian Authority. When Israeli security officials fear Hamas or Islamic Jihad is hatching a terrorist plot, they don’t always have to send soldiers to foil it themselves. They can just get on the phone to Abbas’s men.

Take the Palestinians for granted, however, and this relative quiet will eventually give way to something far more frightening. In the words of former Palestinian Authority adviser Ghaith al-Omari, Palestinian security cooperation “was predicated on a path leading to liberation and a new state. Soon, very soon, if it is clear that is not happening, they [Palestinian soldiers and police] will feel like suckers enforcing the occupation, and this security regime—like the Palestinian Authority itself—could dissolve.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/20/how-obama-became-netanyahu0.html

[fasttense]

11. Theocracies are always a mess. n/t

[oberliner]

15. Israel is not a theocracy

The government is secular.

[cali]

18. I'd agree with that to some degree: Israel is not a pure theocracy but

the influence of right wing religionists on the gov't and their participation in that government, make the statement that the government is secular, dubious.

[JoDog]

28. Fair point

The government has danced to the tune played by the far-right religious parties for a long time. Anyone can see the evidence of it in the privileges and handouts given to the haredim, which many secular Israelis are tired of.

The new governing coalition takes a lot of power away from the Orthodox parties. However, that means power is going to politicians in favor of settlers, which will lead to an entirely different bramble of thorns.

[fasttense]

42. So, the government does NOT require a person in Israel to identify their religion?

Does Israel give full rights and citizenship to non-Jewish people in the country? Can atheist or other religions vote and hold office?

[shira]

44. There are Atheists, Xtians, & Muslims in the Knesset, Supreme Court, etc. n/t

[fasttense]

45. Thanks, I did not know that.

Are people required to identify their religion?

[Israeli]

47. Yes

See my response to shira # 40 which she ignored .
If you wish to learn more read this :
http://prospect.org/article/jew-no-religion?article=a_jew_of_no_religion

There are many Israeli atheists , also Israelis that have married non-Jews who have not converted to Judaism , their children are not considered Jewish if the mother is not Jewish.
Plus Russian immigrants who are classed as Jewish but celebrate Xmas

[glowing]

12. Everyone has a story and the violence is bound up

in history and power and corruption with modern day warfare at their fingertips. At some point, the violence and the past must be put aside to move forward. I would expect the most common denominator between all the people who are on the ground trying to live their lives is that they wish to live in peace, prosper, and leave a better opportunity and way for their children. At some point the peace and building of bridges has to come from within the people who are on the ground actually enduring the violence, distrust, and want of protection and opportunities for their children. At some point the people of the two sides in conflict in the areas that are disputed and harmed must meet, see each other, recognize one another, and march hand in hand together to demand that resolutions proceed and that the solutions are feasible. Otherwise, this conflict of hating and violence will continue well on into their grandkids or great grandkids lives.

Honestly, for every violent story on one side there is an equal horror or atrocity from the other. It's a mess. And I don't think the govt's are providing the proper solutions for dealing with today and the dynamic that is in the region today. No one is going anywhere. So, now it's time to build those bridges, one heavy stone after another till its a strong and fruitful bridge.

[cali]

13. I'm sorry, but at this point all things are not equal

The blunt fact is, that however this started, whoever was originally more at fault, the Israeli gov't is occupying, oppressing and appropriating more and more Palestinian land.

[glowing]

21. Then how does it end? How do the people move forward?

What should the people on both sides be demanding from the govt in a manner that actually works and stems the violence?

I'd say the first step is for people who have to live it to forget about the govt's and come together to find a solution that they can both live with... If its an equitable sharing of the land and the services? Is it to demand religion not trump personhood? What is it that people want who are living it? What do they want for their future? I would assume at this point both sides are rather hot about the entire issue. It would take great leadership and willingness within the communities most effected by the violence and the land disputes.

Peace is not an easy road when their is so much hurt, death, pain, true grievances, and govt's that are using the division and violence to keep their power and to keep the "military might" necessary. Ultimately, who makes the money off of keeping wars viable? Peace isn't profitable for many people... So, why would they want to cede their power, money, or influence? Hating and fear are powerful motivators for keeping the human race violent against one another.

[quakerboy]

27. It doesnt. They don't.

It just keeps going. Till something changes things. I would hope for a charismatic person leading a movement, a Ghandi type figure. Though my pessimistic side suspects the reverse is more likely, some guy finally manages to drop a literal bomb too big to be ignored. Either way it just keeps going until something fundamentally changes the situation.

Or maybe if outside countries would stop propping up the participants, that would make a difference. Though I am none too certain it would.

[oberliner]

16. She is an American stand-up comedian

I believe she had a guest appearance on "the axis of evil" comedy tour.

I wonder if this is meant tongue-in-cheek.

[cali]

17. Why would you think it's tongue-in-cheek simply because she's a comedian?

And what do you think about the facts she presents? What do you think of the grinding, quotidian humiliation of Palestinians? How do you think that in and of itself impacts Palestinians?

[oberliner]

24. Because comedians often write parodies

And online it is sometimes hard to tell one from other.

If it is simply a straight factual account then that is different.

[Douglas Carpenter]

19. you are genuinely psychosocially incapable of honesty, ain't you

As loony as Shira's ravings are - she at least believes what she is saying. You intentionally try to trick people.

[cali]

20. I don't believe that's true about Oberliner

but in any case, I don't see how this enriches the discussion in any way.

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. sorry, you are probably right about his not enriching the discussion

I once thought a peace agreement was possible in our time. I no longer think that. I find it hard to control my words when I continually see the wall of denial.

[cali]

25. I understand. It is painful. I don't think a peace agreement is possible either.

[azurnoir]

30. FWiW

Last edited Fri Mar 22, 2013, 01:50 AM - Edit history (1)

+1

[cali]

31. Ugh.

[azurnoir]

32. thank you cali

knew I( could count on you