Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumProtesters hurl rocks in clashes over Women of the Wall prayer service at Kotel
Riot police were out in full force Friday at the Western Wall trying to contain ultra-Orthodox demonstrators attempting to break through barricades to approach Women of the Wall supporters and activists holding their monthly prayer service in the women’s section.
Three people were arrested and two police officers were injured in the protests, in which demonstrators at several points threw water bottles and chairs in the direction of the women’s section, while calling the police “Nazis” and shouting at them “Go back to Germany.”
Police formed a human barricade to hold back the protesters when the women exited the prayer plaza after they had concluded their service. After they had passed through Dung Gate, a group of ultra-Orthodox protesters began throwing rocks in their direction. They continued to throw rocks at buses that delivered the women away from the violent protests.
<snip>
As expected, members of the women’s group were not detained this month for wearing prayer shawls, as police complied with a new ruling by the Jerusalem District Court that such practice does not violate the “local custom.”
<snip>
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/protesters-hurl-rocks-in-clashes-over-women-of-the-wall-prayer-service-at-kotel.premium-1.523333?localLinksEnabled=false
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oberliner
(58,724 posts)The article you linked to is behind a pay wall.
Do you pay for Ha'aretz Premium or do you know a trick to see these articles?
cali
(114,904 posts)
Israeli
(4,151 posts)... there is a free subscription where by you can read 10 articles a month for nuthin
I dont need it so cant be sure
give it a try anyhow oberliner
you never know you might learn something 
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Not sure what you think I'd learn by giving out my email and getting on a subscriber list other than how to delete a stream of email ads.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)... and dont read 972 ...or http://www.kibush.co.il/
bury your head in the sand
you can join shira and the other Ostriches
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I was just not understanding why the link wasn't working. I wasn't sure if it was because of not having a Premium subscription - and if there was a way to get to the articles without one.
I have no idea what you are talking about with the other nonsense. I keep extremely well informed on the conflict from a variety of sources.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)sure you do ... were you not the one that told me there is no such thing as post - zionists ?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Of course there are post-Zionists. You must have me confused with another poster.
I am not sure what you are laughing it - I've been nothing but polite and respectful towards you and all the other newbies who have recently graced this board.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)see : http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=34125
thanks for describing me as a " newbie " tho ... at my advanced age thats a real compliment
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That was a Ha'aretz article I linked to.
Ha'aretz - you know, that news source you told me I could learn from?
Shlomo Avineri, the Ha'aretz columnist (maybe you've heard of him?) posited the notion that Post-Zionism does not exist - I shared his thoughts on the subject.
Maybe you too can learn a little bit by reading more Ha'aretz articles? Remember, even some of the Premium ones can be free if you subscribe!
BTW, a "newbie" has nothing to do with a person's age. It means you only recently signed up to this discussion forum.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)I know who Shlomo Avineri is oberliner ... and I dont need you or him to teach me about my own politics
Here try these two articles with regard to Shlomo Avineri ,.. free no charge :
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1282429124/
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1308952216
delrem
(9,688 posts)So many articles in one place!
I tend to follow up on your links and suggested readings, when I can - and there's quite some backlog - because I like the Israel that you show.
I must confess that when reading Uri Avnery a skeptical spot in my right elbow starts twitching - because he is (it *seems* to me at this state in my reading) decided w.r.t. one/two state futures, promoting two-states, with perhaps some neverland bi-national state in the far distance but that's clearly just lip service.
Let me be clear: it isn't my place to judge re. what's the best future for the peoples of Israel and Palestine. But I've been hit several times in this forum for not responding affirmatively/negatively re. whether I "support" a one/two/whatever solution, and I've been *accused*, as if it were some fascist or whatever weirdness, of being a "one stater".
My skeptical spot twitches because it's not just Avnery promoting "two states", it's also, *rhetorically* Netanyahu, and a whole host of politicians who have no intention whatsoever of allowing another state, different from Israel, to occupy land between Jordan and the sea. In the case of Netanyahu and co. the phrase "two state solution" is part of a charade coupled with rhetoric about "peace talks" which, so long as the charade drags on, allows the continued annexation of the West Bank and consolidation of Israel over the whole land.
When I'm accused of being a "one stater" it's because (in my opinion) facts on the ground, which Israel has been 100% devoted to creating, and which Israel has been 100% responsible for creating, make a truly viable Palestinian state impossible. I believe that unless something truly miraculous happens Israel will soon take "Area C" officially and not just de facto. Netanyahu's rush to create facts on the ground is part of a sequence of Israeli leadership intent on the identical purpose. This is, of course, fulfilling the Zionist imperative. Netanyahu, the Zionist, cites "two states" as rhetorical meme waiting on a "peace treaty" with the occupied Palestinian people, because that rhetoric is aimed at "the UN", at the world at large, and because he's in control and can use the meme as a stalling tactic because he doesn't think the Zionist imperative will be "finished" or "completed" until all the land between the Jordan and the sea is finally secured, for all time. So Netanyahu's reference is duplicitous while at the same time being patriotic, the patriotism being to the Zionist cause.
My skeptical spot twitches because quite clearly any *real* two state solution must be brought about before the *faux* two state rhetoric of the Zionist leadership can fulfill its purpose, which is to stall the "peace process" for long enough that Netanyahu et al achieve their purpose. Netanyahu and the Zionist fellowship believe this can't be done.
Let's suppose that Netanyahu and those who bet on his movement are right, that Netahyahu's project will be completed. Obviously this doesn't mean that the Palestinians all go away, but I think it does mean that very likely the "refugee problem" will go away except, very painfully, a shitload of family reunification issues.
I would ask Uri Avnery, what *different* problems would such a "one state" have in coordinating the economic cultural exchanges of an enlightened liberal democracy, that an Israeli state determined more or less by the '67 borders wouldn't have? Wouldn't Israel, in requiring itself to be a light in the world of enlightened countries, have more or less the same problems regardless of the exact location of its geographic borders?
you put a lot of thought behind your post
my apologies that I just dont have the time to answer you as I should
Uri is old now and I'm not that far behind him ... but what he believes is what I believe
read this in way of an answer :
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/05/11/uri-avnery-on-the-two-state-solution/
The alternative is not a democratic, secular bi-national state, because such a state will not come into being. Neither people wants it.
As the professor rightly maintains, in the absence of peace, Israel will rule from the sea to the river. The present situation will go on and become worse: the sovereign State of Israel holding on to the occupied territories.
Except for a tiny group of dreamers, who can be gathered in a medium-sized room, there are no Israelis who dream of living in a bi-national state, in which the Arabs constitute the majority. If such a state came into being, Israeli Jews would just emigrate. But it is much more plausible that the reverse would happen: the Palestinians would emigrate long before that.
Ethnic cleansing does not have to take the form of a dramatic expulsion, as in 1948. It can take place quietly, in a creeping process, when more and more Palestinians simply give up. That is the great dream of the settlers and their partners: to make life for the Palestinians so miserable that they take their families and leave.
Either way, life in this country will turn into hell. Not for one year, but for dozens of years. Both sides will be violent. The idea of Palestinian “non-violent resistance” is a pipe-dream. The professor’s hope that in the putative bi-national state, the Palestinians would not treat the Jews as the Jews are treating them now has been disproved by the Jews themselves – the persecution they have suffered throughout the ages has not inoculated them against becoming persecutors themselves.
King_David
(14,851 posts)If not you would be calling her names and using other expletives and 4 letter words.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113441352
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=38956
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)To rock throwing, as they do throughout the occupied territories, with live ammunition fire to suppress the dangerous rock throwers.
cali
(114,904 posts)not. they responded gently and carefully.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
King_David
(14,851 posts)Go Lapid Go.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)the maximum is twenty years.
http://othersite.org/al-jazeera-when-the-boys-return-video-documentary/
Naturally, if there is no apartheid in Israel and the law applies equally to Arab and Jew, you would expect these ultra-orthdox Jews to receive similar jail sentences.
Alternatively...
Mosby
(16,311 posts)why do people keep doing this?
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)israel 'locked', regardless if it mentions Palestinians or not.
Many just consider it safer to throw all israel topics into the I/P dungeon and avoid the lock. Sometimes I do...sometimes I don't.
Better question would be...why is there an I/P dungeon to begin with but then, most all know the answer to THAT question.
Mosby
(16,311 posts)You could be part of the hosting process if you want.
shira
(30,109 posts)
El Supremo
(20,365 posts)They are taking over the electorate. They don't hold real jobs. But they have plenty of time to throw rocks at women.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Their behavior is shameful.
Except they actually aren't taking over the electorate. The secular parties did quite a good deal better than the religious ones.
El Supremo
(20,365 posts)I want so dearly to visit Jerusalem before I die. But there has been one thing after another to make it too risky. (I'm a Presbyterian)
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Not.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And they are religious as well.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Yeah, whatever. It's the insane rioting with the crazy, as far as I'm concerned.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Talk about a lack of respect for Judaism.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Do you think that perhaps the issue is more about recognizing another and perhaps more general (or basic) kind of respect, like, for women, and that the clash isn't about 'religion' per se?
To my mind these women holding a prayer service might be any women doing anything in a public arena where men are allowed and where women are not, and where the restriction is not one of reason so is perceived to be one of sexism.
To my mind prayers to god or to whatever spirit should be allowed to all, in a religious place, or to none. So by no means do I disrespect "religion" even though the edicts of a lot of populist religious leaders don't merit much if any respect.
I think quite a few atheists don't fully understand that the spiritual arts have as widely ranging a cuisine as there are people, just as the range of the arts in general is over the widest territory.
Sorry for interjecting
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I mean, what do we need all these mosques for?
delrem
(9,688 posts)and providing a cultural bond.
But (imo) probably not more effective.
But as always so often happens, you miss my point. Would the prayers of women objecting to segregation at a mosque by praying in areas where local custom said they were restricted, be more effective? But that wouldn't be the issue with the women's action, their action would be directed toward equality. What's interesting about women of the wall is that they've managed to get the law/situation changed so the police now protect them rather than arresting them.
eta: My intent was to allude to some of the background that mike_c left out in his use of this issue to criticize "religion".
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And, no, I don't actually get your point - that much I agree with.
Here's my point:
Religions have certain beliefs that are very important to the followers of said religion.
That should be self-evident.
If one wants to disparage those beliefs, then one is showing a lack of respect for that religion.
Many Jewish people believe there is special significance according to prayers at the Western Wall, just as many Muslim people believe there is special significance according to praying at Mecca.
Mecca is a holy city for many Muslims and Jerusalem is a holy city for many Jews.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I like fantasy, parables, metaphors, allegories, but I'm not too keen on those who claim to speak the literal Word of God. Especially when they seek to impose conditions on me and the rest of the world on that illustrious basis.
The world is no longer a collage of disjoint parts surrounded by "there be monsters here" signifying the unknown. People are not only free to study all the "isms" of the world, but they have the opportunity to do so, to compare them on their merits, and a huge number of people do so.
"Mecca is a holy city for many Muslims and Jerusalem is a holy city for many Jews." Uh huh, and Israel is the "holy land" for all religions having an Abrahamic root: Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Baha'i. So much so that when a news anchor yaps about "the holy land" everyone understands, including Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, ...., so everyone gets to roll their eyes at the idolotry, should they so want.
In any event I choose to see a fight against sexism as what it is, even when cloaked in religious paraphernalia, or maybe even especially so. There's a fight against sexism heating up in the RC church, finally, and you betcha that when someone tells me that I should "respect the Pope, the tradition, the...." and ignore the justice of the fight I will tell them to get lost, that the justice of the fight is a tad more broad in its reach than just the hierarchy of the RC church. And you betcha I can disparage the beliefs of RC tradition while respecting the individual RC church-goers, according as they merit.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Reasonable points.