Tens of thousands protest plan to draft ultra-Orthodox into Israeli army

[shaayecanaan]

Around 30,000 ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) demonstrators, many more than anticipated, showed up for a mass rally against the planned induction of Yeshiva students outside the Israeli army’s recruiting offices in Jerusalem Thursday night. The government plans to revoke a special exemption given to these ultra-Orthodox yeshiva students, part of plan to “equalize of the national burden” orchestrated by Yair Lapid and Naftali Bennet. Rabbis on stage declared the government’s plans as “decrees of destruction” and said they are part of a “religious war” being fought between the regime and “believers,” calling on all good men to join the struggle.

“There is no room for compromise,” said Rabbi Israeli Zikerman, “just like you cannot compromise by having one eye plucked out instead of two. No child of ours will go to the army. We would rather go to prison.” Another speaker said that the rally should have taken place inside an army base, as “soldiers know that we are the ones protecting them with our studies and prayer.” The rally was attended almost solely by men, while a few women stood in small groups on its outskirts.

On the sidelines of the rally, the question of the occupation also led to minor confrontations. The social activists (and I myself) were asked by many why they were supportive of the ultra-Orthodox cause. While some were happy to hear the anti-militarist (and anti-Zionist) discourse, others were enraged, yelling that they want no help from “treacherous leftists who love Arabs.” They explained, “we need an army to fight our enemies and you have to serve in it while we support the cause through study and prayer.” Within the rally itself, small fist fights broke out between pro-Palestinian extreme factions and pro-state mainstream factions. These ended fairly quickly but served as a good indication of the unsolved tensions between the newly allied ultra-Orthodox camps. Their joint struggle is likely to continue in the coming weeks, and all parties announced they would hold more protests.

http://972mag.com/tens-of-thousands-protest-plan-to-draft-ultra-orthodox-into-israeli-army/71636/

[Scootaloo]

1. I like this line...

"just like you cannot compromise by having one eye plucked out instead of two."

It seems applicable to another, nearby situation.

As for the rest? Well... As an American, I'm rather disgusted by religious institutions being tax-exempt. If I were subject to military draft, and some guy over there could put on a vest and go sniff books for three years to get out of that draft, I think I'd be pretty damn livid. So i think my sympathies would lie more towards the non-haredi position here, of everyone serving in national service; fair as fair, after all.

However, I'd certainly be even more in favor of the total abolition of drafting. I understand Israelis have a very high volunteer rate for their armed forces, right? Strikes me that abolishing an anti-democratic - and evidently discriminatory - system is only the intelligent thing to do.

[shaayecanaan]

5. To be honest, there is so much I love about this story...

I love this line:-

Another speaker said that the rally should have taken place inside an army base, as “soldiers know that we are the ones protecting them with our studies and prayer.”

This was interesting as well:-

Parallel to the central demonstration, a small group of thirty post-J14 activists affiliated with the more radical and anti-militarist faction of the social justice movement calling themselves ”Democracy or Rebellion,” demonstrated in support of the ultra-Orthodox. While some were happy to hear the anti-militarist (and anti-Zionist) discourse, others were enraged, yelling that they want no help from “treacherous leftists who love Arabs.”

[Israeli]

6. you are not alone Scootaloo...

ref: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1361400972

There is a simple solution to the problem of equal burden: put an end to the entire outdated idea of conscription. The best armies in the world have already dispensed with it, in favor of a professional volunteer army. Nowadays, a battle is no longer a clash of two great human masses, as were the battles of Waterloo and Borodino. A modern army is a professional body, making use of sophisticated equipment, which requires professionalism and long experience. The larger and inflated an army is, the less effective it is.

Over here, conscription was part of the collective heritage of Socialist Zionism. Those days are long gone. Sooner or later, Israel will also have to go over to an army based on volunteering and professionalism. And the sooner the better.

[pelsar]

7. but you forget....

the army at the same time provides a social service..its the only place where the very different cultures of israel actually meet, mix and work together for a common goal....

make it a volunteer army you'll be letting many people opt out and taking apart a real glue to the society.....our army connections last our whole lives....and its one of the only times we actually meet the "other israelis"

its the only time, the only place where you'll find religious, non religious, right, and left, poor and middle class being together, talking, socializing and actually getting to know each other.....take that away and you'll aid in the polarization of the society

[Scootaloo]

8. As apologetics for conscription go, that was pretty weak n/t

[Israeli]

9. not fair Scootaloo

pelsar is right ... he is talking from his heart and speaking the truth

I have not forgotten pelsar
but times change
nostalgia for the way things are or once were is no reason to refuse change
its inevitable

[Scootaloo]

16. "From the heart" or not, it's still a weak argument for conscription

"It helps people meet and mingle!" is simply not a very convincing argument to make for compulsory service.

[pelsar]

17. your use of wrong descriptive language....

It helps people meet and mingle!"

explains partially why you dont understand, and take a derogatory stance, the other part is probably ignorence (and probably lack of experience in that area, but thats just a guess)

[Scootaloo]

23. Yes, I take a derogatory stance towards conscription

You tell me that compulsory service in Israel is needed because, in your own words,

its the only place where the very different cultures of israel actually meet, mix and work together for a common goal

If you haven't guessed, I'm from the United States. Saying we have "different cultures" in this nation is quite an understatement, about the only things we tend to have in common is a vague trend towards speaking English, and eating really cheap, awful food.

Did our draft bring these various cultures together? Sure, especially after post-WWII integration. However, the draft ended forty years ago, in 1973. Did US society disintegrate due to this? Did our "glue" get washed away? Nope. Cultural integration and mingling and regeneration carried on apace, and seems to have next to nothing to do with the implementation of selective service.

If you're serious - if you really think that the draft is needed to hold Israel together, then friend, you have vastly less faith in Israeli society than I do. That tells me that you think Israelis would fall apart without literally being forced onto each others faces.

Even if that really is "from the heart," I can't choke it down as a good argument for compulsory military service.

[pelsar]

24. in fact it did weaken in the US

how many republican/right wingers/tea party friends do you have?...hell how many are you even willing to speak to? do you even know?

i wont even ask if any of them are your friends, you would probably be too embarrassed to even answer.

the US is very devisive...whether or not you like the draft or not, its does serve as a component in the integration of the Israeli society...a very diverse one.

and in fact because of what it does give i'm very much for national service, be it armed or not for the population....because that

being forced onto each others faces.

is what gets people out of their bubbles and forces them to learn just how stupid their prejudices are.

Even the most armchair liberal" may be forced to face up to their real prejudices and they might even learn to get over them....it does infact make for a better a more tolerant society.

[Scootaloo]

25. So prejudice is extinct in Israel?

is what gets people out of their bubbles and forces them to learn just how stupid their prejudices are.

It strikes me that there are likely better ways to accomplish what you're talking about besides forced military service.

[pelsar]

26. hardly....but not like what you have in the US....

i would say the diversity of the social circles are much larger here then they are in the states..but that is just a guess....

It strikes me that there are likely better ways to accomplish what you're talking about besides forced military service.

i would put national service next in line....but it being a mere 9-5 job kind of thing with limited responsabilities and few consequences for screwups, it would lack the intensity of "getting to know one another" that one finds in pressure situations. (amazing how that breaks the barriers of prejudice).

but after that?...you tell me..what would make you go over and be comfortable in a barbeque with "gun totin republicans"......

whereas i'm comfortable sitting/eating with religious settlers, druze and bediouin...even if we dont really understand each other so well

[Scootaloo]

28. It's not a very good guess

But of course, account for geography; traffic allowing, you can conceivably drive across the breadth of Israel in an hour or less, right? It's quite a bit easier to go visit someone at the far end of the country in Israel; Contrary to your assumptions, I have conservative friends and family... thing is they literally do live a full continent away from me (I'm in Washington. Most of them are in Alabama / Florida.)

i would put national service next in line....but it being a mere 9-5 job kind of thing with limited responsabilities and few consequences for screwups, it would lack the intensity of "getting to know one another" that one finds in pressure situations. (amazing how that breaks the barriers of prejudice).

See, where I'm hanging up is the "compulsory" part of this stuff. I would put the national service idea higher than military service, but it's like evaluating two almost-equally bad ideas.

but after that?...you tell me..what would make you go over and be comfortable in a barbeque with "gun totin republicans"......

They'd have to know how to barbeque. barbeque a brisket right and I don't care what whacky-ass shit you believe; I will sit there and nod and smile to Shira if she's handing me a good brisket sandwich at the time

[pelsar]

30. i get the idea of freedom vs compulsion...

but just as in healthcare, income tax, etc the govt does have responsibilities to make a better society and in case you didnt notice, all groups, be they kids at camp, or neighborhoods or countries, they all work better when its members get to know each other better.

this is psych 101...you know all those stupid games companies play so that their employees will get to know each other.....you may not like the army or national service being forced upon the population...

but the results of both services have the very same principle involved.....and do work in that aspect


its one those those: "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" kind of thing......not to mention teaching kids a whole lot about personal responsibility, (something that kids in the states are lacking)
____________________________

any alternatives or is simply not that important, i.e the cost of losing one's freedom to choose is too high for the betterment of the society's citizens?

[Israeli]

32. good for you Scootaloo.....

They'd have to know how to barbeque. barbeque a brisket right and I don't care what whacky-ass shit you believe; I will sit there and nod and smile to Shira if she's handing me a good brisket sandwich at the time

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

I avoid them whenever possible and I have a few in my family to but they dont eat with us ...ever ... we aint kosher .

[shaayecanaan]

13. Having an all-volunteer army hasnt stopped America from going to war...

in fact war is much more popular than it was back in the Vietnam days. People can bang the drums without fear that their weak-chinned offspring wont be called upon to fight.

[MADem]

27. War is also much more automated.

Compare the casualty rates from Vietnam to Iraq/Afghanistan. We don't pay as high a price in blood now as we have in past conflicts.

It's not just better body armor, better battlefield triage, and urban combat that accounts for the difference. It's a more stand-off, more automated process. It's also a process that requires intelligence and fitness. Three quarters of the "conscription-age" population is NOT QUALIFIED to serve in the US military because they are too fat, too soft, psychologically unfit, or not smart enough.

It costs less to hire expensive (non soldier) contractors for a period of wartime, and then dump them when their utility is exhausted, than to recruit, train, outfit, and transport unwilling conscripts. Service personnel are recruited to put ordnance on target, by and large, and if they aren't doing that or serving in direct support of that goal, their jobs can often be done by civilians.

It's a very different paradigm. Service personnel aren't 'weak chinned concripts,' they are professionals who choose that difficult line of work. Some have buyer's remorse, but many don't. You don't hear from the latter group, much--it's not a popular stance to suggest that a military career was a good move for some.

[shaayecanaan]

29. Yes, and the Israeli Army is basically becoming like the Arab armies...

The Arab armies can't fight worth a damn for the most part, not because they're inherently unable to, but mostly because their stand-in job is acting as a secret police force attempting to keep their own populations under the thumb.

The Israeli Army's job is pretty similar these days, except that their stand-in job is keeping Palestinians under the thumb. It turns out that sitting at checkpoints for a couple of years is not very good preparation for going head to head with Hezbollah.

In 1948, Egypt only sent 10% of their Army to fight the Jewish militias, mainly because they were so concerned with the state of unrest back home. You can't help but wonder whether the Israeli army is similarly hobbled.

Probably one good aspect of conscription was that it provided a plurality of views within the US Army, whereas today the political viewpoint within the military is a bit more homogenous.

[MADem]

31. Well, many of the Arab militaries hire proxies, so they don't have to do the dirty work themselves.

The ones with oil can hire a better quality of military than those on a shoestring...

Unfortunately, in the US model, while conscription was effective in bringing together a variety of people, many (see, for example McCain, John) didn't take the lessons to heart, despite the opportunity for learning that Vietnam was. And McCain got a Ph.D. in the topic at the Hanoi Hilton University, so one would think he would have been a poster boy for the "broader viewpoint," but all the experience did was turn him into a bitter, never-saw-a-war-he-didn't-like hawk.

And "W" Bush, he served in an elite unit and wouldn't know a conscript if it bit him in the ass. Conscripts--the ones who did the dirty work and served as cannon fodder--were segregated to the front lines, while the lads with influence, money and connections stayed safely in the rear with the gear. And those rich and lucky guys, they were the ones who usually were going places; they were the future elites of government and industry.

With an all-volunteer force, as we have in USA now, merit is "the decider," far more than "Who's yer daddy." If you are good at your job, you move up. If you move up, you have access to the senior leadership. If you have access to senior leaders, you find yourself in the company of influential people in government and industry on a national level--and often, even a poor kid with brains can make his--or her--own luck.

The Israeli military doesn't really have an "over there" too--their "over there" is their own neighborhood, their own cities. They live in a war zone, basically. Consequently, their military culture may be different, with everyone, from rich to poor, scrubbing the floor of the latrines with toothbrushes, sharing the same danger, with an "equality of sacrifice" but that was never true in the US.

Even in the days of the draft, there was segregation. If you were very smart, or had a rich daddy, you were segregated to the officer ranks. If you were very smart and had skills in needed areas, you were segregated to the JAG Corps, to Supply/Logistics, to the Navy to drive ships, which was safer than the Army infantry or the USMC, 99 times out of a hundred. If you were talented mechanically, you were bending wrenches instead of slogging through the mud. If you were "over there" you were less safe, certainly, but if you "knew someone," you could manage to hang on in a nice desk job somewhere in the continental US, or on a base in Europe or Japan or Korea, somewhere far safer than being in a theater of war--and of course, there were some spots, even in a war zone, that were safer than others--if you knew the right folks, you could avoid the worst of it.

I don't have a deep understanding of the Israeli military culture, but I suspect it's not the same as the US one--even in the Vietnam days. In Vietnam, there was an element of luck--you might get called, you might not, depending on your number. You could avoid the draft by faking an illness or condition with a cooperative doctor, going to school, by pulling a Cheney with multiple deferments for school, teaching, marriage, kids, etc. or just being lucky and getting a "good" number. I get the impression that the Israeli military has fewer opportunities to avoid duty, but maybe I'm mistaken in that POV.

[azurnoir]

10. Thank you pelsar so the military is the "glue" that holds Israeli society together

that's quite a statement

[pelsar]

11. always glad to help educate the open minded

it goes to ignorance about the israeli society and ignorance of the social aspect of the IDF...something you've shown that you know little of.

The IDF is very aware of its social role, beyond being an army, which is why it has multitude of social programs that use the army to help citizens who in fact are not army material, but are accepted and the army helps them integrate in to society.

More so its the only place where a Tel Aviv jew, will end up working with bedouin or druze and live with them....as well as with the the ex heroin addict who as part of his rehab does reserve duty....

all of a sudden "those others" are not so foreign, no longer strange.....and those friendships can last a life time
______

and yes it helps create a society that is less polarized, in politics as well as in every day life..unlike the US

[azurnoir]

12. interesting comment however I must ask are Israeli Bedouin conscripted

I believe Druze are or at least wished to be, if you remember we had a conversation about that some time back

[shaayecanaan]

14. Dont think so...

Optional for Bedouin, more or less compulsory for Druze, although the Golani Druze are exempt as they have generally turned down Israeli citizenship.

Frankly, I can't see them conscripting Palestinian Arabs, I don't think that they want them.

My prediction is that the haredim will win this little battle, unless they want to risk a civil war.

[pelsar]

15. Bedouin are not.....

Last edited Sun May 19, 2013, 12:19 AM - Edit history (2)

like the Druze and Muslims and Christians they are all volunteers (though the glass ceiling has moved up, it still exists for them)..

[delrem]

18. The fact that they aren't drafted is a "glass ceiling"?

Nothing "glass" about it.
They aren't drafted into the camaraderie that you speak about in another sub-thread, whereas people of other "races" are (except I think you'd explain that it has nothing to do with "race", but that they don't belong to the proper *nation*, the one that Israel belongs to.)

I hear that the Bedouin, made increasingly desperate after the continuing confiscation of their land, the continuing forced transfer to partitions of land where construction is allowed, have long been made desperate and are likely to volunteer. I doubt that many of those, however, would put their hand over their heart while gushing about the camaraderie and integration this granted, with the unified Israeli population.

[pelsar]

19. really?

I think you'd explain that it has nothing to do with "race", but that they don't belong to the proper *nation

try again

[delrem]

20. no, I won't "try again".

[pelsar]

21. ..ignorance is bliss

a bit of research in to the actual draft numbers, as well as the reasons might be enlightening..but then again, thats not really what your interested in.

[delrem]

22. Your response is beyond dull, pelsar.

It's like you don't want to deal with the issue.

[azurnoir]

33. the fact that Druze units are segregated from 'other' IDF units may explain your not realizing they

are indeed conscripted

Druze and Circassians
Druze commander of the IDF Herev battalion

Israel, being a Jewish state, has a majority of Jewish soldiers. Druze and Circassian men are subject to mandatory conscription to the IDF just like Israeli Jews.[28] Originally, they served in the framework of a special unit called "The Minorities' Unit", which still exists today, in the form of the independent Herev ("Sword&quot battalion. However, since the 1980s Druze soldiers have increasingly protested this practice, which they considered a means of segregating them and denying them access to elite units (like sayeret units). The army has increasingly admitted Druze soldiers to regular combat units and promoted them to higher ranks from which they had been previously excluded. In recent years, several Druze officers have reached ranks as high as Major General and many have received commendations for distinguished service. In proportion to their numbers, the Druze people achieve much higher—documented—levels in the Israeli army than other soldiers. Nevertheless, some Druze still charge that discrimination continues, such as exclusion from the Air Force, although the official low security classification for Druze has been abolished for some time. The first Druze aircraft navigator completed his training course in 2005; his identity is protected as are those of all air force pilots. During the Israeli War of Independence, many Druze who had initially sided with the Arabs deserted their ranks to either return to their villages or side with Israel in various capacities.[29]

Since the late 1970s the Druze Initiative Committee, centered at the village of Beit Jan and linked to the Israeli Communist Party, has campaigned to abolish Druze conscription.

Military service is a tradition among some of the Druze population, with most opposition in Druze communities of the Golan Heights; 83 percent of Druze boys serve in the army, according to the IDF's statistics.[30] According to the Israeli army, 369 Druze soldiers have been killed in combat operations since 1948.[31]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces

you are also quite mistaken as to my not understanding the importance of IDF in structuring 'Israeli society', I understand quite fully exactly what that implies and what the results of such social structure and interconnections are

[pelsar]

34. they conscripted like the haridim are.....

officially yes..but if they want out, the procedure is already set up for them..unlike the jews that want out, who have to play a few games to get out

in general the IDF doesnt want you there, if you dont want to be there...

__

and i apologize for my assumptions with you and your understanding of the IDF and its place within the society.

[sigmasix]

2. is it true?

Is it true that the ultraorthodox Israelis don't work, but are supported by Israeli government pay-outs so that the fundamentalists can pray and study without the nuisance of work?
I don't know if this is true, but if it is, why aren't more Americans protesting US taxes going to Israeli fundamentalists in the form of monetary aid? Money is fungible and if Israel can afford to pay for lazy fundamentalists' living expenses, the country certainly shouldn't be receiving American humanitarian aid money.

[azurnoir]

3. In all fairness Israel recieves relatively little in what could be called humanitarian aid

here's a snip from the US's 2014 budget concerning Israel

For FY2014, the Administration is requesting $3.1 billion in FMF to Israel and $15 million in
Migration and Refugee Assistance. The Missile Defense Agency’s FY2014 request for Israeli
Cooperative Programs is $95.782 million, including $52.607 million for Arrow III, $32.512
million for David’s Sling, and $10.663 million for Arrow II. The Department of Defense also is
requesting $220 million in FY2014 Procurement, Defense-wide funds for Iron Dome.
Recent legislation on U.S. foreign assistance to Israel proposed in the 113
th
Congress includes:
•
H.R. 938 (S. 462), the United States-Israel Strategic Partnership Act of 2013—a
bill that would, among other things, exempt
Israel from regulations that require it
to obtain U.S. permission to sell some American-controlled technology to third
countries. The bill also would extend the authorization of U.S.-Israeli energy
cooperation, among other things.
•
H.R. 1130, the Iron Dome Support Act— a bill that would authorize the procurement of the Iron Dome anti-rocket defense system

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

[shaayecanaan]

4. Full time yeshiva students are able to receive a benefit in lieu of working

there are plenty of Haredi who work. But there are quite a few that devote themselves to religious studies as well, and receive welfare payments for doing so.