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Alice Walker calls on Alicia Keys to boycott ‘apartheid’ Israel
NEW YORK (JTA) — Novelist Alice Walker, who is slated to speak at Manhattan’s 92nd Street Y, called on singer Alicia Keys to boycott Israel and cancel a scheduled concert there.
In an open letter posted on her website, Walker wrote, “It would grieve me to know you are putting yourself in danger (soul danger) by performing in an apartheid country that is being boycotted by many global conscious artists.”
Keys is scheduled to perform in Tel Aviv on July 4.
Walker, who is slated to speak Thursday at the Y, has called Israel the world’s “biggest terrorist,” described suicide bombings as “last-ditch resistance” in saying it was dishonest to engage in “blaming the oppressed for using their bodies where the Israeli army uses armored tanks,” and refused to allow “The Color Purple,” her Pulitzer Prize-winning novel about black life in the segregated South, to be translated into Hebrew. She also participated in a flotilla of ships attempting to break Israel’s naval blockade of Gaza.
http://www.jta.org/2013/05/30/arts-entertainment/alice-walker-calls-on-alicia-keys-to-boycott-apartheid-israel
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oberliner
(58,724 posts)Last edited Thu May 30, 2013, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)
Dear Alicia Keys
I read today Alice Walker's eloquent and moving entreaty to you in her open letter.
It is hard to add anything except to implore you to follow all the links she has directed you to.
To introduce myself to you, I am a fellow musician, my name is Roger Waters, I used to be in a band called Pink Floyd, and, believe it or not, I still work.
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/05/walker-alicia-israel.html
Edit to add: Prediction, she backs out and cancels her show.
shira
(30,109 posts)They wanted gold and they wanted slaves to mine it for them. Now gosh, who does this remind us of? I only am asking. You do the work. Apparently their own planet needed this metal to continue its, apparently, long life. Credo Mutwa, Zulu shaman – and I am on my knees here in gratitude that he held on long enough to tell us about this – calls them the Chitauri, which has become my favorite word of all time (well, of this time that I’m learning all this): my partner and I go around saying Oh, Chitauri, whenever we get a glimpse of one or two of the Chitauri offspring, aka Illuminati bloodline families and their puppets, on the telly. It’s quite the stress reliever, just knowing what we’re looking at. And I like saying “telly” too, because it sounds so English and David Icke-esque. Truthfully our “telly” is our laptops.
It’s an amazing book, HUMAN RACE GET OFF YOUR KNEES, and reading it was the ultimate reading adventure. I felt it was the first time I was able to observe, and mostly imagine and comprehend, the root of the incredible evil that has engulfed our planet. A lot of it is how shall we say: shocking, beyond belief (but not really, if you don’t get too scared), stunning, profound. The deconstruction of language is breathtaking, the interrogation of symbols startling. Magical, in a way. I kept going: Oh, so that’s why…. You will too.
The Reptilian space beings whose hybrid (part human, part reptile) descendants make our lives hell in Paradise were blue eyed devils to Malcolm X, the devil himself to my Christian parents, who never talked about eye color, which I think was not only prudent but wise, although they seemed clear enough about his sex, and as demons in many other religions, including the non-religion, Buddhism, where the advice is often to invite them in until they go away. But maybe these were other kinds of demons. Not the ones controlling not just you, but everything.
I mean really, WTF happened to her?
delrem
(9,688 posts)She isn't a "blogger" trying to spin a political situation.
wow, shira, thanks so much for the link.
Dick Dastardly
(937 posts)Is not a blog something you write?
Does she not have her own blog she writes in?
Where does it say being one type of writer precludes you from writing other types of writing like a blog or preclude you from also being political?
Where does she state what you say about her or is that something you made up?
The fact is in her blog she states quite the opposite of what you say about her. Much of her articles are very political.
Alice Walker is an internationally celebrated author, poet and activist whose books include seven novels, four collections of short stories, four children’s books, and volumes of essays and poetry.
Clip
Walker has been an activist all of her adult life, and believes that learning to extend the range of our compassion is activity and work available to all. She is a staunch defender not only of human rights, but of the rights of all living beings. She is one of the world’s most prolific writers, yet tirelessly continues to travel the world to literally stand on the side of the poor, and the economically, spiritually and politically oppressed. She also stands, however, on the side of the revolutionaries, teachers and leaders who seek change and transformation of the world.
http://alicewalkersgarden.com/about-2/
delrem
(9,688 posts)"Alice Walker is an internationally celebrated author, poet and activist whose books include seven novels, four collections of short stories, four children’s books, and volumes of essays and poetry."
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Icke was a BBC television sports presenter and spokesman for the Green Party, when in 1990 a psychic told him that he was a healer who had been placed on Earth for a purpose, and that the spirit world was going to pass messages to him. In March 1991 he held a press conference to announce that he was a "Son of the Godhead" – a phrase he said later the media had misunderstood – and the following month told the BBC's Terry Wogan show that the world would soon be devastated by tidal waves and earthquakes. He said the show changed his life, turning him from a respected household name into someone who was laughed at whenever he appeared in public.[2]
He continued nevertheless to develop his ideas, and in four books published over seven years – The Robots' Rebellion (1994), And the Truth Shall Set You Free (1995), The Biggest Secret (1999), and Children of the Matrix (2001) – set out a moral and political worldview that combined New-Age spiritualism with a passionate denunciation of totalitarian trends in the modern world. At the heart of his theories lies the idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke
delrem
(9,688 posts)Rather than a "nut" to be taken literally.
Not that I'd know....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)here's his web site
http://www.davidicke.com/articles/reptilian-agenda-mainmenu-43
delrem
(9,688 posts)I tried watching some youtube "ad-lib OWS commentary by DI" but he drones on while saying nothing.
I won't be following up on Alice W's recommendation
Dick Dastardly
(937 posts)are a reptilian humanoid elite and are trying to discredit him. 
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but however did you find me out ? does laser prism thingy or whatever it is work on typing too, if so I must inform our leaders 
pelsar
(12,283 posts)wow.....thats some description
i shall try to remain anonymous here...hate to hear my own description
delrem
(9,688 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)i've never heard the phrase before
delrem
(9,688 posts)But I can't help you with it. You're an adult, right?
Anyhow I can't even speculate as to the cause of your problem.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)the "worshiping of the young" mentality is really nothing more than marketing hype, and when people believe it and it extends itself to the young's intellectual abilities, its really embarrassing......
so many of your posts have the reaction of an adolescent (my all time favorite was when you to told me to "shut up- on an internet forum no less!!!)......I can speculate in that perhaps you really are an adolescent, or perhaps your one of those adults that have yet to grow up (college student?) or simply a ideological fanatic/religious person that simple cannot comprehend, nor tolerate people who "aren't like u" and hence your posts then make sense.
of course the last is my favorite, of those who claim to be such wonderful things as "humanist" progressive, liberal, patience, open minded...when infact one discovers during a discussion with them, that they infact are as open minded as any KKK/jihad member.....
perhaps you might enlighten us as to which year in college your in (i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming your not in high school)
delrem
(9,688 posts)Now you just unload your ad hominem tropes. It figures.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)as per your remark
Anyhow I can't even speculate as to the cause of your problem.
a more enlightened individual would have take the same time to point me to link or given my previous writings might have assumed/ask if i was kidding, at any rate, "humanists" apparently seem to believe that if you claim not to know something that means you 'have a problem."
_________________
i dont do 'ad hominem" since i believe its the cowards way out of a discussion. If you think I'm off topic, "man up, bite deeper"and ask again, perhaps a bit more specific....but if you make a remark, i see nothing wrong with replying to that specific remark. You always have the option of telling me to "shut-up"
delrem
(9,688 posts)I'm wondering why you've never heard of the term 'artistic license' before.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i actually do work in the "arts" and its a pretty common reply when i modify something to the point where its unrecognizable....
______
the phrase is common and perhaps you misunderstood my reply, but that doesn't excuse your reply in-kind:
Anyhow I can't even speculate as to the cause of your problem.
i would say thats a rather insulting remark about my psychological/educational status, but feel free to speculate if you have the urge..and then I can indulge and speculate on how you have this incredible ability
in principle you can insult me as much as you want, thats the beauty of the internet, and its freedom of speech, however, in my opinion, it does tend to make you childlike with your responses and i will reply to such remarks.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I'd say that you're uncommonly flustered for someone who's never heard the phrase 'artistic license' before.
At first you came out like a bull out of a pit, like usual.
Now, I don't know what you're trying to get at.
shira
(30,109 posts)The Mondoweiss BDS crowd should be so proud...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so where did you get this from? I know this because I attempted to cut and paste the part where she explains more fully, but I do see all kinds of Rightwing sites when I Google your posted passages, that have seemed to latch on to Alice Walkers words in much the same manner as you have here all of course leving out the part where she explains so if calling her a bigot gives you some sort of satisfaction be my guest we'll just put her right below Desmond Tutu on your list 
delrem
(9,688 posts)is well past mach 2 phase by now, and shira'd be right in there, that being her meat 'n potatoes.
But that's all you'll get, several thousand right-wing Hasbarist in a giant circle-j
excuse my language.
shira
(30,109 posts)...would suffice in order to prove to you 110% that almost every anti-zionist like Walker is a Jew-hating bigot, but that's what the following thread is for:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113417963
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I guess your other long running one from DU2 could not be transferred
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x327519
shira
(30,109 posts)...condemn all the gutter antisemitism that infests the anti-zionist movement, rather than run interference for it.
I won't hold my breath waiting.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the answer should be interesting
shira
(30,109 posts)....anything problematic there, right?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...of how infested the anti-zionist movement is with Jew haters. You say you disagree. What the hell does that mean? What's there to disagree with?
Do you disagree in that you DON'T believe there are multiple examples throughout that thread showing how hateful leading anti-zionist organizations and their leaders are?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and exactly which leaders are you speaking of here name names please
shira
(30,109 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts) shira
(30,109 posts)He still defends Helen Thomas, who you concede is antisemitic.
Why are you playing games?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Israel's settlement project and placing full blame on Palestinians for the continuing occupation would do that for some here, others do not think he needs any as you put "get out of jail free card" as he has done nothing to be 'in jail' for
your entire comment show a predisposition towards Abunumah as guilty of something
shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)..or leader of such an organization, activist, etc. who couldn't possibly be labeled an antisemite.
Just one.
shira
(30,109 posts)Israeli is anonymous and not, AFAIK, a leader of her movement.
Try again.
delrem
(9,688 posts)She's leading enough to've sent me to many good sites, articles. And who are *you* to define who is or isn't an "anti-zionist", since you call every "anti-zionist" an "anti-semite", "bigot", "genocide supporter",.... and on and on. *You* have zero credibility.
You've had this discussion with Israeli many times, showing that it'*s absolutely pointless trying to discuss this topic (or any other) with you. You simply ignore or deny, or deny or ignore, ad nauseum - and you never, ever, engage, or display the least understanding of her posts that you respond to with your trite memes.
You call everyone who disagrees with you a "bigot", just to start the spittle flying. You obviously have a very particular, and personal, view of what the word means.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Fri May 31, 2013, 10:26 PM - Edit history (1)
...that you cannot name one anti-zionist organization or leader that isn't bigoted speaks volumes.
I gave you a simple challenge, to name just one, and you can't do it.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Nobody with any reasoning/comprehension skills would ever try to quench your hate.
I like Israeli precisely because she lives in the thick of I/P reality, calls it as she sees it and lives her life to match, and can speak over you to explain things.
I'm here because it helps me understand. I've learned from you, too, shira -- you've explained your second-hand fears, your first hand prejudices and intractable opinions, well enough so I think I do understand better why you say the things you do. Your methodology, not so much.
I'm *not* here to satisfy *you*, your demands. This isn't a true/false or 'fill in the blank' test. It's a thread about Alice Walker, ffs. Your pet issue of anti-zionist=anti-semite has been discussed many times over the past few months, since I've started contributing to the group. You even point out your original OPs on the topic, that you've nurtured for months. You've discussed the identical topic with me, many times. There's no question in my mind that people who've been here for years before me have seen it *all*, *all* you can do, in terms of that kind of low level name calling character assassinating vilification of your "enemies", of anyone who thinks differently than you. What you ought to understand is that that kind of low level vilification doesn't merit a response, on its own terms, because then it'd drag everyone down with it.
So try to gratify you? Not on your life! You're just begging for more red meat.
shira
(30,109 posts)So let's be real.
We both know why you're incapable of naming any leading anti-zionist organizations or leaders that aren't antisemitic. So why support a bigoted movement?
Think about it - it wouldn't be bigoted if the movement was really serious about supporting a secular democratic state that genuinely supported the human rights of both Palestinians and Jews. If the movement actually condemned Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the other fanatical Palestinian factions rather than support their genocidal ambitions, you'd have something honorable there. As it is, the movement couldn't give a rip about the Jews or Arabs involved. That's why they're silent WRT Arab-on-Arab violence, rocket attacks, etc. It's primarily a hate movement vs. the Jews. Hate is the tie that bonds every anti-zionist (rightists, leftists, religious nuts, atheists, communists, fascists).
Still pretending not to buy it?
Consider RoR. That's justice as you see it. But what would it result in? I get nothing but crickets to that question, from RoR advocates posing as human rights activists. Everyone knows what RoR will result in (war, far more bloodshed, exactly what the most fanatic extremists want (Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Taliban, KKK, neo-Nazis, etc...). That's anti-zionism in a nutshell.
Why not just admit it and work on advocating for genuine peace?
shira
http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mk_eng.asp?mk_individual_id_t=780
lots of respect I have for him.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Not sure if that is the same as anti-Zionist.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)He's for two states for two peoples. Sounds as if he's in favor of a Jewish state. Isn't that the core of what Zionism is about?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)A Jewish Non-Zionist in the Knesset
A Conversation with Hadash MK Dov Khenin
Excerpt:
Do you consider yourself a Zionist?
No.
http://newvoices.org/2009/02/12/0036-4/
aranthus
(3,385 posts)So what? I'm concerned with actual beliefs, not labels. Two states for two peoples assumes that there is a Jewish people that would have one of those states. That's the core Zionist belief.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Here is that party's position:
Hadash’s core beliefs, in addition to Communism, are an end to the occupation of the territories Israel captured in 1967, the establishment of a Palestinian state in those territories and the transformation of Israel into “a state of all its citizens” rather than a Jewish state.
That is not the core Zionist belief. In fact, it is the opposite.
and nothing antisemite either
he is just not a Zionist
like me and so many other Israelis
shira seems to think that all Israelis are Zionists including our non-Jewish population
I was replying to this aranthus :
..or leader of such an organization, activist, etc. who couldn't possibly be labeled an antisemite.
Just one.
shira
(30,109 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Hadash’s core beliefs, in addition to Communism, are an end to the occupation of the territories Israel captured in 1967, the establishment of a Palestinian state in those territories and the transformation of Israel into “a state of all its citizens” rather than a Jewish state.
http://www.israelhebrew.com/hadash-2013-israel-elections-parties/
shira
(30,109 posts)...for the anti-Zionist crowd.
Here's Mondoweiss on Khenin...
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/03/response-to-mk-dov-khenin.html
Israeli
(4,141 posts)he is a communist , I and most of my friends and family are socialists
what we all have in common is that we are not Zionists .
delrem
(9,688 posts)I didn't drop it to suggest that you hold some exact "position" w.r.t. I/P, or god forbid that you do or don't support some predetermined "solution" as defined by short-sighted folk. You and I know it isn't like that. It isn't about lining up armies for war.
I felt guilty the moment I hit "send", but not guilty enough to delete it.
As you see, shira now concedes that you're a "post-Zionist" and that a "post-Zionist" might be different than being an "anti-Zionist", which in her mind is identical to being an "anti-Semite", after which the floodgates are let loose. I would say that's progress in a field where progress seemed impossible -- tho' to be sure the "progress" was only in the service of scoring points in some weird war.
For certain I didn't drop your name with any intent to suggest that you and I share the same opinions about anything at all, esp. anything that might pass over shira's mind regarding I/P! That would be ridiculous! You and I not only have totally different experiences of the world, but those experiences are half a world apart.
OK, I admit it: I dropped your name because I was lazy, and because shira's challenge was stupid.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)57. He is a Hadash MK
Here is that party's position:
Hadash’s core beliefs, in addition to Communism, are an end to the occupation of the territories Israel captured in 1967, the establishment of a Palestinian state in those territories and the transformation of Israel into “a state of all its citizens” rather than a Jewish state.
That is not the core Zionist belief. In fact, it is the opposite.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=42444
not often you see it stated quite that bluntly
delrem
(9,688 posts)The above post, I hope you've saved. Because it's important.
It's doubly important because in other subthreads of this OP apartheid is being mentioned. That's where the contradiction goes right into the red-zone.
Also, I think oberliner is something of an "intellectual", meaning someone who respects reason and who I read more carefully.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)they are quite uniquely stated
Israeli
(4,141 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)It's clear your version of a final settlement differs greatly from theirs (1-state vs. 2). What do you make of these leftwing "allies" of yours?
shira
(30,109 posts)When you can't even come to agree on a final I/P settlement with Israel's most leftwing activists, what do you make of that?
delrem
(9,688 posts)I've never negotiated for Palestine. Never will be in that position. Never met Dov Khenin.
I've never "tried to come to agreement" with Israeli. Why would I? Nor does anything depend on our ever "coming to an agreement" that might satisfy *you*.
Your warmongering hobbyhorse goes in only one direction, with full blinders on, and you're far too set to kill, for you to even be aware of how Israeli's contribution to the group has adjusted my understanding, and my sense of optimism. Nor will you ever understand that kind of thing.
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)What part do you wish to see and I'll gladly do it.
And she is a Jew-hating, pro-Hamas bigot. Antisemites do not get to label themselves as liberals, progressives, etc. when they are first and foremost bigots.
It would be nice to see you condemn her for it.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you know the part you did not include I sure it was an accident
just in case your busy or something
*For instance: more study will be required to feel I truly understand “holographic universe,” and the importance of photon activity in the speeding up of our consciousness. Interdimensionality, shapeshifting, and the “frequency range of visible light” are huge areas for thought; there is as well a need to ponder the relevance of changes in the sun’s behavior to Earth’s quite calamitous climate changes.
I did not care for, or believe, the “death bed” confession of a Satanist tacked on at the end of the book. But Neil Hague’s paintings are extraordinary.
shira
(30,109 posts)I did not care for, or believe, the “death bed” confession of a Satanist tacked on at the end of the book. But Neil Hague’s paintings are extraordinary.
How does that show she's not a stark raving lunatic?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and tell us is Walker above or below Desmond Tutu your list of 'bigots' ?
shira
(30,109 posts)Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a man who will say anything critical about Israel, it seems, has been for years providing sound bytes to the anti-Israel set and giving their slander an aura of respectability and legitimacy. It boggles the mind how someone who has dedicated his life to doing God's work could spend so much time spouting outright lies. Tutu has accordingly been accused of anti-Semitism by the indefatigable Alan Dershowitz. But Dershowitz' arguments have little emotional weight when matched to the words of a South African man of the cloth.
Enter man of God, elected member of South African Parliament and victim of actual apartheid, Rev. Ken Meshoe.
Mr. Meshoe was on a trip to San Francisco recently and had the misfortune of seeing an ad by propaganda-outfit "American Muslims for Palestine" (AMP) accusing Israel (the only free state in the Middle East by a mile, according to Freedom House) of apartheid.
(On that note, isn't it wonderful that the Muslim world is such a beacon of justice and tolerance that the AMP has the funds and time to dedicate to attacking Israel on its rights record?)
Mr. Meshoe felt offended enough--as someone having suffered real apartheid--to respond to the libelous accusation against Israel. Meshoe wrote an op-ed for the San Francisco Examiner. And the good reverend pulled no punches:
I urge all people, young people in particular, to visit Israel and learn the facts for themselves so that they can confidently refute these false allegations against Israel. The misapplication of the term apartheid makes a mockery of a grievous injustice and threatens to undermine the true meaning of the term.
This is an important point and one made by other victims of injustice and colonialism. The abuse of language and exploitation of compassion that have become pro-Palestinian propaganda's M.O. not only unfairly besmirch Israel, they insult the memory of victims of actual crimes against humanity.
The apartheid accusation leveled at Israel is plain hogwash. Perhaps for this reason the AMP and its acolytes use drawings and designs -- rather than hard facts -- to make their case. They can't convince, so they coerce.
In any case, this opens up quite a battle among prominent South African clergymen. Tutu has a strong brand and a thirst for popularity buttressing him. But Meshoe has the facts. And, especially with people of God, shouldn't that, ultimately, matter most?
I think it does. And I look forward to more righteous indignation by Meshoe.
Please share to support the Reverend.
http://philassie.blogspot.com/2013/06/tutu-vs-meshoe-rev-tells-anti-israel.html
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)The leader of the party is Rev. Dr. Kenneth Rasalabe Joseph Meshoe (MP).[1] As of 2009, the ACDP has three members in the South African Parliament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Christian_Democratic_Party
well any port in a storm I guess thanks shira
oberliner
(58,724 posts)They are generally pretty conservative on those same social issues.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it should be noted that anti-Gay and anti-Women's rights conservative Christian groups here in the US are among Israel's most strident supporters too
but I was wondering how long it would be before a comment such as yours would be posted
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Those were the items you put in bold in your post about this person.
It seemed like you were trying to discredit this person based on his views on those social issues.
What do you think is the majority position among Palestinians on these issues?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)hence my final line "any port in a storm"
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What did you bring up this person's position on those social issues?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)to the Palestinians based on Israel's 'superior womens and Gay right's, in fact I have seen both implied and said outright that those 2 factors somehow cancel out the occupation and in fact could indeed justify it
so to see this man prompted by one who tells us of Israel's superiority on this basis was um interesting if not outright humorous
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you disagree with that?
I have never seen anyone suggest that this "cancels out" or justifies the occupation. Anyone who claims otherwise, I would wholeheartedly disagree with.
This man is conservative socially in a way that is relatively similar to the prevailing attitude among most Palestinians (and many Israelis).
It is pretty ironic that some of the most vociferous ostensible supporters of Palestinian causes (Alice Walker, for instance) stand on the opposite end of the spectrum with respect to the conservative social values prevalent in that society.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and if not then what was your point, save casting aspersions ?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And since you and I have been exchanging comments on this subject for years now, I know you know better than to suggest that. I have repeatedly and consistently expressed my support for a Palestinian state over and over again since as long as we have both been discussing this issue on this board.
My point, I thought, was clear. That is, socially, Palestinians are more conservative than liberal on issues such as the ones you cited (abortion, homosexuality, pornography). Again, you were the one who brought up this person's position on those topics.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)perhaps you were implying that the Palestinian 'cause' does not deserve support? However it is indeed interesting that much Israel's support comes from groups that tend to be more Rightist in nature
oberliner
(58,724 posts)In fact, I would encourage you to get involved or give a donation yourself if you are so inclined.
http://www.geneva-accord.org/component/option,com_dtdonate/Itemid,286/index.php?option=com_dtdonate&task=pre_paypal&Itemid=286
I am glad you agree that the Palestinian society leans "rightist" on social issues - strange how progressives, liberals, and "leftists" sometimes want to ignore that fact.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I would say that I have done as much or more to advance the cause of Palestinian statehood and peace between Israelis and Palestinians as just about anyone on this board.
Dick Dastardly
(937 posts)Like this
Much of the world continues to grieve the loss to humanity of Ché Guevara, assassinated so young and with so much still to offer, but he is far from the only astonishing person who is missing, and played a role in Celia’s Revolution and her story.
Clip
Reading this story we see precisely why Fidel Castro adored Celia Sánchez and why Ché and Celia were good friends. All three of these revolutionaries were persons of the highest moral character and integrity; deeply human also in their transgressions and imperfections, they were equals of the fiercest sort. There was also a price on all their heads.
http://alicewalkersgarden.com/2013/03/celia-sanchez-and-the-cuban-revolution/
Calling Che a loss to humanity and Che and Fidel persons of the highest moral character and integrity pretty much seal the nutjob label.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the 60's cold war pronunciations are gone at least for most of us
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)respond; but, then I looked at the group title and remembered...nutjob heaven (or whatever it is called in Hebrew)
delrem
(9,688 posts)But I don't come out of a HUAC generation, and I have to say that is a blessing. Nor do I come from a post-HUAC generation, which is even more of a blessing, considering how well those who played along with HUAC prospered.
That was about the first thing I learned about Reagan. Not that he was my favorite grandpa, even before his Alzheimer's glory years. I gather that he was a friend of the court during the HUAC hearings, not doing anybody to the left of him any favors, knowing that to the right of him lay riches. He ended his life as he began it and, for what it was, his life was a success.
I was blessed to be a Canadian whose youth encompassed the leadership of Lester Pearson and Pierre Trudeau. If Canada can continue to give birth to leaders like that, we'll do OK.
Throughout my formative years I was introduced to a pacifist/peacekeeping view of Canada's military role, where foreign leaders like Castro did, in fact, merit applause for introducing universal health/dental-care, universal education, etc., and weren't considered "enemies".
I'll put it another way: Cuba is a lot closer, culturally, to Canada than it is to the USA. As is obvious: Canada is more "socialist" than the USA. *Now we have it* we'll fight to the death to retain universal health care, because it's better than any alternative. I wouldn't be alive, this day, without it. Canadians as a whole are more likely to understand the significance of Venezuela's deals with Cuba to the effect that Venezuela got the benefit of Cuba's universal health care system, complete with trained doctors, in return for energy and cash.
King_David
(14,851 posts)None is Too Many: Canada and the Jews of Europe, 1933-1948
By Irving M. Abella, Harold Troper
Irving Martin Abella, CM FRSC is a Canadian writer, historian and academic. He specializes in the history of the Jews in Canada and the Canadian labour movement Born in Toronto, Ontario, ... Wikipedia
delrem
(9,688 posts)I opened an incognito window to see who "ignored" was, answering my post.
Recall, *you* asked me, more than once, to put you on "ignore". So I did.
I do use the "ignore" function, but sparingly. For example, shira, pelsar, mosby, aren't on my "ignore" list. Just a couple contributors who crossed certain very very red lines (IMO). But, I repeat, you're on the list because you asked me to do it.
FYI, no I haven't read that text. If it's like I expect, it's an example of Canadian antisemitism. We're the country of Ernst fucking Zundel, ffs. Is it your plan to promote the idea that Canada is a hotbed of antisemitism? Go for it. Try to make these fringe players into a massive popular movement.
King_David
(14,851 posts)I ignore ignore lists.
'the book documents the history of the Canadian response to Jewish refugees from 1933'
delrem
(9,688 posts)BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)being called a nut job. The thing about artists is that they see a different world...sort of like shamans. This concept of other world beings was espoused by Christopher Sitchens at least 40 years ago.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 1, 2013, 06:21 AM - Edit history (1)
“I look forward to my first visit to Israel. Music is a universal language that is meant to unify audiences in peace and love, and that is the spirit of our show.”
-Alicia Keys, in reaction to BDS' usual dishonest crap.
http://philassie.blogspot.com/2013/05/alicia-keys-gives-bds-finger-girl-is-on.html
delrem
(9,688 posts)I don't agree with her. This is why
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but I guess it beats doing the X Factor
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That seems kind of strange.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I'm curious. Could you listen and watch the vid from start to end? Do you think you understood the emotion exhibited by the singers/actors? Did you understand the message being delivered to SA apartheid by the lyrics, coupled with the general exhilaration and purposeful solidarity?
Your puzzlement isn't unexpected. I confess, I do hold it somewhat against you that you can't understand.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It's a variety of different rock stars singing, is it not?
Not only can I "listen and watch the vid from start to end" but I remember well when that song came out. I completely supported the message and think if the song had been a bit catchier it could have been as big as We Are The World.
I would think, however, that it is pretty superficial to form opinions based on songs.
delrem
(9,688 posts)clueless.
shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)Area C water and natural resources, including rights to develop resources from the Dead Sea?
Because if it does, you describe a fantasy.
shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)"The words "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" were carefully chosen by me. First of all, it's Palestine, the area of Palestinians. It doesn't refer to Israel. I’ve never and would never imply that Israel is guilty of any form of apartheid in their own country, because Arabs who live inside Israel have the same voting rights and the same citizenship rights as do the Jews who live there."
delrem
(9,688 posts)oberliner's answer includes this:
"the transformation of Israel into “a state of all its citizens” rather than a Jewish state.
That is not the core Zionist belief. In fact, it is the opposite."
Obviously you, and the Hadash party, don't share Jimmy Carter's rosy belief that Israel is a state of all its citizens. So why do you hide behind Carter and pretend otherwise?
The core Zionist belief is that Israel is a Jewish state. Hadash is non-Zionist so they don't share that ideal. A Jewish state does not preclude providing equal rights for all citizens. Perhaps you should have a look at Israel's founding documents?
Here is a relevant passage that may help get you started:
WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the 1st October 1948, the People's Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People's Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called "Israel".
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/declaration%20of%20establishment%20of%20state%20of%20israel.aspx
I hope that is helpful to you.
delrem
(9,688 posts)And I won't be debating the topic with you *again*.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I just wanted to clarify what my position was because you seemed confused about it.
delrem
(9,688 posts)considering the contradictions that you're entangled in.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It is a single consistent position. One shared by former President Carter, among others.
delrem
(9,688 posts)That's a position of intransigent ignorance, either feigned or real.
shira
(30,109 posts)A modern, secular, liberal, progressive democracy that Israel should aspire to.
delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Israel is a western liberal democracy that is imperfect like all others. There is no country in the world free of discrimination or racism. Some countries have better records than others. Israel is better than most IMO.
I ask again for you to name a model secular democracy you believe to be a nation for all its people.
delrem
(9,688 posts)sheee, you guys are the *worst*!
shira
(30,109 posts)They have strong opinions too.
Can't back 'em, but dammit that's what they believe!
delrem
(9,688 posts)what losers.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I have always attempted to engage with you in a polite and respectful way. I have never engaged in name-calling and would respectfully ask you not to use the term "losers" in this context.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)use your imagination and come up with some other kinda of pathetic 6th grade/college insult.
you can do better.
_____
but i shall answer for you since apparently you're not capable, or, your simply dont want to go there:
____
you answer:
israel, like other countries may have foundation documents of equaltiy and it may have a supreme court with various rulings for that equality. However, israel, like other countries has a bureaucracy / govt officials that are in fact biased and use their power not according to the law. Very much like every other democratic country on the face of the earth.
Now the reason i dont want to bring up the fact of imperfect democracies is because i'm not interested in "real life' or its realities, or liberties My goal, here is israels original sin, the sin of its foundation and the sin of its own self-determination.
Israel may or may not be like other countries, it can be the best of the best, but it was born in "original sin" and nothing can remove that stain other then its removal....and that is the end goal, justice as per my own definition.
That is why i cannot say anything positive about israel, why I dont want to hear about arab-israelis prefering to live in israel, etc....anything that weakens the end goal is simply not acceptable and cannot be admitted
.
______
now you can call me a name:
I think: double loser might work..or how about "right wing zionist apartheid apologist RWZAA for short?
hmmm, need some shorter sharper.....how about just RWZ (right wing zionist?)...i got it lets add tea party to it......RWZTP
Right Wing Zionst Tea Partier? what do you think?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"Tag-team swapped" ?? What does that even mean?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Expect things to go into overdrive. Underestimate their power at your peril.
delrem
(9,688 posts)There's nothing "against her" about BDS. If Alicia Keys plays Sun City that's totally up to her. That's what BDS is about. Choice.
To be sure, people who give a damn about the Palestinian population, which is a considerable number of people, might continue attempting to get Alicia onside. But in itself, in essence, that rhetoric can't be construed as being against *her*, nor does it dishonor her decision, whatever it is.
I've no doubt that some "BDSers" might attack Alicia personally, going for the person, going for the easy ad hominem cuts. That kind of behavior is common in *every* group/movement, the more highly common in groups/movements that have highly emotional objects, esp. those that touch on life and death. This is why ad hominem attacks are just sloughed off, as so much water, in I/P. I would never suggest that such behavior defines any movement that deserves the name.
You talk about a "Palestine Lobby", as if the term denotes something similar to AIPAC, JDL, Campus Watch, etc.. That's ridiculous, and you know it.
Popular movements aren't the same thing as *lobbies*. For one thing, a popular movement stands on its own and doesn't appeal for favors.
But yes, oberliner, I think any backward, repressive gov't will underestimate popular will at its peril
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)
aquart
(69,014 posts)Has she asked Egypt to keep the Rafah Gate open?
Heaven forfend the vile Hebrew should taint her fine book. Perhaps she can campaign to delete "Go Down, Moses" from albums of spirituals.
delrem
(9,688 posts)
pansypoo53219
(20,968 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)I guess the divorce wasn't all that amicable...?
Her daughter isn't too thrilled with her, either, FWIW...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Rebecca uses her Mothers sur name in preference to her Fathers which is Leventhal, why is that do you think?
also do you know what the falling out is over?
MADem
(135,425 posts)I guess you'd have to ask her--I'll bet it's in one of her books.
As to why the daughter doesn't like the mother, she says, in essence, that her mother always made her feel like shit, like she was an irritation:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/may/26/familyandrelationships.family2
Does she understand her mother's ambivalence? Walker sighs. "The problems began when I did my first book and really raised the issue of dogma in feminist communities. There was a sense I was undermining her work.
"She once told me that because I am lighter-skinned than her I would be treated better, and then the divorce from my father, I think she felt betrayed by whiteness in a certain kind of way, and I represent that whiteness."
Walker spent a lot of time negotiating the landmines in her relationship with her mother; when she got pregnant, she decided the bond had to be renegotiated or let go: "I hadn't really come to terms with my relationship with my mother. I was really allowing myself to be wounded again and again, and it wasn't until I got pregnant that I decided that was no longer necessary. The idea of my vulnerable, defenceless child seeing his mother destabilised by any kind of relationship forced me to stick up for myself in a way I hadn't been able to."
In an email, Rebecca asked Alice to apologise for what she felt was years of hurt; Rebecca says Alice refused and claimed she was no longer interested in the job of mother. Today they are estranged; Rebecca was told by a cousin he had replaced her in Alice's will. (Interestingly, in the acknowledgements of her new book, Rebecca thanks Alice "for having the courage to live her truth, and by example, teaching me to live mine".)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/29/AR2007032902320.html
Today the two do not speak; Alice Walker has not met her only grandson.
"We are estranged," Rebecca Walker says.
http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2010/09/alice-walkers-estranged-daughter-makes-startling-revelations-about-color-purple-author/
“My mom taught me that children enslave women,” she continued. “I grew up believing that children are millstones around your neck, and the idea that motherhood can make you blissfully happy is a complete fairytale.”
These days, the Yale graduate (born Rebecca Leventhal) is the proud mother of a three and a half year-old son named Tenzin with her partner, Glen. Yet, she holds “The Color Purple” novelist responsible for much of her hardships growing up and is working hard at being a totally different type of mother.
“Ironically, my mother regards herself as a hugely maternal woman. Believing that women are suppressed, she has campaigned for their rights around the world,” she noted.
Everything I've read makes it sound like there's not going to be a "happy families" reconciliation between the two of them any time soon!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as to the rest I'll reserve comment on that for personal reasons
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Here is more information:
Yet when she was seventeen she made a conscious choice "to follow a more matrilineal line" and legally changed her name from Leventhal to Walker. "I changed my name at a time in my life when I was estranged from my father," she says. "I also found out that my grandfather had been extremely abusive to my grandmother and that he arbitrarily disowned my father when he eight years old. It was that whole cutting off thing that we Jews seem to do so well. I have never met my grandfather and I didn't want to be identified with someone who didn't know me or want to know me. I was dealing with the reality of being claimed wholeheartedly by (my father's) side of the family when I was attached in more significant ways to my mother and her family."
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=1047
See my other link as well (provided in response to your post above):
http://mswritersandmusicians.com/writers/rebecca-walker.html
MADem
(135,425 posts)In USA and other western societies it is common to just put the name of the father. In other societies the name of the mother is the predominant one, and in some both names are used, at least in formal settings.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The other posted seemed to wish to impugn this woman's motives by suggesting she made the name change to sell books, which is clearly not the case.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Perhaps the poster is a fan of the mother...?
It's not a zero sum game in my estimation. People can do some great things, like write bestselling novels, and still be lousy at parenthood. And kids have a right to notice if their parents suck.
That's the thing about fame--fans expect the stars to be "perfect in every way." Often, they aren't--they're just schmucks like the rest of us, outside their great talent.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)are we to believ she had not made any type of career choices? Keep in mind too, this would be the Mother she claims rejected her for her light skin as I told oberliner something just does not quite add up here
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Why are you so suspicious?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)rejected her for her lighter skin due to culture?
But she condemns her Mother who had the nerve to ask Alicia Keys not to play Israel, and even though that has nada to with her condemnation of her Mother but she must be a suffering heroine of some sort or at least quite useful for the purpose here with is a gossip rag style condemnation of Alice Walker
MADem
(135,425 posts)I didn't. I stumbled into my career--pure accident. Not everyone has that abiding vision from kindergarten on.
And when I look back at all my friends from back in the day, all those future veterinarians and doctors and test pilots and famous authors and movie/tv stars never got round to doing those jobs. They're doing all right, most of them, but only one guy I went to school with knew his path and stuck to it.
I think, too, that this child had problems well before her senior year in HS--pregnant at 14, using drugs, etc.--and shuffled between two coasts for two years at a time, and left to her own devices at such a young age--I can see why she didn't feel like she was either nurtured or a priority.
She's got as much right to her truth as anyone else.
I just think it's a shame when families can't get along. This one doesn't look like it's ever going to get fixed. Shame for the grandchild.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but she has condemned her mother who had the nerve to ask Alicia Keys not to play Israel and that as we have learned on this gossip rag style smear Alice Walker thread is an unforgivable sin
MADem
(135,425 posts)I don't think this is a question of anyone's "nerve," or "condemnation" or anything like that. I don't think anyone is being smeared, here, either.
I think that Alice's daughter has the right to her own truth. And so does her mother, who hasn't refuted any of the claims that her daughter has made.
I also think that Alice should perhaps not tell people what's going to happen to their "souls" if they don't do what she says, but that's just me. Threats of religious damnation are just not effective, IMO. It's like a fatwah, but without the assassination authorization. I think it's bullying when people do that.
Alicia Keys is a grown woman--she can make her own decisions without threats of religious damnation from Alice Walker, me, you or anyone else.
It's her decision as an artist to make. Perhaps her POV is that she wants to entertain The People--not the Government.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)they are going besides spending Mommy and Daddy's money and 4 years of partying
that does not mean they haven't changed since though
MADem
(135,425 posts)I know my career path had absolutely nothing to do with my college major, and the vast majority of my classmates have the same experience.
The people I met in graduate school were the ones who pretty much had their ducks in a row, career-wise. They were in graduate school to obtain knowledge related to their careers.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)for asking Alicia Keys not to play Israel
you are the one who felt the need to add her daughter to the mix even though their relationship has not one wit to do with this
BTW a couple of questions do you have adult children?
are any of them bi-racial? x
MADem
(135,425 posts)When people tell you that you're going to burn in hell if you do something they don't like, then they open themselves up to criticism, IMO.
Yes and yes, but this isn't about me, so let's not make it "personal" OK?
Again, Ms. Walker has the right to her own truth. So does her mother.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or is that an interpretation?
BTW you did not answer what I asked you, they are very simple questions
MADem
(135,425 posts)I did answer your questions--apparently you were too quick to want to reply to actually read what I wrote--and 'endangering your immortal soul' sounds a lot to my ear (and to the ears of anyone with an essential theological knowledge) like burning in hell.
I hardly think she meant that Jesus or Mohamed or some other deity was going to hurl insults at her immortal soul (Bad soul! Naughty soul!) . Most people know what the reference is, there.
We don't need to reply twice to the same post, either. It creates bifurcated conversations that are irritating and pointless.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but your interpretation comes straight from a Judeo-Christian POV albeit throwing in Islam was a nice touch I'll hand you that
that said I get the impression the elder Ms Walker is a bit more new age/pagan in her beliefs
and your right I missed your answers and I also can truthfully answer yes to both however the to put Ms Walkers the younger's stuff in a nutshell mommy hates me because I'm white daddy hates me because I'm black stuff just strikes a rather questionable chord for me, albeit none of my daughters have ever pulled that one even though our respective families mine and their fathers were less than accepting of them, save my father and that took time, acctually it's more complicated than that but .........
MADem
(135,425 posts)Which is why I keep saying that they are entitled to their own perspectives. Telling the daughter that her feelings aren't valid isn't going to change her feelings. And I must say, a happy, well adjusted, loved and cared-for child, who is getting plenty of parental attention, generally doesn't end up drugged out and knocked up at age 14. That's suggestive of parental neglect, IMO.
Parental neglect can happen for a lot of reasons--people are human, and some humans are lousy parents. They aren't prepared for it, and it's not something one can easily get out of once one is in it, either. It doesn't make them "evil" or "hateful," it just means that they don't have the tools--emotionally, intellectually, or in terms of personal motivation--to do a good job bringing a child up in this world. Some people try, and fail, and some people don't try at all because they lack the will to make the effort. It's no one's "fault." You can try to teach better parenting, but you can't force people to learn the lessons or even buy off on them. It is what it is.
I feel sorry for both of them, and the grandchild who will never know his grandparents.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)decision to take her mother the one she also claims rejected her for her light skin name, are we to believe that her choice of career came after that? I'll hand it to her it's a good story though, even if other claims do not exactly line up
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You don't take her at her word?
Not even sure what you are implying...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)for audience appeal and BTW what I gathered prior to your revelations, the falling out had much more to do with Alice Walkers being too feminist in the way she raised her daughter ie not allowing her to play with dolls or do girlie stuff like that, but your stuff is certainly more sensational and paints Alice Walker as a racist evn where her own child is involved I'll hand it to you for that one as it' certainly in keeping with the witch hunting smear tactics of this thread. I can only imagine what it would have been like if Keys had accepted, but Keys is in come back mode right now and really needs all the exposure she can get
MADem
(135,425 posts)And, truth to tell, it sounds like a shitty family dynamic to me. I have no reason to disbelieve one, or believe the other. I'm just glad they aren't related to ME--I wouldn't want to have to deal with all that drama.
I know a serious drunkard with that same last name. It's not like the name is terribly unique, like Rockefeller, Schwarzenegger or Shakespeare (assuming anyone wanted to project those vibes!), and anyone can "tout" themselves by letting people know who their parents are--if they want to go that way. Or maybe she is coasting on Mother's coat-tails. Or maybe she hates her father...or his last name. Who knows?
As it is, they pretty much back each other up as to the fact of the estrangement--they are two related people who don't like each other very much.
I think life is too short to go through it hating relatives--there are times when it's best to agree to disagree, but not cut off the next generation from their forebears. I think family is important; a child should know where they come from.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)By the time she reached twelfth grade, she had grown as a person. She was doing great in school and was the president of her class. Her look at life changed, and she decided to change her last name to Walker. She wanted a chance to learn more about her black side, a move which brought her closer to her mother. To Rebecca, the name change symbolized “living in the world of non-white skin." It also had a lot to do with not being accepted by most of the relatives on her father’s side of the family, including her father's parents, who disowned him because he married a black woman. Racism has been a big part of Walker's past, and she relates stories of many different types of discrimination through her writing.
http://mswritersandmusicians.com/writers/rebecca-walker.html
MADem
(135,425 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)makes me queasy.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Will she end up playing the concert in Israel or no?
shira
(30,109 posts)Starting at 3:08 and ending with Walker asking (Jewish) reporter if she does what she's doing "for the money"...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That means it's not antisemitic.
