Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumA Double Standard: Alicia Keys And Sanctions On Iran
There seems to be a bit of a double standard in this country on the subject of BDS. For instance, were all supposed to be sneering in triumph over Alicia Keys decision to resist calls to cancel her Tel Aviv concert next month. No sane Israeli can support a boycott of this country, can he? Over what, the occupation? Out of the question.
But at the same time, no sane Israeli is supposed to oppose the UN sanctions on Iran, unless of course he thinks theyre too lenient or that theyre delaying the bombing of that country. For an Israeli to say hes against the sanctions because theyre immoral, because they harm masses of innocent people whos ever heard of such a thing?
This is the Israeli mentality: Sanctions that cause massive, life-threatening medical and food shortages to the citizens of an enemy country are great, but a boycott that denies Alicia Keys local fans the chance to see her is evil. (I know the callousness toward the effect of the Iran sanctions isnt limited to Israel, but that callousness combined with the steaming outrage over the merest symbolic boycott of this country the stone-blind hypocrisy of that reaction is what makes it distinctively Israeli.)
People will say: How can you compare sanctions on Iran to a boycott on Israel Iran is a totalitarian, nightmarish country, an Islamic police state. Thats true, but thats not why the sanctions are in place theyre in place because Iran is en route to getting nuclear weapons, and the nuclear powers on the UN Security Council (egged on by Israel) do not have the right to wreak hell on the lives of Iranians because their regime wants a few nukes, too. Also, while Iran is a monstrous country for anyone who doesnt toe the mullahs line, an incomparably worse violator of human rights than Israel, that doesnt mean Israel is good, or morally immune from boycotts.
Lets take a closer look at the effect of sanctions on Iran. From The Guardian in January:
MORE...
http://972mag.com/a-double-standard-alicia-keys-and-sanctions-on-iran/72623/
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)from the article
albeit I question the "unintended" part
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He really nailed this one!
I mean, I'm sure Iran would love to play sports with Israel. Allow visitors from Israel. If only not for those sanctions!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the sanctions on Iran are harming innocent people, putting their lives at risk via medication shortages among other things
, where as we right now have a thread with 140+comments that is in reality a gossip rag type character assassination of Alice Walker for asking Alicia Keys to not preform in Israel, not once however have I really seen the sanctions on Iran questioned or the fact that create suffering among the civilian populace, that so many of the 'Progressives' here claim to support, but not so much as a blink about the real consequences on the lives of the innocent in Iran or thye effectivness of the sanctions themselves. This is in no small part because it has been catapulted to the public for years tthat sanctions are preferable to what is apparently the only other way to deal with Iran, which is war
oberliner
(58,724 posts)They wouldn't accept help from Israel for various natural disasters, such as earthquakes.
They want nothing to do with any assistance from Israel.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or the only source permitted by the sanctions?
Mosby
(16,299 posts)It's really that simple, I don't understand why so many here want to defend Iran's quest for nukes.
At least Derfner is being honest and admitting that its about nukes not energy, so that's progress I guess.
delrem
(9,688 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)why do you defend cancer patients in Iran dying because of what their government does?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That's a Sean Hannity style question if ever I saw one.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but I guess that's 'different'
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I can't find it. Little help?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Its really that simple, I don't understand why so many here want to defend Iran's quest for nukes.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=42643
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't see the statements as equivalent.
I mean, do you not think Iran has the right to pursue nuclear technology?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)equates to supporting what we are told is Iran's quest for nuclear weapons
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Reasonable point.
Mosby
(16,299 posts)I'm going to go with his judgement.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)to form my own opinions
Mosby
(16,299 posts)Or do you just have issues with the sanctions?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)for what ever reasons then they are not really working all too well are they?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Let's be honest now.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)some of us are indeed capable of thinking independently
aranthus
(3,385 posts)It would be nice if Derfner was doing that, but he isn't. The BDS movement is about ending the Jewish state. The sanctions against Iran are about preventing an extremist regime from obtaining nuclear weapons. They are two very different actions, so of course the response to them is different. Demanding and enforcing Right of Return is heinous. Keeping Iran from having nuclear weapons is not.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and to belabor a point where BDS is concerned few that support it actually aim to end Israel as such, more like the aim is to stymie Greater Israel, the growth of Israel via the militarily conquered lands in the West Bank, but don't let reality stop you
aranthus
(3,385 posts)I have read the article three times, and I suggest that you read it carefully. What Derfner addresses is the "claim" that Iran is monstrous, and Israel isn't, as justification for the supposed double standard. Except that's a fake issue, he's made up to avoid the real issue. He does not address the real issue that BDS is per se monstrous and a fraud, and that the sanctions on Iran are not. We've been over this several times and you are just in denial, but I will say it again. It doesn't matter how many Western intellectuals, artists, college students, etc., think that all they are doing is opposing the Occupation. That's what the Palestinians want them to think. The people who are driving the train are the Palestinian organizers of the BDS movement. It's their movement. At least have enough respect for them to accept that what they say about their movement is what it is.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)aranthus
(3,385 posts)And what he's really saying is that since he can't join onto a movement that would do some good (because of the reality that the other side isn't actually intending good), that he'll join onto a movement that is intended to do something bad, because at least that's doing something. Why not consider the possibility that since the other side isn't intending good, that maybe the Israelis aren't totally to blame, and that there shouldn't be any boycott in the first place? What's going on here is his frustration with the status quo, not a reasonable analysis of why the status quo is so frustrating.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Israel as the party holding the power to choose whether or not continue the occupation and settlements in the West Bank is indeed the responsible party here, there is or should be no question about that, you can spin make excuses till the cows come home but once they are back in their stalls the truth remains the occupation and settlement project continue because Israel wants them to-period
the hysterical claim that BDS wants to destroy Israel is also untrue, some in the BDS movement want 1 state, it is that claim the end of the artificially created and maintained majority in Israel proper that could end nothing more-Israel would remain albeit changed much like the US was changed after the civil rights movement and South Africa was changed after apartheid ended and yes we heard the same iyt will destroy us hysteria about those 2 items too
aranthus
(3,385 posts)They are comments to the article. Now I at least understand your logic, or lack thereof. Further illogic on your part, is to suggest that Israel, being the powerful party, is also the responsible party. That isn't true. Might may not make right, but it also doesn't make wrong.
The claim that BDS is about the destruction of Israel is neither hysterical nor false. It is what the movement says that it is. The fact that some, or even most of the participants in the West only join the movement to end the Occupation means nothing as far as what the movement is about. Useful idiots don't get to drive the train. All they get to do is shovel coal. ending the Jewish state means ending Israel. But you support that, so it's no wonder that you defend BDS against it.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)in the most extreme interpretations possible, sort of like some that believe that all of Israel is just like Moshe Feiglin but Derfner spoke for most who follow BDS, it is not the what is interpreted as the destruction of Israel that is the desired outcome and your rather insulting need to call those that do not fall in line with your beliefs 'useful idiots' does not really help your case much but do wrap yourself in such proclamations,it albeit IMO it is sad and telling that someone in the 21rst century is promoting a state that is meant for only one of it's numerous ethnic groups that too speaks for itself
aranthus
(3,385 posts)So far all you've managed is denial and denigration of the Palestinians who started BDS. The reasons that people join BDS don't define the movement. It's the Palestinians' movement, not theirs. So the fact that some or most BDSers say that they only want an end to the Occupation simply doesn't count. In fact, my disgust is with the so obvious disconnect between what some people claim that they want, and what they have chosen to be a part of. But you know what it's really about, and you support that. I just want people to be honest about what they support.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)this is not denigration it is truth and to state that the people who join BDS do not define the movement is nothing short of ridiculous, you say i"it doesn't count" simply because it does not suit your need, it does count because in a movement like BDS all it has is those that support it, and once a viable Palestinian State is established that support will wither, pure and simple You can mutter on and on about the destruction of Israel by the BDS movement as though it had some military capability of doing that, however that simply comes off as excuse making if not paranoia
what I think you truly fear is that BDS worked against South Africa (which BTW still exists) and could against Israel too, which will also still exist, even in the 'horrible' event that all of those living under its rule military or otherwise will have equal rights
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)I don't think that the point is that Iran wants a few nukes, as if having one isn't bad enough
the point is what Iran is willing or wanting to do with those nukes
and I don't think it's just Israel that doesn't want Iran to possess nuclear weapons. I doubt that too many of its Arab neighbors are too crazy about the thought of them having nukes
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the ones it doesn't have
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)makes getting rid of the nasty Zionists so much easier
http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9104253955
Tehran's provisional Friday Prayers Leader Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami underlined the importance of this year's International Qods Day rallies, and said the revolutionary nations of the region are able to annihilate the Zionist regime.
"The nations of the region, which have toppled dictators, also have the power to annihilate the Zionist regime," Ayatollah Khatami told FNA on Monday.
He stressed that the spread of the Islamic Awakening in the region heralds annihilation of the Zionist regime, and said, "Severance of ties with the Zionist regime has been one of the primary causes and ideals of those countries in which a revolution has started, even though they may have not yet attained their goals."
http://www.jpost.com/Iranian-Threat/News/Khamenei-Zionist-regime-will-disappear-from-map
With the US sending clear public signals to Israel that it is opposed to military action now against Iran, and a cacophonous debate on the matter in Israel, senior Iranian officials continue to threaten Israel with destruction.
Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said Wednesday that he was confident "the fake Zionist (regime) will disappear from the landscape of geography, Iran's Mehr News Agency reported.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/war-with-cancerous-tumor-israel-will-eventually-happen-says-iranian-general/?utm_source=The+Times+of+Israel+Daily+Edition&utm_campaign=81998aae6d-2012_09_22&utm_medium=email
The commander of Irans Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), Gen. Mohammad Ali Jafari, said Saturday that war with Israel will eventually happen, and that the Islamic Republic would destroy the Jewish state.
Speaking at a news conference in Tehran, Jafari said, The war will eventually happen but it is not clear when and where it will take place, according to the semi-official Fars news agency.
This cancerous tumor Israel seeks to launch a war against us, he said, and added, right now they see war as the only method of confrontation.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)what your links go on about is the common stuff about all Arab countries as a group attacking Israel, for me your links make very clear why the US is aiding the Syrian opposition, lets help em kill each other, keep all of Iran's allies in the region tied up and cry salty tears about the poor victims while we're at it too, gotta make it look good after all
in fact the nearest I've seen to Iran saying they would attack Israel was to say they would retaliate if Israel attacks them first but how dare they defend themselves, right?
all in all I support neither side in this word war or pSyrian proxy war what I do support is the millions of innocent victims of the power gamers
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)I doubt too many rational people would mind seeing their government taken out and replaced by one a bit more sane
If it's Israel that does it, good
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I would rather they get voted out, I know that doesn't have quite the visceral punch though does it?
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)Iran is a theocracy and all candidates have to be approved by the ruling religious leaders
the people have very few choices-someone who's conservative; someone who is just a little bit less conservative; someone who is more conservative
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)dlwickham
(3,316 posts)I'll throw the ball back in your court
Iran has a history of funding terrorist activities and demonstrating that they are willing to do whatever they think is okay to target their enemies
how much money and arms have they sent to terrorist groups that target Israel?
are they to be trusted with a means to build weapons that will truly meet their goal of destroying Israel?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)exactly
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I've asked you twice now and all you respond with is an attempt to distract and redirect
Mosby
(16,299 posts)is through armed revolution.
I think the Iranian regime is to strong for it to be successful though.
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)not sure how much clearer you need that to be