Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPrime Minister's Office recruiting students to wage online hasbara battle
The Prime Minister's Office is planning to form, in collaboration with the National Union of Israeli Students, "covert units" within Israel's seven universities that will engage in online public diplomacy (hasbara).
The students participating in the project, who would post on social media networks such as Facebook and Twitter on Israel’s behalf, will be part of the public diplomacy arm of the PMO, but would not identify themselves as official government representatives.
About a week ago, the outgoing deputy-director general of the Public Diplomacy and Diaspora Affairs Ministry, Daniel Seaman, sent a document to the government tender committee seeking to exempt the national student union from being chosen as the partner in the project through a public bidding process.
The PMO is looking to invest close to NIS 3 million to recruit, organize and fund the activities of hundreds of university students, as part of the country’s public diplomacy effort.
The Public Diplomacy Ministry is being closed and its staff are being integrated into the national public diplomacy unit in the Prime Minister’s Office. Seaman, who previously served as head of the Government Press Office and also ran as a candidate in the Likud party primaries, is expected to assume a new position shortly - that of head of an office with the very official sounding name of “the interactive media unit.” In practice, this is the entity that is expected to coordinate the public diplomacy efforts of the Prime Minister’s Office on the Internet and social networks.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.541142
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oberliner
(58,724 posts)He puts his foot in his mouth on a daily basis. His efforts will most likely have the opposite of the desired effect.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)I have an issue with that fact that American citizens might be used in this way to spread the propaganda of a foreign nation. Americans attend these schools as well. Hopefully the authority only chooses students that have only Israeli citizenship.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Very bizarre that you would say you are "not sure who that is" in relation to a person who is identified, quoted, and discussed in an article that you yourself have posted.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)If you research him, I'm sure you will be disgusted by what you find.
shira
(30,109 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)did you know some consider Palestinians living in a Palestinian city in Palestine to be settlers ?
MarkLaw
(204 posts)If you ask anyone to clarify this they usually just scream "Anti-Semite" which always struck me as odd considering Arabs are in fact the largest Semitic population on the planet.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Just FYI.
The word "anti-Semite" does not actually originate from within the English language. Its first usage was by Willem Marr, a mid-ninteenth century anti-semite who wanted a more scientific sounding term than "Judenraas" (Jew hatred) to use in his academic papers and came up with "anti-Semitisme".
This was translated into English towards the end of the nineteenth century as "anti-Semitism"- and the first English dictionary entry of the word, the Websters 1913 edition, defines "anti-semitism" as "hatred of the Jews and their works".
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 14, 2013, 01:37 PM - Edit history (1)
...when the 1967 war occurred?
How are they not Jordanians?
Here's a good question for you, from yesterday:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113445741#post17
How is it that a Palestinian, born in Jordan with Jordanian citizenship (that was subsequently stripped away), living in the West Bank, under a PA elected government, born of a Jordanian mother and father, and a Jordanian grandfather, (all of whom held passports and IDs identifying them as citizens of Jordan prior to 1988), is ENTITLED to return to Israel as a citizen despite the fact that neither himself nor any of his ancestors were ever israeli citizens?
MarkLaw
(204 posts)The only people who want to return to Palestine are people WHO WERE BORN THERE. They fled because radical European immigrants decided that the bible dictate to kill all the Arabs was a just cause. The European immigrants began massacres and land theft(jaffe, burning Palestinian olive trees, demolishing homes etc of the NATIVE PALESTINIANS) the massacres scared the hell out of the natives.
EVER HEARD OF REFUGEES?
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 14, 2013, 04:48 PM - Edit history (1)
1. Palestinians in the W.Bank were given Jordanian citizenship b/w 1948-67. When refugees become citizens of other countries, they are no longer considered refugees, right? Refugees in Gaza still live in what was considered historic Palestine 100 years ago. The vast majority of "refugees" actually live within historic Palestine. At best, they're displaced and living only a few miles from their homes in Israel (speaking of the 30,000 original refugees and not their descendants). Hell, I'll even wager that you're in favor of atrocious refugee apartheid conditions within their camps throughout the Arab mideast...
2. Who were these radical European immigrants? Holocaust survivors? Jews escaping pogroms? Jews who legally purchased land and should have known better than to escape from Poland, Russia, and Germany? Those radicals who had no historic homeland, no cultural and religious ties, no common language, no customs that they shared with fellow Jews in Israel?
3. You do realize Jews are also natives to the land and therefore indigenous?
4. You speak of land theft. What makes any part of the West Bank exclusively Palestinian? Oh wait- you probably believe all Israel is stolen land, right? Sheesh. That Jews have no right as a people/nation to self-determination. Or that the green line of 1948 is an actual border despite all Arab states denying that when they signed the armistice agreement?
Your sources are shit. Your knowledge of I/P should embarass you. There should be a law about know-nothing, obnoxious, sanctimonious posers.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Tell us again how Nahum Shahaf argues that Mohammed al Durrah was really Andy Kaufman, that one cracks me up every time.
Well, so are Christians. Christians make up roughly a third of the world population. Think the southern Levant has sitting room for 2.3 billion people? They all have legitimate claim, by your argument.
Also, 87% of Indonesians are, by your logic, indigenous to Saudi Arabia. Wait no. Islam, like Christianity, is a divergent Jewish sect... so they all get the southern Levant, too So that adds another 22% of the world's population.
Getting kind of crowded in there, isn't it?
shira
(30,109 posts)Why do you associate me with Shahaf when there are plenty of other credible sources out there who have let the evidence speak for itself? Like the 3 French Journalists, Richard Landes, Esther Shapira? They're not crazy...
Christians only have religious ties to the land, unlike Jews, who not only have religious ties there but also a common and unique ancestry, folklore, history, language, and culture that goes back to the last sovereign power that ruled there (again, the Jews). There aren't any other people or nation on the planet like that.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)He's the point of origination, the source from which the spring flows. Anyway, I've already hammered you into the ground over this, I don't care for another thirty-post off-topic argument over it. You think al Durrah was a Highlander, I think you're nuts, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on these points. 
And as I pointed out elsewhere... your assertion about Jews is simply untrue. Unless of course, you're (once again) trying to limit who is and is not a Jew? 'Cause there's multiple ethnicities, several races, a plethora of languages, no shortage of religious variations, and more cultural diversity than you can probably comprehend all beneath the banner of "Jews." In fact the only commonality is that they hold the Tanakh as a foundational religious document. That is, the only binding element is their religion. You really seem to be holding to the idea that the only "real" Jews are orthodox Ashkenazim. I'm sure this is unintentional, but it still makes your arguments very bad.
We've also been over the history of the region - particularly the aspects of conversions, the famllacies of the diaspora myth, and the tenuous nature of the ties between Judaism of 1st century AD Iudaea and the Judaism of 19th-century Northern Europe. You seem to have the retention abilities of a goose with a head wound.
And at all comes back to your simply barbarous belief that when white people want something they're justified in killing people and taking it.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 15, 2013, 08:02 AM - Edit history (3)
...and they all say France24 was making shit up to support their contention that Israel shot the boy. They say Enderlin lied when he claimed he cut out the boy's agony from the footage. They had ZILCH to do with Shahaf. France24's news director (Arlette Chabot) admitted it was impossible for the IDF to have shot the boy. France24, however, sticks to their original October 2000 report. That report puts the blame on the IDF, as if they deliberately murdered the boy. You know damned well that's wrong.
All Jews, with few exceptions, trace their roots back to their Orthodox grandparents or great-grandparents. There's even evidence of common genetic profiles among Jews all over the world...
(M.F. Hammer, Proc. Nat'l Academy of Science, May 9, 2000)
Not to mention a common history, culture, folklore, language. All traits of a national entity or people. Not just a religion. How many times do you have to be schooled on this?
And at all comes back to your simply barbarous belief that when white people want something they're justified in killing people and taking it.
Patently false and you should apologize. Where do you get that shit from?
Israelis aren't even white. More than half are dark skinned or black, which isn't surprising considering Jews share similar DNA with Arabs, all originating from basically the same area. Love the way you and your types categorize Jews as White Europeans when Jews there were treated like garbage and weren't considered for several millenia to be "white".
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Now you want to argue genetics? I think we've covered this territory too... including this part that you reprise:
I've actually pointed this very thing out a few times, Shira. Remember, how I sat you down, pulled the sharpie marker out of your mouth, and explained to you that the people we refer to as "Palestinian Arabs" today are descended from the people we would have called "Israelites" two thousand years ago?
And I don't argue with the findings of the study. But I do note that it's comparing genes carried on the Y chromosome. Now when I read your posts, it seems Jewish tradition and practice and belief fluctuates more in a single paragraph than it has in three thousand years prior... but I was under the impression that Jewish lineage is traditionally traced maternally? I would have to imagine that there aren't many mothers in the world who have a Y chromosome. At least, not outside the monotremes.
Seriously if you want to talk about genetics, we can have that discussion. But I'm going to warn you, it's not going to help your crusade very much. What I'm certain we'll discover is that not only are many Jews and Palestinian Arabs descended from this population... but also a great many people well outside those boundaries as well. We will find that genetic pool sloshing over the sides all over the place. Why? Because I'm dead certain that none of the genes on that Y chromosome creates an unbreakable predisposition to "keeping it in the tribe." We will find descendants of ancient Jews up and down Africa, throughout the Middle East and Africa, all the way up in Central Asia and China. If you want to make an argument for possession rights on the basis of ancestry, then friend... we're still going to be crowding that place up.
Not to mention a common history, culture, folklore, language.
You believe that Jews from Ethiopia have the same history culture, folklore and language as Jews from Kaifeng, who have the same history, culture, folklore, and language as Jews from Brooklyn who have the same history, culture, folklore, and language as Jews from Yemen?
Let me guess, they're all the same as the history, culture, folklore, and language as Theodore Herzl and Chaim Weizmann? See, this is what i'm talking about when I said
And at all comes back to your simply barbarous belief that when white people want something they're justified in killing people and taking it.
You've already demonstrated your vociferous support for coercive application of long-term birth control to Ethiopian Jews, in order to - in your own fucking words - "protect Israel's Jewish character." In facgt I recall you standing in support of the tel Aviv race riots... You're here now essentially whitewashing the diversity of Jews in the world in order to squeeze them into the Zionist narrative... which incidentally never once considered Jews of anywhere but Europe until they showed up on Israel's doorstep. It's becoming very obvious to me that you only consider Ashkenazim to be authentic Jews, and everyone else are at best tag-alongs you can occasionally flap around to show how diverse Israel is (while ignoring how little political power most of these people have, their economic status, the cultural bleaching they suffer, the repression of their religious traditions within Israel in favor of European Orthodoxy.
Your entire act here is to pronounce the superior rights of Jews (at least, Ashkenazi orthodox Jews) over the nasty, vile "cancers" of the Arabs and, when the occasion calls, blacks. You endlessly defend any act of barbarism or depravity, so long as it is perpetrated by one of the people you idolize, while (rightly) condemning barbarisms from the other side and (wrongly) using them as justification for further brutality. All the while you prance along proclaiming how it's the right of Israeli Jews to take what they want, when they want, where they want, because they have a Y chromosome marker shared by some guy who successfully squirted semen in the first century AD. or because they practice a nominally similar religion. Or because Arabs are animals anyway. or because of the black helicopters, I have trouble keeping up with your bullshit justifications for mayhem. Whatever the color the people you support end up being, the bald fact remains that you have consistently argued for pillage rights, you have argued that their victims are subhuman, and you never... ever, ever take a break from your endless parade of justifications and dehumanization.
So if you're honestly expecting an apology, then I just have to stand by my earlier statement of you being the local expert on crazy. it's not going to happen.
shira
(30,109 posts)As to genetics, of course Jews share DNA traits with Arabs. But there's also DNA shared within Jewish groups that Arabs do not share. I agree that this doesn't apply to all Jews throughout the diaspora, but definitely the vast majority. Also, being considered Jewish maternally is a religious precept and has nothing to do with DNA. You having a brain fart today or what?
The rest of your post is all bullshit. I challenge you to support ANY of those contentions. Of course, I recall that you believe all Zionists are racist, savage neanderthals who you slander with the most vulgar, false accusations. Which is about as bigoted as it gets considering what you're doing is little different than the Elders of Zion smear or Holocaust denial, all of which shares the same intent - to demonize, dehumanize, and harm.
I can't figure out whether you're "religious" in the sense that you believe what you believe and that's that (willfully ignorant) or just willfully bigoted, knowing full well who and what you are. I suspect a combination of the two...
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I mean you DO buy into David Icke, right? if not, why not, you slurp at Shahaf's tough
Well, I'm just trying to figure out why you're arguing culture and stuff one moment, then genetics on the other. The two just don't overlap very well. And I recall you denying that there were ancestries shared there, the last time we discussed this. What made you change your mind? Is it just that this time you thought you could "win"?
No, I believe Zionism is a racist philosophy. While I admit I haven't met a Zionist who didn't express bigotry against Arabs and Muslims, I suppose it's possible. I just don't think it's very likely. From within the number I've had the ill fortune to speak with, a pretty good number have been consistently nasty people all around. I don't think that's a particular trait of Zionism, I just figure that the philosophy's open-door policy on racism - including its broad allowance for antisemitism, so long as it's those Jews - attracts nasty people. You know, like John Hagee and David Horowitz.
I have cone to the conclusion, after what is it now, two years? of dealing with you, that you are indeed a really nasty piece of work. Unfortunately for me you're also a very prolific poster, so if I slap you on ignore, pretty much all I get out of I/P is the occasional lonely post by Eugene... which will then vanish after you reply to whatever I might say (DU's ignore system is kinda dumb, I think)
And your response to me pointing this out, and why I have this opinion of you? You compare it to Holocaust denial. Holy shit, you sure think a lot of yourself! Speaking against you is just like taking a shit in Yad Vashem, innit? Woo, I didn't know I was speaking to the incarnated avatar of over six million souls, Shira, you could have warned a guy. I mean that's important information to withhold!
You know, I had figured that, even with all that other stuff, you were at least above graverobbing the Holocaust. I suppose I was wrong. I shouldn't be surprised, but honestly I thought you had at least some limit, that somewhere you had a rigid boundary of ethics. I guess not.
shira
(30,109 posts)And still you go on with Shahaf, despite the French Journalists and the News Editor at France24, all claiming it was impossible for the IDF to shoot the boy. They probably never heard of Shahaf, but you know HOW they came to their conclusions? They actually watched the original uncut footage & considered the evidence! Imagine that if you can. I know it's tough for religious fanatics to have their views challenged, but try...
I'm arguing not only genetics but all other traits of nationhood as well. Not applicable to all Jews of the diaspora, but definitely the vast majority. Why is this all so difficult for you? I know you're an intelligent person, but WTF?
The problem with your criticism of Zionists is that you do the same as any Jew hater has done for the past 2000 years. You put us all in the same box, attributing nasty prejudicial views to all of us that we simply do not hold. As if we're all monolithic in our views, all vile. The Kahanists do that with the Palestinians. You do it with the Zionists, go figure. Worse, you falsely attribute the most heinous of crimes to us and say we all support outright theft, murder, and displacement of innocents. And we're fucking liars if we deny it. It's unbelievable.
-Martin Luther King
You disagree with that Liberal Zionist?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Yeah, I go on with Shahaf, because I think it's hilarious that you're still lapping at his puddle of piddle.
...Except you brought up genetics when I pointed out the broad diversity among Jews with regards to culture, history, tradition, folklore, language, and even religious practices. That is, your argument was "yes, but look; genetics!" Now you're back to arguing for the monolithic sameness of Jews... and ironically accusing me of doing that. That's just weird.
While I'm flattered that you regard me as intelligent, I hope you understand if I have difficulty returning the compliment after this clunker.
When do Palestinians choose to be Palestinian? Seriously, what's the average age for a person to go, "You know what, from now on, I'm going to be a Palestinian!" Seven? Twelve? Eighteen, maybe? And of course this kid can be from literally anywhere, any origin right? Some Aleut kid in Nome decides, "Today, I become a Palestinian!" - and then maybe a few years down the line, he looks back at being a Palestinian and goes "you know what? I don't want to be a Palestinian anymore," and he stops being a Palestinian.
Is that how it works?
You're trying to conflate a cultural identity with a political ideology. That's really dumb. And it will not stop being dumb, no matter how often you try. I suppose I'm also a bigot because I hold that libertarianism is politicized sociopathy.
Well, you do keep defending it. I'm playing it as it lands, Shira. You do support theft - you're a proponent of Israel staking brand new claims in the west bank, you're an advocate for Israel keeping the ones it's already struck. That. Is. Theft. And you advocate it. Murder? well, I haven't ever seen you express sadness at Israel raining hell down on the heads of Gazans or Lebanese, and you're so very happy that nine Turks were killed by Israel, and - while I haven't seen I from you - I've seen no end of Zionists celebrating "pancake day" in 'honor' or Rachel Corrie's death. Displacements of innocents? You're a Nakba denialist and hold that whatever Israel did, it is justified, and that the resultant demographic shift (that you claim never happened, being a Nakba denialist) needs to be eternally enshrined and protected.
As I said, I don't know about all Zionists. I haven't met all of them. I do know that the political philosophy calls for these sort of things though. So someone who's against all that is probably a bad Zionist, just as a communist who opposes redistribution of wealth is a bad communist. Oh, there I go, being bigoted against communism.
You know that even CAMERA admits that quotation is a hoax, right? Man. Is gullibility another trait I should tack onto zionists?
shira
(30,109 posts)I knew nothing of the man before you guys brought it up. I still don't know much about him, but thanks for telling me what I think and believe. Neat how you can just know what Zionist like me think....
Once again, most (not all) Jews throughout the world share the same traits, from cultural to genetics. Not all. How am I wrong?
When someone makes a sweeping, vile slanderous accusation against all Palestinians - that's bigoted. Same goes for those who do that to Zionists. How am I wrong?
As to Zionist beliefs you deem reprehensible, let's start with one example where you equate legitimate Israeli self-defense to murder. In your view, Israel has no right to defend itself militarily. Even if they have a perfect record and never kill civilians, it's still wrong in your view due to the very POSSIBILITY that one civilian could get harmed (not even killed). This is what you deem racist. That Israel, even if it had a perfect record - which it does not - is racist for "gambling" on the lives of Palestinian innocents who could get harmed in Israel's attempt at self-defense. Total bullshit.
And CAMERA says the MLK quote is legit. The letter he allegedly wrote, however, is a hoax. Two different things. So MLK wasn't a liberal, right?
MarkLaw
(204 posts)That is why people had Jordanian citizenship. Israel does the same thing. It largely calls the Palestinian natives Israelis if they live on Land Israel now occupies.
2. The European Immigrants were Europeans that had been persecuted in Europe, they also come from Russia and the U.S. Some Jews have even recently immigrated from Africa. These immigrants have settled on land Palestinians were ejected from. The Settlers are religious radicals. They believe they have a religious right to occupy the land, and the claims of the Natives are void. These Immigrants historic homelands were Europe, Russia, the United States or Africa. The ethnically European, Russian, African and American Jews shared customs with the holy land to the same degree as their neighbors who also adhered to an Abrahamic faith. Like European Christians, the Europeans Jews only tie to the holy land was through religious mythology, stories and customs.
http://www.ebony.com/news-views/the-forced-sterilization-of-ethiopian-jewish-women-785 -----ITS UNFORTUNATE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS GIVE MONEY TO COUNTRIES WITH POLICIES LIKE THIS.
3>There are Christians/Muslims/Jews Native to Palestine, Iraq, Iran and Africa, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. Largely they are genetically dissimilar from their neighboring population. Historically their numbers were 1 to 2 percent of the population, never coming close to a majority.
4.European/Russian/America/African Jews only claim to Palestine is based on the Torah. A holy book is hardly justification for a religious population to claim land thousands of miles away. Yes Immigrants in Palestine have largely allocated most of the native populations land through warfare and imprisonment. NO armistice or nation has the power to take land away from a native population.
Jaffa was farmed by Palestinians lonngggg before the Israel became a Nation. It was where some of the tastiest oranges were. grown. This Prime farming land was allocated to settlers, and the remaining citizens were abused and terrorized by Radical Settlers.
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/01/more-than-1000-jaffa-residents-protest-jewish-settlement-project-being-built-in-the-heart-of-the-city.html
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You live in the United States, right?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you wish to return what are called values to the level of the 17th-early 20th century, otherwise we have made strides in those area's but perhaps you wish to cling to this lone one as it does help Israel's case does it not?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)so a country can steal the land from the natives on the condition that the values of the country are 21 first century?
(this is going to be fun)
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It has happened, hasn't it?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)prior to 1988 Palestinian who lived in the West Bank did have Jordanian citizenship, however in 1988 Jordan ceded the West Bank, which BTW was not considered part of modern day Israel, to the Palestinians
Now when you hysterically claim that Palestinian refugees were never Israeli citizens why is that ? Could it be because they were either physically driven out or fled in fear of their lives when Israel was founded in 1948 ?
word salad, slight of hand, playing games with dates, or dazzling with BS all could be said to describe that comment
shira
(30,109 posts)If anything, they are now Jordanian refugees.
And Jordan had nothing to cede to the Palestinians as their occupation/annexing was illegal.
=========
Riddle me this one:
Would you have preferred Israel to have not occupied the territories at all and just given it back to Jordan and Egypt? Yes or No.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and a yes or no demand but yes Israel should not have occupied territory that does not belong to it, nor should it be sending it's citizens to 'settle' it
shira
(30,109 posts)...more Arab land for their Arab state?
No, of course not. But that's what you're implying.
And you're wrong about Jerusalem being slated to become part of an Arab state. You know damned well how that was to be designated according to the Partition Plan.
Lastly, had Israel never occupied the territories, there wouldn't be any call for a Palestinian state in those territories. They would be Jordanian and Egyptian property. The Palestinians wouldn't be calling for self-determination there. So you prefer they remain occupied by Jordan and Egypt. NICE.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you already admitted here that you didn't support a 2 state solution, maybe someday but not now
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=45479
and yes in the UN partition the West Bank was part of an unnamed Arab state or a state where Arabs would live and seeing as how Jordan ceded the West Bank to the Palestinians 25 years ago you really have no point
shira
(30,109 posts)I'm not claiming Israeli exclusivity to any part of the W.Bank like you are WRT Palestinians. You're claiming Israel has no rights at all to Jerusalem - that only the Palestinians do. And as you know, the Partition Plan didn't set aside Jerusalem for either of the 2 peoples.
How did Jordan have a right to cede E. Jerusalem, for example, to the Palestinians exclusively?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as to how East Jerusalem came to be in Jordanian hands it may have had something to do with Israeli's murdering the UN negotiator don't ya think? Oh and as 'punishment' Israel later elected one of the men who murdered the UN negotiator Prime Minister
shira
(30,109 posts)...under International trust, somehow became exclusively a Palestinian city because of an assassination.
Do you just make up this shit as you go along?
Where in the history books or in the holy name of wikipedia do you find such crap?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and when it comes to BS please show us where I've said EJ is a Palestinian only city
shira
(30,109 posts)Just as legit as the Palestinians?
Come on, be straight with me for once.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)unless of you can't for some reason, maybe like that I've never said any such thing
and if you can not be honest about such a thing why should anything else you claim be believed?
shira
(30,109 posts)....to the Palestinians. What the hell am I to make of that other than that you support E.J. being Palestinian and NOT Israeli?
Holy shit!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so shira once again you can't you make unfounded claims about what people say or think, I saw where someone called another person a " vicious liar" because of doing something similar, it was in the comment on +972 I believe, perhaps it rings a bell
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Where do you draw the line between the two?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)IMO East Jerusalem should be under joint or international control
shira
(30,109 posts)Only Jews are settlers, right?
Not Israelis in general?
Just making sure...
MarkLaw
(204 posts)European immigrants are the settlers, Palestinians are the NATIVES.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)the druze and bedioun and christians have more rights than the arab muslims who came later, after the jews were kicked out....
so really the druze and bedioun who have accepted israeli citizenship have the "more rights" whereas the arab muslim fall in line after them....
and of course the jews were there before the druze, bedouin, christians which means they have the "super" rights. Unless of course there is a statue of limitations on self-determination
is there?
____
stick around, ignorance combined with emotional outbursts is alway fun to play with.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Occupied the Area before the concept of a Hebrew identity. The Hebrews, archeologically speaking, are relatively new. When Pagan Arabs adopted monotheism, a belief they encountered in Iran, Judaism was founded. The new monotheists considered themselves superior. They disregarded claims made by anyone who had not adopted the new faith. Earth was the domain of God, and their God was the only true god, and his monotheistic followers were the only people of any importance to their God.
The idea of "super rights" is largely drawn from Orthodox religious texts. It is not based on archeological evidence, but a 3300yo fundamentalist xenophobic notion Arab royals adopted following their conversion to monotheism.
shira
(30,109 posts)...with common history, customs, language, and beliefs like the Jews - who were the last people within Israel that had sovereign rule there.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)First off, "Arab" is something of a neologism... It's a post-Islam term, derived to unite dozens of divergent ethnic groups and cultures by language. You would think perhaps, "unite them by religion," but religion's one of the most mutable ideas humans have - Islam had already split into Sunni and Shia by this point, to say nothing of the dozens of minor sects, mixed faiths, and who knows what else. They all used koranic Arabic though, so that was a uniting factor. Point is, there were no "Arabs" in the time scale you're considering.
Next, I'm not sure labeling the Natufans as Africans makes a lick of sense. They were a paleolithic people, and we don't know how human migrations were going at the time. You sure as hell wouldn't catch me wagering on their ethnicity, 'cause holy shit, 12,500 BCE, man. Trying to tack a modern ethnic label to people who existed just a thousand years ago is tricky enough, trying to do it for someone who lived so long ago that mammoth-related fatalities were a figure in their demographics is a little bit nuts.
Third, the Philistines were not Greek. Again this is sort of like labeling the Natufans as African. There are hypotheses that they were related to Indo-European peoples, but lacking any fragment of their language it's impossible to truly tell. If they were, it stands to reason they were part of the Anatolian branch of that group, along with the Hittites, Assyrians, Lydians, and Cimmerians.
I don't think I need to point out that "Iran" makes no damn sense in these contexts? Or that even if it did, the Persian peoples at the time were quite polytheist , practicing a pantheon religion not too dissimilar from that of other Indo-European peoples. And between them and the ahem, "Arabs" you're talking about were the Sumerians, Akkadians, and Babylonians, linguistic and cultural isolates who, in terms of religion actually had more in common with Hinduism than anything their neighbors had. This is because a sort of "proto-hindusism" existed along the stretch of southern Asia , probably beginning in the mesolithic, and was interrupted by the migrations of central Asian people who had their own culture and religion and such.
Which brings us to the origins of Judaism. And you're all kinds of wrong (not that some other people posting here would be any more correct, mind.) Judaism does not hail from Persian religion, for the reasons I just pointed out. Nor for that matter does it hail from the Sumerian religion, despite the bible's assertion that Abraham is from Ur. Sumerian religion had a much more pantheistic worldview, where gods existed as parts of other gods, land features and idols all had their own particular god, conversations could be held with these gods, and that time was cyclical - that the gods regularly fought, destroyed, and remade the world. It DID have a deity hierarchy and a standing priesthood, and so wasn't animism... But it was nothing like even ancient Judaism, and so was very unlikely to be the precursor to that religion.
Rather, Judaism probably springs out of some cultural well in Northern Africa, within the radius of Egypt (Libya and Kush being possibilities in addition to Khem). Religiously speaking it has more in common with the religions of the Mediterranean, with their pantheons, distant gods, prayer-and-sacrifice methods of deity communication, and the idea that the world was created once and will end once. This is backed by the fact that in no point of history, even as far back as has been explored, did the ancient Hebrews utilize Akkadian. Rather they always stuck to some variety of Afro-Semitic language which if the name doesn't give it away is primarily an African language family, with outliers in the near east and Red Sea (including the Hejaz, from which Arabic springs)
It reads to me almost as if you're cliff noting "Zeitgeist." Don't do that. It's bad for your brain.
shira
(30,109 posts)
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Whether or not the territory is occupied by settlers/colonists.
shira
(30,109 posts)...not "Israelis". The problem with the settlements is that Jews have no business living in parts of Jerusalem, Hebron, or Jericho. Israeli Arabs fine, but Jews not so much....
Smelly bigoted POV there.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Natives.
Was nothing learned from the Holocaust. Genocide and a xenophobic religious claim to land is just Hitler 2.0 Playing out in Palestine.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Wow. Startling stuff.
Killed millions of them and they still didn't learn anything!
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Germany, England and America have supplied arms used against the Native populations in Palestine, throughout Northern Africa, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain etc. Arms fuel historical and religious conflicts that are ages old. If we learned from WW2 we would stop flooding territories in dispute with weapons.
The genocide in Palestine, Rwanda, Sudan, Somalia, Libya, Afghanistan, the wars in Iraq, Iran, etc could all have been prevented if we remembered lessons from WW2.
Race and Religion are no reason to fight. Colonization, imprisonment, genocide must be fought by American democratic forces, not fueled.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or maybe a lesson is that no matter how much Jews integrate into a community, there is still an underlying current of distrust that can manifest itself in horrible ways?
These lessons solidify in the minds of many Jews the importance of Israel.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)The poor are the most targeted group in the United States. I think we can all agree the poor, throughout history, have suffered more than any one religious group. The poor, while oppressed, remained integrated into a society that looked down upon them.
Being oppressed is not what solidifies the Importance of Israel in the minds of Jews.
A few passages from the Torah, reading during childhood that they are Gods "chosen"
religious egoism is like a drug) is why kids grow up believing that Israel is significant to their religion.
shira
(30,109 posts)If you knew anything about Israel, you'd know it's a very liberal secular society that doesn't really dig the Torah as much as you think they do. Jews of all stripes, denominations, and colors go there for various reasons, not just because they feel they're "chosen". How vulgar, but kind of you to rip that mask off so that we know where you're coming from.
I'll test you, regarding those thieving white Europeans.
It's 1942, you're in charge of who gets into Palestine. Boats filled with Jews are being turned back everywhere throughout Europe. They're not getting into the US either. They're begging to enter Palestine. What do you do? Do you welcome these white European thieves and murderers or send them back to the ovens?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=46384
are you thinking of the Strauma incident? Better question had you even heard of it until now?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/struma.html
shira
(30,109 posts)And go figure, it was 1942.
Of course, when asked if you were in charge of Palestine back then would you take in Europe's Jews or send them back to the ovens, your answer was the latter. You'd have been no different than the nice white Europeans from 71 years ago. Nice liberal values...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 16, 2013, 02:05 AM - Edit history (1)
after it was refused to debark in Turkey
With regard to Jews attempting to escapes Europe had you been speaking of numerous incidents in the 1930's you would have been correct however in 1942 it was a single incident, which was my point, but I see you made yours, which is hurl insults and accusations @ anyone believing the Palestinians deserve a state now
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 15, 2013, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)
Israeli Society isn't liberal. Bigotry and xenophobia are endemic. Israel is full of Yeshivas, like Madrasas, where children receive a religious education. The ultra Orthodox have even been known to spit on girls that attend school. Women are regularly harassed at the Wailing wall.
This Jewish nation attracts settlers because of the "Israel" that they read about in the Torah as young Children. The often fictional colorful battles and victories read by Jewish children creates the illusion they live in a world where everything is "them" VS "Us"
It's a very divisive, abusive and xenophobic thing to teach young children. And this is why the European Jews identified with Israel. The stories they grew up with molded their mind and formed their morals. Israel also attracts Christian and Muslim tourists for similar religious reasons.
There had also been talks about settling in Africa, this obviously never happened.
It's 1942, you're in charge of who gets into Palestine. Boats filled with Jews are being turned back everywhere throughout Europe. They're not getting into the US either. They're begging to enter Palestine. What do you do? Do you welcome these white European thieves and murderers or send them back to the ovens?
Around 1942 Europeans showed up and used force to colonize a generally peaceful, diverse Palestine. The world was fighting war's on every front. No attention could be focused on Palestine to make sure Human Rights were being protected.
Should the horrors of WW2 have continued with fleeing Palestinian natives boarding a boat and colonizing someone else's land?
shira
(30,109 posts)It's like you're starting from step 1 here.
Israeli society is arguably more liberal than the USA on many issues like gay rights, death penalty, and healthcare. It started out socialist and still is (moreso than the USA), much more self critical media, very liberal court system, far better on environmental issues, leaders in stem cell research, state subsidized public college tuition, and better labor unions. Israel also doesn't send troops overseas to fight foreign wars, and then kill over a million when its borders aren't even threatened. Considering the threats Israel has been up against the past 70 years, they rank quite well amongst western progressive democracies. If we could REALLY compare Israel to western democracies, we'd have to compare Israel to other countries facing similar threats. Ones that have been attacked. How did they react? Better than Israel or worse....?
And as I thought, if you were in charge you would have sent the WW2 era Jews back on boats to the death camps. Nice. Teach me more about your liberal values.
FTR, there were no Jews emigrating to Palestine in 1942. It's called the White Paper. Europe's real whites made sure the Jews had nowhere to go. You'd have been no different. And no Palestinian rights were being violated in 1942...
Half of Israel's population is Mizrahi (mideast) Jews from Arab nations. Are they colonists too?
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Following the election of Obama Israeli/American student shared their racist view of President Obama.
http://www.tu.tv/videos/feeling-the-hate-in-jerusalem-on-eve-of
Racism in Israel towards non-white Jews is not subtle. There is abundant evidence of blatant institutionalized racism in schools, hospitals, housing associations and within the workforce. This racism and open discrimination also pervade Israeli society at a grassroots level. From a bus driver in 2009 refusing to let a black woman on the bus, saying: 'I don't allow Kushim on board. Were there buses in Ethiopia? In Ethiopia you didn't even have shoes and here you do, so why don't you walk?';7 to reports of settlers becoming hostile if arrested by a black IDF soldier; Israeli children throwing stones at Ethiopian soldiers; and ethnic slurs being directed at Ethiopians, including frequent reports of jeers such as, 'You are just nig%^ers'.8
A spokesperson for the Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews (IAEJ), Avi Maspin, said that:
racism is a word that I have feared using until now, because I did not believe that it could exist in Israel in 2007, but the time has come to call a spade a spade. Israeli society is profoundly infected by racism and unfortunately there is no suitable punishment for racism in Israel.9
According to a report in Ynet News, 'The facts seem to show that these attitudes are not confined to specific areas of the country but rather represent a collective phenomenon within Israeli society.'10 The racism that has infected many in Israel can be seen in YouTube videos such as 'South Tel Aviv Is on Fire'.
Racism in Israel
At the headquarters for the struggle for social equality for Jewish Ethiopians there are plans to call the attention of Israeli society to the problem of racism and other negative social attitudes towards Ethiopian immigrants.
Gadi Yevrakan, the director of the struggle, said that he is "no longer surprised by anything, there is no difference between the neo-Nazis…and all those that discriminate against Jews from Ethiopia."
The Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews (IAEJ) intends to send letters to the Attorney General requesting that he check up on local authorities in their handling of absorption of Ethiopian Jews.
Avi Maspin, a spokesman for IAEJ, said that "racism is a word that I have feared using until now, because I did not believe that it could exist in Israel in 2007, but the time has come to call a spade a spade. Israeli society is profoundly infected by racism and unfortunately there is no suitable punishment for racism in Israel."
Israel's High Court has narrowly upheld a law denying Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to Israeli citizens the right to live in the country with their spouses.
The judges voted by six to five not to cancel a four-year-old amendment to the Citizenship Law which outlaws "family unification" in Israel between Palestinians and Arab citizens of Israel.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/racist-marriage-law-upheld-by-israel-478291.html
The Israeli government has tacitly acknowledged injecting Ethiopian women immigrating to Israel with a long-acting contraceptive without their knowledge, telling them they couldn’t come into the country if they didn’t take the shot, which the women thought was a vaccination.
Many have called the practice appallingly racist.
The shots are being blamed for a 50 percent drop in the birth rate in Israel’s Ethiopian community over the past decade.
http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/01/29/israel-acknowledges-shameful-contraceptive-shots-given-to-ethiopian-jews/
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 15, 2013, 10:46 PM - Edit history (2)
...who'd have sent Jews seeking refuge back to Hitler's death camps isn't the best example of someone who projects progressive/liberal values.
Israeli
(4,485 posts)Your amazing .... you slam us and slander us every chance you get ... and then you use us as your defense propaganda .
I award you 5 stars for being the biggest American hasbarist its ever been my misfortune to cross paths with .
shira
(30,109 posts)...that welcomes non-religious, pork eating, Sabbath violating Jews like myself?
Israeli
(4,485 posts)that I was born yesterday shira ..... you are classic " Woman in Green " material
ref : http://www.womeningreen.org/
you are not fooling me for one second moteck .
shira
(30,109 posts)And I'd never heard of "Women in Green" before. I'm not a Kahanist or the Jewish equivalent of a KKK or Muslim Brotherhood member.
Tell me, do you feel you have political anti-zionist allies here who consider you a genuinely good person when...
a) ...they support the "legitimate" Palestinian murder of innocent Jewish children and grandparents?
b) ...they would have sent Jews back to Germany rather than take them into Palestine 70 years ago?
c) ...they don't believe Jews have any right to live east of the green line, even as Palestinian citizens?
Don't forget to respond to this.
Israeli
(4,485 posts)and Shulamit Aloni is a liar ..... and you would vote Meretz ....IF you lived here
what was it you said about Machsomwatch again ???
and Gush Shalom ???????????
and Gideon Levy ???????????????????
and all the others to numerous to mention .
Did I respond OK enough for you ??
shira
(30,109 posts)1. Israel is not a country that welcomes atheist, pork-eating, sabbath violating Jews? Our new friend here, Mark, thinks not.
2. Do you believe anti-zionists consider you their ally and a good Israeli when...
a) ...they support the "legitimate" Palestinian murder of innocent Jewish children and grandparents?
b) ...they would have sent Jews back to Germany rather than take them into Palestine 70 years ago?
c) ...they don't believe Jews have any right to live east of the green line, even as Palestinian citizens?
Maybe these questions are too difficult for you. Are you embarassed to answer? Do you fear alienating leftist political allies who see you as a white European thieving, murderous colonist who'd be better off dropping dead?
Israeli
(4,485 posts)that I'm obliged to answer any of your BS shira ?
what gets your panties in a twist is your problem .
Honestly .... you only care about my country because you are Jewish ... you are motivated by your religion ..... your religion means nada to me .
shira
(30,109 posts)You're viewed here as one of those white European colonists whose family had no business going to Palestine in the 1st place.
Do you not consider yourself a Jew at all?
Israeli
(4,485 posts)I define myself as Israeli shira ...
you really have no idea what post-zionism is all about , do you American .
shira
(30,109 posts)...who has no right to be where you are in any 2 state solution. You're a legit target of Hamas to them.
With allies like that, you don't need enemies.
Israeli
(4,485 posts)not mine .
A question for you ...
If you care that much why have you not made aliyah ?
Put your tachet where your mouth is ....until then your nothing to me except a loud mouthed American that does not have a clue .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i believe you made yourself very clear with shiras question about the jews escaping europe to go to Palestine....with you, the moral decision was that it was more "moral" to round up the jews, gas them, shoot them, bury them alive by the millions rather than have them create a democracy in an occupied land....(I heard this before by others as well, so your not alone)
your morality places land ownership not just over human lives but over democracy as well. Clearly in your racist view point, racially pure dictatorships are far better than the mixed mongral breeds of a western democracy.
did you say your on the political right or left?.....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and do you feel that Jews living in the US are outsiders?
shira
(30,109 posts)Guess where they're from? Do they have no right to live in E.Jerusalem, Hebron, Jericho?
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Racism in Israel towards non-white Jews is not subtle. There is abundant evidence of blatant institutionalised racism in schools, hospitals, housing associations and within the workforce. This racism and open discrimination also pervade Israeli society at a grassroots level. From a bus driver in 2009 refusing to let a black woman on the bus, saying: 'I don't allow Kushim [derogatory term for black people] on board. Were there buses in Ethiopia? In Ethiopia you didn't even have shoes and here you do, so why don't you walk?';7 to reports of settlers becoming hostile if arrested by a black IDF soldier; Israeli children throwing stones at Ethiopian soldiers; and ethnic slurs being directed at Ethiopians, including frequent reports of jeers such as, 'You are just nig%^ers'.8
A spokesperson for the Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews (IAEJ), Avi Maspin, said that:
racism is a word that I have feared using until now, because I did not believe that it could exist in Israel in 2007, but the time has come to call a spade a spade. Israeli society is profoundly infected by racism and unfortunately there is no suitable punishment for racism in Israel.9
According to a report in Ynet News, 'The facts seem to show that these attitudes are not confined to specific areas of the country but rather represent a collective phenomenon within Israeli society.'10 The racism that has infected many in Israel can be seen in YouTube videos such as 'South Tel Aviv Is on Fire'.
At the headquarters for the struggle for social equality for Jewish Ethiopians there are plans to call the attention of Israeli society to the problem of racism and other negative social attitudes towards Ethiopian immigrants.
Gadi Yevrakan, the director of the struggle, said that he is "no longer surprised by anything, there is no difference between the neo-Nazis…and all those that discriminate against Jews from Ethiopia."
The Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews (IAEJ) intends to send letters to the Attorney General requesting that he check up on local authorities in their handling of absorption of Ethiopian Jews.
Avi Maspin, a spokesman for IAEJ, said that "racism is a word that I have feared using until now, because I did not believe that it could exist in Israel in 2007, but the time has come to call a spade a spade. Israeli society is profoundly infected by racism and unfortunately there is no suitable punishment for racism in Israel."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3480010,00.html
Israel's High Court has narrowly upheld a law denying Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to Israeli citizens the right to live in the country with their spouses.
The judges voted by six to five not to cancel a four-year-old amendment to the Citizenship Law which outlaws "family unification" in Israel between Palestinians and Arab citizens of Israel.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/racist-marriage-law-upheld-by-israel-478291.html
Many have called the practice appallingly racist.
The shots are being blamed for a 50 percent drop in the birth rate in Israel’s Ethiopian community over the past decade.
http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/01/29/israel-acknowledges-shameful-contraceptive-shots-given-to-ethiopian-jews/
shira
(30,109 posts)....tend to vote generally for Likud. Look up who the Mizrahi are and you'll find they're the dark skinned ones, not the whites of Israel. They're more "rightwing" than the whites there.
And of course there's racism and everything else that's bad in Israel, just like any country. But no worse. And actually better, considering Israel's been at war with relentless enemies the past 90 years.
Response to shira (Reply #89)
azurnoir This message was self-deleted by its author.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)just ask them....nor are the Bediouin....infact they will tell you that its the arabs that are settlers since they settled in after they were already there..
so shouldnt you be complaining about the invading arabs?
tsk tsk tsk..i sense an anti druze/bediouin racist here who believes that the Bedoiun do not have the right to their land....
___
and the idea of "super rights" is drawn from me making fun of the concept of 'self determination" and your obvious racism of putting together Druze, Bedouin, Christians and arab muslim as one large identity called Palestinian.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Your the one placing everyone right to the land IN A RELIGIOUS/RACIST context. Native's are Natives. European Aren't Native. By the way the Bediouin and Druze largely consider their land to be occupied by European immigrants as well. The Idea of European Immigrants telling everyone else they are now citizens of a Jewish nation is a violation of religious rights. Religious states should not exists in modern times, creating a new one doesn't help at all.
You didn't come up with the idea of "super rights'. It is an old xenophobic notion of supremacy.
The idea of "super rights" is largely drawn from Orthodox religious texts. It is not based on archeological evidence, but a 3300yo fundamentalist xenophobic notion Arab royals adopted following their conversion to monotheism(Judaism).
pelsar
(12,283 posts)so are you now going to tell the real natives of the land (druze and bediouin) that they are wrong to see the arab muslims as late comers and settlers.
WOW....we have a "white european" telling the natives of the land, what they should believe and what they should not believe.
guess what that makes you?.... ...you have the same mentality as the white colonial supremist.
so tell us, why is it that you can tell the real natives what to believe and what not to believe? and why should they even listen to you?
MarkLaw
(204 posts)I don't subscribe to anyone's claims that aren't based in archeological fact. All these people are native. Some of them converted to converted to different religious branches. No branch is superior to another branch, despite what they may claim.
guess what that makes you?.... ...you have the same mentality as the white colonial supremist.
so tell us, why is it that you can tell the real natives what to believe and what not to believe? and why should they even listen to you?
No that's exactly what I want to end. European settlers do not have superior status to Native Palestinians.
You can see an example of this mentality in the clip below. A European Settler attacks a human rights Activist.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i simply asked you why you dont respect what the druze and bedoiuin believe...that that arabs muslims are the settlers...and you didnt answer...you wrote something about archelogoy which has nothing to do what the locals believe.
i said you have that europrian mentality that states you KNOW BETTER than the locals.
why do you believe you know more than the locals.....why dont you respect the Druze and Bedouin, the real natives.
Plus they dont see themselves as Palestenians...so your also insulting the natives as well.
___
your see them as nothing more than "dumb natives" who dont know anything....just like all the colonialist, same racist mentality.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)to each other. They largely draw distinctions between themselves along religious lines. I don't subscribe to anyone's claims that aren't based in archeological fact, religious myth is largely xenophobic and historically inaccurate. All these groups are native to land Israel now claims.
The only colonizers that feel they are superior are the Illegal settlers.
European settlers do not have superior status to Natives.
You can see an example of this mentality in the clip below. A European Settler attacks a human rights Activist.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 15, 2013, 11:58 PM - Edit history (1)
you clearly think they are "dumb natives" and that they dont even understand that they are Palestenians....
They are ethnicially similar to each other
They dont see your "european scientific version of archological truth" as part of their own history and culture.......and how do your react to that? You dismiss their beliefs, their culture by saying: I don't subscribe to anyone's claim
bascially you ignore them as dumb natives........
and you can't even see how much you and the colonialist of the 1800's are one and the same...who also used "western science" to back up and prove their own theories.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)a few non-Jewish Israeli citizens are allowed to live? How gracious of you
shira
(30,109 posts)So the Arabs in those settlements who have Israeli citizenship are settlers, just like the Jews? Or are only Jews settlers, never Arabs?
If you are trying to remain consistent, then you should state that all ISRAELIS (both Jews and Arabs) who live over the green line are SETTLERS and therefore YES, Arabs can be settlers too.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I was having fun but you not so much
shira
(30,109 posts)And last I looked, I'm still waiting for responses from you on that thread.
Guess you weren't having as much fun there as you're letting on...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but yes I had fun you admitted that
you use the Jews in favor of Israeli as a political device
you tried to say that Hindu's and Muslims in India were somehow comparable to Israel /Palestine an exchange where BTW what could appear to be a bit of Islamophoba was revealed
you attempted to claim that Palestinians lived or could live in places such as Itamar
you attempted to claim that Palestinians lived in Ariel and went to the Israeli univerity there, when indeed it was 600 out 14,000 students that are Israeli Arab citizens that attend Ariel and no proof that they actually live there
we could go on I'm sure
shira
(30,109 posts)...and that yes, they are settlements:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113445479#post214
You claim that Abbas only has it in against Israelis, not Jews. But here you are reluctant to admit that Israelis (Arab ones) can be settlers. Only Jews can be. You're twisting yourself like a pretzel now that you're reluctant to define any ISRAELI (including Arabs) as settlers.
Israel's Arabs can live in any settlement they wish. There's no law preventing them. You realize America has some towns and cities that aren't racially diverse at all, right? Does that mean America is as "racist" and "apartheid" as Israel?
And of course the I/P conflict is religious and a war against the Jews. This isn't about Israelis, as the Arab ones aren't considered the enemy and are NOT the deliberate targets of Palestinian terrorists. Who are you trying to kid?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and you're going to again claim that Israeli Arabs can live in Itamar,
so how come none do?
shira
(30,109 posts)Why can't you answer that?
And no one is stopping Arabs from moving to Itamar. They probably don't want to move there for the same reason Israeli Jews may not want to live in Arab towns within Israel like Umm al-Fahm.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but I see your still attempting to score points on Israel allowing it''s non-Jewish citizens to live in certain area's of East Jerusalem
shira
(30,109 posts)They could sue, go to the press, and make life miserable for the Itamarians if they so wished.
You still haven't answered, so I'm assuming you NOW believe Israel's Arabs are settlers when they choose to live amongst Jews in their "Jew-only" settlements.
Thanks for that.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)in other words none.
shira
(30,109 posts)Which ones have gone to the press, attempted to sue...?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)ya think maybe possibly might?
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)acting as guards vwhile they attack villages, throw rocks at children, attack and burn olive groves .....the settlers however have the IDF for that
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I'll be honest i'm not sure why Azurnoir's tip-toing here, but... yeah. If you're an Israeli national and you're snatching land from the West Bank or East Jerusalem, it doesn't much matter if you're Jew, Arab, Chamorro, whatever, you fall neatly within the "settler" category.
Now, if Palestine decides to make an exception for Arab settlers, I guess that's Palestine's business - it's their territory, after all. Just as it's their call if they want to cede these places in exchange for something, or offer citizenship to everyone, or whatever. But legally and logically, such people are colonists in someone else's land.
shira
(30,109 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)any "tiptoeing" was due to the fact that the poster you're addressing has and will use the term Palestinians to describe both Palestinians in Palestine and non-Jewish Israeli Arabs, it's a means of clouding the issue, it started on another thread when she claimed that 'Palestinians' were allowed to live in Pisgat Ze'ev, outside of that you''re quite correct
delrem
(9,688 posts)
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)In a campaign to improve its image abroad, the Israeli government plans to provide scholarships to hundreds of students at its seven universities in exchange for their making pro-Israel Facebook posts and tweets to foreign audiences.
The students making the posts will not reveal online that they are funded by the Israeli government, according to correspondence about the plan revealed in the Haaretz newspaper.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office, which will oversee the programme, confirmed its launch and wrote that its aim was to “strengthen Israeli public diplomacy and make it fit the changes in the means of information consumption”.
The government’s hand is to be invisible to the foreign audiences. Daniel Seaman, the official who has been planning the effort, wrote in a letter on 5 August to a body authorising government projects that “the idea requires not making the role of the state stand out and therefore it is necessary to adhere to great involvement of the students themselves, without political linkage or affiliation”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html
shira
(30,109 posts)henank
(800 posts)The deputy ambassador said there was no substance to the story - it was just an ‘idea’ by Danny Seaman, who it seems now been suspended from his role in the Ministry.
What an idiotic idea!
I'll try and find a link.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)The program is active and thriving.
Hearsay is often wrong. If you trust the embassy to be honest, you might want to call them yourself
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)In one of his posts published by Haaretz newspaper, Seaman said he was "sick" of "self-righteous" Japanese and international commemorations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims.
"Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the consequence of Japanese aggression. You reap what you sow," he said.
Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Ilana Stein said Japan's embassy sought clarification about the remark. Stein said it did not reflect Israel's official position.
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2021614769_apmlisraelsocialmedia.html