Yom Kippur, the unnecessary war?

[bemildred]

Maale Gamla, Israel — Was the Yom Kippur War, which began 40 years ago this month, inevitable? Documents newly released from the Israeli state archives and their integration with American archival material suggest that it wasn't. The records show that in the months leading up to the conflict, Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, who presented herself as a tireless seeker of peace, was resolute in rebuffing the many peace overtures sent her way by Egyptian President Anwar Sadat.

Meir's rejection of the Egyptian approaches carried a heavy price. On Oct. 6, 1973, a deeply frustrated Sadat launched a war intended to motivate a diplomatic process that would return to Egypt the land Israel had seized from it during the Six-Day War in 1967.

The 1973 war inflicted heavy casualties on both sides, with thousands killed and many more wounded. Though the Israeli military regrouped and launched a strong counterattack, Sadat achieved his goal of bringing Israel to the negotiating table. In 1979, after the Camp David accords, the two states signed a peace treaty in which Israel agreed to withdraw from all the Egyptian land it seized in 1967 — something Meir had considered unacceptable.

Israeli documentation of the period leading up to the war reveals that there was a secret channel between Henry Kissinger, then national security advisor to President Richard Nixon, and Meir, which usually involved Israeli ambassadors Yitzhak Rabin and Simcha Dinitz acting as intermediaries. Recently declassified telegrams report on secret discussions between the ambassadors and Kissinger during the prewar period, and they give lie to Meir's public insistence that her chief goal was to bring peace and security to the Middle East. In her back-channel communications with Kissinger, Meir spoke decisively and aggressively to foil any secret initiative for peace that would require she recognize Egyptian sovereignty over Sinai.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentary/la-oe-kipnis-golda-meier-kissinger-20131010,0,4503580.story

[Jefferson23]

1. When did Israel ever believe there was an unnecessary war?

That would be news to me.

[oberliner]

5. Perfect comment

Really helps give a sense of where you are coming from.

[Jefferson23]

6. lol, attempted branding by oberliner. n/t

[oberliner]

14. No brand needed

The comment speaks for itself. I hope more people read it!

[Jefferson23]

15. You thought so, and made the attempt...lol. Took you someting close to

48 hours or so to respond too. I hope you read Israel's history too one day, other
than Michael Oren's version, and the like.

[oberliner]

18. I thought it was a perfect comment

I think people should read it if they want to get a sense of where you are coming from. I am not sure what the branding idea is that you are thinking is happening. If I tried to do that, I didn't mean to.

What book about Israel's history would you recommend?

[Jefferson23]

19. And you're still attempting, lol.

I would need to know what you've read thus far before I could make
recommendations for you.

[oberliner]

21. I'm officially lost

Not sure what I'm attempting to do anymore. But whatever it is, it's not intentional.

Anyway, I have never read any books on Israel's history, so fire away with some recommendations.

[Jefferson23]

23. Your intentions were clear in your first post, oberliner.

You've never read any books on Israel's history...interesting.
Yet your posting history is primarily in this I/P group for years..interesting.

What sources have you relied on in the past and rely on presently regarding
Israel's history?

[oberliner]

27. Clearly not

I did try to explain myself, but no soap apparently. Oh well.

With respect to particular sources regarding Israel's history, I have read through things like the UN debate transcripts from the time and other news sources and primary documents that are searchable online.

If you'd like to suggest a book, I'd appreciate it.

[Jefferson23]

28. Regarding sources, you're rather vague, and primary documents,,but no author names.

You don't read books, so that won't work to offer you.

How did you get the UN debate transcripts, that would be interesting.

[oberliner]

31. You said you would recommend some books

I have now three times asked you to please go ahead and do so. I'm not understanding why you haven't. Can you give a title or two?

[Jefferson23]

34. Recommending books after you made clear you don't read books..that

makes no sense. You also refrain from naming any of your sources you rely on and your
decision to do so is questionable, at best.

My suggestion is that you reconsider and begin reading books, and choose an author you
are interested in on the subject of Israel.

One author I suggest is Edward Said, to start.

[oberliner]

36. Ok

Thanks anyway.

[Jefferson23]

37. My pleasure.

If you like, you can review Edward Said, here:

Edward Said was University Professor of English and Comparative Literature at Columbia University and the author of more than twenty books. A leading literary critic, public intellectual, and passionate advocate for the Palestinian cause, he was born in Jerusalem in 1935 and died in New York in 2003.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/palestine/resources/edwardsaid.html

[azurnoir]

2. thanks intereesting article

I found this part of particular note though

Two days later, Kissinger informed Meir of Sadat's offer: "It is possible to get changes in the Egyptian position, but … I would try only if you and I agree." Meir replied: "We will just not go along with this." Later, she repeated that Israel would not be able to return to the 1967 borders in Sinai, which she deemed indefensible. She was facing an election at the end of October 1973, and she preferred the possibility of war to peace negotiations.

aren't we hearing about more "indefensible" borders these days?

[bemildred]

3. One hardly knows where to start.

But yes, some of that seems new, the vigor with which peace was being fended off, or perhaps what is new is that it's better documented than before. I continue to be surprised how much of international politics seems to consist precisely in fending off peace in the most disingenuous ways one can manage. And those are the "realists".

[azurnoir]

29. I find the whole concept of

necessary vs unnecessary wars a bit disturbing, was 1967 a necessary war? I suppose it depends on the aggressors gaining their objective and in this case they did and at the present moment are using the very same excuses as 40 yeard ago to avoid peace

[delrem]

30. "necessary vs unnecessary wars" is a nice intro to "preemptive defensive war".

It introduces just the right range of ambiguity to allow spinners/propagandists/warmongers free reign to invent whatever "future pretext" that they want.

I don't like that the US is learning from this, and leading from this kind of unsound premise. The whole "war on terror" depends on it. It isn't how I imagined the "free world" would deal with the 21st century, but that's the way it is.

[bemildred]

35. "We're an empire now, and we make our own reality".

Remember that? This is what that pissant was talking about then, they think they can rule the world with bullshit, and forever too. A large portion of our economy (99% of the media, 99% of politics, large portions of the IT business, "insurance" in all its forms, "defense", and more recently our food supply and health care) consists in selling crap at a high price.

I can remember when this country invented and made the best and cheapest stuff in the world, we were the gold standard. I can remember when we thought it was important to do a good job, not just take a whack at it and see what happens or bullshit your way through in time for happy hour.

[ColesCountyDem]

4. Kissinger bluntly told Prime Minister Meir that Israel 'must absorb the first blow'.

Nixon was up to his a** in alligators, with Watergate, and mad at the world. He was furious with BOTH Prime Minister Meir and President Sadat for creating a foreign-policy crisis/nightmare, even a behind-the-scenes one, while he was dealing with his own personal political crisis. In one meeting with Kissinger prior to the outbreak of the war, Nixon told Kissinger to tell Prime Minister Meir that in the event of an generalized outbreak of hostilities, Israel "must absorb the first blow", or it could expect NO help from the United States.

I think back to those days, and in light of this newly-released information, I am again reminded of what a truly EVIL man Nixon was! He and Kissinger each bear at least as much responsibility for this war, as do either Prime Minister Meir or President Sadat!

[shaayecanaan]

7. I'm not sure what your point is...

What you have just referenced was longstanding American policy, what was then called "friendly impartiality".

Meir asked Kissinger after the event what would have happened if Israel had started the war with Egypt in 1973. Kissinger said: "You would not have gotten so much as a nail."

Likewise, when Israel invaded Egypt in 1956 with British and French assistance, Eisenhower refused to lift a finger until they had withdrawn from Egyptian territory.

It doesn't change the fact one bit that Sadat had put numerous peace offers to Golda Meir prior to 1973 but had been rebuffed each time.

[bemildred]

8. Everybody agrees about Kissinger though.

There should be a Kissinger Prize, like the Sakharov Prize, but the Kissinger Prize would be for most dishonest dissembling to prevent a peace agreement and get a war started, annually. April Glaspie comes to mind immediately, and a joint award for the Neocons and their Middle Eastern debacle, and our buddy Netanyahu could win every year, but nobody quite stands up to Kissinger and Nixon and the Paris Peace Babble-a-thon, they set the high water mark.

We have a couple good candidates this year too, a very competitive race.

[ColesCountyDem]

9. My point was very, very simple.

My point was that Nixon was an evil swine who might've prevented the war, but chose not to do so.

[shaayecanaan]

10. Then the Democrats were evil with him...

There was widespread bipartisan consensus at the time that if Israel started a war with Egypt as they did in 1956, then they would be on their own.

[ColesCountyDem]

26. I surrender.

I made my point, and did so logically.

Have a nice day.

[oberliner]

11. Golda Meir offered Egypt most of Sinai for peace before 1973 war

Several months before the 1973 Yom Kippur War, then-Israeli prime minister Golda Meir used West German diplomatic channels to offer Egypt most of the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for peace, according to documents released Sunday by the state archives.

During a series of meetings with West German chancellor Willy Brandt, who was making a historic visit to Israel in early June 1973, Meir offered ”to meet with them (the Egyptians) for the first personal contact, anywhere, any time and at any level” and asked Brandt to convey to the Egyptians her desire to meet as well as Israel’s willingness to cede most of the Sinai in a peace treaty with Egypt.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/golda-meir-offered-egypt-part-of-sinai-for-peace/

[shaayecanaan]

12. The same way that Israel is willing to return "most" of the West Bank...

She wasn't willing to cede any of the Sinai settlements.

[oberliner]

13. Right

But you wrote: "Sadat had put numerous peace offers to Golda Meir prior to 1973 but had been rebuffed each time"

The truth is that Meir also put a peace offer to Sadat prior to 1973 but was rebuffed as well.

Sadat categorically said in 1972 that he would not negotiate in spite of the fact that Israel expressed a willingness and desire for direct face-to-face talks.

[shaayecanaan]

32. Then her posturing was no different from Netanyahu's...

She put an offer to them, but it was an offer that contained no real concessions on Israel's behalf, would see most of the Sinai territory of commercial significant remain in Israel's possession, and had no real prospect of ever being accepted by the Egyptians.

By contrast, Sadat's peace offer (normalisation in return for all of the Sinai being returned to Egypt) was in fact accepted by Israel at Camp David, contrary to the implicit suggestion contained in this howler of a sentence from your article:-

Israel retained possession of the Sinai, but later, in 1978, Egypt entered into a deal resembling Meir’s proposal as a result of the Camp David Accords, and over the next few years the entire Sinai was returned to Egypt.

cough, cough.

Presumably, Meir wanted to appear genuine and probably was under some pressure to resolve the situation from Western trading interests that wanted the Suez Canal reopened.

[oberliner]

33. Right

But she was rebuffed by Sadat. You may think Sadat was justified in doing so, but it is not fair to say that Sadat reached out to Meir for peace and Meir rebuffed him and not also say that Meir did reach out to Sadat too and he rebuffed her.

[shira]

16. So much for the garbage in the OP. Nice research. n/t

[Shaktimaan]

17. So...

Since Meir didn't accept sadat's demands in full prior to the start of any negotiations, the fault of that war is hers?

Which also proves that the aim of the war was to get the Israelis to the negotiating table?

That's ludicrous. Like, really, REALLY stupid. "Sadat launched a war to further his attempts at making peace." That's the line we're expected to swallow?

OK, meanwhile in reality, we know that Meir was very willing to negotiate for peace with Egypt and had actually been the one to try and start talks via w. Germany but wasn't willing to accept Sadat's all or nothing demands ahead of time. Israel was obviously willing to negotiate away the Sinai, as it did just that in 79. But we shouldn't take Sadat's demands to a guaranteed outcome as his price for showing up to the peace table as a firm offer of peace that Meir rebuffed.

As seen in her letter to Brandt in 71...

http://www.archives.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/0754ED6A-34F0-45F9-B3B7-6FCF1FE14D52/0/Brandt23.pdf

[bemildred]

22. That's not the argument being made.

The argument being made runs like this:

"Sadat launched the war to further his attempts to get the Sinai back, AND since after the war he got the Sinai back, THEN the war could (and should) have been avoided by just negotiating the return of the Sinai to Egypt in the first place."

Plus it would have looked better that way, peace-lovingness-wise.

[Shaktimaan]

24. That's not what the article says.

Though the Israeli military regrouped and launched a strong counterattack, Sadat achieved his goal of bringing Israel to the negotiating table.

Israel was always willing to negotiate. It just wouldn't agree to give back the entire Sinai before even sitting down. In my links it's made clear that Meir made every attempt to negotiate for peace with Sadat. It was Egypt who refused to negotiate. Meir only refused to guarantee the terms Sadat demanded as a price for sitting down. She never refused to have talks, rather she was the one who attempted to start them through WG.

This evidence is hardly enough to say that Meir should have acted differently. It is hardly a firm peace offering. We have no idea what would have been different had she agreed to it.

[bemildred]

25. I think that whenever you find yourself negotiating about not negotiating,

or engaging in pre-negotiation negotiations, you are already in grave danger of not making sense, and ought to be careful.

[Shaktimaan]

20. More

During a series of meetings with West German chancellor Willy Brandt, who was making a historic visit to Israel in early June 1973, Meir offered ”to meet with them (the Egyptians) for the first personal contact, anywhere, any time and at any level” and asked Brandt to convey to the Egyptians her desire to meet as well as Israel’s willingness to cede most of the Sinai in a peace treaty with Egypt.

Israel captured the peninsula from Egypt in the 1967 Six Day War. According to the records, Meir was not willing to return completely to the 1967 lines in the event of a handover.

“He can tell Sadat that he, Brandt, is convinced that we truly want peace. That we don’t want all of Sinai, or half of Sinai, or the major part of Sinai. Brandt can make it clear to Sadat that we do not request that he begin negotiations in public, and that we are prepared to begin secret negotiations, etc.,” Meir said in a later meeting.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/golda-meir-offered-egypt-part-of-sinai-for-peace/